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Not sure if this is a bug or a feature, but some testing while hunting with partners seems that our AoE spells when CAST CREATURES are only hitting six targets in the room.
With barely a pause for breath, you neatly segue to the verse of the Phoenix's Pyre. Your skin warms tangibly as you bite off each of the words with a fierceness that seems to incite the very air around you to anger as flames are born to ride the heated currents.
The flames land a strong hit (6/22) to a mottled westanuryn's neck!
The mottled westanuryn is lightly stunned!
The flames land a solid hit (4/22) to a red-gold scaled atik'et's right leg!
The flames land a good hit (2/22) to a red-gold scaled atik'et's chest!
The flames land a good hit (2/22) to a mottled westanuryn's back!
The flames land a solid hit (4/22) to a mottled westanuryn's chest!
The flames land a solid hit (4/22) to a mottled westanuryn's head!
The mottled westanuryn is lightly stunned!
I've seen this occur with DEMA and ABAN, and perhaps related, my Empath also experienced this phenomenon with NB. Is this how CAST CREATURES operates?
Targeted magic doesn't work with CAST CREATURES currently. You have to use TARGET <spell> AT CREATURES followed by a CAST. It doesn't matter what combination of syntax you use, the only time you will hit more than just what is engaged is by specifying AT CREATURES during a TARGET verb that is used to prepare the spell, and not the CAST. E.g. PREPARE <spell>, TARGET CREATURES, and CAST does not work, and neither does TARGET <spell> and CAST CREATURES. Only TARGET <spell> AT CREATURES followed by any iteration of CAST will work. I tested this about 6 months or so ago, so if you really want I could track down the thread I posted it in. I'm pretty sure this is also the case for the AREA modifier too, but I don't use that one so my memory is rusty.
I'm not sure about cyclic spells or debilitation, since I don't have an AoE cyclic to test with and the only AoE debilitation I have (Mind Shout) is a completely indiscrimiate AoE that always hits everything in the room so this situation doesn't apply.
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I'm not sure about cyclic spells or debilitation, since I don't have an AoE cyclic to test with and the only AoE debilitation I have (Mind Shout) is a completely indiscrimiate AoE that always hits everything in the room so this situation doesn't apply.
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>Only TARGET <spell> AT CREATURES followed by any iteration of CAST will work.
I'm pretty sure the syntax is different for AOE spells.
"The syntax for AoE casting has historically been clumsy. We've streamlined it somewhat, to allow all offensive AoE spells to be CAST AREA/ALL, CAST ENGAGED, or CAST CREATURES." - GM Socharis, https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:Significant_Magic_Changes_(Magic_3.1)_-_11/13/2013_-_23:03
So the question here is why is CAST CREATURES only hitting 6 of 8 creatures, and is it intended? My guess is there's simply a cap on the amount you can hit.
I'd test a bit more myself but unfortunately it requires another person in the area to get enough creatures to test with.
I'm pretty sure the syntax is different for AOE spells.
"The syntax for AoE casting has historically been clumsy. We've streamlined it somewhat, to allow all offensive AoE spells to be CAST AREA/ALL, CAST ENGAGED, or CAST CREATURES." - GM Socharis, https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:Significant_Magic_Changes_(Magic_3.1)_-_11/13/2013_-_23:03
So the question here is why is CAST CREATURES only hitting 6 of 8 creatures, and is it intended? My guess is there's simply a cap on the amount you can hit.
I'd test a bit more myself but unfortunately it requires another person in the area to get enough creatures to test with.
> Targeted magic doesn't work with CAST CREATURES currently. You have to use TARGET <spell> AT CREATURES followed by a CAST. It doesn't matter what combination of syntax you use, the only time you will hit more than just what is engaged is by specifying AT CREATURES during a TARGET verb that is used to prepare the spell, and not the CAST. E.g. PREPARE <spell>, TARGET CREATURES, and CAST does not work, and neither does TARGET <spell> and CAST CREATURES. Only TARGET <spell> AT CREATURES followed by any iteration of CAST will work. I tested this about 6 months or so ago, so if you really want I could track down the thread I posted it in. I'm pretty sure this is also the case for the AREA modifier too, but I don't use that one so my memory is rusty.
None of this applies to cyclics, which is the example given. 'Cast Creature' is the correct syntax.
> Not sure if this is a bug or a feature, but some testing while hunting with partners seems that our AoE spells when CAST CREATURES are only hitting six targets in the room.
To prevent insanity when there are lots of creatures in a room, AoE spells will only hit a limited number of targets. Before this cap was implemented, casting AoEs during invasions caused multiple game crashes. I didn't know that 6 was the actual number, but that seems plausible.
None of this applies to cyclics, which is the example given. 'Cast Creature' is the correct syntax.
> Not sure if this is a bug or a feature, but some testing while hunting with partners seems that our AoE spells when CAST CREATURES are only hitting six targets in the room.
To prevent insanity when there are lots of creatures in a room, AoE spells will only hit a limited number of targets. Before this cap was implemented, casting AoEs during invasions caused multiple game crashes. I didn't know that 6 was the actual number, but that seems plausible.
6 hits is what it was capped at.
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Okay, did some quick testing with debilitation AoEs by taking advantage of the spell library on an alt, and 6 does appear to be the limit. CAST CREATURES with debilitation spells also does seem to be functioning correctly since when using only CAST it affects only the 4 engaged critters with you.
Testing with TM AoE also has a cap of 6 creatures. Mind Shout which always behaves as a CAST ALL also has a cap of 6 creatures (technically 5 creatures plus a player during the test.)
I assume cyclics are the same way.
Side note: I retested [TARGET <spell>/CAST CREATURES], [PREP <spell>/TARGET/CAST CREATURES], and [PREP <spell>/TARGET CREATURES] as well, and they are all working correctly now so that bug was squashed sometime in the last several months. Yay!
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Testing with TM AoE also has a cap of 6 creatures. Mind Shout which always behaves as a CAST ALL also has a cap of 6 creatures (technically 5 creatures plus a player during the test.)
I assume cyclics are the same way.
Side note: I retested [TARGET <spell>/CAST CREATURES], [PREP <spell>/TARGET/CAST CREATURES], and [PREP <spell>/TARGET CREATURES] as well, and they are all working correctly now so that bug was squashed sometime in the last several months. Yay!
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IIRC the game crashed a few times during invasion events from a bunch of AOEs going off in a room that was flooded with creatures so there's a mechanical reason to have a cap, but maybe there's room for discussion on what that cap has to be. When you have 20 things in the room and characters are in danger (if they're not it doesn't really matter what you cast) a spell that hits a random six is not super useful.
Uncap IMO.
#FreeTheAOE
Mazrian
Uncap IMO.
#FreeTheAOE
Mazrian
>>Overall damage was also cited as a reason for the cap IIRC. The number of hits on multi-strike AoE was also capped lower, 3 per target I think.
Yeah I think you're right.
Is that the most relevant way to gauge whether something like that is OP, though? Doing a little bit of damage to an arbitrarily large number of targets results in a lot of aggregate damage but no change in the tactical situation. IMO it seems OP on paper but in practice it isn't.
Mazrian
Yeah I think you're right.
Is that the most relevant way to gauge whether something like that is OP, though? Doing a little bit of damage to an arbitrarily large number of targets results in a lot of aggregate damage but no change in the tactical situation. IMO it seems OP on paper but in practice it isn't.
Mazrian
FWIW I'm way more concerned about crashing the game than I am about damage output. The cap could be raised, and we can talk about if it's wise, but it's never going to be room-wide without constraints again.*
*Barring radical backend changes that make the crash risk go away.
-Armifer
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*Barring radical backend changes that make the crash risk go away.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo
For me personally, no. I dropped the my AoE multi-strike (SMH) because of the strike cap. The vast majority of my time in DR is spent hunting 4 creatures, so I don't care much about the enemy cap. The strike cap made SMH really underwhelming for me, especially with that long target time.
As far as the creature cap goes, I don't mind it much if it prevents the game from crashing. I was in some of those invasions where people were going AoE happy on everything in the room. Man, that sucked. It took minutes for the game to catch up for me after the AoE stopped. If I logged out and back in and the invasion was still going on, I'd wind up in the same boat all over again.
As far as the creature cap goes, I don't mind it much if it prevents the game from crashing. I was in some of those invasions where people were going AoE happy on everything in the room. Man, that sucked. It took minutes for the game to catch up for me after the AoE stopped. If I logged out and back in and the invasion was still going on, I'd wind up in the same boat all over again.
>FWIW I'm way more concerned about crashing the game than I am about damage output. The cap could be raised, and we can talk about if it's wise, but it's never going to be room-wide without constraints again.*
Truthfully, I care less about ABAN/PYRE hitting everyone, and more interested in DALU hitting everyone. It's less about murderizing the entire room, and more about having a AoE debuffs be useful for group hunting. DALU hitting 6 critters when I'm hunting with two partners significantly reduces the utility of an AoE debuff that can be cast at all creatures.
>>FWIW I'm way more concerned about crashing the game than I am about damage output. The cap could be raised, and we can talk about if it's wise, but it's never going to be room-wide without constraints again.*<<
Could a safe cap be, say, 20 targets? That'd be enough to cover almost any scenario while still being definite.
Mazrian
Could a safe cap be, say, 20 targets? That'd be enough to cover almost any scenario while still being definite.
Mazrian
