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>>I'm not going to really dig into the "Why" in this post, though in short the goal is to reshape Bards into a guild with a holistic vision, for the sake of playability, future development and consistent lore.<<
What does Holistic Vision mean? Consistant IC lore? Consistant Player RP lore? Or consistant to a new vision? Again, I'm not complaining, I'm trying to understand. I've primarily played a bard a long time. With GM Rowan's vision we were bards who played in the guilds -- we laughed, performed, partyied, then it was decided we sat around in the guilds too much partying -- "Out to the fields with you" she said. And so we went out to be bardbarians. For a few years we were such. Then Came another vision... GM Melodia believed we should be performance oriented -- and in came the years of development for the performance bunny while we waited for the mythical beast to be born.. Music 2.0. A lot of bards complained (yes perhaps I was one of the louder ones.. but I wasn't the only one)... Then SGM Maelona decided after a trip to a VegasCon -- Bards must be support cast only -- and development was tailored that way. Then we had our great years of GM Hoome, GM Deryka who I think finally killed and rebirthed the mythical beast with help from many, GM Ssra, GM Dart and GM V -- and their visions helped balance out some of our problems but kept our UNIQUE bardicness -- I am trying to understand -- how are we going to remain unique -- if things like this are happening:
>>1) Voice Rewrite - As mentioned, this basically is a minor change to allow non-Bards to have a vocal range, allow Bards to change their vocal range, and fix a rather large technical issue to allow work to begin on other projects. This is currently in QC, and I'll give you full details when it's released.<<
What is keeping bards unique, if every tom, dick and thief are allowed to sing with range. How will we be able to know without a doubt that someone is truly a bard or just someone who's faking being a bard if they refuse to perform enchantes? How will performing true bards remain a cut above and special when they perform other than being able to change our range. Will we get to sing loud enough so that other rooms can hear us or will our vocal range be changed from 1 to 2 or 3? If the rewrite is to fix an issue, great, but to give everyone one of the little "benies" we have (which does nothing except give us uniqueness), I am unclear how this is good for this guild. Are the other guilds losing things which are intrinsically theirs? Are Thieves losing the ability to use bard titles? Clerics losing the ability to peer into a soul? Just trying to understand why allowing people in other guilds to have the one thing that bards have that make us clearly unique is right for us.
Thank you for doing all the Recall additions. They add some depth and texture to playing a bard. I'm still out on the "Heritages" because of the fact 14 years of Jack-Of-All-Trades theory doesn't get changed overnight.
Mojo rewrite:
I truly and deeply have hope this development will allow our tank to grow/or the abilities use less mojo as the skill of the bard increases.
Looking forward to the abilities. You have been a swift implimenter and I appreciate not only the considerable efforts, but the attention to keeping bards the special, unique guild we have been .. such that you still have longterm players after well over a decade.
Respectfully,
Kat
>>I am unclear how this is good for this guild. Are the other guilds losing things which are intrinsically theirs? Are Thieves losing the ability to use bard titles? Clerics losing the ability to peer into a soul? Just trying to understand why allowing people in other guilds to have the one thing that bards have that make us clearly unique is right for us.
Not fair comparisons at all, stop freaking out. We'll continue to have a lot of unique things from other guilds, most notably the new type of spell that's cast and pulses to group members. Screams are still a way to showcase who you really are if you're having to prove yourself just blast someone in the face with your chords.
I think you should be asking yourself exactly how other Guild's having a singing range -hurts- the Bard Guild. I can't think of any...
Not fair comparisons at all, stop freaking out. We'll continue to have a lot of unique things from other guilds, most notably the new type of spell that's cast and pulses to group members. Screams are still a way to showcase who you really are if you're having to prove yourself just blast someone in the face with your chords.
I think you should be asking yourself exactly how other Guild's having a singing range -hurts- the Bard Guild. I can't think of any...
I think using a technical limitation like "You don't have a vocal type when you sing" to try to out someone as a thief or necromancer pretending to be a bard is flat out lame and I'm glad that option of "RP" won't be available. I do understand the unwillingness to part with something bardic, though. I look at it like this: Is vocal range really something we should worry about losing, or are we just so used to not getting stuff that we cling to every pointless facet of being a bard with a deathgrip?
I think Magic 3.0 and the Heritages are going to fix us. Maybe they won't make everyone happy, but I know that I for one have been begging for castable spells and a more robust set of abilities for ages, so I'm happy as a clam.
-=Issus=-
I think Magic 3.0 and the Heritages are going to fix us. Maybe they won't make everyone happy, but I know that I for one have been begging for castable spells and a more robust set of abilities for ages, so I'm happy as a clam.
-=Issus=-
Honestly, only having enchantes before didn't make us unique, it hamstrung us. With the new system we'll have both spells and enchantes which will go a long way to making us actually viable.
Here's to hoping we can still sing/play our cyclic enchantes on instruments though.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
Here's to hoping we can still sing/play our cyclic enchantes on instruments though.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
1) I'm not freaking out.
2) I'm talking about something that has for 14 years made us truly standout and was Bard only, like Thieves being able to use other guild titles, traders with their special handshakes.. not something that defines the guild.. but something that clearly is bardic.
3) While I agree, in some sense it's a not a huge thing to lose -- what are we going to get to replace it to clearly identify bards as the premier performers if we should choose to perform and sing? What's the point of being a bard if we're not clearly special when it comes to one of the hallmarks of the guild, vocal ability?
I can think of several reasons why it "hurts" the guild -- specifically because if anyone can sing with a range .. then there's really no reason for a singing performance bard to be one. It also will allow those who fake being bards to further develop their fake roles and steal the small niche bards have, as evidenced by the fact Ilithi doesn't have a true bard in the Court Bard position. A slap in the face to all bards who have spent years playing bards.
Performing isn't all bards do, but for those who have spent literal years developing performing roles, taking this thing away which clearly says, "that is a true bard performing" is wrong, IMO. Maybe I'm in the minority, and that's fine.
That was the question -- what do we get for the loss of this thing which makes the guild unique and special when we perform.
2) I'm talking about something that has for 14 years made us truly standout and was Bard only, like Thieves being able to use other guild titles, traders with their special handshakes.. not something that defines the guild.. but something that clearly is bardic.
3) While I agree, in some sense it's a not a huge thing to lose -- what are we going to get to replace it to clearly identify bards as the premier performers if we should choose to perform and sing? What's the point of being a bard if we're not clearly special when it comes to one of the hallmarks of the guild, vocal ability?
I can think of several reasons why it "hurts" the guild -- specifically because if anyone can sing with a range .. then there's really no reason for a singing performance bard to be one. It also will allow those who fake being bards to further develop their fake roles and steal the small niche bards have, as evidenced by the fact Ilithi doesn't have a true bard in the Court Bard position. A slap in the face to all bards who have spent years playing bards.
Performing isn't all bards do, but for those who have spent literal years developing performing roles, taking this thing away which clearly says, "that is a true bard performing" is wrong, IMO. Maybe I'm in the minority, and that's fine.
That was the question -- what do we get for the loss of this thing which makes the guild unique and special when we perform.
>>Honestly, only having enchantes before didn't make us unique, it hamstrung us. With the new system we'll have both spells and enchantes which will go a long way to making us actually viable.
Here's to hoping we can still sing/play our cyclic enchantes on instruments though.<<
I get what you're saying Leilond...I'm actually looking forward to the new magic system. It will be interesting to see how it all works out. I just am hoping that we maintain our *unique bardliness* in the process.
Kat
Here's to hoping we can still sing/play our cyclic enchantes on instruments though.<<
I get what you're saying Leilond...I'm actually looking forward to the new magic system. It will be interesting to see how it all works out. I just am hoping that we maintain our *unique bardliness* in the process.
Kat
Ilithi doesn't have a bard in the Court Bard position because me and Tea didn't do so hot. It's not a slap in the face of bards, the person who is doing it now is just a hell of a lot more motivated to do it than I ever was.
As for what we're getting, I believe Bards will have access to an extended vocal range which is something that has been asked for for years. We're getting an entire Heritage dedicated to performance bards, to boot.
The thing is, really, that the vocal ranges have nothing to do with how well or poorly a performance bard performs. That little adjective describing how high or low your voice is doesn't mean squat if you're not performing or not writing decently written material. Want to be a uniquely outstanding performance bard? The best and easiest way is to write really good lyrics.
I see vocal ranges opening not as us losing something, but gaining more options. Sure, everyone else will get 1 option too, but who cares? It's a useless fluff adjective that doesn't really matter. We're getting a ton of awesome stuff coming up here, let's not cling to the useless junk of the past.
-=Issus=-
As for what we're getting, I believe Bards will have access to an extended vocal range which is something that has been asked for for years. We're getting an entire Heritage dedicated to performance bards, to boot.
The thing is, really, that the vocal ranges have nothing to do with how well or poorly a performance bard performs. That little adjective describing how high or low your voice is doesn't mean squat if you're not performing or not writing decently written material. Want to be a uniquely outstanding performance bard? The best and easiest way is to write really good lyrics.
I see vocal ranges opening not as us losing something, but gaining more options. Sure, everyone else will get 1 option too, but who cares? It's a useless fluff adjective that doesn't really matter. We're getting a ton of awesome stuff coming up here, let's not cling to the useless junk of the past.
-=Issus=-
<<Is vocal range really something we should worry about losing>>>
As the parent of a vocal student, the reality of "Voice range" being a pretty excellent Bard RP tool (not to OUT people but as a guild/tool in general) is vitaly important to my eyes. Yes it becomes CLEAR as ice in reality when a TRAINED vocalist is performing and when a voice with less or no training is compared to it. Obviously since our Text RP is limmited...you cant hear it so you have to see it... well you get the idea.
A visual Vocal Range, in my opinion should remain bard only simply because it brings more realisim to the game. Includeing all the music THEORY that goes into a specific vocalists training. This makes sense to me.
I realize non-bards can train vocals also, however compare again a True Vocal Student to someone just naturaly talented with tone, and they are simply not the same. You can get the range of an amature singer but to actually label it.. not so much. Compare a classical vocalist to a good singer in other words. I'm not a fan of changeing our range unless we're talking about a young bard, for the same reasons.
I understand the 'cling to what we have' theory. This isn't that for me.
I just happen to understand how vocalist training matters, and that Sphere of Influence? Should be bardic in DR.
T
As the parent of a vocal student, the reality of "Voice range" being a pretty excellent Bard RP tool (not to OUT people but as a guild/tool in general) is vitaly important to my eyes. Yes it becomes CLEAR as ice in reality when a TRAINED vocalist is performing and when a voice with less or no training is compared to it. Obviously since our Text RP is limmited...you cant hear it so you have to see it... well you get the idea.
A visual Vocal Range, in my opinion should remain bard only simply because it brings more realisim to the game. Includeing all the music THEORY that goes into a specific vocalists training. This makes sense to me.
I realize non-bards can train vocals also, however compare again a True Vocal Student to someone just naturaly talented with tone, and they are simply not the same. You can get the range of an amature singer but to actually label it.. not so much. Compare a classical vocalist to a good singer in other words. I'm not a fan of changeing our range unless we're talking about a young bard, for the same reasons.
I understand the 'cling to what we have' theory. This isn't that for me.
I just happen to understand how vocalist training matters, and that Sphere of Influence? Should be bardic in DR.
T
I don't see us as loosing anything with everyone being able to sing with a range. I'm sure Bards will still have greater range than non-Bards. And how realistic is it to say that non-Bards don't have ranges anyways? Do they all sing in a monotone voice? If a Cleric, Thief, or Warrior Mage wants to be a performer, I say good for them! Adding more RP tools for everyone to use is a good thing for the game! And being a Bard does not automatically make you a premier performer, it just gives you access to some tools to get yourself there. We will always have the Playact verb.
I don't know about anyone else, but if someone wants to RP being a Bard who is not actually in the guild, then more power to them. Because a Bard is a lot of things, not just an enchante-slinging, perfect voice, mechanical happy meal.
A Bard is also many other things such as a storyteller. And if a Moon Mage or a Thief or a Cleric or a bunny wants to RP being a Bard by embracing every non-technical aspect of the guild, then more power to them.
I'm sorry if that's not a popular point of view.
- Terra
A Bard is also many other things such as a storyteller. And if a Moon Mage or a Thief or a Cleric or a bunny wants to RP being a Bard by embracing every non-technical aspect of the guild, then more power to them.
I'm sorry if that's not a popular point of view.
- Terra
>>I see vocal ranges opening not as us losing something, but gaining more options. Sure, everyone else will get 1 option too, but who cares? It's a useless fluff adjective that doesn't really matter. We're getting a ton of awesome stuff coming up here, let's not cling to the useless junk of the past.<<
I didn't see where we're getting any options for vocal range over and above what everyone else is getting. If I missed it.. then my bad. We're going to get to "change" our vocal range -- but is that just go from say soprano to mezzo-soprano.. if we choose as a one time thing.. or change at will -- which I don't know if that makes sense, because -- I don't know of many baritones that can sing contra-tenor roles either.
I'm certainly not trying to "cling to useless junk" -- I'm just trying to make sure that someone says -- >>Great! Looking forward to the development! Please make sure we're still bards and not mages with music when it's done! Thanks!<<
In regards to the Vocal ability -- Tea's post said what I was trying to get at a lot better than I was saying it...
>As the parent of a vocal student, the reality of "Voice range" being a pretty excellent Bard RP tool (not to OUT people but as a guild/tool in general) is vitaly important to my eyes. Yes it becomes CLEAR as ice in reality when a TRAINED vocalist is performing and when a voice with less or no training is compared to it. Obviously since our Text RP is limmited...you cant hear it so you have to see it... well you get the idea.<
>A visual Vocal Range, in my opinion should remain bard only simply because it brings more realisim to the game. Includeing all the music THEORY that goes into a specific vocalists training. This makes sense to me.<
I didn't see where we're getting any options for vocal range over and above what everyone else is getting. If I missed it.. then my bad. We're going to get to "change" our vocal range -- but is that just go from say soprano to mezzo-soprano.. if we choose as a one time thing.. or change at will -- which I don't know if that makes sense, because -- I don't know of many baritones that can sing contra-tenor roles either.
I'm certainly not trying to "cling to useless junk" -- I'm just trying to make sure that someone says -- >>Great! Looking forward to the development! Please make sure we're still bards and not mages with music when it's done! Thanks!<<
In regards to the Vocal ability -- Tea's post said what I was trying to get at a lot better than I was saying it...
>As the parent of a vocal student, the reality of "Voice range" being a pretty excellent Bard RP tool (not to OUT people but as a guild/tool in general) is vitaly important to my eyes. Yes it becomes CLEAR as ice in reality when a TRAINED vocalist is performing and when a voice with less or no training is compared to it. Obviously since our Text RP is limmited...you cant hear it so you have to see it... well you get the idea.<
>A visual Vocal Range, in my opinion should remain bard only simply because it brings more realisim to the game. Includeing all the music THEORY that goes into a specific vocalists training. This makes sense to me.<
PLEASE have enough faith in the current development team that they will help us retain what actually makes us Bards.
The current development team across the board has done nothing short of a mind-blowingly amazing job at fleshing out guilds and abilities. Why would they let us down now?
I don't think they will and I think we have nothing to worry about and everything to look forward to. I won't post again in this thread until it becomes productive. (That's not a cut toward anyone btw)
- Terra
The current development team across the board has done nothing short of a mind-blowingly amazing job at fleshing out guilds and abilities. Why would they let us down now?
I don't think they will and I think we have nothing to worry about and everything to look forward to. I won't post again in this thread until it becomes productive. (That's not a cut toward anyone btw)
- Terra
Some time ago only Thieves were able to hide instantly when being advanced upon. Any other guild would experience "Deer in headlights" which is where your character starts trembling and frantically looking around for a hiding spot even if said character had 1000 ranks in Hiding and Stalking. This made no sense in a skill based game, so the ability to hide without experiencing the 'deer in headlights' effect was opened up to non-Thieves.
Some Thieves cried foul but in the end, it wasn't this one little ability that made them Thieves. Likewise, it is not merely having a vocal range which makes a Bard unique :)
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
Some Thieves cried foul but in the end, it wasn't this one little ability that made them Thieves. Likewise, it is not merely having a vocal range which makes a Bard unique :)
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
Sure. Let's take a whack at this.
>>What does Holistic Vision mean?
I think you basically answered your own question here. Over the years Bards have been developed on some dramatically different visions and the end result is a mishmash of things that don't really make sense together. While part of what I'm up to is to make sure the Lore is coherent, I'm more concerned about making sure everything a Bard can do makes sense and works well together to deliver an enjoyable and balanced play experience. Basically for every ability I'm trying to answer the questions "Why would a Bard be able to do this? Why would a player want to do this? Is it redundant with something else a Bard can already do?"
>>Voice rewrite.
This is nearly out of QC, but the simple fact is that this is a skill based game, and a non Bard can have 2000 ranks of vocals if they want. Does it make sense that despite that they always remain untrained? Not really. The issue of auto-outing thieves has also been brought up. All that's really going on here is that everyone will have a default voice type, but someone with training (read: A Bard) will be able to shift their vocal range with enough skill.
>>I'm still out on the "Heritages" because of the fact 14 years of Jack-Of-All-Trades theory doesn't get changed overnight.
Bards will retain the flexibility to fill practically any role to some degree, but like any guild they will have strengths and weaknesses. One of the problems in developing the Holistic vision mentioned above is that the biggest traditional strengths for a Bard (Performance and group buffing) are things that tend to not convert to a great play experience in our little land.
>>Mojo rewrite
I think it's safe to say that basically anything you know about the current mojo system will be changing. The current system is really, really, really messed up.
An essential change I plan to make is to make the use of mojo abilities a much more integrated part of the play experience.
>>I'm talking about something that has for 14 years made us truly standout and was Bard only, like Thieves being able to use other guild titles, traders with their special handshakes.. not something that defines the guild.. but something that clearly is bardic.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but if one of the major things that defines your guild is the fact that an extra word appears in front of your singing and chanting... I see that as a huge problem.
I think what's going on here is that we aren't seeing eye to eye. You're looking at the Bard guild as an outlet to perform, which is perfectly fine. I'm looking at the Bard guild as a guild that I need to make mechanically work.
I'm not opposed to giving you guys more RP tools, but it is not my current focus. Keep in mind, if RP tools are lacking (And I don't believe they are for Bards) you can cover for that. If the mechanical tools are lacking... well... you can't really get away with:
>act really did dodge your attack because his bluff was broken.
>>What's the point of being a bard if we're not clearly special when it comes to one of the hallmarks of the guild, vocal ability?
You still get more out of the vocal range system as mentioned above. Also see above for what you're getting.
But you have highlighted a very good question, one of the major forces behind what I'm working on. "Why be a Bard?".
>>Performing isn't all bards do, but for those who have spent literal years developing performing roles, taking this thing away which clearly says, "that is a true bard performing" is wrong, IMO.
I am absolutely not saying that. Being a performance focused bard is 100% acceptable, but there are other aspects of the guild that need tending too.
Also keep in mind that one of the three Heritages will be focused on performance (the Taleweavers). Check em out with the time comes!
>>As for what we're getting, I believe Bards will have access to an extended vocal range which is something that has been asked for for years.
Actually Bards won't have an extended vocal range. What they'll have is the ability to shift their vocal range away from their default value. This will, however, let you extend your range outside of your race's natural options.
>>but is that just go from say soprano to mezzo-soprano.. if we choose as a one time thing.. or change at will -- which I don't know if that makes sense, because -- I don't know of many baritones that can sing contra-tenor roles either.
It will be at will, assuming you have enough skill.
While it may not be entirely realistic to have someone shift the full range, it's not entirely realistic to be able to destroy someone's chest with a scream. Adventurers in Dragonrealms are not limited to the mundane.
-Raesh
PS: I think this came up in the other thread, but I'll answer it here. I'm aware that you're going to lose a lot of the way you current train musics with Magic 3.0, and don't worry -- that's part of the mojo/ability rewrite to make sure that's not a problem. More details on that as the skill combine shakes out.
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>>What does Holistic Vision mean?
I think you basically answered your own question here. Over the years Bards have been developed on some dramatically different visions and the end result is a mishmash of things that don't really make sense together. While part of what I'm up to is to make sure the Lore is coherent, I'm more concerned about making sure everything a Bard can do makes sense and works well together to deliver an enjoyable and balanced play experience. Basically for every ability I'm trying to answer the questions "Why would a Bard be able to do this? Why would a player want to do this? Is it redundant with something else a Bard can already do?"
>>Voice rewrite.
This is nearly out of QC, but the simple fact is that this is a skill based game, and a non Bard can have 2000 ranks of vocals if they want. Does it make sense that despite that they always remain untrained? Not really. The issue of auto-outing thieves has also been brought up. All that's really going on here is that everyone will have a default voice type, but someone with training (read: A Bard) will be able to shift their vocal range with enough skill.
>>I'm still out on the "Heritages" because of the fact 14 years of Jack-Of-All-Trades theory doesn't get changed overnight.
Bards will retain the flexibility to fill practically any role to some degree, but like any guild they will have strengths and weaknesses. One of the problems in developing the Holistic vision mentioned above is that the biggest traditional strengths for a Bard (Performance and group buffing) are things that tend to not convert to a great play experience in our little land.
>>Mojo rewrite
I think it's safe to say that basically anything you know about the current mojo system will be changing. The current system is really, really, really messed up.
An essential change I plan to make is to make the use of mojo abilities a much more integrated part of the play experience.
>>I'm talking about something that has for 14 years made us truly standout and was Bard only, like Thieves being able to use other guild titles, traders with their special handshakes.. not something that defines the guild.. but something that clearly is bardic.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but if one of the major things that defines your guild is the fact that an extra word appears in front of your singing and chanting... I see that as a huge problem.
I think what's going on here is that we aren't seeing eye to eye. You're looking at the Bard guild as an outlet to perform, which is perfectly fine. I'm looking at the Bard guild as a guild that I need to make mechanically work.
I'm not opposed to giving you guys more RP tools, but it is not my current focus. Keep in mind, if RP tools are lacking (And I don't believe they are for Bards) you can cover for that. If the mechanical tools are lacking... well... you can't really get away with:
>act really did dodge your attack because his bluff was broken.
>>What's the point of being a bard if we're not clearly special when it comes to one of the hallmarks of the guild, vocal ability?
You still get more out of the vocal range system as mentioned above. Also see above for what you're getting.
But you have highlighted a very good question, one of the major forces behind what I'm working on. "Why be a Bard?".
>>Performing isn't all bards do, but for those who have spent literal years developing performing roles, taking this thing away which clearly says, "that is a true bard performing" is wrong, IMO.
I am absolutely not saying that. Being a performance focused bard is 100% acceptable, but there are other aspects of the guild that need tending too.
Also keep in mind that one of the three Heritages will be focused on performance (the Taleweavers). Check em out with the time comes!
>>As for what we're getting, I believe Bards will have access to an extended vocal range which is something that has been asked for for years.
Actually Bards won't have an extended vocal range. What they'll have is the ability to shift their vocal range away from their default value. This will, however, let you extend your range outside of your race's natural options.
>>but is that just go from say soprano to mezzo-soprano.. if we choose as a one time thing.. or change at will -- which I don't know if that makes sense, because -- I don't know of many baritones that can sing contra-tenor roles either.
It will be at will, assuming you have enough skill.
While it may not be entirely realistic to have someone shift the full range, it's not entirely realistic to be able to destroy someone's chest with a scream. Adventurers in Dragonrealms are not limited to the mundane.
-Raesh
PS: I think this came up in the other thread, but I'll answer it here. I'm aware that you're going to lose a lot of the way you current train musics with Magic 3.0, and don't worry -- that's part of the mojo/ability rewrite to make sure that's not a problem. More details on that as the skill combine shakes out.
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Thanks for making vocal ranges accessible to non bards, I've always wanted Seb to sing and now I'll feel a little more comfortable about it since her voice won't be plain. Can't wait to take the stage somewhere!
Sebastienne is wanted for murder, endangering the public, forbidden practices, and Crimes against the State.
Sebastienne is wanted for murder, endangering the public, forbidden practices, and Crimes against the State.
>>I'm talking about something that has for 14 years made us truly standout and was Bard only, like Thieves being able to use other guild titles, traders with their special handshakes.. not something that defines the guild.. but something that clearly is bardic.
Vocal ranges? The end all and be all of being clearly bardic? What is "clearly bardic" to begin with? After performing and working with the Tavern Troupe for years I would argue that from a performance aspect a notion of "clearly bardic" has nothing to do with vocal ranges. Daerlynn, Kortny, Bubbinster, ect. songs were not good because they had Bass, Tenor, and Soprano emotes before them. I agree completely with Terra that being a good performer or historian (if somehow you translate that to being "clearly bardic") has really nothing to do with being a guilded Bard. Raesh already asked for feedback in reference to what cosmetic things you would like to see for Heritages, I think requests for further distinguishing vocal emotes could be included there.
>>While I agree, in some sense it's a not a huge thing to lose -- what are we going to get to replace it to clearly identify bards as the premier performers if we should choose to perform and sing? What's the point of being a bard if we're not clearly special when it comes to one of the hallmarks of the guild, vocal ability?
It's not a huge thing to lose, since we arn't losing anything. In fact we are actually gaining as Raesh pointed out the ability to shift our range. If a vocal emote is all that defines your character as a Bard I really don't know what to say. Perhaps this is no longer the guild for you. Holding onto the past isn't going to continue to drive the guild forward.
For a few years I stopped playing Derivan because the Guild did not have enough development in other areas I wanted to explore (pvp, crafting, ect.). Danner, Kleis, rerolled and joined other guilds just to do so. I think for everyone who ever wanted the guild to be more than just a "performance" guild things are looking up. The guild lore is full of Bards who didn't just perform all the time, but who put together and led armies (Neithrel) and who have been primarily combat oriented (Tasdraen).
Vocal ranges? The end all and be all of being clearly bardic? What is "clearly bardic" to begin with? After performing and working with the Tavern Troupe for years I would argue that from a performance aspect a notion of "clearly bardic" has nothing to do with vocal ranges. Daerlynn, Kortny, Bubbinster, ect. songs were not good because they had Bass, Tenor, and Soprano emotes before them. I agree completely with Terra that being a good performer or historian (if somehow you translate that to being "clearly bardic") has really nothing to do with being a guilded Bard. Raesh already asked for feedback in reference to what cosmetic things you would like to see for Heritages, I think requests for further distinguishing vocal emotes could be included there.
>>While I agree, in some sense it's a not a huge thing to lose -- what are we going to get to replace it to clearly identify bards as the premier performers if we should choose to perform and sing? What's the point of being a bard if we're not clearly special when it comes to one of the hallmarks of the guild, vocal ability?
It's not a huge thing to lose, since we arn't losing anything. In fact we are actually gaining as Raesh pointed out the ability to shift our range. If a vocal emote is all that defines your character as a Bard I really don't know what to say. Perhaps this is no longer the guild for you. Holding onto the past isn't going to continue to drive the guild forward.
For a few years I stopped playing Derivan because the Guild did not have enough development in other areas I wanted to explore (pvp, crafting, ect.). Danner, Kleis, rerolled and joined other guilds just to do so. I think for everyone who ever wanted the guild to be more than just a "performance" guild things are looking up. The guild lore is full of Bards who didn't just perform all the time, but who put together and led armies (Neithrel) and who have been primarily combat oriented (Tasdraen).
I will concur with the excitement. Even though I am NOT a bard, Rainea has been RPed as a very talented (yes, ego card played) singer for as long as I've been playing DR. I think its awesome that she will be getting some text-color to that aspect of her RP. It's something I've wanted for a long time. Thank you!
>>An essential change I plan to make is to make the use of mojo abilities a much more integrated part of the play experience.
Oh, so mojo abilities aren't just going to be panick button abilities like they are now? I can get behind that, though I have to say I kinda licked having scream defiance as a panick button.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
Oh, so mojo abilities aren't just going to be panick button abilities like they are now? I can get behind that, though I have to say I kinda licked having scream defiance as a panick button.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
>>Oh, so mojo abilities aren't just going to be panick button abilities like they are now?
Some of them may still fill this niche, but they aren't all going to be like that.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Some of them may still fill this niche, but they aren't all going to be like that.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Sweet, sounds fun IMO.
And that should be "liked" :/
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~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
And that should be "liked" :/
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
First of all... WOW! I didn't really expect a reply, but thanks for answering some of my questions.
>>Voice rewrite.
>>This is nearly out of QC, but the simple fact is that this is a skill based game, and a non Bard can have 2000 ranks of vocals if they want. Does it make sense that despite that they always remain untrained? Not really. The issue of auto-outing thieves has also been brought up. All that's really going on here is that everyone will have a default voice type, but someone with training (read: A Bard) will be able to shift their vocal range with enough skill.
In some ways it does make no sense they'd be "untrained" -- but then of course if they had 2000 in vocals and they were a bard, they'd likely have 2000+ in music theory which would make them still even more skilled... so there's never going to be a non-bard who's as skilled vocally (when you naturally would combine the years of training and theory a bard has). but.. you answered the question, we will be able to do more than one range -- maybe bards could <skillfully> sing (the <skill-type> of sing based upon their combined theory and vocal) range, this would make sense to me.. everyone can have range, and since this is a skill based game, bards could sing their range competently, skillfully, etc. but this is in QC so, I'm sure it's a done deal.
>>Please don't take this the wrong way, but if one of the major things that defines your guild is the fact that an extra word appears in front of your singing and chanting... I see that as a huge problem. I think what's going on here is that we aren't seeing eye to eye. You're looking at the Bard guild as an outlet to perform, which is perfectly fine. I'm looking at the Bard guild as a guild that I need to make mechanically work.
To clarify -- I said: " not something that defines the guild but is clearly bardic". Additionally, I was under the impression that DR is firstly a RP game where developing skills was part of the play, not entirely a "skill-based" game? Maybe that's where we're not seeing eye to eye?
In any event, I'm glad that you're looking at how the guild works mechanically. We've needed that for a long time to hopefully find and strike down all the crazy bugs we've lived with for years. Although I may be slightly saddened to no longer be able to put some fire to <person's> verse or help Concussion with his balance. LOL ;->
Thanks again Raesh for the response.
Kat
>>Voice rewrite.
>>This is nearly out of QC, but the simple fact is that this is a skill based game, and a non Bard can have 2000 ranks of vocals if they want. Does it make sense that despite that they always remain untrained? Not really. The issue of auto-outing thieves has also been brought up. All that's really going on here is that everyone will have a default voice type, but someone with training (read: A Bard) will be able to shift their vocal range with enough skill.
In some ways it does make no sense they'd be "untrained" -- but then of course if they had 2000 in vocals and they were a bard, they'd likely have 2000+ in music theory which would make them still even more skilled... so there's never going to be a non-bard who's as skilled vocally (when you naturally would combine the years of training and theory a bard has). but.. you answered the question, we will be able to do more than one range -- maybe bards could <skillfully> sing (the <skill-type> of sing based upon their combined theory and vocal) range, this would make sense to me.. everyone can have range, and since this is a skill based game, bards could sing their range competently, skillfully, etc. but this is in QC so, I'm sure it's a done deal.
>>Please don't take this the wrong way, but if one of the major things that defines your guild is the fact that an extra word appears in front of your singing and chanting... I see that as a huge problem. I think what's going on here is that we aren't seeing eye to eye. You're looking at the Bard guild as an outlet to perform, which is perfectly fine. I'm looking at the Bard guild as a guild that I need to make mechanically work.
To clarify -- I said: " not something that defines the guild but is clearly bardic". Additionally, I was under the impression that DR is firstly a RP game where developing skills was part of the play, not entirely a "skill-based" game? Maybe that's where we're not seeing eye to eye?
In any event, I'm glad that you're looking at how the guild works mechanically. We've needed that for a long time to hopefully find and strike down all the crazy bugs we've lived with for years. Although I may be slightly saddened to no longer be able to put some fire to <person's> verse or help Concussion with his balance. LOL ;->
Thanks again Raesh for the response.
Kat
>maybe bards could <skillfully> sing (the <skill-type> of sing based upon their combined theory and vocal) range
How about You sing in an adjective <range> voice? Seriously though, I think getting caught up on such small things like this (which is in the same boat as titles) while failing to see the huge gains we're getting (3.0, mojo retweak, etc) is missing the forest for the trees.
>Additionally, I was under the impression that DR is firstly a RP game where developing skills was part of the play, not entirely a "skill-based" game? Maybe that's where we're not seeing eye to eye?
Raesh already commented on this. You can circumvent and do what you want to RP out what you wan, yet mechanically you play by the rules GMs set.
I'm done on this thread.
How about You sing in an adjective <range> voice? Seriously though, I think getting caught up on such small things like this (which is in the same boat as titles) while failing to see the huge gains we're getting (3.0, mojo retweak, etc) is missing the forest for the trees.
>Additionally, I was under the impression that DR is firstly a RP game where developing skills was part of the play, not entirely a "skill-based" game? Maybe that's where we're not seeing eye to eye?
Raesh already commented on this. You can circumvent and do what you want to RP out what you wan, yet mechanically you play by the rules GMs set.
I'm done on this thread.
Keep in mind with the skill combine we're not going to have vocals + 3 other instruments + musical theory.
I can't really go into what we're going to have instead, since that's Socharis' project, and he'll announce it when it's ready.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
I can't really go into what we're going to have instead, since that's Socharis' project, and he'll announce it when it's ready.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
> Remember, we'll be getting a whole slew of Lore creation skills so we'll still have a bunch of stuff to get TDPs from at a prime rate!
They've also mentioned that they'd like to change the way TDPs are awarded, so that skillset size isn't as important and there isn't this drive to train all skills.
They've also mentioned that they'd like to change the way TDPs are awarded, so that skillset size isn't as important and there isn't this drive to train all skills.
>>They've also mentioned that they'd like to change the way TDPs are awarded, so that skillset size isn't as important and there isn't this drive to train all skills.
Indeed they have. It's one of the possible changes I'm looking forward to the most. Very curious to see what they do about TDPs.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
Indeed they have. It's one of the possible changes I'm looking forward to the most. Very curious to see what they do about TDPs.
Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus
>>Remember, we'll be getting a whole slew of Lore creation skills so we'll still have a bunch of stuff to get TDPs from at a prime rate!
Not if we're primarily in combat. But then again we'll also be getting a new lore combat skill, so meh.
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~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
Not if we're primarily in combat. But then again we'll also be getting a new lore combat skill, so meh.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
>>Tactics is going to be in lore?
To my knowledge, yes.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
To my knowledge, yes.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
>vocal stuff
I just hope there's a way to do maybe a one off change. I'd hate to have Caraamon end up squeeking when he sings his battle songs.
>I can't really go into what we're going to have instead, since that's Socharis' project, and he'll announce it when it's ready.
Ohhhh, now I know who to harass. Duh dun, duh dun, duhdunduhdunduhdun.
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
I just hope there's a way to do maybe a one off change. I'd hate to have Caraamon end up squeeking when he sings his battle songs.
>I can't really go into what we're going to have instead, since that's Socharis' project, and he'll announce it when it's ready.
Ohhhh, now I know who to harass. Duh dun, duh dun, duhdunduhdunduhdun.
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
>I just hope there's a way to do maybe a one off change. I'd hate to have Caraamon end up squeeking when he sings his battle songs.
There are currently no plans for non Bards to be able to change their voices, though I did tighten up the ranges that races naturally fell into since they... didn't make a lot of sense in some cases.
Worry not for your specific case. A 'Tog can only end up Contrabass/Contralto or Bass/Alto (depending on gender).
>Ohhhh, now I know who to harass. Duh dun, duh dun, duhdunduhdunduhdun.
'Cause you didn't know that already :P Come on now!
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
There are currently no plans for non Bards to be able to change their voices, though I did tighten up the ranges that races naturally fell into since they... didn't make a lot of sense in some cases.
Worry not for your specific case. A 'Tog can only end up Contrabass/Contralto or Bass/Alto (depending on gender).
>Ohhhh, now I know who to harass. Duh dun, duh dun, duhdunduhdunduhdun.
'Cause you didn't know that already :P Come on now!
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>There are currently no plans for non Bards to be able to change their voices,
Might I suggest you add hooks for the Shift system, even if it's not yet supported by Shift?
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Might I suggest you add hooks for the Shift system, even if it's not yet supported by Shift?
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
>>Might I suggest you add hooks for the Shift system, even if it's not yet supported by Shift?
Interesting idea.
Frankly, I don't want to get within a 1000 ft radius of the Shift system, but if it needs the hooks they're already there. Now go scare the empath people with that idea. LALALALALA I can't hear you!
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Interesting idea.
Frankly, I don't want to get within a 1000 ft radius of the Shift system, but if it needs the hooks they're already there. Now go scare the empath people with that idea. LALALALALA I can't hear you!
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Conflict folder is thisaway --> http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=21&topic=6
Feel free to move over there any time if you wanna keep this up. Thanks!
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Feel free to move over there any time if you wanna keep this up. Thanks!
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
As Raesh helpfully pointed out the conflict folder is that way.
I moved a post there. It's going to be happier there, conflicts is a nice quiet place for it to live. I hear they allow cats.
Enjoy!
Svafa
___
If you have questions or comments, please email me at DR-SVAFA@PLAY.NET or Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at
DR-SIDATURA@PLAY.NET or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl at DR-ANNWYL@PLAY.NET.
I moved a post there. It's going to be happier there, conflicts is a nice quiet place for it to live. I hear they allow cats.
Enjoy!
Svafa
___
If you have questions or comments, please email me at DR-SVAFA@PLAY.NET or Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at
DR-SIDATURA@PLAY.NET or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl at DR-ANNWYL@PLAY.NET.
