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Since we were told that a healing system rewrite was under serious consideration (and now, since Towint's post have learned it's been underway for a long time) I've been pondering changes I'd like to see to the system.
This led me to ask why healing should begin at first circle. I understand from a playability perspective there are limits that must be imposed that sacrifice realism for the greater good of player enjoyment. However, I don't believe my proposal would impose any undue hardships on either the Empath or the Patient.
First, the proposal. Anyone who has been an Empath knows the frustration of healing people those first few circles. It takes forever to transfer a wound and your healing links break constantly. Likewise, it is equally frustrating for the Patient. Therefore, I think it would beneficial for the ability to heal people to be awarded at 11th circle. At this point an Empath has sufficent tranference skill to make healing a more attractive endeavor for both themselves and their Patient.
Obviously, new methods of learning transference up to that point would be necessary. I don't think it's presumptuous to say that they are coming anyway so removing healing as a means of learning transference for 10 circles would not necessarily impose a hardship on the Empath.
To help with this, however, and induce a shot of realism into the healing process I suggest outfitting novice Empaths with anatomy charts as a tool of IC learning.
Upon joining the guild the Empath would receive an anatomy chart of a specific race that they could study to learn scholarship and transference. They could also study portions of the chart, such as STUDY CHART CHEST, for more detailed learning on healing specific wounds on that race that would also teach scholarship and transference.
There are what, 11 races? For the first 10 circles when the Empath circles they will be given a new anatomy chart for a different race. Because of their own familiarity with their own race they will not need to study their own chart so will only receive charts for the other foreign races. At 11th circle the ability of touch diagnosis is learned and the healing process can begin.
The matter of spells and magic for novices is, of course, important and is an issue I'm still pondering. SOP is always a good choice for the young and with the evasion requirement (which I'm hoping never goes away) it would be a good choice for 1st circle. Some new spells certainly wouldn't be frowned at either. With the coming alchemy system changes I'm sort of hoping for herb spells to make things more potent, et cetera, for healing. These too might be beneficial for novice Empaths to learn first. So I'm still thinking.
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that it's my hope that because healing is the focal point of the guild and because GMs have voiced their committment to making healing the best method of transference learning that it will become a lifelong process of learning and not cap out early on.
~Maddie
I like the idea too Maddie.
I think it makes a lot of sense actually. When you first show up at nursing school, or med school, they don't say "Okay, you're all signed up, now go out there and cure that sick fellow!" There's a training period involved. When mucking with someone's health, you have to know what you are doing quite exactly.
And I think it will help the young empaths as well as the old. The younger empaths will be able to learn their skills a bit better, and won't have to worry about finding a patient willing to wait all the long time it takes them to heal a few wounds. And there will thereby be slightly more patients for the older empaths to heal.
In short, I like it.
~Cetacea
I think it makes a lot of sense actually. When you first show up at nursing school, or med school, they don't say "Okay, you're all signed up, now go out there and cure that sick fellow!" There's a training period involved. When mucking with someone's health, you have to know what you are doing quite exactly.
And I think it will help the young empaths as well as the old. The younger empaths will be able to learn their skills a bit better, and won't have to worry about finding a patient willing to wait all the long time it takes them to heal a few wounds. And there will thereby be slightly more patients for the older empaths to heal.
In short, I like it.
~Cetacea
Maddie
I'm in agreement with the others, I like the base idea also.
I'm not sure who would hold back the revolt if something along these lines was worked out.
It would also deal with another issue, mules. (somewhat like how Clerics Raise is today) I sure wouldn't run up a level 40 mule to raise, and it would make it less enticing to do so for an empath.
After just a few minutes of thought the only huge issue I see, is if they are not working with hunters, where will they make coin and tips for the first 11 circles of their lives?
Xochi
I'm in agreement with the others, I like the base idea also.
I'm not sure who would hold back the revolt if something along these lines was worked out.
It would also deal with another issue, mules. (somewhat like how Clerics Raise is today) I sure wouldn't run up a level 40 mule to raise, and it would make it less enticing to do so for an empath.
After just a few minutes of thought the only huge issue I see, is if they are not working with hunters, where will they make coin and tips for the first 11 circles of their lives?
Xochi
Well, I still have reservations only because I remember how fun it used to be when I was tiny to help save near-death hunters. But, the fact is that todays empathic world is much different than it was back then, and I need to start letting go of that 'romantic view' sooner or later. Soooo, I have to say that I too like this base idea...
However, one thing I would change is that instead of having to learn all the races before you could then heal, I would suggest that at each circle, when an empath learns about his/her next race, they are then able to heal that race.
So, for example, we have a new Human empath. She can, from the start, heal other humans (albiet slowly, like they can now), but when she goes to touch say an Elf, get's confussed and is unable to form a diagnostic link.
So, she is now 2ns circle, and remembering the Elf, she asks to be taught Elven anatomy. Now, she can heal both Humans and Elves.
This would continue until she was 11th circle, at which time, she then progresses on to the next step of healing, poison.
Kythryn
However, one thing I would change is that instead of having to learn all the races before you could then heal, I would suggest that at each circle, when an empath learns about his/her next race, they are then able to heal that race.
So, for example, we have a new Human empath. She can, from the start, heal other humans (albiet slowly, like they can now), but when she goes to touch say an Elf, get's confussed and is unable to form a diagnostic link.
So, she is now 2ns circle, and remembering the Elf, she asks to be taught Elven anatomy. Now, she can heal both Humans and Elves.
This would continue until she was 11th circle, at which time, she then progresses on to the next step of healing, poison.
Kythryn
<<However, one thing I would change is that instead of having to learn all the races before you could then heal, I would suggest that at each circle, when an empath learns about his/her next race, they are then able to heal that race.>>
Dang...I kinda dig that...
Solomon
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Dang...I kinda dig that...
Solomon
Vote for DragonRealms as the #1 MUD every day!
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I really like the idea of being able to heal once race at a time. It gets em healing, but doesnt just throw em in there and say, okay have at it guys!! Not healing at all until 11th circle seems a bit much. However the whole reason I love being a puff is to heal people. But, I also know something needs to be done. Even if it were say start healing at 5th circle or so. That was they can 'study the races' and get to know more about the city instead of just living in the guild trying to heal 1 person every hour or two.
But anyways, I wish I were creative nuff ta come up with these nifty ideas! Lets cross our fingers and see where they decide to take us as a guild..
-A very excited Etrina
But anyways, I wish I were creative nuff ta come up with these nifty ideas! Lets cross our fingers and see where they decide to take us as a guild..
-A very excited Etrina
The only problem I see with youngsters being unable to heal is the impression they get about the guild. If one had to listen to do nothing but continuously listen to teaching and study a chart over and over, what sort of impression would that leave about the empath guild? Would you want to keep playing that guild?
-Kitrinx
-Kitrinx
> If one had to listen to do nothing but continuously listen to teaching and study a chart over and over, what sort of impression would that leave about the empath guild?
Probably a pretty accurate one.
(East, East, Tend, Listen, Tend, East, Listen, Tend...)
~Y
Look what I can't do!
http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
Probably a pretty accurate one.
(East, East, Tend, Listen, Tend, East, Listen, Tend...)
~Y
Look what I can't do!
http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
>If one had to listen to do nothing but continuously listen to teaching and study a chart over and over...
See, if this did go into effect, I'd like to see some other 'low level' options made avaliable to them too. A blood critter that caps out extra-low that would only be good for the very young. Maybe some NPC patients that have just scuffs for them to practice on in a controlled environment.
And, it's not like they couldn't heal. They would, from the very start, be able to heal everyone of their own race. It would just take more circles until they could heal everyone from all races...
Kythryn, warming to the idea
See, if this did go into effect, I'd like to see some other 'low level' options made avaliable to them too. A blood critter that caps out extra-low that would only be good for the very young. Maybe some NPC patients that have just scuffs for them to practice on in a controlled environment.
And, it's not like they couldn't heal. They would, from the very start, be able to heal everyone of their own race. It would just take more circles until they could heal everyone from all races...
Kythryn, warming to the idea
>>The only problem I see with youngsters being unable to heal is the impression they get about the guild. If one had to listen to do nothing but continuously listen to teaching and study a chart over and over, what sort of impression would that leave about the empath guild? Would you want to keep playing that guild?
There would, of course, have to be other ways for empaths to learn transference. One way I have thought of, that can start at a novice level, is using transference to heighten the properties of herbs to make them more potent. I know a spell was planned for this, but with transference applications broadening, I see no reason why this can not logically find a niche in transference learning.
I'd also like to see the LINK ability teach a small amount of transference. We are transferring knowledge, are we not?
If establishing diagnostic links becomes skill based, I can see this teaching a small amount of transference as well.
I'd also give young empaths the ability to help by taking vitality from patients from the very first circles. This way they can participate in helping people stay alive in dire situations while not compromising the complexity of healing in Madelyna's suggestion.
I'm sure I could come up with more if I sat down and tried. But those 4 options come off the top of my head for novices to learn transference without being given immediate access to healing all wounds.
Shaunn
There would, of course, have to be other ways for empaths to learn transference. One way I have thought of, that can start at a novice level, is using transference to heighten the properties of herbs to make them more potent. I know a spell was planned for this, but with transference applications broadening, I see no reason why this can not logically find a niche in transference learning.
I'd also like to see the LINK ability teach a small amount of transference. We are transferring knowledge, are we not?
If establishing diagnostic links becomes skill based, I can see this teaching a small amount of transference as well.
I'd also give young empaths the ability to help by taking vitality from patients from the very first circles. This way they can participate in helping people stay alive in dire situations while not compromising the complexity of healing in Madelyna's suggestion.
I'm sure I could come up with more if I sat down and tried. But those 4 options come off the top of my head for novices to learn transference without being given immediate access to healing all wounds.
Shaunn
> And, it's not like they couldn't heal. They would, from the very start, be able to heal everyone of their own race. It would just take more circles until they could heal everyone from all races...
In your system, not in Maddie's. I'm still trying to decide which I like better. Though I'm leaning towards Maddie's
~Y
Look what I can't do!
http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
In your system, not in Maddie's. I'm still trying to decide which I like better. Though I'm leaning towards Maddie's
~Y
Look what I can't do!
http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
Don't forget that Teaching is now a viable option to learn Transference, especially for the young.
Solomon
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Solomon
Vote for DragonRealms as the #1 MUD every day!
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Ok, what did I miss?
<<<Don't forget that Teaching is now a viable option to learn Transference, especially for the young.
Solomon>>>
Otherwise, there is a list of possible skills for you to teach:
SHIELDS HARNESSING POWER DEVICES
EVASION CLIMBING PERCEPTION SCOUTING
HIDING LOCKPICKING DISARMING STALKING
STEALING FIRSTAID ESCAPING BACKSTABBING
SCHOLARSHIP MECHANICS MUSIC TEACHING
<<<Don't forget that Teaching is now a viable option to learn Transference, especially for the young.
Solomon>>>
Otherwise, there is a list of possible skills for you to teach:
SHIELDS HARNESSING POWER DEVICES
EVASION CLIMBING PERCEPTION SCOUTING
HIDING LOCKPICKING DISARMING STALKING
STEALING FIRSTAID ESCAPING BACKSTABBING
SCHOLARSHIP MECHANICS MUSIC TEACHING
>Don't forget that Teaching is now a viable option to learn Transference, especially for the young.
Um, I'm sorry. What!?
~Y
Look what I can't do!
http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
Um, I'm sorry. What!?
~Y
Look what I can't do!
http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
>I like it being unteachable :)
Pfft. I don't.
<bites>
~Y
Look what I can't do!
http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
Pfft. I don't.
<bites>
~Y
Look what I can't do!
http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
Just a thought on a way to help youngin's with the trans a little bit in this plan...maybe Annael (and whoever the person is in Haven) could keep a little baby leech farm in her area. The young ones, say under 5th circle, could stick their hands in, grab a baby leech or two (picture a sandbox type of coding), maybe every now and then find a small gem as well. You'd have to put a timer on using the leech farm of course. Once an hour maybe? And finding a gem would be fairly rare...one in 10 or 20 tries perhaps? They'd get some easy capped trans and first aid from pulling off the baby leeches, and a "tip" every now and then.
Just a thought...
~Cetacea
Just a thought...
~Cetacea
<<Nope. Its not.>>
Ok then ignore my babbling. :)
Solomon
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Ok then ignore my babbling. :)
Solomon
Vote for DragonRealms as the #1 MUD every day!
http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=drealms
I'm going to hope that Solomon is still high on cold medicine and he didn't actually just say that Transference will be teachable. That would be a worse travesty to this guild than the leeches have been.
Disclaimer: Yes, I too like the leeches...but admit it, the red ones need to be capped big time. They are far too easy.
~Cetacea
Disclaimer: Yes, I too like the leeches...but admit it, the red ones need to be capped big time. They are far too easy.
~Cetacea
<<However, one thing I would change is that instead of having to learn all the races before you could then heal, I would suggest that at each circle, when an empath learns about his/her next race, they are then able to heal that race. -- Kythryn>>
I had this same thought but also had a few reservations.
First, I wonder if it would add more frustration. Empaths often have a hard time finding -any- patients to heal. Having to further narrow the pool of patients may just be more annoying. Certain races are less popular than others. And I'm not sure saying "sorry I can't heal you because you're an Elf" is bettern than saying "sorry I'm a novice and haven't been taught how to heal yet". Does one make more (or less) sense than the other?
Which leads to my next question, the nature of our diagnostic touch. Just what is the diagnostic touch dependent on for success and how/why should it matter what race you are? Would the knowledge of Human anatomy be significantly different from Elven anatomy to warrant staged learning of our healing touch? I mean, I touch a S'kra, a Gnome and an Elothean...is there something intrinsically different about the touch depending on what race the patient is? Or is it more about my mastery of the healing touch that allows me to touch and diagnose the patient's wounds? If it's the first one then staged learning seems logical but if the second then an all-or-nothing approach seems better to me.
Finally, part of my intention was to make it so rolling up a mule didn't give one immediate access to healing -- sort of make it less desirable, even in a small way. If you can, from the get go, heal your own race as normal then this is bypassed...you simply make your mule the same race as the primary.
I'm still not sure which way I'd ultimately prefer. I can see pros and cons to both methods. Regardless, I'm hoping the new healing system takes race into account for healing. Perhaps even giving a bonus to healing your own race (i.e., wounds transfer slightly faster and/or you learn just a tiny bit more). And, of course, I'm still wanting race-related maladies (heh, mange and scale rot!) and susceptibility/immunity to different types of poison/disease based (partially) on race.
<<After just a few minutes of thought the only huge issue I see, is if they are not working with hunters, where will they make coin and tips for the first 11 circles of their lives? -- Xochi>>
We have that dispensary behind the Crossing Guild and herb shops in every major city so why can't they sell foragable herbs? It wouldn't pay a lot of course, perhaps something comparable to selling branches to Mags. To guard against Empaths simply cleaning out the cabinet and selling the herbs you could limit the number sold to say 3-5 silver worth per hour and require herbs to be fresh (sold within x minutes after being foraged). When they learn how to heal then the dispensary/shops no longer buy herbs from them.
<<See, if this did go into effect, I'd like to see some other 'low level' options made avaliable to them too.>>
I think these are coming (okay, I hope they are -- but I'm optimistic). I didn't suggest studying anatomy charts as the sole method of learning trans all those circles. It would be an additional method of learning for them that would provide the IC basis for delaying their healing ability. I'm hoping we one day learn transference from say, making badanges or healing potions. Anatomy charts would be free (as provided by Annael) and not require lots of supplies though, something that can be hard to gather when a novice.
What about other healing-type activities that an Empath could practice -- things that would make sense for a novice Empath to learn about after they've just joined the Guild...things that seem like logical steps in the process of learning how to heal/touch?
Just a couple things I considered to teach trans at novice levels:
(1) Instead of healing a wound perhaps it could be cleaned to reduce infection (or its onset).
(2) After alchemy and substances are released perhaps a method of learning about different herbs and healing remedies could teach first aid and transference. Especially if we had a spell to sense/affect the healing properties of an herb.
~Maddie
I had this same thought but also had a few reservations.
First, I wonder if it would add more frustration. Empaths often have a hard time finding -any- patients to heal. Having to further narrow the pool of patients may just be more annoying. Certain races are less popular than others. And I'm not sure saying "sorry I can't heal you because you're an Elf" is bettern than saying "sorry I'm a novice and haven't been taught how to heal yet". Does one make more (or less) sense than the other?
Which leads to my next question, the nature of our diagnostic touch. Just what is the diagnostic touch dependent on for success and how/why should it matter what race you are? Would the knowledge of Human anatomy be significantly different from Elven anatomy to warrant staged learning of our healing touch? I mean, I touch a S'kra, a Gnome and an Elothean...is there something intrinsically different about the touch depending on what race the patient is? Or is it more about my mastery of the healing touch that allows me to touch and diagnose the patient's wounds? If it's the first one then staged learning seems logical but if the second then an all-or-nothing approach seems better to me.
Finally, part of my intention was to make it so rolling up a mule didn't give one immediate access to healing -- sort of make it less desirable, even in a small way. If you can, from the get go, heal your own race as normal then this is bypassed...you simply make your mule the same race as the primary.
I'm still not sure which way I'd ultimately prefer. I can see pros and cons to both methods. Regardless, I'm hoping the new healing system takes race into account for healing. Perhaps even giving a bonus to healing your own race (i.e., wounds transfer slightly faster and/or you learn just a tiny bit more). And, of course, I'm still wanting race-related maladies (heh, mange and scale rot!) and susceptibility/immunity to different types of poison/disease based (partially) on race.
<<After just a few minutes of thought the only huge issue I see, is if they are not working with hunters, where will they make coin and tips for the first 11 circles of their lives? -- Xochi>>
We have that dispensary behind the Crossing Guild and herb shops in every major city so why can't they sell foragable herbs? It wouldn't pay a lot of course, perhaps something comparable to selling branches to Mags. To guard against Empaths simply cleaning out the cabinet and selling the herbs you could limit the number sold to say 3-5 silver worth per hour and require herbs to be fresh (sold within x minutes after being foraged). When they learn how to heal then the dispensary/shops no longer buy herbs from them.
<<See, if this did go into effect, I'd like to see some other 'low level' options made avaliable to them too.>>
I think these are coming (okay, I hope they are -- but I'm optimistic). I didn't suggest studying anatomy charts as the sole method of learning trans all those circles. It would be an additional method of learning for them that would provide the IC basis for delaying their healing ability. I'm hoping we one day learn transference from say, making badanges or healing potions. Anatomy charts would be free (as provided by Annael) and not require lots of supplies though, something that can be hard to gather when a novice.
What about other healing-type activities that an Empath could practice -- things that would make sense for a novice Empath to learn about after they've just joined the Guild...things that seem like logical steps in the process of learning how to heal/touch?
Just a couple things I considered to teach trans at novice levels:
(1) Instead of healing a wound perhaps it could be cleaned to reduce infection (or its onset).
(2) After alchemy and substances are released perhaps a method of learning about different herbs and healing remedies could teach first aid and transference. Especially if we had a spell to sense/affect the healing properties of an herb.
~Maddie
<<I'm going to hope that Solomon is still high on cold medicine and he didn't actually just say that Transference will be teachable. >>
See...this is how rumors get started.
I never at all said that, or even came close.
I had no idea it wasn't teachable. I was saying that I thought you had counted teaching out because it had been broken for so long, under the assumption that it WAS teachable.
When someone said it wasn't, I said that you could ignore my babbling then.
Nothing more.
Solomon
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See...this is how rumors get started.
I never at all said that, or even came close.
I had no idea it wasn't teachable. I was saying that I thought you had counted teaching out because it had been broken for so long, under the assumption that it WAS teachable.
When someone said it wasn't, I said that you could ignore my babbling then.
Nothing more.
Solomon
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> it WAS teachable - Solomon
Ahh so it was teachable until you broke it?
<hums>
~Y
Look what I can't do!
http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
Ahh so it was teachable until you broke it?
<hums>
~Y
Look what I can't do!
http://www.coalition.fairmont.nu
Maybe even a mini quest to learn how to touch and diagnose a patient at 11th or 12th...or 15th circle!
Still brainstorming,
Amo
_____________________________________________ "Can you even dye my eyes to match my gown?" ~Dorothy
For more information on empaths who shift, go to:
http://www.coalition.fairmount.nu
Still brainstorming,
Amo
_____________________________________________ "Can you even dye my eyes to match my gown?" ~Dorothy
For more information on empaths who shift, go to:
http://www.coalition.fairmount.nu
I'd like these general ideas of making healing an advanced skill if:
1. Transference (or whatever it may be called in the future) of wounds was adjusted to reflect increased difficulty across the board - not only are leeches too easy, the act of healing is ridiculously so. When we overheal, it's more due to inattention than real risk. Shouldn't healing at least carry the same risk levels as combat? Sure, I love being able to take a deep breath and pull three people back from the brink of death, but that doesn't make it right.
2. Eliminate NPC empaths in Prime. I've heard the arguments about supposedly no empaths in remote areas or during the wee hours, but I don't buy it. No one whines bitterly about the lack of clerics or paladins or moon mages in those areas or during those hours. (Notice how folks also don't gweth for empaths like they do for clerics paladins or moon mages either?) If you are worried about injuries, gweth for an empath or -gasp- hire one to go one with you. I have no patience for rugged loner poseurs who are too lightweight or pampered to carry herbs.
Baboushka
1. Transference (or whatever it may be called in the future) of wounds was adjusted to reflect increased difficulty across the board - not only are leeches too easy, the act of healing is ridiculously so. When we overheal, it's more due to inattention than real risk. Shouldn't healing at least carry the same risk levels as combat? Sure, I love being able to take a deep breath and pull three people back from the brink of death, but that doesn't make it right.
2. Eliminate NPC empaths in Prime. I've heard the arguments about supposedly no empaths in remote areas or during the wee hours, but I don't buy it. No one whines bitterly about the lack of clerics or paladins or moon mages in those areas or during those hours. (Notice how folks also don't gweth for empaths like they do for clerics paladins or moon mages either?) If you are worried about injuries, gweth for an empath or -gasp- hire one to go one with you. I have no patience for rugged loner poseurs who are too lightweight or pampered to carry herbs.
Baboushka
>2. Eliminate NPC empaths in Prime. I've heard the arguments about supposedly no empaths in remote areas or during the wee hours, but I don't buy it. No one whines bitterly about the lack of clerics or paladins or moon mages in those areas or during those hours. (Notice how folks also don't gweth for empaths like they do for clerics paladins or moon mages either?) If you are worried about injuries, gweth for an empath or -gasp- hire one to go one with you. I have no patience for rugged loner poseurs who are too lightweight or pampered to carry herbs.
Herbs don't heal everything and sometimes there are literally no empaths around Shard. I'd prefer to see NPC prices altered a bit to a) be higher and to b) increase if an NPC is used a lot and c) decrease if the NPC is underutilized.
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
Herbs don't heal everything and sometimes there are literally no empaths around Shard. I'd prefer to see NPC prices altered a bit to a) be higher and to b) increase if an NPC is used a lot and c) decrease if the NPC is underutilized.
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
> Herbs don't heal everything
Yet. They will. Empaths are waiting for new alchemy too. New alchemy will happen way before any empath guild overhauls. And I'm sorry you can't juggle all the time, but that's not going to break my heart or justify NPC empaths in my book.
> and sometimes there are literally no empaths around Shard.
Sometimes my non-empaths are injured and no empaths are around at the time too - so I wait for local empaths to wake up or walk to where the empaths are. Sometimes I'm dead and there's no cleric around - so I just depart and take the exp loss. Sometimes I need to travel from Theren to points south and no moons are out - so I hoof it. Sometimes my empath walks around and no one is injured - so I go do something else.
Deal with it. If you don't like mortal wounds, stop hunting over your head. If you think that the risks are worth the exp/treasure/self-worth, then take the risks and don't cry to mama about the consequences.
Baboushka
Yet. They will. Empaths are waiting for new alchemy too. New alchemy will happen way before any empath guild overhauls. And I'm sorry you can't juggle all the time, but that's not going to break my heart or justify NPC empaths in my book.
> and sometimes there are literally no empaths around Shard.
Sometimes my non-empaths are injured and no empaths are around at the time too - so I wait for local empaths to wake up or walk to where the empaths are. Sometimes I'm dead and there's no cleric around - so I just depart and take the exp loss. Sometimes I need to travel from Theren to points south and no moons are out - so I hoof it. Sometimes my empath walks around and no one is injured - so I go do something else.
Deal with it. If you don't like mortal wounds, stop hunting over your head. If you think that the risks are worth the exp/treasure/self-worth, then take the risks and don't cry to mama about the consequences.
Baboushka
> I disagree. Empaths and patients should be moving away from being totaly dependant on one another, not becoming moreso. At least not for mundane three-times-a-day type healing.
I see herbs, especially New Alchemy herbs, as covering this area - boosted of course with various spells, skills and abilities that the other guilds have that have healing benefits. Most people don't see an empath for a coupla scratches on their arms, they just eat some jadice. Herbs aren't as fast as empaths, but they are fast enough to prevent gangrene.
If we ever get a creation system that we've been asking for these last few years - flush poison charms, bandages and whatnot - it would serve remote or wee hour hunters even better than NPCs.
I don't see how eliminating NPC empaths would make people totally dependent on empaths. They don't even address the main pet peeves most people have - disease, poison, death scars. While I have no love of how NPC Empaths contribute to healers perceived as the realm's welfare workers, I also feel they are obsolete.
Baboushka
I see herbs, especially New Alchemy herbs, as covering this area - boosted of course with various spells, skills and abilities that the other guilds have that have healing benefits. Most people don't see an empath for a coupla scratches on their arms, they just eat some jadice. Herbs aren't as fast as empaths, but they are fast enough to prevent gangrene.
If we ever get a creation system that we've been asking for these last few years - flush poison charms, bandages and whatnot - it would serve remote or wee hour hunters even better than NPCs.
I don't see how eliminating NPC empaths would make people totally dependent on empaths. They don't even address the main pet peeves most people have - disease, poison, death scars. While I have no love of how NPC Empaths contribute to healers perceived as the realm's welfare workers, I also feel they are obsolete.
Baboushka
I agree with you, Babs. NPC empaths should be phased out. And while Kitrinx brings up the point of being independent, I don't think the point is a good one. Reliance on other guilds and people is what makes this game a multiplayer RPG. And while I may not necessarily need players for transference. I still need a cleric when I die, I still need a 'commoner' to open my boxes, I still need a paladin for a glyph to protect my belongings, and on and on and on. The fact that we no longer need others for experience does not mean that we should eliminate the social needs for other guilds, and that includes empaths for healing. There already -is- an alternative to empaths: Herbs. We really don't need a Door #3.
Shaunn
Shaunn
<<I agree with you, Babs. NPC empaths should be phased out. And while Kitrinx brings up the point of being independent, I don't think the point is a good one. Reliance on other guilds and people is what makes this game a multiplayer RPG. And while I may not necessarily need players for transference. I still need a cleric when I die, I still need a 'commoner' to open my boxes, I still need a paladin for a glyph to protect my belongings, and on and on and on. The fact that we no longer need others for experience does not mean that we should eliminate the social needs for other guilds, and that includes empaths for healing. There already -is- an alternative to empaths: Herbs. We really don't need a Door #3.
Shaunn >>
I agree with Kitrinx. Reliance on other guilds is what makes people upset. It generaly creates a distake for other guilds. I'm BIG on promoting guild difference (otherwise why else have guilds) but to make people depenedant on another is wrong. You don't need a cleric when you die. If you depart quickly you won't lose much. I don't often wait for a cleric. I rarely ever get a glyph. Just make it back to your grave early enough. Boxes aren't needed though they are quite nice.
While having another guild help is a postive thing (which is good, promoting guild interaction, not reliance) players are negatively impacted if they can't be healed (nerve damage, eye damage...herbs they can't find yet). They won't juggled, play music, hunt well, or do anything well since so much is tied into the Healing System. While not having a glyph may be an inconvinience its not hindering you in your game playing.
Lassine
Shaunn >>
I agree with Kitrinx. Reliance on other guilds is what makes people upset. It generaly creates a distake for other guilds. I'm BIG on promoting guild difference (otherwise why else have guilds) but to make people depenedant on another is wrong. You don't need a cleric when you die. If you depart quickly you won't lose much. I don't often wait for a cleric. I rarely ever get a glyph. Just make it back to your grave early enough. Boxes aren't needed though they are quite nice.
While having another guild help is a postive thing (which is good, promoting guild interaction, not reliance) players are negatively impacted if they can't be healed (nerve damage, eye damage...herbs they can't find yet). They won't juggled, play music, hunt well, or do anything well since so much is tied into the Healing System. While not having a glyph may be an inconvinience its not hindering you in your game playing.
Lassine
>>Lassine's post.
Healing by empath is also not necessary. It will become even less necessary when Alchemy is rewritten and there will be very effective herbs for all bodyparts. It is a convenience, just because it is common does not make it less so. For the most part, herbs are sufficient. Many of the NPC empaths have things that they will not heal, just like herbs, in the majority of cases, both options offer incomplete healing. I see no reason why we can't eliminate one of the incomplete alternatives to PC existance. Herbs are a big part of many systems, NPC empaths are not. Its obvious to me which one of them should be phased out.
Shaunn
Healing by empath is also not necessary. It will become even less necessary when Alchemy is rewritten and there will be very effective herbs for all bodyparts. It is a convenience, just because it is common does not make it less so. For the most part, herbs are sufficient. Many of the NPC empaths have things that they will not heal, just like herbs, in the majority of cases, both options offer incomplete healing. I see no reason why we can't eliminate one of the incomplete alternatives to PC existance. Herbs are a big part of many systems, NPC empaths are not. Its obvious to me which one of them should be phased out.
Shaunn
>I really really really hope transference doesn't become teachable.
>I'm going to hope that Solomon is still high on cold medicine and he didn't actually just say that Transference will be teachable. That would be a worse travesty to this guild than the leeches have been.
And your reasoning for this is....?
I truly do not understand the seeming desire from the majority of the 'elder' empaths to continue keeping skills, namely transferrence, difficult to learn. There is not a good reason to keep any skill difficult to learn. Teachability of transferrence is, in no way, going to make a major difference in number of empaths vs. number of patients. The bloodsuckers haven't made a major difference, so why should teachability?
Is it the train of thought, "I had it hard, so it's not fair that others should have it easier"? If so, then perhaps thinking patterns should be re-evaluated and re-adjusted. If not, then please explain to me why you feel this way.
Every other guild is finding it easier and easier to learn. Why should the Empath Guild be any different?
~Xoine
"Too often we...enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
-- John F. Kennedy
>I'm going to hope that Solomon is still high on cold medicine and he didn't actually just say that Transference will be teachable. That would be a worse travesty to this guild than the leeches have been.
And your reasoning for this is....?
I truly do not understand the seeming desire from the majority of the 'elder' empaths to continue keeping skills, namely transferrence, difficult to learn. There is not a good reason to keep any skill difficult to learn. Teachability of transferrence is, in no way, going to make a major difference in number of empaths vs. number of patients. The bloodsuckers haven't made a major difference, so why should teachability?
Is it the train of thought, "I had it hard, so it's not fair that others should have it easier"? If so, then perhaps thinking patterns should be re-evaluated and re-adjusted. If not, then please explain to me why you feel this way.
Every other guild is finding it easier and easier to learn. Why should the Empath Guild be any different?
~Xoine
"Too often we...enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
-- John F. Kennedy
>>Is it the train of thought, "I had it hard, so it's not fair that others should have it easier"? If so, then perhaps thinking patterns should be re-evaluated and re-adjusted. If not, then please explain to me why you feel this way.
Leeches have already made it infinitely easier for 'younger' empaths to learn transference. I've seen people hop over a dozen circles in a couple months there. Circles that took me about a month each. So please don't say that you don't have it easier already.
Transference was always designed as a go out and do it yourself skill, like MO. To be able to have empaths sit and zombify to a highly skilled teacher (especially with the teaching rewrite) defeats the purpose of the skill. I spoke to a few higher circle empaths about it last night, and most were generally of the same mind as myself. I know that I would never teach this skill simply because its a skill I think you have to earn, not something that should be handed to you. This is just -my- opinion.
You are certainly free to lobby to make transference even easier to learn than it is now. I personally don't think we need any more reason to call us useless zombie mules.
Shaunn
Leeches have already made it infinitely easier for 'younger' empaths to learn transference. I've seen people hop over a dozen circles in a couple months there. Circles that took me about a month each. So please don't say that you don't have it easier already.
Transference was always designed as a go out and do it yourself skill, like MO. To be able to have empaths sit and zombify to a highly skilled teacher (especially with the teaching rewrite) defeats the purpose of the skill. I spoke to a few higher circle empaths about it last night, and most were generally of the same mind as myself. I know that I would never teach this skill simply because its a skill I think you have to earn, not something that should be handed to you. This is just -my- opinion.
You are certainly free to lobby to make transference even easier to learn than it is now. I personally don't think we need any more reason to call us useless zombie mules.
Shaunn
I don't think NPC empaths are going away, and there would just be more convenience empaths created. I do think they can be updated and redesigned. IC, these empaths don't have to be great. Martyr could retire.
They could be charity hospitals for those who cannot afford to pay, so based on a sliding scale fee. For simplicity sake this could be based on circle. While different professions have more or less earning potential, it can be based on a reasonably low expectation. From a logic perspective, those paying the higher fees would be subsidizing the poorer patients. These are the places all the imaginary commoners would be going to get healed.
We have RL systems like this. The U.S. medicare system is basically the above. Government payouts have a ceiling, the hospitals can't charge the government more than X for Y service. They can charge more for those with private insurance or no insurance.
The higher circle one got, the more monetary sense it would make to go to a PC empath. Once new alchemy is in there will be herbs for everything so if a high level player doesn't want to pay high fees at an NPC, and either doesn't want a PC or can't find one they will still have herbs they can use.
Early on this is one reason PC empaths were so popular. Everyone was under 20th circle so PC empaths were expensive in relation to what they could earn, so were herbs. As adventurers advanced it became a point of pride to pay PC empaths the same amount as NPC empaths. The NPC price scale has become what healing is "worth". Anything more is considered gifting the empath. Changing NPC pricing will change the value players put on empaths.
With the rewrites being done on critters I think it will also be possible for NPC empaths to be more like PC empaths, in that they will use mana and have ranks. That too will help.
Dellica
They could be charity hospitals for those who cannot afford to pay, so based on a sliding scale fee. For simplicity sake this could be based on circle. While different professions have more or less earning potential, it can be based on a reasonably low expectation. From a logic perspective, those paying the higher fees would be subsidizing the poorer patients. These are the places all the imaginary commoners would be going to get healed.
We have RL systems like this. The U.S. medicare system is basically the above. Government payouts have a ceiling, the hospitals can't charge the government more than X for Y service. They can charge more for those with private insurance or no insurance.
The higher circle one got, the more monetary sense it would make to go to a PC empath. Once new alchemy is in there will be herbs for everything so if a high level player doesn't want to pay high fees at an NPC, and either doesn't want a PC or can't find one they will still have herbs they can use.
Early on this is one reason PC empaths were so popular. Everyone was under 20th circle so PC empaths were expensive in relation to what they could earn, so were herbs. As adventurers advanced it became a point of pride to pay PC empaths the same amount as NPC empaths. The NPC price scale has become what healing is "worth". Anything more is considered gifting the empath. Changing NPC pricing will change the value players put on empaths.
With the rewrites being done on critters I think it will also be possible for NPC empaths to be more like PC empaths, in that they will use mana and have ranks. That too will help.
Dellica
<<Healing by empath is also not necessary. It will become even less necessary when Alchemy is rewritten and there will be very effective herbs for all bodyparts. It is a convenience, just because it is common does not make it less so. For the most part, herbs are sufficient. Many of the NPC empaths have things that they will not heal, just like herbs, in the majority of cases, both options offer incomplete healing. I see no reason why we can't eliminate one of the incomplete alternatives to PC existance. Herbs are a big part of many systems, NPC empaths are not. Its obvious to me which one of them should be phased out.
Shaunn >>
Healing by empath (whether player or NPC) can be necessary to game play. Will be less so when Alchemy is rewritten, yes. Which is waiting on substances (ugh). For the most part herbs are sufficient. For the other part they are not. Herbs are a big part of the system, but they're not finished. When they are you'll have a valid point. Especially if there becomes a herb for vitality. There have been times when the bleeding and almost dead diseased folk were sent towards the Martyr to grab vitality healing, because empaths were busy/not on duty. When my non-empath characters are in less populated areas i'll head over to an NPC anytime instead of roaming for a half hour trying to find an on duty empath. Barbs can forge great weapons, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of the weapon shop in town. Empaths are the best healers, but i don't see the need to phase out an NPC. If you truely believe its such a small part of the healing system, i don't see how it can be interupting your game play any. Why not leave the option for those who choose to use it.
Lassine
Shaunn >>
Healing by empath (whether player or NPC) can be necessary to game play. Will be less so when Alchemy is rewritten, yes. Which is waiting on substances (ugh). For the most part herbs are sufficient. For the other part they are not. Herbs are a big part of the system, but they're not finished. When they are you'll have a valid point. Especially if there becomes a herb for vitality. There have been times when the bleeding and almost dead diseased folk were sent towards the Martyr to grab vitality healing, because empaths were busy/not on duty. When my non-empath characters are in less populated areas i'll head over to an NPC anytime instead of roaming for a half hour trying to find an on duty empath. Barbs can forge great weapons, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of the weapon shop in town. Empaths are the best healers, but i don't see the need to phase out an NPC. If you truely believe its such a small part of the healing system, i don't see how it can be interupting your game play any. Why not leave the option for those who choose to use it.
Lassine
A few quick points (before I'm late to class.. again <G>)
I do not suggest genocide be waged on NPC empaths til Alchemy 2.0 is out.
>>Empaths are the best healers
There's no such thing as 'best' healers. Hunters only care about the end result (no wounds) for the most part. This can be herbs, PCs or NPCs. The only difference is speed. And, since your point argues that NPC healers are 'faster' to find than PCs. This clearly, in your opinion, makes them a 'better' option.
>>Barbs can forge great weapons, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of the weapon shop in town
The end result of a forged weapon is generally much much better than the shop variety. There is no difference between the end results of PCs, NPCs or herbs, as I mentioned in the above paragraph. If NPC were sloppy, left you partially scarred and battered, that might be different. But, as it is, there are only a handful of things they don't heal, and that's only in a small number of cases anyway.
Shaunn
I do not suggest genocide be waged on NPC empaths til Alchemy 2.0 is out.
>>Empaths are the best healers
There's no such thing as 'best' healers. Hunters only care about the end result (no wounds) for the most part. This can be herbs, PCs or NPCs. The only difference is speed. And, since your point argues that NPC healers are 'faster' to find than PCs. This clearly, in your opinion, makes them a 'better' option.
>>Barbs can forge great weapons, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of the weapon shop in town
The end result of a forged weapon is generally much much better than the shop variety. There is no difference between the end results of PCs, NPCs or herbs, as I mentioned in the above paragraph. If NPC were sloppy, left you partially scarred and battered, that might be different. But, as it is, there are only a handful of things they don't heal, and that's only in a small number of cases anyway.
Shaunn
