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Hey Raesh,
Can you give us a better idea of what sorts of changes we can expect to the spell book?
After looking through all the spell lists, my only major concern is the number of cyclics we have.
Thanks,
GENT
We're still doing major work on the Bard spells (And by "we" I mean "Ricinus has pitched in and is ripping through them at an amazing rate"), so things are a little bit in flux. Aside from some major bug fixing (Like actually making beneficial area spells work the way they should), and the same general clean up all spells are getting (slot cost adjustments, a few changes to how we handle buffs and so forth) a few of the major changes you can expect are:
Aether Wolves - This is now a single target debuff. Instead of draining mana it reduces mana regen on player targets.
Nexus - This is no longer a cyclic spell. It now acts as an area mana booster with some... quirks I'll let you see. (Ricinus went above and beyond on this one).
Abandon Heart - This is a cyclic AoE TM spell that hits fatigue and spirit.
Resonance - Weapon buff spells like this are going to seem some changes, but the main thing is the (somewhat broken) bonding feature is going to go away.
Desert Maelstrom - This spell is currently doing way too much (Much like Abandon Heart), but we haven't yet nailed down exactly what it will be doing.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Aether Wolves - This is now a single target debuff. Instead of draining mana it reduces mana regen on player targets.
Nexus - This is no longer a cyclic spell. It now acts as an area mana booster with some... quirks I'll let you see. (Ricinus went above and beyond on this one).
Abandon Heart - This is a cyclic AoE TM spell that hits fatigue and spirit.
Resonance - Weapon buff spells like this are going to seem some changes, but the main thing is the (somewhat broken) bonding feature is going to go away.
Desert Maelstrom - This spell is currently doing way too much (Much like Abandon Heart), but we haven't yet nailed down exactly what it will be doing.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
I have a few questions about these changes.
>Aether Wolves - This is now a single target debuff. Instead of draining mana it reduces mana regen on player targets.
Is this going to be Cyclic still? And if so, will it work rooms away? How do diminishing returns work for cyclic debils? Seems if normal diminishing returns effect it. I can think of better ways to do this.
>Abandon Heart - This is a cyclic AoE TM spell that hits fatigue and spirit.
Is the fatigue and spirit damage being increased? They were very small hits previously, and I thought this was because of the other effects going on also.
>Resonance - Weapon buff spells like this are going to seem some changes, but the main thing is the (somewhat broken) bonding feature is going to go away.
The bonding feature of this could be made to match the bonding feature of the paladin spell. There bond seems to be working just fine right? Or are they losing it also?
Thanks ahead of time for your answers!
-Zerreck
>>Is this going to be Cyclic still?
Yes.
>>And if so, will it work rooms away?
No.
>>How do diminishing returns work for cyclic debils?
The same as any other diminishing returns.
>>Abandon Heart - This is a cyclic AoE TM spell that hits fatigue and spirit.
The fatigue is entirely changing mechanics, but the spirit hit remains the same (And can be very devastating).
>>The bonding feature of this could be made to match the bonding feature of the paladin spell.
Could it? Yes. Will it be? No. The decision to remove the bonding from the spell has very little to do with mechanical needs.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Yes.
>>And if so, will it work rooms away?
No.
>>How do diminishing returns work for cyclic debils?
The same as any other diminishing returns.
>>Abandon Heart - This is a cyclic AoE TM spell that hits fatigue and spirit.
The fatigue is entirely changing mechanics, but the spirit hit remains the same (And can be very devastating).
>>The bonding feature of this could be made to match the bonding feature of the paladin spell.
Could it? Yes. Will it be? No. The decision to remove the bonding from the spell has very little to do with mechanical needs.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>>Also one of my favorite things about Bards was the cyclic debil/TM combat in Abandon heart. Any chance we could make it spirit damage/stun?
No. Not only would that end up making it even more overpowered than it is now (For most practical purposes) but it'd cost out at something like 7 slots.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
No. Not only would that end up making it even more overpowered than it is now (For most practical purposes) but it'd cost out at something like 7 slots.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
> Also one of my favorite things about Bards was the cyclic debil/TM combat in Abandon heart. Any chance we could make it spirit damage/stun?
The stuns it inflicts currently aren't debilitation stuns like DMRS. Instead, they're the normal stuns you get from taking a lot of damage, in this case taking a lot of spirit damage. So there's no reason to expect them to go away unless a change is made to core combat.
The stuns it inflicts currently aren't debilitation stuns like DMRS. Instead, they're the normal stuns you get from taking a lot of damage, in this case taking a lot of spirit damage. So there's no reason to expect them to go away unless a change is made to core combat.
waitaminute
>>How do diminishing returns work for cyclic debils?
>The same as any other diminishing returns.
I never expected to have to have a degree in ...whatever... for the Realms.
What does that even mean? What diminishing returns? How does that work?
I hate this magicking up the guild more and more as these things get revealed to us.
- - -
~Dreamheart Delaevan Forestwolf
Broken Bard since January 19, 2013 - 2 Dolefaren 407
>>How do diminishing returns work for cyclic debils?
>The same as any other diminishing returns.
I never expected to have to have a degree in ...whatever... for the Realms.
What does that even mean? What diminishing returns? How does that work?
I hate this magicking up the guild more and more as these things get revealed to us.
- - -
~Dreamheart Delaevan Forestwolf
Broken Bard since January 19, 2013 - 2 Dolefaren 407
Fear not.
From http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Crowd_Control
Based on this post: http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Diminishing_Returns_and_You_-_02/27/2013_-_14:42
After being hit by a disabler, a PC (does not apply to critters) will have some resistance to the effects of another for a short time after.
First: Normal duration. A timer starts that is 60 seconds + the duration of the CC.
Second: Duration of CC cut in half. The 60 second timer is reset.
Third and more: Duration of CC reduced to 1 second. This does not reset the CC timer.
This is separate from the cooldown that prevents hitting PCs or critters with the same debilitation twice.
From http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Crowd_Control
Based on this post: http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Diminishing_Returns_and_You_-_02/27/2013_-_14:42
After being hit by a disabler, a PC (does not apply to critters) will have some resistance to the effects of another for a short time after.
First: Normal duration. A timer starts that is 60 seconds + the duration of the CC.
Second: Duration of CC cut in half. The 60 second timer is reset.
Third and more: Duration of CC reduced to 1 second. This does not reset the CC timer.
This is separate from the cooldown that prevents hitting PCs or critters with the same debilitation twice.
> What does that even mean? What diminishing returns? How does that work?
You can't keep a player (or a boss monster) stunned/paralyzed/unconscious forever. The long answer is somewhat complicated (see: http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Diminishing_Returns_and_You_-_02/27/2013_-_14:42), but the short version is that you can only hit someone with the same stun/paralyze/sleep effect twice per minute. Note that this doesn't apply to regular monsters, only players and special monsters.
> I hate this magicking up the guild more and more as these things get revealed to us.
What does this have to do with magic?
You can't keep a player (or a boss monster) stunned/paralyzed/unconscious forever. The long answer is somewhat complicated (see: http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Diminishing_Returns_and_You_-_02/27/2013_-_14:42), but the short version is that you can only hit someone with the same stun/paralyze/sleep effect twice per minute. Note that this doesn't apply to regular monsters, only players and special monsters.
> I hate this magicking up the guild more and more as these things get revealed to us.
What does this have to do with magic?
About AEWO. Will it have the potential to do equal or more damage to the foe than it does to the Bard? I mean, it costs mana to feed the cyclic, and it's preventing the foe from regaining mana -- but if this happens at a similar rate it would seem to be a wash.
I imagine this is affected by winning a contested spell contest? If so, which one?
Also, why was the decision made to affect regeneration rather than actually drain mana? The latter is too powerful?
-- Player of Eyuve
I imagine this is affected by winning a contested spell contest? If so, which one?
Also, why was the decision made to affect regeneration rather than actually drain mana? The latter is too powerful?
-- Player of Eyuve
>>I hate this magicking up the guild more and more as these things get revealed to us.
>>What does this have to do with magic?
Here, I'll translate: "Waaaahwaaahh. We're not mages. We deserve special treatment."
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
>>What does this have to do with magic?
Here, I'll translate: "Waaaahwaaahh. We're not mages. We deserve special treatment."
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
I would really like to see bards keep and Aoe Cyclic debilitation, that either stuns or immobalizes. It's not like these things are unheard of. Clerics can Hydra Hex and keep debuffs on everyone forever... With no diminishing returns. I see bards as being better at debilitation then clerics. I don't really want to get into a guild VS guild. But just read our proposed spell list. And check some others out. At this point what makes bards unique magic wise? What is it that they excell in?
I'm not even that invested in my bard yet. Only circle 40. But I hate to see the path some guilds are going down, while others have absolutely amazing abilities.
-Zerreck
>>About AEWO. Will it have the potential to do equal or more damage to the foe than it does to the Bard?
That depends on a number of factors - win percentage, pulse cost, and current levels of attunement for both parties as the most notable. If your target isn't casting spells, then no. If your target is casting some spells, then maybe. If your target is casting lots of spells then yes. But either way, you still are causing the immobilization effect on the target.
>>spell contest? If so, which one?
Charm vs Fortitude
>>why was the decision made to affect regeneration rather than actually drain mana?
Well, the original mana drain at times either looked too powerful or worthless depending on the situation, and was rarely fair. Either it didn't drain enough mana to overcome the large mana gain when attunement was low, or it drained so much mana that by the time the CC suppression allowed the target to move again mana was at 0. In a close to even match the regen debuff should be better for the Bard than the drain effect vs moderate to heavily casting foes.
>>I would really like to see bards keep and Aoe Cyclic debilitation, that either stuns or immobalizes. It's not like these things are unheard of. Clerics can Hydra Hex and keep debuffs on everyone forever... With no diminishing returns.
HYH doesn't have diminishing returns because it doesn't do any CC abilities.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
That depends on a number of factors - win percentage, pulse cost, and current levels of attunement for both parties as the most notable. If your target isn't casting spells, then no. If your target is casting some spells, then maybe. If your target is casting lots of spells then yes. But either way, you still are causing the immobilization effect on the target.
>>spell contest? If so, which one?
Charm vs Fortitude
>>why was the decision made to affect regeneration rather than actually drain mana?
Well, the original mana drain at times either looked too powerful or worthless depending on the situation, and was rarely fair. Either it didn't drain enough mana to overcome the large mana gain when attunement was low, or it drained so much mana that by the time the CC suppression allowed the target to move again mana was at 0. In a close to even match the regen debuff should be better for the Bard than the drain effect vs moderate to heavily casting foes.
>>I would really like to see bards keep and Aoe Cyclic debilitation, that either stuns or immobalizes. It's not like these things are unheard of. Clerics can Hydra Hex and keep debuffs on everyone forever... With no diminishing returns.
HYH doesn't have diminishing returns because it doesn't do any CC abilities.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
>HYH doesn't have diminishing returns because it doesn't do any CC abilities.
That is a very fair point.
I have heard bards have a few spells that have been worked on, but did not make the 3.0 cut. Will these spells make it out when the other's spell change? It just feels that bards will be a little underwhelming compared to my other characters. I could just be seeing a very incomplete process though. Is that the case?
-Zerreck
>>Will these spells make it out when the other's spell change?
Maybe. I've got a few fresh conversions for other guilds ready to go, so I'd like to punch out a new one for Bards when I finish up a few more fixed conversions. If this does happen it'll probably happen sometime during the Test testing, not right when Test opens.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Maybe. I've got a few fresh conversions for other guilds ready to go, so I'd like to punch out a new one for Bards when I finish up a few more fixed conversions. If this does happen it'll probably happen sometime during the Test testing, not right when Test opens.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
>If this does happen it'll probably happen sometime during the Test testing, not right when Test opens.
That sounds great. The AOE cyclic CC is very much a staple fo the bardic enchante. And I hope it is DALU that was mentioned earlier. Or are Cyclic AOE CC spells going to be non existant in the future?
I also want to thank you for answering my questions.
-Zerreck
Thanks for answering me Ricinus. I'm mostly clear now and excited to test the spell when it comes out.
>>That depends on a number of factors - win percentage, pulse cost, and current levels of attunement for both parties as the most notable. If your target isn't casting spells, then no. If your target is casting some spells, then maybe.
Now, I'm not saying that AEWO has to do this, but I was kind of hoping for a spell that would help (eventually) vs. something like Aether Cloak -- basically if the opponent is only using a cyclic and not casting other spells. I'm curious if AEWO has this potential. It sounds like maybe -- if the success is good enough, eventually they will drain out their mana without being able to regenerate it.
Very neat, thanks!
-- Player of Eyuve
>>That depends on a number of factors - win percentage, pulse cost, and current levels of attunement for both parties as the most notable. If your target isn't casting spells, then no. If your target is casting some spells, then maybe.
Now, I'm not saying that AEWO has to do this, but I was kind of hoping for a spell that would help (eventually) vs. something like Aether Cloak -- basically if the opponent is only using a cyclic and not casting other spells. I'm curious if AEWO has this potential. It sounds like maybe -- if the success is good enough, eventually they will drain out their mana without being able to regenerate it.
Very neat, thanks!
-- Player of Eyuve
>>And I hope it is DALU that was mentioned earlier. Or are Cyclic AOE CC spells going to be non existant in the future?
I personally think that the idea of AOE cyclic CCs is problematic, but that's no indication that there won't ever be any.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
I personally think that the idea of AOE cyclic CCs is problematic, but that's no indication that there won't ever be any.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
> What does this have to do with magic?
Er, for well over a decade, I never heard of such things. I figured these terms and stuff all came in when we were remade with magic at the beginning of the year.
... and I believe that the long and short of the answer sounds like diminishing returns is only something I need be concerned about in PvP.
Debilitation Area of Effect:> Abandoned Heart and the Maelstrom are both cyclics that are debilitation.
- - -
~Dreamheart Delaevan Forestwolf
Broken Bard since January 19, 2013 - 2 Dolefaren 407
Er, for well over a decade, I never heard of such things. I figured these terms and stuff all came in when we were remade with magic at the beginning of the year.
... and I believe that the long and short of the answer sounds like diminishing returns is only something I need be concerned about in PvP.
Debilitation Area of Effect:> Abandoned Heart and the Maelstrom are both cyclics that are debilitation.
- - -
~Dreamheart Delaevan Forestwolf
Broken Bard since January 19, 2013 - 2 Dolefaren 407
>Er, for well over a decade, I never heard of such things. I figured these terms and stuff all came in when we were remade with magic at the beginning of the year.
None of this balancing used to exist in the magic system for anyone, so these terms came into being for all of us at the same time.
None of this balancing used to exist in the magic system for anyone, so these terms came into being for all of us at the same time.
>>What does that even mean? What diminishing returns? How does that work?
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Discussions%20with%20DragonRealms%20Staff%20and%20Players/Game%20Master%20and%20Official%20Announcements/view/903
>>I hate this magicking up the guild more and more as these things get revealed to us.
Diminishing Returns have been in place globally since Feb. and there are no current plans to change them.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Discussions%20with%20DragonRealms%20Staff%20and%20Players/Game%20Master%20and%20Official%20Announcements/view/903
>>I hate this magicking up the guild more and more as these things get revealed to us.
Diminishing Returns have been in place globally since Feb. and there are no current plans to change them.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
It was my decision that AEWO become a single target spell, and a lot of that has to do with it being a basic spell (It got bumped up from intro) to keep it's slot cost light.
In general AoE spells cost a fair bit more slots than before and it was just killing Bards to have so a large number of complex spells that were always AoE. By reducing AEWO to single target it's still able to perform the same role in many situations, cost less slots, and fill a different niche than some other Bard spells (DALU being an example).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
In general AoE spells cost a fair bit more slots than before and it was just killing Bards to have so a large number of complex spells that were always AoE. By reducing AEWO to single target it's still able to perform the same role in many situations, cost less slots, and fill a different niche than some other Bard spells (DALU being an example).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>By reducing AEWO to single target it's still able to perform the same role in many situations, cost less slots, and fill a different niche than some other Bard spells (DALU being an example).
What level spell will DALU be? I loved AEWO as a low-circle bard because it was a great "get out of trouble" spell. If I started getting overwhelmed I could put up AEWO and greatly reduce the incoming damage for a bit while I recovered and thinned the crowds. This was more important when I was low circle and didn't have many other tools available. A single-target disabler wouldn't be as useful in reducing the incoming damage, which is what it was great at. As a basic level cyclic spell, the mana regen bit is pretty useless for anyone who doesn't PVP since by the time you fight actual magic using critters you will want to run other, better, cyclic spells.
What level spell will DALU be? I loved AEWO as a low-circle bard because it was a great "get out of trouble" spell. If I started getting overwhelmed I could put up AEWO and greatly reduce the incoming damage for a bit while I recovered and thinned the crowds. This was more important when I was low circle and didn't have many other tools available. A single-target disabler wouldn't be as useful in reducing the incoming damage, which is what it was great at. As a basic level cyclic spell, the mana regen bit is pretty useless for anyone who doesn't PVP since by the time you fight actual magic using critters you will want to run other, better, cyclic spells.
Personally, I'd rather see AEWO be bumped up to advanced or esoteric with a higher slot cost and retaining its AoE effect.
If that's not possible, is there any way we could have some form of a non-cyclic debilitation spell? I feel like Bards are still more limited than other guilds due to the large amount of cyclics in their spellbook, especially now that several of these cyclics seem to be losing a lot of their kick.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
If that's not possible, is there any way we could have some form of a non-cyclic debilitation spell? I feel like Bards are still more limited than other guilds due to the large amount of cyclics in their spellbook, especially now that several of these cyclics seem to be losing a lot of their kick.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
>>I hate this magicking up the guild more and more as these things get revealed to us.
Certain things like diminishing returns for stuns/immobilization are global rules. These rules would still come into effect no matter what the bard guild had its abilities labeled as.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Certain things like diminishing returns for stuns/immobilization are global rules. These rules would still come into effect no matter what the bard guild had its abilities labeled as.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Yes, a Necromancer telling Bards to reroll into Clerics and Paladins.
While my Bard is by no means close to my older and more established characters, I find the guild quite fun and don't see that changing TOO much from magic 3.0 to magic 3.1. I think I will amend my signature to quote myself when I said "I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over."
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
While my Bard is by no means close to my older and more established characters, I find the guild quite fun and don't see that changing TOO much from magic 3.0 to magic 3.1. I think I will amend my signature to quote myself when I said "I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over."
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
Agreed, what I've seen from the posts by Raesh and Ricinus have me confident they know the impact this will have on bards given how cyclic heavy our spellbooks are.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
