> And a semi-related question, do stat bonuses in general work this way? You need a certain minimum stat to get the maximum stat bonus?

Sorta.

In 3.1, spells provide bonuses (to both stats and skills) as a percentage of your base value. Since the stats buffed by Benediction are outside the cleric SoI, the bonuses will scale up to 15% based on the amount of mana you cast it at.

>> In 3.1, spells provide bonuses (to both stats and skills) as a percentage of your base value. Since the stats buffed by Benediction are outside the cleric SoI, the bonuses will scale up to 15% based on the amount of mana you cast it at.

>>> Hmmmm. So I'll only see +15 stats at max mana and 100 stats? Or +4.5 stats at 30 stats? Seems a bit... underwhelming.

> Minor correction. Though Benediction does not cap the stat boosts dependent on original stat levels, the core stat boosting stuff does, though it ends up being at far >smaller numbers than folks were used to in 2.0. In all likelihood, if you can cap Benediction but are losing out stat points from the stat cap, then you have been seriously >ignoring some important stats.
>AGM Ricinus
>Dev Systems
>Cleric Advocate

I ran across this post on Epedia. I don't know the original question and don't quite understand what he was saying. But maybe it helps?

What Illiena said is correct.

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<<In 3.0, spell bonuses worked on a different formula: scaled up to 50% based on mana*, but capped at +15 for stats or +100 for skills.

Slight correction: scaled up to 30% capped at 15 or 100. I.e. once a skill reached 334 ranks or a stat reached 50 then you no longer gained any increase in buff size. It was a poor situation, so they lowered the percent soft cap and eliminated the absolute cap.

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> Slight correction: scaled up to 30% capped at 15 or 100.

30% not 50%? Good to know. I never measured, but was just assuming because debuffs scaled to 50%. Those I measured.

>> I have 105 agility/reflex and in-sphere buffs for both, meaning I get +21 in the new system.

>> Keep in mind that combat is multiplicative. So if buffs had a hard cap like they used to, the value of your buff would dwindle away as that hard cap became a smaller and smaller fraction of your ranks/stats. Conversely, +10% is equally good no matter how many ranks you have.

Yeah, its just kind of unfortunate for stats you won't take to 100 for a long time. Not to mention the low end. Benediction giving +3/+3 at 30 stats is silly and I'm wondering if its even worth casting at this point.

There's a lot of incorrect math going on in this thread.

Stat boosters are 2-20% (based on potency). Out of Sphere drops this by 25% (And it so happens that all of Benedictions boosts are out of sphere for clerics.)

Additionally, Benediction's potency is halved if you aren't a cleric. If you are a cleric it ranges from 50-100% of the full bonus depending on your devotion.

-Raesh

"The trouble with atheism, is that it offers a limited range of curses.” - Two Serpents Rise

>> There's a lot of incorrect math going on in this thread.

>> Stat boosters are 2-20% (based on potency). Out of Sphere drops this by 25% (And it so happens that all of Benedictions boosts are out of sphere for clerics.)

>> Additionally, Benediction's potency is halved if you aren't a cleric. If you are a cleric it ranges from 50-100% of the full bonus depending on your devotion.

Right so...

20% * .75 = 15%
Assuming you have 25 reflex at this time and 100% potency (not sure this even matters casting at 25 mana?) the maximum bonus you can get is:

25*.15 * 1 (devotion) = 3.75 reflex.

> commune
After a moment, you see a silent vision of your god, radiating forth with a powerful divine brilliance. (12/16 devotion level)

204 holy
197 augmenation
25 mana (near max cast)
27 strength
25 agility
> cast bene
You feel the divinity seep from your bones as the previous blessing of Kertigen wanes.
You suddenly feel more limber, your reflexes charged with a faint energy.
Suddenly your muscles flood with energy, singing with a faint vigor.

+3 Agility
+3 Strength

I would laugh but it's too terrible to even laugh.

And if i let my devotion drop? +1 bonus!

At least benediction is 3 stats later on. What about the single stat only spells like Courage? Even with 20% its... meh (with low level stats). What about stats that people don't train to 100? I thought the whole point of out of sphere spells were to help shore up weaknesses. Strength bonus will be stuck at +6 if i don't train past 40 strength? And my 30 charisma is only going to get a +6 from Auspice even at 100 mana casts because I didn't train charisma to 100?

It just seems odd to handicap stat bonuses when you really need them the most. Was it so bad giving +15 reflex at 50 reflex? Because... at 100 reflex/agility, am I going really notice 115? Isn't there diminishing return on stats? Do I want to wait 5 years for the spell to be good?

Even IOTS on my moon mage with 40 agility and 50 reflex will give a total bonus of... +6 reflex and +7 agility. Where my seers sense will easily give +100 Evasion.

At the very least, stat based Spheres of Influence were designed for Magic 3.0 where stat bonuses capped at 50. Now that you need stats to 100, only 3 stats in the spheres of influence seems quite small.

I'd rather we take a long hard look at this and be like... this was a bad idea. Training a stat until 100 takes so absurdly long its just...wow. The impact on the younger crowd is pretty staggering too. Can you imagine getting your brand new spell and going... YAY....wait... +2 reflex? LOL. that would have cost me 80 TDP. Thanks, no thanks spell.

>> We use the same system for skill caps.

>> But I get it. You don't like spells you need to grow into, and because of that you favor hard caps vs soft
>> caps. That's fine and it's nothing specific to benediction.

Skills and stats are completely different.

I'm not offended by growth, but when stat spells are essentially useless when you get it, that's where I see fault. I'd rather it ramp up to 15 by 50 stats and then hit 30 at 100. If you wanted growth to be a thing.

And yeah you are right, it's not a benediction issue.

>Is there a minimum stat requirement to receive a certain bonus?
This definitely was a thing with Benediction (and part of me thinks it is still a thing given the varying strengths of the three stats being boosted and the relative gap in my training of them.)

<<Skills and stats are completely different.

>>> They're just a difference of scale. Every single skill check in the game is modified by stats, many of which are linear. E.g. effective skill = skill + x * stat.

You aren't taking things into account like what stats do, how they train, TDP cost, racial modifiers, etc. They could scale in combat exactly the same way and still be completely different.

For example, take my gnome. It's completely unrealistic to expect him to ever have 100 stamina, let alone 50. So any +Stamina spells on that racial are going to be WORSE then a different race.

Lets take another example:
Assume all in SOI.

200 TM Substratum vs 30 Int (Mental Focus) vs 30 Wis (Divine Guidance) vs 30 Discipline (Marshal Order)

I can choose: +40 TM which increases Damage/Accuracy/Prep Time(for lower mana)/Max Mana in Spell

Or...

+6 Int (Increases TM damage, decreases debilitation exp, SvS contest success, other stuff, No exp related bonuses)
OR
+6 Wis (Increase TM Damage, decreases debilitation exp, SvS contest success, other stuff, No exp related bonuses)
OR
+6 Disc (Increase TM Accuracy, increases shield use, other skills, SvS contest, other stuff, No exp related bonuses)


+40 TM is just far more powerful since it does all 3 of the above for TM purposes. I also may have TDP imbalances which vary the cost of the above stats. Also TM trains for "free." Stats cost TDPs.

>> /facepalm

>> I think you're worse at over-analyzing stuff than Tev. Thats quite the accomplishment. At least his information and conclusions are usually (technically) correct.

Over-analyzing to you perhaps. Those are literally the choices I made when choosing what scroll spell I wanted for TM. Sure, I could include every single variable that stats do that could possibly effect me, but most are not important for PvE or can be resolved by some other method. It's easier instead to say "Tm vs Tm."

You have a knack for disregarding pretty much everything I say, regardless of how specific my statement is, to come up with broad over sweeping generalization. Congratulations, feel free to ignore me at time.

This change brought back racial penalties, indirectly, to spells. Before, in 2.0 a gnome paladin could use courage to offset his weaknesses. In 3.0, the gnome could claw his way up to 50 stamina. Now? 100 stamina? No way.

And as far as I'm concerned, there is no growth because I won't be picking up any stat spells until at least 67/50 (15% soi/20% soi), in the specific stat OR if I run out of spell slots. There is much better spells to get.

What he said.

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