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Lirrak,
Armifer mentioned that he wasn't inclined towards a stat boosting spell that could go in an OM orb. This is not a huge shock, however, it got me thinking- have you decided on some parameters of what kind spells could go into OM in the future?
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
Along the lines of stat-boosting spells, I think Clerics asking for another stat-boosting spell would be like Warrior Mages asking for another AoE. Benediction is, in my mind, the premier stat-booster in the game, so expecting something as useful as it would be a stretch. Any other stat boost would IMO have to be ancillary functions of another spell design.
As for more OM spells, I honestly think only 1-2 more are needed. My Cleric can already put anything he wants inside the orb. Another spell along the lines of Halo/SOL/Centering would be nice to give some purpose to the extra MD ranks.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
As for more OM spells, I honestly think only 1-2 more are needed. My Cleric can already put anything he wants inside the orb. Another spell along the lines of Halo/SOL/Centering would be nice to give some purpose to the extra MD ranks.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
>>I think Clerics asking for another stat-boosting spell would be like Warrior Mages asking for another AoE.
In that case, we're due for about 4 more.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
In that case, we're due for about 4 more.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
>>In that case, we're due for about 4 more.
I wasn't using quantity as a unit of measurement but quality.
Warrior Mages have Fire Rain and CL along with Frostbite etc. However, in terms of damage or target teaching, CL is the standard by which all other AoEs are measured (and thus, by which all other AoE target spells fail).
Benediction is the Chain Lightning of stat boosters. My point was I simply don't see much need for another Cleric stat booster.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
I wasn't using quantity as a unit of measurement but quality.
Warrior Mages have Fire Rain and CL along with Frostbite etc. However, in terms of damage or target teaching, CL is the standard by which all other AoEs are measured (and thus, by which all other AoE target spells fail).
Benediction is the Chain Lightning of stat boosters. My point was I simply don't see much need for another Cleric stat booster.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
I thought I would kind of combine your points to respond more coherently
"Along the lines of stat-boosting spells, I think Clerics asking for another stat-boosting spell would be like Warrior Mages asking for another AoE. Benediction is, in my mind, the premier stat-booster in the game, so expecting something as useful as it would be a stretch. Any other stat boost would IMO have to be ancillary functions of another spell design.
Benediction is the Chain Lightning of stat boosters. My point was I simply don't see much need for another Cleric stat booster."
I think that you actually made two points- one that clerics shouldn't expect a stat-booster as useful as Benediction and that you don't see the need for another stat booster.
Addressing the first: No player should seriously EXPECT any new spells or abilities. However, I think it is perfectly reasonable to desire and ask for an additional spell booster that is different from but as useful as Benediction. Frankly there are only so many things spells can do, and stat boosting is one of them. What I had previously asked for was an equivelent to Rangers held mana spell which boosts two stats to I believe higher than Benediction boosts three stats. Since Armifer shut down any hope of such a spell going into the OM orb, but didn't eliminate the possibility of another stat booster, then I would like to look towards a 4th or 5th tier stat booster of similar ability to the Rangers stat booster, boosting stamina and discipline. I realize that there might be restrictions behind the curtain that might prevent it. Frankly its unlikely we will ever get such a spell under any circumstances, but no reason not to ask.
I don't know exactly why you don't see any usefulness for another stat booster. First of all, we certainly have enough empty space in our spell book for one, and secondly stat boosters provide a wide range of utility, both in combat and outside. I keep Vigil up most of the time simply because of the Charisma boost- whatever it is. Personally I would like a boost to Discipline and Stamina, so those are the ones I have mentioned.
"As for more OM spells, I honestly think only 1-2 more are needed. My Cleric can already put anything he wants inside the orb. Another spell along the lines of Halo/SOL/Centering would be nice to give some purpose to the extra MD ranks."
To a certain extent I agree with you. Spells designed exclusively for OM have an additional restriction in as much that there are limits to the space in OM by MD. I would never want to design a spell only to give purpose to MD ranks without some benefit to doing so. I would overall prefer normal set duration spells. But something that filled a unique and useful purpose that would work better with OM would be interesting. Perhaps an offensive spell ala Halo, but that triggers when a cleric is attacked in a certain way or could be invoked to attack.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
"Along the lines of stat-boosting spells, I think Clerics asking for another stat-boosting spell would be like Warrior Mages asking for another AoE. Benediction is, in my mind, the premier stat-booster in the game, so expecting something as useful as it would be a stretch. Any other stat boost would IMO have to be ancillary functions of another spell design.
Benediction is the Chain Lightning of stat boosters. My point was I simply don't see much need for another Cleric stat booster."
I think that you actually made two points- one that clerics shouldn't expect a stat-booster as useful as Benediction and that you don't see the need for another stat booster.
Addressing the first: No player should seriously EXPECT any new spells or abilities. However, I think it is perfectly reasonable to desire and ask for an additional spell booster that is different from but as useful as Benediction. Frankly there are only so many things spells can do, and stat boosting is one of them. What I had previously asked for was an equivelent to Rangers held mana spell which boosts two stats to I believe higher than Benediction boosts three stats. Since Armifer shut down any hope of such a spell going into the OM orb, but didn't eliminate the possibility of another stat booster, then I would like to look towards a 4th or 5th tier stat booster of similar ability to the Rangers stat booster, boosting stamina and discipline. I realize that there might be restrictions behind the curtain that might prevent it. Frankly its unlikely we will ever get such a spell under any circumstances, but no reason not to ask.
I don't know exactly why you don't see any usefulness for another stat booster. First of all, we certainly have enough empty space in our spell book for one, and secondly stat boosters provide a wide range of utility, both in combat and outside. I keep Vigil up most of the time simply because of the Charisma boost- whatever it is. Personally I would like a boost to Discipline and Stamina, so those are the ones I have mentioned.
"As for more OM spells, I honestly think only 1-2 more are needed. My Cleric can already put anything he wants inside the orb. Another spell along the lines of Halo/SOL/Centering would be nice to give some purpose to the extra MD ranks."
To a certain extent I agree with you. Spells designed exclusively for OM have an additional restriction in as much that there are limits to the space in OM by MD. I would never want to design a spell only to give purpose to MD ranks without some benefit to doing so. I would overall prefer normal set duration spells. But something that filled a unique and useful purpose that would work better with OM would be interesting. Perhaps an offensive spell ala Halo, but that triggers when a cleric is attacked in a certain way or could be invoked to attack.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
As to stat boosters, my thought is this...
Vigil boosts charisma.
Benediction boosts reflex, strength, and agility.
While I will certainly not argue against the usefulness of a stamina/discipline booster, from a neutral perspective I find myself wondering at the thought of a guild capable of walking around with boosts to 6+ of their stats active at any time.
Since Benediction and Vigil are both duration spells, it would become quite easy to handle even a held mana spell that wasn't OM friendly... and suddenly a Cleric is walking around with +15 to five of their stats. That strikes me as unnecessary at best and overpowered at worst.
>>First of all, we certainly have enough empty space in our spell book for one, and secondly stat boosters provide a wide range of utility, both in combat and outside.
I certainly agree about the sparsity of Cleric spells. Clerics are the malnourished step-children of the magic primary family. There's no argument there.
However, my central argument is that - given the sparseness of the Cleric spellbook - the last thing we need is another stat booster. Perhaps that is hyperbole, but it certainly isn't high on my priority list. Warrior Mages have 10+ more spells that Clerics do and they have only one stat booster. Clerics have two already.
What I would take before a stat booster:
1) An AoE attack that pulls people from hiding like CL or Telekinetic Storm. The auto-point possibilities of Revelation are nice, but given the inherent RT associated with a cast of Revelation... Clerics are woefully vulnerable to stealth attacks in PvP. Even a delayed pulse-effect AoE like Telekinetic Storm would, in my opinion, be a valuable addition. Revelation and AO with a capped cast of CV pushed into it are both very useful, but another tool in the toolbox wouldn't hurt.
2) More TM spells. I know this sounds redundant, but AE costs spirit health and has a delayed cast, HoT could use a serious power boost and FF is only multi-shot against undead. A couple powerful, even vanilla, second and third tier single-target TM spells designed to be used against living would really flesh out Clerical offense nicely.
3) Actually, the OM spell you suggested sounds pretty awesome. An OM spell that functioned like Mark of Arhat (pulsing TM attacks versus anything engaged to you) would just be absolutely stellar. Maybe Armifer has divine foresight and planned Flames of Ushnish like this. I can only hope.
4) Another disabler would be nice. PS is great but so are options. I mean status changes specifically (stunned, webbed, immobilized, etc.), not curses, as those are fleshed out pretty well.
5) More unique Cleric development. I think this is the area most in need of attention but it's also the trickiest. OM is rather well-developed. In order to flesh out the Cleric spells more, new mechanics must be instituted. Damaging attunement is one idea. The return of spiritual combat is another. The suggested Cleric spells could easily constitute 5-6 spells before the well starts to run dry. The problem is there are some rather large obstacles blocking the way to said developments. I would personally rather live with a somewhat sparse spellbook that see a lot of redundancy.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
Vigil boosts charisma.
Benediction boosts reflex, strength, and agility.
While I will certainly not argue against the usefulness of a stamina/discipline booster, from a neutral perspective I find myself wondering at the thought of a guild capable of walking around with boosts to 6+ of their stats active at any time.
Since Benediction and Vigil are both duration spells, it would become quite easy to handle even a held mana spell that wasn't OM friendly... and suddenly a Cleric is walking around with +15 to five of their stats. That strikes me as unnecessary at best and overpowered at worst.
>>First of all, we certainly have enough empty space in our spell book for one, and secondly stat boosters provide a wide range of utility, both in combat and outside.
I certainly agree about the sparsity of Cleric spells. Clerics are the malnourished step-children of the magic primary family. There's no argument there.
However, my central argument is that - given the sparseness of the Cleric spellbook - the last thing we need is another stat booster. Perhaps that is hyperbole, but it certainly isn't high on my priority list. Warrior Mages have 10+ more spells that Clerics do and they have only one stat booster. Clerics have two already.
What I would take before a stat booster:
1) An AoE attack that pulls people from hiding like CL or Telekinetic Storm. The auto-point possibilities of Revelation are nice, but given the inherent RT associated with a cast of Revelation... Clerics are woefully vulnerable to stealth attacks in PvP. Even a delayed pulse-effect AoE like Telekinetic Storm would, in my opinion, be a valuable addition. Revelation and AO with a capped cast of CV pushed into it are both very useful, but another tool in the toolbox wouldn't hurt.
2) More TM spells. I know this sounds redundant, but AE costs spirit health and has a delayed cast, HoT could use a serious power boost and FF is only multi-shot against undead. A couple powerful, even vanilla, second and third tier single-target TM spells designed to be used against living would really flesh out Clerical offense nicely.
3) Actually, the OM spell you suggested sounds pretty awesome. An OM spell that functioned like Mark of Arhat (pulsing TM attacks versus anything engaged to you) would just be absolutely stellar. Maybe Armifer has divine foresight and planned Flames of Ushnish like this. I can only hope.
4) Another disabler would be nice. PS is great but so are options. I mean status changes specifically (stunned, webbed, immobilized, etc.), not curses, as those are fleshed out pretty well.
5) More unique Cleric development. I think this is the area most in need of attention but it's also the trickiest. OM is rather well-developed. In order to flesh out the Cleric spells more, new mechanics must be instituted. Damaging attunement is one idea. The return of spiritual combat is another. The suggested Cleric spells could easily constitute 5-6 spells before the well starts to run dry. The problem is there are some rather large obstacles blocking the way to said developments. I would personally rather live with a somewhat sparse spellbook that see a lot of redundancy.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
I tend to agree with much of what you wrote other than a few small points:
"the last thing we need is another stat booster"
Just disagree with you in that regard. Just a difference of opinion on priorities I think.
"5) More unique Cleric development. I think this is the area most in need of attention but it's also the trickiest. OM is rather well-developed. In order to flesh out the Cleric spells more, new mechanics must be instituted. Damaging attunement is one idea. The return of spiritual combat is another. The suggested Cleric spells could easily constitute 5-6 spells before the well starts to run dry. The problem is there are some rather large obstacles blocking the way to said developments. I would personally rather live with a somewhat sparse spellbook that see a lot of redundancy."
Unique developement would be great. I am looking forward to seeing what the new spiritual combat spells will look like.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
"the last thing we need is another stat booster"
Just disagree with you in that regard. Just a difference of opinion on priorities I think.
"5) More unique Cleric development. I think this is the area most in need of attention but it's also the trickiest. OM is rather well-developed. In order to flesh out the Cleric spells more, new mechanics must be instituted. Damaging attunement is one idea. The return of spiritual combat is another. The suggested Cleric spells could easily constitute 5-6 spells before the well starts to run dry. The problem is there are some rather large obstacles blocking the way to said developments. I would personally rather live with a somewhat sparse spellbook that see a lot of redundancy."
Unique developement would be great. I am looking forward to seeing what the new spiritual combat spells will look like.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
>>in terms of damage or target teaching, CL is the standard by which all other AoEs are measured
That's the standard by which players measure AoEs, not GMs.
>>Benediction is the Chain Lightning of stat boosters.
In that case, clerics should get 4 more stat boosters that aren't quite as good as Benediction.
Should I now point out that GvG doesn't really work?
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
That's the standard by which players measure AoEs, not GMs.
>>Benediction is the Chain Lightning of stat boosters.
In that case, clerics should get 4 more stat boosters that aren't quite as good as Benediction.
Should I now point out that GvG doesn't really work?
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
>>That's the standard by which players measure AoEs, not GMs.
I find this statement ironic given that Dartenian and Srmifer have flat-out said no other guild will be getting an AoE spell as potent as CL.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
I find this statement ironic given that Dartenian and Srmifer have flat-out said no other guild will be getting an AoE spell as potent as CL.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
>>If it's at the top of the charts then it's not the standard.
You're using standard in the sense of mathematical averages.
It has more than one meaning.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
You're using standard in the sense of mathematical averages.
It has more than one meaning.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
>>I find this statement ironic given that Dartenian and Srmifer have flat-out said no other guild will be getting an AoE spell as potent as CL.
First of all, it was Ssra, not Dartenian.
Second, your idea of a standard is an outlier. Very good. In that case, Tropicalo is the standard by which all fighters are measured, yes?
Third, my statement stands: by your comparison, clerics should get more stat boosters. Stop making comparisons between guilds.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
First of all, it was Ssra, not Dartenian.
Second, your idea of a standard is an outlier. Very good. In that case, Tropicalo is the standard by which all fighters are measured, yes?
Third, my statement stands: by your comparison, clerics should get more stat boosters. Stop making comparisons between guilds.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
>>Second, your idea of a standard is an outlier. Very good. In that case, Tropicalo is the standard by which all fighters are measured, yes?
This isn't mathematics, this is the English language.
"Chain Lightning is the standard by which all other AoE spells are measured" means that Chain Lightning is at the top, not that it is literally a unit of measurement that is an average of all other AoEs combined.
So yes, in fact, given this definition, Tropicalo is the standard by which other Warrior Mages are measured.
I think you know that fully well. Equivocation is a logical fallacy, I'm positive you are aware of that, so please stop using it.
>>by your comparison, clerics should get more stat boosters
You haven't explained your logic yet. If I'm following it correctly (which I doubt I am), then it's extremely faulty.
Warrior Mages have 42 spells and one stat booster.
Clerics have 31 spells and 2 stat boosters.
Please explain how my argument concludes that Clerics need more stat boosters. I'm not sure what kind of quantum theory you're using to come up with that result, because simple arithmetic tells me Clerics have enough stat boosters.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
This isn't mathematics, this is the English language.
"Chain Lightning is the standard by which all other AoE spells are measured" means that Chain Lightning is at the top, not that it is literally a unit of measurement that is an average of all other AoEs combined.
So yes, in fact, given this definition, Tropicalo is the standard by which other Warrior Mages are measured.
I think you know that fully well. Equivocation is a logical fallacy, I'm positive you are aware of that, so please stop using it.
>>by your comparison, clerics should get more stat boosters
You haven't explained your logic yet. If I'm following it correctly (which I doubt I am), then it's extremely faulty.
Warrior Mages have 42 spells and one stat booster.
Clerics have 31 spells and 2 stat boosters.
Please explain how my argument concludes that Clerics need more stat boosters. I'm not sure what kind of quantum theory you're using to come up with that result, because simple arithmetic tells me Clerics have enough stat boosters.
*******
Just a side message Galren... I don't know if you changed your last name to Rippentrop or not, but you're listed on the Ratha register as Galren Norim... Saw that yesterday.
I was going to rebutt, but I accidentally stumbled across your very long post that I somehow missed. So while you are walking over yourself in contradictions, at least you have valid points outside of that.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
