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So, I've just started playing DR. I've played 2 weeks now and have been playing a moonmage.
However, I was convincing my wife to join as well and she suggested that she play a Paladin and I play a Cleric.
So, I'm considering it.
After looking through the spell list and abilities I had some questions.
Debilitation? What is the go to starting debilitation spell for clerics? It seems augmentation, warding, and utility won't be so difficult to train, but I'm not sure about options for debilitation.
Until I got rend on my moonmage I ran into a problem of not being able to recast my debilitation spells on the same creature until the spell effect wore off. Will I run into this problem with spells like soul sickness, malediction, etc?
I keep being told Theurgy is awful to train. How does it compare to Astrology?
I'm sure there's a lot more questions I have, but I can't think of what to ask. Thank you.
For the paladin...
1. Strong native defensive capabilities. Faster climb up the critter latter.
2. Glyphs are nice with some personal and support utility.
3. Not a great offensive option, but you can strengthen it.
4. Near immortal most of the time.
5. Armor is a weird skillset. You're only "doing it right" if you're doing the exact opposite of what you'd expect (mix and match pieces to insure they're all learning at once) - not mandatory, but you're missing out on a lot of stats if you don't.
For the cleric...
1. Strong magical combinations
2. Quests are mandatory (good or bad, depending on your view), and they require reagents to use.
3. Devotion/theurgy is also a pain to maintain. Not really hard, just annoying.
4. Strong magical offensive capabilities,
5. Near immortal, so long as all of your spells are up and you're fighting undead.
6. Very strong utility and debilitation spells, but you're going to have to use your spirit as a resource rather than a treasure.
---
Frankly, cleric is a great all around choice, but paladins are in a decent position if the guild lore appeals to you. Try out both. Play both to 10th-15th circle. See which one "feels" better.
Cleric debilitation option at low level is basically soul sickness (SICK). It has a relatively short duration (a few seconds) so it's pretty easy to continually recast.
For your first few levels, I'd suggest:
1: MPP (barriers are still grossly overpowered pending the review)
2: bless (you need it for certain theurgy things, blessing water, etc.)
3: Centering (it's...ok. Pre-req anyway)
4: Sick
Now, that leaves you without a TM spell, but a STRA scroll can be invoked at level 0, so I'd just use that from 1-5 or 1-10.
Theurgy: I was a huge hater, but after I played with it a while, it's pretty meh. At level 1-5, you'll basically lock theurgy doing rituals (cleaning altars, pray, recite, dance, incense, pour wine, kiss altar).
After that, you just need to start throwing in the repeatable rituals like Eluned's water. Once you hit 30 and get Meraud's, theurgy is flat out easy mode. Commune once an hour and lock the skill, then do a couple of rituals to restore the devotion.
Theurgy is onerous in that it's more complex than astrology or elementalism because it's a dual part system. You have to build devotion (RT and items required) which has a separate pool, timers, and a drift-to-neutral mechanic, then you have to consume that devotion to generate theurgy experience. Which also requires RT, items, has timers, etc. So compared to WM's 'path focus X, cast spells' it's blech. But in reality once you get used to it, it's fine.
I played a cleric for a long time, and in current DR they're super powerful. It's completely different from MMs though, despite being magic prime. If you want a guild that has good synergies with a Paladin, I'd actually suggest bard (they pair well with anyone), or ranger/thief (they cover the stealth, sniping, etc. aspects). I've always liked the 'I'm a blade of Chadatru, but I fight for the light from the darkness' kind of thief approach. Heck, even a MM should have some good synergy with a Paladin; a Paladin is the heavy tank, and the MM is the travel system bringing that weapons system to bear on people.
I kinda think Paladin+Cleric is too cutesy cookie cutter, and there's a ton of overlap without any really good synergy. Paladins can use cleric spells and vice versa (on scrolls).
For your first few levels, I'd suggest:
1: MPP (barriers are still grossly overpowered pending the review)
2: bless (you need it for certain theurgy things, blessing water, etc.)
3: Centering (it's...ok. Pre-req anyway)
4: Sick
Now, that leaves you without a TM spell, but a STRA scroll can be invoked at level 0, so I'd just use that from 1-5 or 1-10.
Theurgy: I was a huge hater, but after I played with it a while, it's pretty meh. At level 1-5, you'll basically lock theurgy doing rituals (cleaning altars, pray, recite, dance, incense, pour wine, kiss altar).
After that, you just need to start throwing in the repeatable rituals like Eluned's water. Once you hit 30 and get Meraud's, theurgy is flat out easy mode. Commune once an hour and lock the skill, then do a couple of rituals to restore the devotion.
Theurgy is onerous in that it's more complex than astrology or elementalism because it's a dual part system. You have to build devotion (RT and items required) which has a separate pool, timers, and a drift-to-neutral mechanic, then you have to consume that devotion to generate theurgy experience. Which also requires RT, items, has timers, etc. So compared to WM's 'path focus X, cast spells' it's blech. But in reality once you get used to it, it's fine.
I played a cleric for a long time, and in current DR they're super powerful. It's completely different from MMs though, despite being magic prime. If you want a guild that has good synergies with a Paladin, I'd actually suggest bard (they pair well with anyone), or ranger/thief (they cover the stealth, sniping, etc. aspects). I've always liked the 'I'm a blade of Chadatru, but I fight for the light from the darkness' kind of thief approach. Heck, even a MM should have some good synergy with a Paladin; a Paladin is the heavy tank, and the MM is the travel system bringing that weapons system to bear on people.
I kinda think Paladin+Cleric is too cutesy cookie cutter, and there's a ton of overlap without any really good synergy. Paladins can use cleric spells and vice versa (on scrolls).
>Theurgy is onerous in that it's more complex than astrology or elementalism because it's a dual part system. You have to build devotion (RT and items required) which has a separate pool, timers, and a drift-to-neutral mechanic, then you have to consume that devotion to generate theurgy experience. Which also requires RT, items, has timers, etc. So compared to WM's 'path focus X, cast spells' it's blech. But in reality once you get used to it, it's fine.
I actually think Theurgy and Astrology are quite comparable in training paradigms. Both require building up an ability fuel (Devotion vs prediction pools), to then do a thing (Use a Commune or making a Prediction). Theurgy is sort of limited by altars, and sucks until you pick up Merauds Commune, then it's a breeze, and Astrology is sort of limited by sky availability, and sucks until you pick up Event Prediction. They're both pretty easy and reasonable to train all told, and just represent time sinks specific to the guild, which I feel is fine.
>but you're going to have to use your spirit as a resource rather than a treasure.
Meh, EF isn't a requirement.
@Zed - Clerics require more combat training than a Moonie, but that's about it. Clerics are in a phenomenal place right now, arguably being the toughest guild in game.
>Theurgy is onerous in that it's more complex than astrology
Having characters in both guilds, I really disagree with that! Theurgy is very simple and straightforward. Use devotion, earn devotion. Commune, rituals. Commune, rituals. The rituals themselves can be as complex as you like (I enjoy them all), but there are a lot of really simple things to do--clean an altar, kill an undead thing, dance a few times, whatever. Learning any new system can be tough, but theurgy is very simple at the heart of it. You have one pool to fill, a RT-free way to check the pool, and you don't even need the communes part of the cycle for a few circles, you just learn the rituals.
Astrology works best if you know what heavenly bodies fill what pools and make sure to use the pools as they fill, and don't waste your time overfilling, and make sure wait out the invisible timer so you don't observe too often. And if you really want to manage it well, you track what bodies are up for a while or going to be up soon so you don't use all your lore pool at a time when you're totally unable to fill the lore pool, e.g. Remembering which moon/constellation/blah fills what pool is the hardest part for me (I have a reminder script so I can check). And even checking how far which pools are filled has an irritating roundtime associated with it. It's super, super hard to train when you're a novice, too, if you signed up at a time when the weather is bad (I joined in a stormy spring, so getting enough astrology to get PG was a boring matter of sitting in a ton of classes).
Having characters in both guilds, I really disagree with that! Theurgy is very simple and straightforward. Use devotion, earn devotion. Commune, rituals. Commune, rituals. The rituals themselves can be as complex as you like (I enjoy them all), but there are a lot of really simple things to do--clean an altar, kill an undead thing, dance a few times, whatever. Learning any new system can be tough, but theurgy is very simple at the heart of it. You have one pool to fill, a RT-free way to check the pool, and you don't even need the communes part of the cycle for a few circles, you just learn the rituals.
Astrology works best if you know what heavenly bodies fill what pools and make sure to use the pools as they fill, and don't waste your time overfilling, and make sure wait out the invisible timer so you don't observe too often. And if you really want to manage it well, you track what bodies are up for a while or going to be up soon so you don't use all your lore pool at a time when you're totally unable to fill the lore pool, e.g. Remembering which moon/constellation/blah fills what pool is the hardest part for me (I have a reminder script so I can check). And even checking how far which pools are filled has an irritating roundtime associated with it. It's super, super hard to train when you're a novice, too, if you signed up at a time when the weather is bad (I joined in a stormy spring, so getting enough astrology to get PG was a boring matter of sitting in a ton of classes).
It is perhaps more accurate to say that astrology can be more complex than theurgy (and I would agree with that), but isn't by force (you can, for example, brute force it).
Theurgy is simply onerous by nature of existing, working two independent pools with variable independent timers, and various item requirements, as well as specific location requirements.
Astrology, despite being a more complex system overall, is less of a pain in the rear, usually. USUALLY.
I'm making these comparisons for low level (1-29) where astrology is limited to pretty simplistic mechanics, and devotion/theurgy are at their worst, because that was the range the original poster was asking about.
Post 30, theurgy becomes about as 'difficult' to train as summoning honestly. It's a minor hassle, but not as irritating as pre-30. On the flip side, astrology simply gets more complex because you have to jump through more hoops to fill pools correctly, if I understand it.
Theurgy is simply onerous by nature of existing, working two independent pools with variable independent timers, and various item requirements, as well as specific location requirements.
Astrology, despite being a more complex system overall, is less of a pain in the rear, usually. USUALLY.
I'm making these comparisons for low level (1-29) where astrology is limited to pretty simplistic mechanics, and devotion/theurgy are at their worst, because that was the range the original poster was asking about.
Post 30, theurgy becomes about as 'difficult' to train as summoning honestly. It's a minor hassle, but not as irritating as pre-30. On the flip side, astrology simply gets more complex because you have to jump through more hoops to fill pools correctly, if I understand it.
As much as I complain about Theurgy it's really not hard to train with truffenyi, meraud and elune(1). The difficult part comes with keeping your devotion up enough to use them. Also keeping incense in stock for meraud. I still wish with higher ranks in Theurgy we could bypass the need for ritual components.
> I still wish with higher ranks in Theurgy we could bypass the need for ritual components.
At the very least create a "lockpick ring" type of bag for clerics. Make it a quest or otherwise hard to get item. Let it hold 100 sticks incense, 100 parts of holy oil, 100 parts of holy water, reduce the weight, count as a single item, and put flint on the outside.
>>It's more than EF, and this isn't a jab at clerics. It's a just difference in how they play. Auspice, Vigil, SS, CHS, EF, BF, AE, Infuse (memories), and SA all fuel or feed on spirit.
The claim though was that you need to use Spirit as a resource. The only spells of those that you listed that use spirit as a resource are EF, BF AE and SA. I'm not going to include Infuse (memories) in that because you're only going to use that while you're dead and you're going to have to regain some spirit anyway.
>>At the very least create a "lockpick ring" type of bag for clerics. Make it a quest or otherwise hard to get item. Let it hold 100 sticks incense, 100 parts of holy oil, 100 parts of holy water, reduce the weight, count as a single item, and put flint on the outside.
I'd definitely settle for this.
The claim though was that you need to use Spirit as a resource. The only spells of those that you listed that use spirit as a resource are EF, BF AE and SA. I'm not going to include Infuse (memories) in that because you're only going to use that while you're dead and you're going to have to regain some spirit anyway.
>>At the very least create a "lockpick ring" type of bag for clerics. Make it a quest or otherwise hard to get item. Let it hold 100 sticks incense, 100 parts of holy oil, 100 parts of holy water, reduce the weight, count as a single item, and put flint on the outside.
I'd definitely settle for this.
> The claim though was that you need to use Spirit as a resource. The only spells of those that you listed that use spirit as a resource are EF, BF AE and SA. I'm not going to include Infuse (memories) in that because you're only going to use that while you're dead and you're going to have to regain some spirit anyway.
I normally wouldn't argue semantics, but it feels fitting in a text base game. My exact words were: "you're going to have to use your spirit as a resource rather than a treasure." I stand by this. Giving yourself more resources (CHS/SS/Ausp) to fuel things with the resource (Infuse*, MF*, Vigil**, SA, EF/BF, AE )
* I do count infuse. If you let your spirit get too low because you used it for other things then you can't infuse yourself. You need to use infuse yourself. Likewise with MF. You can't rezz if you died a spirit death.
** You skipped over this, but you funnel your spirit health into someone else.
This all makes spirit a resource.
Everyone else treats spirit like a treasure. It's something they like, but it's more or less ignored until they no longer have it.
I normally wouldn't argue semantics, but it feels fitting in a text base game. My exact words were: "you're going to have to use your spirit as a resource rather than a treasure." I stand by this. Giving yourself more resources (CHS/SS/Ausp) to fuel things with the resource (Infuse*, MF*, Vigil**, SA, EF/BF, AE )
* I do count infuse. If you let your spirit get too low because you used it for other things then you can't infuse yourself. You need to use infuse yourself. Likewise with MF. You can't rezz if you died a spirit death.
** You skipped over this, but you funnel your spirit health into someone else.
This all makes spirit a resource.
Everyone else treats spirit like a treasure. It's something they like, but it's more or less ignored until they no longer have it.
>This all makes spirit a resource.
I think it's a silly argument.
Most players don't do a lot of PvP, which knocks out SA. AE is numerically inferior to horn or FoU, for sustained damage outside PvP, so we'll knock that out too. BF is a modification of EF, and I don't think many players actually use BF/EF anyway (I've known 1 who used it regularly, I think).
Basically I feel like you're making a huge deal out of something the average player could miss entirely.
I think it's a silly argument.
Most players don't do a lot of PvP, which knocks out SA. AE is numerically inferior to horn or FoU, for sustained damage outside PvP, so we'll knock that out too. BF is a modification of EF, and I don't think many players actually use BF/EF anyway (I've known 1 who used it regularly, I think).
Basically I feel like you're making a huge deal out of something the average player could miss entirely.
I'll start out with a RP standpoint. A very old friend of mine and I agreed that a Paladin and Cleric combo was fantastic. Granted, later in life it is really a personal choice but they do very well together hunting undead/cursed creatures.
Mechanically, Clerics are very easy to level once you get over the very first Theurgy hump. Folks in this thread have already spelled out how to get it done, so I'd suggest you heed their advice. That being said, once you get the ability to use Meraud's it becomes very, very easy. I train it only in combat. Of course, I also mostly live in combat but that is another story.
My cycle goes like this, keeping in mind that there is a timer to rituals and communes:
Eluned's commune
Meraud's commune
Pilgrim Badge
Prayer
Recite
Dance
Prayer bead
All rituals performed on individual CDs. I refresh my communes as they expire. Since I only hunt cursed/undead mobs, I get the devotion boost from killing them (also on a cooldown). This keeps me one step below max devotion pretty much without any concern ever and keeps Theurgy at max learning rate.
The only downtime required is refreshing your store of incense, holy water and carving blocks as required. It isn't very notable.
Do note that if you choose to pursue the course of hunting only cursed/undead, Shard+Hib offers you the only viable hunting tree that will give you both HUNT access and skinnable creatures from 0-1750 or whatever. If you get down around Shard, I'll cheerfully offer to teach Theurgy anytime. Gweth for Shaidval and I'll meet you in Triage!
Usually when I observe people PvPing it is a problem with their stat assignment being much less than their opponent, and more often than not their opponent has higher skills than they were expecting. - Kodius
Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time. - Sun Tzu
Mechanically, Clerics are very easy to level once you get over the very first Theurgy hump. Folks in this thread have already spelled out how to get it done, so I'd suggest you heed their advice. That being said, once you get the ability to use Meraud's it becomes very, very easy. I train it only in combat. Of course, I also mostly live in combat but that is another story.
My cycle goes like this, keeping in mind that there is a timer to rituals and communes:
Eluned's commune
Meraud's commune
Pilgrim Badge
Prayer
Recite
Dance
Prayer bead
All rituals performed on individual CDs. I refresh my communes as they expire. Since I only hunt cursed/undead mobs, I get the devotion boost from killing them (also on a cooldown). This keeps me one step below max devotion pretty much without any concern ever and keeps Theurgy at max learning rate.
The only downtime required is refreshing your store of incense, holy water and carving blocks as required. It isn't very notable.
Do note that if you choose to pursue the course of hunting only cursed/undead, Shard+Hib offers you the only viable hunting tree that will give you both HUNT access and skinnable creatures from 0-1750 or whatever. If you get down around Shard, I'll cheerfully offer to teach Theurgy anytime. Gweth for Shaidval and I'll meet you in Triage!
Usually when I observe people PvPing it is a problem with their stat assignment being much less than their opponent, and more often than not their opponent has higher skills than they were expecting. - Kodius
Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time. - Sun Tzu
