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Several years ago when it was acknowledged by everyone including GM's that clerics were sorely lacking in spells, I made a suggestion to try to fast track the implementation of useful clerical spells.
Essentially what I suggested then, and I suggest now was to copy the general concept and scope of some existing spells of other guilds and create new clerical spells that model themselves after the parameters of the existing spells. These would not be exact duplicates, but use the idea that if an existing spell has been approved for 'x' effects using 'y' mana with 'z' restrictions, approving another spell that has 'x-like' effects using 'y-similar' mana with 'z-similar' restrictions would be easier to code and get approval on than a spell that utilizes a wholly new concept. As an example of what I was thinking- take Swirling Winds- look at the boosts(soft and caps), duration and mana costs and create a new clerical spell that boosts say Parry and Multiple Ops instead of Parry and Evasion with similar boosts, duration and mana costs. Add some pretty clerical looks and we have a useful new clerical spell.
I was told at the time that Simu didn't like the idea of just copying spells, that they preferred to design unique new spells for guilds. In the years since then cleric spell developement has largely followed this. Harm Horde is certainly unique, with a developement history of what 3 or more years? EF is clearly unique. New Revelation is pretty unique.
But there have been a couple of developements that start to creep into that area. PS certainly has similar, but weaker effects than MB, and appears to have been modeled after it to a certain degree. AO is a parallel developement to the Moon Mage version, with different affects but similar concept.
In the last few months, it appears that there are spells being developed that are clearly modeled after existing spells. Cage of Light appears to have been closely modeled after MPP. Break Branch appears to have been modeled after PS. It appears that the new dazzle will be designed to have similar affects as PS. Therefore I would suggest once again: design several clerical spells using existing spells as models to help round out the clerical spell book and provide senior clerics with useful spells for their many empty spell slots.
My suggestions:
1) As mentioned above- a SW clone, but boosting Parry and Multi Ops instead. I would be fine with a general shield boost instead of the MO boost, or make the spell more cleric like by having it boost parry and shield but add in a MO boost against undead.
2) A cheetah speed clone- my understanding is that this is a held mana spell that boosts reflex and agility. Make a similar spell that boosts Discipline and Stamina. Straight held mana version would work exactly the same as CS, but a low level cast could be infused to be stronger. Putting the spell into an OM could be infused to be up to full strength.
3) An area affect de-boost utilizing the model of frostbite but with different affects reflecting clerical deboosts- stunning, or malediction or coz.
4) A Sheer clone, but with different drawbacks and backlash.
5) a weapon boost similar in scale to Shadows or Clear Vision- or if that is too complicated(weapons boosts seem to be very restricted) a hiding boost similar to Shadows or Rising Mists.
This still leaves room for design of plenty of unique clerical spells that will take years of developement, but would be a way to round out our spellbook fast and provide those clerics with empty spells slots something to consider, and should take far less time to develope and approve than new unique spells.
Flavius
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
<<5) a weapon boost similar in scale to Shadows or Clear Vision- or if that is too complicated(weapons boosts seem to be very restricted) a hiding boost similar to Shadows or Rising Mists.
I am confused, sorry.
Shadows and CV boost weapons? If so, that is very surprising news to me. If not, how can we draw such parallel?
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill
And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z
I am confused, sorry.
Shadows and CV boost weapons? If so, that is very surprising news to me. If not, how can we draw such parallel?
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill
And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z
<<5) a weapon boost similar in scale to Shadows or Clear Vision- or if that is too complicated(weapons boosts seem to be very restricted) a hiding boost similar to Shadows or Rising Mists.
"Shadows and CV boost weapons? If so, that is very surprising news to me. If not, how can we draw such parallel? "
note that I said: "a weapon boost similar in scale", not similar in effects. I drew the parallel because the weapons skill set is to the clerics as the survival skill set is to Moon Mages, and we currently have zilch, nada, no spells for the weapons skill set(I do not overlook our offensive commune, which I greatly admire, but that is not the same a specific weapon boost, nor is it a spell). I would like to see a weapons boost that boosts skills to the same degree that Shadows or CV boosts their skills(i.e. the same hard and soft caps). The complication of course is that each of those boost a single spell, while the weapon skill set has dozens of actual weapon skills. However, I think that some other guilds have had restricted weapon boosts that work. In our case, I could see boosting either our highest weapon or the weapon in hand when the spell was cast.
The whole idea I was trying to outline was for using existing spells as models to determine the range of boosts, mana requirements and restrictions. What do you think of the general idea?
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
"Shadows and CV boost weapons? If so, that is very surprising news to me. If not, how can we draw such parallel? "
note that I said: "a weapon boost similar in scale", not similar in effects. I drew the parallel because the weapons skill set is to the clerics as the survival skill set is to Moon Mages, and we currently have zilch, nada, no spells for the weapons skill set(I do not overlook our offensive commune, which I greatly admire, but that is not the same a specific weapon boost, nor is it a spell). I would like to see a weapons boost that boosts skills to the same degree that Shadows or CV boosts their skills(i.e. the same hard and soft caps). The complication of course is that each of those boost a single spell, while the weapon skill set has dozens of actual weapon skills. However, I think that some other guilds have had restricted weapon boosts that work. In our case, I could see boosting either our highest weapon or the weapon in hand when the spell was cast.
The whole idea I was trying to outline was for using existing spells as models to determine the range of boosts, mana requirements and restrictions. What do you think of the general idea?
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
In other words, he wants a spell that caps around 65 and gives as many ranks in weapon X.
Basically, it's kinda like he's asking for Rutilor's Edge, but not.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
Basically, it's kinda like he's asking for Rutilor's Edge, but not.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
Of the recent spell releases...
Branch Break = Phelim's Sanction
Abeyant Orison = Moonblade with spell battery function (these were released simultaneously)
Aegis of Granite is similar in design to Shield of Light, but this one is functionally different enough.
Cage of Light = Minor Physical Protection (this one is pretty blatant IMO)
There was indeed a thread a while back with GMs commenting that copy/pasting spell functions was generally frowned upon, and since there have been several spells released that heavily mimic Cleric spells.
Saying this is anything more than coincidence would be a stretch. However, I would point to MF's new function (flushing poison and disease and burns, which prior to this was solely an Empath's job) as a counter-example: Clerics getting something which has traditionally belonged to another guild.
I am inclined to think this trend is simply a result of no major Cleric spell pushes since Zeyurn-Armifer-Dartenian took over large areas of game development. Many of these GMs have spoken about breaking down guild territory before; I'm sure a Cleric spell release that made sense would not be denied because it was somewhat similar to a spell another guild possesses.
Personally I feel that Clerics remain the largest untapped magic primary guild. I personally feel there remains too much potential for unique Cleric spell development (spiritual combat, expanded meta-magic functions like damaging attunement with TM, a couple more TM versus living spells) before I would start worrying about copy/pasting spells just to fill slots.
That said, I would absolutely love a Clerical parry/MO booster of some sort. Clerics are very flashy but outside of undead combat our combat buffs are comparable to Moon Mages. Given that our reqs more heavily mirror Warrior Mages, I would like to see more focus on melee carnage. Then again, I want that for every guild.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
Branch Break = Phelim's Sanction
Abeyant Orison = Moonblade with spell battery function (these were released simultaneously)
Aegis of Granite is similar in design to Shield of Light, but this one is functionally different enough.
Cage of Light = Minor Physical Protection (this one is pretty blatant IMO)
There was indeed a thread a while back with GMs commenting that copy/pasting spell functions was generally frowned upon, and since there have been several spells released that heavily mimic Cleric spells.
Saying this is anything more than coincidence would be a stretch. However, I would point to MF's new function (flushing poison and disease and burns, which prior to this was solely an Empath's job) as a counter-example: Clerics getting something which has traditionally belonged to another guild.
I am inclined to think this trend is simply a result of no major Cleric spell pushes since Zeyurn-Armifer-Dartenian took over large areas of game development. Many of these GMs have spoken about breaking down guild territory before; I'm sure a Cleric spell release that made sense would not be denied because it was somewhat similar to a spell another guild possesses.
Personally I feel that Clerics remain the largest untapped magic primary guild. I personally feel there remains too much potential for unique Cleric spell development (spiritual combat, expanded meta-magic functions like damaging attunement with TM, a couple more TM versus living spells) before I would start worrying about copy/pasting spells just to fill slots.
That said, I would absolutely love a Clerical parry/MO booster of some sort. Clerics are very flashy but outside of undead combat our combat buffs are comparable to Moon Mages. Given that our reqs more heavily mirror Warrior Mages, I would like to see more focus on melee carnage. Then again, I want that for every guild.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
>I would like to see more focus on melee carnage.
For reference, Clerics are the only Weapon Secondary guild that never requires a second weapon. They're lore based over weapon based, while WM are weapon based over lore based. On a whole. All of my WM's lores are higher than my primary weapon. All but one are above my TM, actually...
Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus
For reference, Clerics are the only Weapon Secondary guild that never requires a second weapon. They're lore based over weapon based, while WM are weapon based over lore based. On a whole. All of my WM's lores are higher than my primary weapon. All but one are above my TM, actually...
Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus
>>Branch Break = Phelim's Sanction
I have trouble seeing the comparison beyond them both being disabling spells, and in that case comparing it to Mental Blast would be more intellectually honest. The niche for Branch Break is specific and unrelated to Phelim's Sanction's place as an all-purpose disabler.
>>Abeyant Orison = Moonblade with spell battery function (these were released simultaneously)
Abeyant Orison was conceived and partially written by a GM who is now long gone. Moonblade's new focus was conceived and developed independently, and Ssra informed me of AO at the almost literal 11th hour.
So, I shrugged, finished AO, and then eventually ripped out its buggy guts and used a slightly modified version of my own work in it. Between the two spells, Moonblade has primacy.
>>Aegis of Granite is similar in design to Shield of Light, but this one is functionally different enough.
This one I can't rebuke.
>>Cage of Light = Minor Physical Protection (this one is pretty blatant IMO)
The technical design has more in common with Scream Defiance than Minor Physical Protection, and the concept of the spell has been around for nearly ten years. Another case where the two spells are similar only insofar as they share the same common mechanic that was never Cleric exclusive to begin with.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
I have trouble seeing the comparison beyond them both being disabling spells, and in that case comparing it to Mental Blast would be more intellectually honest. The niche for Branch Break is specific and unrelated to Phelim's Sanction's place as an all-purpose disabler.
>>Abeyant Orison = Moonblade with spell battery function (these were released simultaneously)
Abeyant Orison was conceived and partially written by a GM who is now long gone. Moonblade's new focus was conceived and developed independently, and Ssra informed me of AO at the almost literal 11th hour.
So, I shrugged, finished AO, and then eventually ripped out its buggy guts and used a slightly modified version of my own work in it. Between the two spells, Moonblade has primacy.
>>Aegis of Granite is similar in design to Shield of Light, but this one is functionally different enough.
This one I can't rebuke.
>>Cage of Light = Minor Physical Protection (this one is pretty blatant IMO)
The technical design has more in common with Scream Defiance than Minor Physical Protection, and the concept of the spell has been around for nearly ten years. Another case where the two spells are similar only insofar as they share the same common mechanic that was never Cleric exclusive to begin with.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
>>They're lore based over weapon based, while WM are weapon based over lore based. On a whole. All of my WM's lores are higher than my primary weapon. All but one are above my TM, actually...
I wouldn't go so far as to say Clerics are focused more on lore than combat.
By circle 150 they have ~1500 ranks in combat reqs (1st weapon, armor, and parry with a paltry 50 shield ranks required till circle 30). This is not, of course, including the mandatory ~500 ranks of evasion (and probably shield as well) that would be needed to achieve 620 ranks in a weapon.
~1800 lore requirements including teaching and three other lores (the hard rank in teaching covers the first lore requirement as well so I'm not counting it twice).
All in all Clerics are rather well-balanced between Moon Mages (no direct combat requirements) and Warrior Mages (considerably more combat requirements). However, I think it fair to say that the Moon Mage combat buffs are equally powerful. Given the weapon and parry requirements, some sort of magic geared towards that aspect of the Cleric guild seems natural, whether it be in the form of rank boosts or whatever.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
I wouldn't go so far as to say Clerics are focused more on lore than combat.
By circle 150 they have ~1500 ranks in combat reqs (1st weapon, armor, and parry with a paltry 50 shield ranks required till circle 30). This is not, of course, including the mandatory ~500 ranks of evasion (and probably shield as well) that would be needed to achieve 620 ranks in a weapon.
~1800 lore requirements including teaching and three other lores (the hard rank in teaching covers the first lore requirement as well so I'm not counting it twice).
All in all Clerics are rather well-balanced between Moon Mages (no direct combat requirements) and Warrior Mages (considerably more combat requirements). However, I think it fair to say that the Moon Mage combat buffs are equally powerful. Given the weapon and parry requirements, some sort of magic geared towards that aspect of the Cleric guild seems natural, whether it be in the form of rank boosts or whatever.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
>>Scream Defiance
Scream Defiance did not exist until very recently. In DR terms it is almost brand new.
Naming of Tears also has a damage reduction aspect but it, too, is a relatively recent addition.
Cage of Light is a recent release.
Minor Physical Protection has been around for years. I don't think it fair to call it something the Cleric guild "owns" but I think it perfectly legitimate to point out that it was a function unique to Clerics for many years.
I obviously cannot speak for the mechanics behind it. However, you expend mana points for a damage reduction buff. They are, at least from the player perspective, almost exactly the same spell, only CoL has fluffy messaging and is a higher tier.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
Scream Defiance did not exist until very recently. In DR terms it is almost brand new.
Naming of Tears also has a damage reduction aspect but it, too, is a relatively recent addition.
Cage of Light is a recent release.
Minor Physical Protection has been around for years. I don't think it fair to call it something the Cleric guild "owns" but I think it perfectly legitimate to point out that it was a function unique to Clerics for many years.
I obviously cannot speak for the mechanics behind it. However, you expend mana points for a damage reduction buff. They are, at least from the player perspective, almost exactly the same spell, only CoL has fluffy messaging and is a higher tier.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
>>Minor Physical Protection has been around for years. I don't think it fair to call it something the Cleric guild "owns" but I think it perfectly legitimate to point out that it was a function unique to Clerics for many years.
Clerics and Barbarians, you mean. And the Clerics weren't first.
The point that spells and abilities sometimes replicate each other is taken; but the Clerics are one of the last guilds in the game in a position to complain about it.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
Clerics and Barbarians, you mean. And the Clerics weren't first.
The point that spells and abilities sometimes replicate each other is taken; but the Clerics are one of the last guilds in the game in a position to complain about it.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
For my own amusement, I ran some numbers. If we imposed a limit that no spell could use the same common mechanism as any other spell or ability, and that the first one to use that mechanism had primacy, the Cleric's Guild would lose 37.5% of its spells.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
Whoa Nelly.
This thread has gone from my suggesting revisiting my proposal to use existing spells as templates for new clerical spells, since it appears that this was no longer an issue, to an arguement that clerical spells are being copied, to Armifer noting that
"If we imposed a limit that no spell could use the same common mechanism as any other spell or ability, and that the first one to use that mechanism had primacy, the Cleric's Guild would lose 37.5% of its spells."
...which is just about the exact opposite of what I suggested and that this thread was supposed to be about.
So Armifer- great you came and gave feedback. Three posts to rebut players erroneous assertions but....any comment about the idea I posted? I mean its great that you are willing to clarify how spell developement actually came about, but I was trying to constructively start some dialogue with what I consider reasonable suggestions to expand the cleric guilds spell book.
Flavius
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
This thread has gone from my suggesting revisiting my proposal to use existing spells as templates for new clerical spells, since it appears that this was no longer an issue, to an arguement that clerical spells are being copied, to Armifer noting that
"If we imposed a limit that no spell could use the same common mechanism as any other spell or ability, and that the first one to use that mechanism had primacy, the Cleric's Guild would lose 37.5% of its spells."
...which is just about the exact opposite of what I suggested and that this thread was supposed to be about.
So Armifer- great you came and gave feedback. Three posts to rebut players erroneous assertions but....any comment about the idea I posted? I mean its great that you are willing to clarify how spell developement actually came about, but I was trying to constructively start some dialogue with what I consider reasonable suggestions to expand the cleric guilds spell book.
Flavius
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
>>So Armifer- great you came and gave feedback. Three posts to rebut players erroneous assertions but....any comment about the idea I posted?
I am uncertain if Clerics will receive more physical defense spells in the near future. It's already something that your spellbook treads, retreads, and paves over. However anti-magic spells, including a decent magic barrier, is still a glaring omission.
I would not be inclined to give Clerics a significant stat-booster that is OM-compatible, but another stat-booster in general is a fine idea.
Area-effect debuff or disabler is a fine idea, though I'd like to fiddle with Mind Shout before a Cleric equivalent.
Hiding boost is unlikely to happen, since the skill has no relevence to the guild and none of the forces a Cleric usually plays with would naturally lend itself to that. A weapon boost is not out of the question.
Along more general terms: The word "clone" wounds me. When we do have spell and abilities that share similar functions, or even the same backend system (damage reduction, TM, disablers), we try very hard to give each spell its own niche beyond just "different messaging." Mental Blast is not Halt is not Phelim's Sanction, each does the same general task with the same system, but has enough quirks of their own to make them vivid and distinct.
While your premise is that by mimicking other spells Clerics might get new spells faster, the truth is that often when we start treading old ground, it's cause to go slower and more carefully make fine distinctions between different concepts and abilities. There's a reason it took so long for Murrula's Flames to flush poisons and cure diseases, and it isn't because implementing this was technically challenging.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
I am uncertain if Clerics will receive more physical defense spells in the near future. It's already something that your spellbook treads, retreads, and paves over. However anti-magic spells, including a decent magic barrier, is still a glaring omission.
I would not be inclined to give Clerics a significant stat-booster that is OM-compatible, but another stat-booster in general is a fine idea.
Area-effect debuff or disabler is a fine idea, though I'd like to fiddle with Mind Shout before a Cleric equivalent.
Hiding boost is unlikely to happen, since the skill has no relevence to the guild and none of the forces a Cleric usually plays with would naturally lend itself to that. A weapon boost is not out of the question.
Along more general terms: The word "clone" wounds me. When we do have spell and abilities that share similar functions, or even the same backend system (damage reduction, TM, disablers), we try very hard to give each spell its own niche beyond just "different messaging." Mental Blast is not Halt is not Phelim's Sanction, each does the same general task with the same system, but has enough quirks of their own to make them vivid and distinct.
While your premise is that by mimicking other spells Clerics might get new spells faster, the truth is that often when we start treading old ground, it's cause to go slower and more carefully make fine distinctions between different concepts and abilities. There's a reason it took so long for Murrula's Flames to flush poisons and cure diseases, and it isn't because implementing this was technically challenging.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
<<note that I said: "a weapon boost similar in scale", not similar in effects. I drew the parallel because the weapons skill set is to the clerics as the survival skill set is to Moon Mages, and we currently have zilch, nada, no spells for the weapons skill set(I do not overlook our offensive commune, which I greatly admire, but that is not the same a specific weapon boost, nor is it a spell).
Thanks, that second sentence was what I needed. I saw the 'similar in scale' but couldn't understand how we went from a survival skill to a weapon skill. Now that I see it, it makes a lot more sense.
While I see the weapon secondary point, my first impulse is that clerics : lore :: war mages : weapons. It's just how I identify with them. So I would propose maybe some lore aligned spells, particularly when the mech split is done? It's tough to think of anything specific since lore is a little underdeveloped. Don't get me wrong, I love our recalls and humming hymns for devotion, but I'd like to see some spells in this area as well.
As for a stat booster, I would have guessed that a straight on stat boosting spell would be more powerful than a mana held spell that we put into an orb. There's limits to using held mana, even with OM. One can only stick so many spells into OM based on a character's skill, whereas a straight spell can be cast as needed. Also since clerics have benediction, a held mana stat booster would be functionally different. (side note, I'd kill for a discipline/stamina booster). Thanks for the discussion.
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill
And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z
Thanks, that second sentence was what I needed. I saw the 'similar in scale' but couldn't understand how we went from a survival skill to a weapon skill. Now that I see it, it makes a lot more sense.
While I see the weapon secondary point, my first impulse is that clerics : lore :: war mages : weapons. It's just how I identify with them. So I would propose maybe some lore aligned spells, particularly when the mech split is done? It's tough to think of anything specific since lore is a little underdeveloped. Don't get me wrong, I love our recalls and humming hymns for devotion, but I'd like to see some spells in this area as well.
As for a stat booster, I would have guessed that a straight on stat boosting spell would be more powerful than a mana held spell that we put into an orb. There's limits to using held mana, even with OM. One can only stick so many spells into OM based on a character's skill, whereas a straight spell can be cast as needed. Also since clerics have benediction, a held mana stat booster would be functionally different. (side note, I'd kill for a discipline/stamina booster). Thanks for the discussion.
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill
And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z
I personally think there's an issue that lies with "let's copy X and change it cosmetically so it fits the flavor of our guild."
If you're suggesting something because you think it makes sense for Clerics and it happens to be similar to another guild's spell or ability, that's one thing.
If you're just saying "hey give us Holy Moonblade" that's retarded and you shouldn't be surprised when a GM goes "uhh no" or just ignores you.
Rev. Reene
Idon: Oh wow, you got a send from Solomon? You must feel special.
Me: Special in the way the Tiananmen Square guy must have felt special, yeah.
If you're suggesting something because you think it makes sense for Clerics and it happens to be similar to another guild's spell or ability, that's one thing.
If you're just saying "hey give us Holy Moonblade" that's retarded and you shouldn't be surprised when a GM goes "uhh no" or just ignores you.
Rev. Reene
Idon: Oh wow, you got a send from Solomon? You must feel special.
Me: Special in the way the Tiananmen Square guy must have felt special, yeah.
>>37.5%
I think this just punctuates the need for the return of spiritual combat.
>>Clerics and Barbarians, you mean. And the Clerics weren't first.
Does one of the berserks actually reduce damage? I have suggested this as another perk for berserks many times but never received a response.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
I think this just punctuates the need for the return of spiritual combat.
>>Clerics and Barbarians, you mean. And the Clerics weren't first.
Does one of the berserks actually reduce damage? I have suggested this as another perk for berserks many times but never received a response.
*******
Doctor: Are you Alliance?
Early: Am I lion? Huh. I don't think of myself as a lion. But you might as well have a mighty roar!
>>Does one of the berserks actually reduce damage? I have suggested this as another perk for berserks many times but never received a response.
Not as such- But they do reduce vitality damage and give my little plat barb the boost she might need to clear a room when she's getting swarmed.
That being said, Barbarian berserks are very different beasts from clerical spells.
The mind behind...
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
Not as such- But they do reduce vitality damage and give my little plat barb the boost she might need to clear a room when she's getting swarmed.
That being said, Barbarian berserks are very different beasts from clerical spells.
The mind behind...
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
>>Not as such- But they do reduce vitality damage and give my little plat barb the boost she might need to clear a room when she's getting swarmed.
I've never seen a berserk reduce vitality damage. A lot of the berserks might provide boosts to stamina and in turn vitality but I've never seen or noticed any direct reduction from an incoming blow.
I suspect Armifer was referring to a few of our roars which reduce incoming offensive force. While mechanically they share a base idea they are worlds apart in terms of application. My roar lasts for less than a minute and the contests involved is nuts since it's a debuff being applied to the attacker. Spells like Cage of Light and MPP are self cast buffs and have no direct contest (as far as I can tell) when applying it to ones self.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
I've never seen a berserk reduce vitality damage. A lot of the berserks might provide boosts to stamina and in turn vitality but I've never seen or noticed any direct reduction from an incoming blow.
I suspect Armifer was referring to a few of our roars which reduce incoming offensive force. While mechanically they share a base idea they are worlds apart in terms of application. My roar lasts for less than a minute and the contests involved is nuts since it's a debuff being applied to the attacker. Spells like Cage of Light and MPP are self cast buffs and have no direct contest (as far as I can tell) when applying it to ones self.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
>>So I would propose maybe some lore aligned spells
The problem with this is that very few people can imagine themselves being lore-aligned, whereas many, many people can imagine themselves being pseudo-Paladins of dewm.
So I definitely agree that, after the Lore rewrite, this may be something interesting to explore.
A couple of years back, I posted a list of about 15 spell proposals that went completely ignored. <shrugs> I don't even remember them.
>>I think this just punctuates the need for the return of spiritual combat.
Which is supposedly happening.
Maybe next year. Is it even on the goals page?
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
The problem with this is that very few people can imagine themselves being lore-aligned, whereas many, many people can imagine themselves being pseudo-Paladins of dewm.
So I definitely agree that, after the Lore rewrite, this may be something interesting to explore.
A couple of years back, I posted a list of about 15 spell proposals that went completely ignored. <shrugs> I don't even remember them.
>>I think this just punctuates the need for the return of spiritual combat.
Which is supposedly happening.
Maybe next year. Is it even on the goals page?
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
Well Armifer thanks for your reply. Can't say I am surprised or shocked but it is always nice to get acknowledgement that someone read my post.
regarding individual points:
"It's already something that your spellbook treads, retreads, and paves over."
I don't really want to get into an arguement with you about this, and you can see behind the smoke and mirrors, so you must see something I don't but if we are talking spells only I don't see it. Except for PFE, which only works against undead, it seems to me that the War Mages have similar spells to each clerical defensive boost, and in addition have boosts to parry and multiple opps. I am not saying that Clerics need or deserve additional boosts, I am just saying that I still see room for additional boosts. Anyway- I know this argument isn't going to get me anywhere but for the last time(I will seriously try to stick to this) I will point out Clerics did have a parry and shield boost at one time, and were far from unbalancing the game by being a defensive juggernaut.
"I would not be inclined to give Clerics a significant stat-booster that is OM-compatible, but another stat-booster in general is a fine idea."
What is your vision of what type of spell would be OM-compatible for a future spell? Or should there be any?
"Hiding boost is unlikely to happen, since the skill has no relevence to the guild and none of the forces a Cleric usually plays with would naturally lend itself to that."
Overall I tend to agree. I think a weapon boost would make more sense.
"Along more general terms: The word "clone" wounds me. When we do have spell and abilities that share similar functions, or even the same backend system (damage reduction, TM, disablers), we try very hard to give each spell its own niche beyond just "different messaging." "
I hope I didn't use the word clones, if so my apology. My intent was to suggest spells with different niches, but with similar mechanisms to ease coding and approval. When I compared Phelim's Sanction to BB, it was only because a GM had mentioned that BB would be similar in power to PS.
Anyway, not much more to contribute. I enjoy playing the game as is. Flavius is at what I consider a sweet spot for a cleric. He has every clerical spell that I really, really want and two more that I look forward to picking up. I like our spells, use our offensive and defensive communes, enjoy what I do in game. A year or so from now I will have empty slots and hope that there will be additional spells by then that I will desire, but either way, I just keep plugging along.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
regarding individual points:
"It's already something that your spellbook treads, retreads, and paves over."
I don't really want to get into an arguement with you about this, and you can see behind the smoke and mirrors, so you must see something I don't but if we are talking spells only I don't see it. Except for PFE, which only works against undead, it seems to me that the War Mages have similar spells to each clerical defensive boost, and in addition have boosts to parry and multiple opps. I am not saying that Clerics need or deserve additional boosts, I am just saying that I still see room for additional boosts. Anyway- I know this argument isn't going to get me anywhere but for the last time(I will seriously try to stick to this) I will point out Clerics did have a parry and shield boost at one time, and were far from unbalancing the game by being a defensive juggernaut.
"I would not be inclined to give Clerics a significant stat-booster that is OM-compatible, but another stat-booster in general is a fine idea."
What is your vision of what type of spell would be OM-compatible for a future spell? Or should there be any?
"Hiding boost is unlikely to happen, since the skill has no relevence to the guild and none of the forces a Cleric usually plays with would naturally lend itself to that."
Overall I tend to agree. I think a weapon boost would make more sense.
"Along more general terms: The word "clone" wounds me. When we do have spell and abilities that share similar functions, or even the same backend system (damage reduction, TM, disablers), we try very hard to give each spell its own niche beyond just "different messaging." "
I hope I didn't use the word clones, if so my apology. My intent was to suggest spells with different niches, but with similar mechanisms to ease coding and approval. When I compared Phelim's Sanction to BB, it was only because a GM had mentioned that BB would be similar in power to PS.
Anyway, not much more to contribute. I enjoy playing the game as is. Flavius is at what I consider a sweet spot for a cleric. He has every clerical spell that I really, really want and two more that I look forward to picking up. I like our spells, use our offensive and defensive communes, enjoy what I do in game. A year or so from now I will have empty slots and hope that there will be additional spells by then that I will desire, but either way, I just keep plugging along.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
>>I suspect Armifer was referring to a few of our roars which reduce incoming offensive force. While mechanically they share a base idea they are worlds apart in terms of application.
What Armifer is referring to is that among other things, some Berserks use the exact same damage reduction system that Minor Physical Protection does. They use it subtly different ways, but then so does CoL and MPP too. As far as I am aware, the system was invented in the first place for Barbarian supernatural ability support.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
What Armifer is referring to is that among other things, some Berserks use the exact same damage reduction system that Minor Physical Protection does. They use it subtly different ways, but then so does CoL and MPP too. As far as I am aware, the system was invented in the first place for Barbarian supernatural ability support.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
"A couple of years back, I posted a list of about 15 spell proposals that went completely ignored. <shrugs> I don't even remember them."
They were probably the most well developed proposals I can remember being posted. My only concern at the time is that your concepts were HUGE and therefore I had doubts that they would get developement. But really, of the hundreds and hundreds of suggestions made over the years, probably only 3 or 4 at the most became clerical spells, so none of us should be surprised.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
They were probably the most well developed proposals I can remember being posted. My only concern at the time is that your concepts were HUGE and therefore I had doubts that they would get developement. But really, of the hundreds and hundreds of suggestions made over the years, probably only 3 or 4 at the most became clerical spells, so none of us should be surprised.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
"While I see the weapon secondary point, my first impulse is that clerics : lore :: war mages : weapons. It's just how I identify with them. So I would propose maybe some lore aligned spells, particularly when the mech split is done?"
Clerics are both weapon and lore secondary, and we have requirements for both. Theoretically I would be fine with any boosts in the weapons skill set or the lore skill set. Its just I have no current use for Lores.
Again theoretically, if Flavius had a spell that boosted a weapon by 50 ranks, that would make a huge difference for him in combat. Currently a 50 rank boost in any lore wouldn't help Flavius much if at all. I hope that lores do get expanded and that there would be a reason to clamor for a lore boost.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
Clerics are both weapon and lore secondary, and we have requirements for both. Theoretically I would be fine with any boosts in the weapons skill set or the lore skill set. Its just I have no current use for Lores.
Again theoretically, if Flavius had a spell that boosted a weapon by 50 ranks, that would make a huge difference for him in combat. Currently a 50 rank boost in any lore wouldn't help Flavius much if at all. I hope that lores do get expanded and that there would be a reason to clamor for a lore boost.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
<<What Armifer is referring to is that among other things, some Berserks use the exact same damage reduction system that Minor Physical Protection does. They use it subtly different ways, but then so does CoL and MPP too. As far as I am aware, the system was invented in the first place for Barbarian supernatural ability support.
No kidding? Interesting, I've never noticed any MPP/CoL type benefit from my berserks. I'll have to test more.
To hear that it was invented prior to MPP means it would have had to be apart of the original single berserk we had. Very cool stuff.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
No kidding? Interesting, I've never noticed any MPP/CoL type benefit from my berserks. I'll have to test more.
To hear that it was invented prior to MPP means it would have had to be apart of the original single berserk we had. Very cool stuff.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
>>No kidding? Interesting, I've never noticed any MPP/CoL type benefit from my berserks. I'll have to test more.
>>It would be very difficult to detect without any messaging. This is the first I've heard of it as well.
As he said, since it is designed not to message, there's no way a player can be expected to notice the difference between a small mitigation of damage and the normal range of potential results for a given creature.
I think most people wouldn't notice MPP or CoL either if they didn't get pretty lights every time someone beats them over the head.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
>>It would be very difficult to detect without any messaging. This is the first I've heard of it as well.
As he said, since it is designed not to message, there's no way a player can be expected to notice the difference between a small mitigation of damage and the normal range of potential results for a given creature.
I think most people wouldn't notice MPP or CoL either if they didn't get pretty lights every time someone beats them over the head.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
New MPP 4/4/2005
New Berserks 8/25/2004
At least that is when I can find GM posts on the matter.
<<To hear that it was invented prior to MPP means it would have had to be apart of the original single berserk we had. Very cool stuff.<<
The damage reduction may have been introduced with new berserks, not the original berserk.
New Berserks 8/25/2004
At least that is when I can find GM posts on the matter.
<<To hear that it was invented prior to MPP means it would have had to be apart of the original single berserk we had. Very cool stuff.<<
The damage reduction may have been introduced with new berserks, not the original berserk.
<<Again theoretically, if Flavius had a spell that boosted a weapon by 50 ranks, that would make a huge difference for him in combat. Currently a 50 rank boost in any lore wouldn't help Flavius much if at all. I hope that lores do get expanded and that there would be a reason to clamor for a lore boost.
That is my hope as well. But you're right; as of right now I cannot think of one single lore or lore area that would be beneficial to boost out of the core lore skills.
Personally from your list Flavius, I was most excited to see the held mana spell only because I think infusion is one of our least used abilities. It is truly unique to clerics and I would like to see it implemented into more spells. And if clerical development were to borrow ideas from preexisting abilities already in DR, I think utilizing infusion would be one of the simpler and better ways of making it distinctly clerical.
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill
And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z
That is my hope as well. But you're right; as of right now I cannot think of one single lore or lore area that would be beneficial to boost out of the core lore skills.
Personally from your list Flavius, I was most excited to see the held mana spell only because I think infusion is one of our least used abilities. It is truly unique to clerics and I would like to see it implemented into more spells. And if clerical development were to borrow ideas from preexisting abilities already in DR, I think utilizing infusion would be one of the simpler and better ways of making it distinctly clerical.
Nikpack
player of Celeiros
Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill
And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z
