wtb names, though it's getting easier to fill in the blanks as the thread progresses.


- Mazrian

The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png

<<the ideas of empath payment police and empaths punishing/disciplining oher empaths based on what they will and will not take is really really disturbing.


^ ^ ^

This. I have a younger empath right now and I find the attitudes she's witnessed from 'older' empaths very disturbing as well. She hasn't felt it first hand yet (as she doesn't 'charge' for healing and is happy in just accepting a thank you) but I'm sure at some point she will. This is also the main reason why she doesn't sit in the guild any longer.

What I'm also finding disturbing is the amount of apologies my empath gets from the players who can't afford to tip. It's like people have been berated so much from the other empaths who demand payment/tip that they're afraid all empaths are going to do that to them when that just isn't the case.

this is a psyduck moment


~Arwinia

The Empath spellbook is a riddle trapped in an enigma hidden inside a lot of suck.-Armifer

>>What I'm also finding disturbing is the amount of apologies my empath gets from the players who can't afford to tip.<<

You have been duped. You have been lied to. You have been snookered. EVERY player can afford to tip. Sure, that tip may not be much, but if a player is coming to you with wounds, then they can afford to tip. They have some coin in their bank accounts, they have boxes, or skins, or coins, or gems that they've picked up. The bottom line is, they SAY they can't afford to tip you, hoping that you won't hold it against them the next time they do the exact same thing to another empath. It is a measure of how much value they place on you, the healing empath, that leads them to apologize and say they're too poor. That value is ZERO. They know that there are other empaths out there and they'll keep getting healed and then AFTER the fact apologize profusely and promise a nice big tip when they're a bigger character. It's all a crock of leucro poop.

While I disagree with abusing empaths who heal for free, or don't charge up front, or think that hugs and smiles are acceptable forms of tipping, the reason some more "seasoned" empaths either refuse to heal, or require up front payment is because of the endless lack of appreciation for the services they provide.


________________________________________

If it helps, just think of yourself as the fluorescent light in the buglamp of life.

- GM Dartenian

<<You have been duped. You have been lied to. You have been snookered. EVERY player can afford to tip.

Sorry. What I -should- have said is.. "What I'm also finding disturbing is the amount of apologies my empath gets from the players who can't afford to tip AT THAT MOMENT". Either all their coin is in the bank or they need to sell their bundle or what have you. They usually do run off, go get some coin and come back to tip her. Yes they should have done that before coming for healing but crap happens. It's just how they act when that happens, apologetic to the extreme, like they've been yelled at repeatedly for having done it in the past.

I have yet to see a lack of appreciation for the healing I've provided to anyone.

>>I do this all the time. I'm not going to hold 5-10 gold while I wait for someone to heal me while the coin can get stolen. Assuming it's in crossing or Riverhaven you can make it to the bank and back in about 5 seconds. I never apologize for it, just let the empath know what i'm doing<<

This is perfectly acceptable and makes good sense. It's the ones that DON'T do this that I find irritating.


________________________________________

If it helps, just think of yourself as the fluorescent light in the buglamp of life.

- GM Dartenian

>>This was my Empath. Also the cost is calculated by how many wounds you have, you only had a few, even though one was severe, it ended up not being very expensive. I may need to tweak the prices for much worse wounds.

I think that once you have established a relationship with whoever is asking for the healing you probably won't need or want a calculator. I wouldn't charge or accept tips if I were an Empath, but if you want to charge I think you should ask for more than you currently do.


>>It has nothing to do with money for her.

I understand that way of things. I don't aim for money either, which is why I don't have very much, but I always try to find a decent sum for an Empath that doesn't delay me getting back to the things I would rather be doing.

Same tip I use on all my characters these days.


My biggest question is why are Empaths starting to ask for money?

I took a sizable break from DR. I don't remember Empaths asking for money before I left. What's changed?


~Nitish

You hear the voice of Edgee ask, "Do we have a plan, knowing they're listening?"

You say, "the plan is to not have a plan for them to listen to."

>>He asked again, and another Empath agreed and started healing him. At which point the other, 'charge first' Empaths started questioning this guy's loyalty to the guild and other taunts and threats.

The log is in the conflicts folder, but I don't think anyone taunted or threatened him, per se, (at least not at first) and the person questioning his reasons for healing was not an Empath.

>>Somehow my character got drug out and spam stunned over and over by some Moon Mage friend of the two empaths in question.

This was Caelumia, because Mord touched her and made a somewhat lewd remark.

>>The Empath healing me came out to continue healing while my character was being stunned, and he was put to sleep then drug away by one of the "charging Empaths".

It's not a good idea to heal someone who is in the middle of being attacked. This opens you up to being attacked by the person who is doing the attacking. Szrael slept the Empath and moved him into a safe area because he was interfering, not because he was healing for free. If preventing him from healing at all was anyone's aim, we could have slept him when he started to in the first place. If our goal is ostensibly to prevent healing by people who don't charge, it seems like sleeping them before they can heal would be better than letting them nearly finish and then only sleeping them when then start healing in the middle of a confrontation.

>>Afterward we all returned and got into a heated discussion (which was awesome RP btw, no one broke character which is a rarity).

I agree, though I'm not sure why you thought it needed a thread here, if it was so awesome.

>>In my opinion it crosses the line. They have a right to charge but another empath has just as much right to do it for free, or accept a tip, or to not heal at all, if they don't want to.

Again, it wasn't the charging or not-charging, it was the healing someone while someone else is attacking them. When the conflict was over, the Empath returned to the Empath guild and finished healing your character without any further problems. He did say he was going to report, insulted both Szrael and Hummel, and act totally immature, but all of that is in the log in the conflicts folder if anyone really wants to read it.

-- Player of Szrael --

---

You grip the oversized book hanging from your leather belt and survey the area with a hint of malice in your eyes.

With a violent cross-body motion, you draw your oversized book.

>>I applaud the ones who are doing it for the RP and do it respectfully. Although it does seem/feel like there are a few who are doing it with the soul purpose to get into CvC conflicts just because they can (i.e. character is bigger, has stunning/sleep spells, etc).

This was something I came to term with in the first week of playing Ohana. There is going to be conflict. She is going to be killed at some point. And it's okay since I realize this, and will be prepared to RP it out.

But I think what's going on is, people are assuming Empaths cannot or will not fight back at all, so they do not bite their tongues as they normally would, and it shocks them when something occurs.

It is not my place to judge whether another Empath felt they were insulted enough to start a conflict, but once someone slings an insult my way, if I had the ability to take action (whether kicking them out, or fighting), I would.

It's nothing someone should just accept as is, and it's a shame I currently have to.

>>But I think what's going on is, people are assuming Empaths cannot or will not fight back at all, so they do not bite their tongues as they normally would, and it shocks them when something occurs.

This. This exactly . The last person Szrael killed due to Empath stuff said this to her:

"What are you going to do to me, you fat little puff?"

People are also a lot quicker to attack Empaths (when they finally decide to) because they assume that they'll easily prevail.

I've tested this theory numerous times. I attacked a known reporter with a noob character (using energy bolt). They killed the noob instead of reporting. I brought the noob back and kept attacking, and they walked him. But these are people who don't like conflict and report to avoid it. Right?

The reason Empath stuff so often ends in conflicts is because people are a lot more willing to engage (or instigate) CvC if they think they'll win.

Remember, when attacking an Empath: there is ignominy in defeat and no glory in victory.

-- Player of Szrael --

>>I applaud the ones who are doing it for the RP and do it respectfully. Although it does seem/feel like there are a few who are doing it with the soul purpose to get into CvC conflicts just because they can (i.e. character is bigger, has stunning/sleep spells, etc).

What does being respectful have to do with RP? My empath is anything but the snugglyhuggybearsmoocher no matter who arrives, "friend" or otherwise. His RP is rude, abrasive, and consistent from Legendary Barbarians to Novice Bards. Oh, and he charges up front for healing and argues for hours on end with anyone who disagrees with his opinions.

Oh, he's 17th circle though and has the combat skills of a limp noodle.

I've had some good times duking it out with "angry" people I've never met before while chuckling in OOC whispers. (Separation of player and character is a good thing, fyi.)

>>Same here, just like Cael and I were doing. Like I said, it isn't the RP I'm questioning or the players behind the characters...it's, "Is this acceptable to the Empath Guild as a whole?"

Charging? I would say most definitely. The Auto-Empaths all charge a fee for their service, and you can't even barter with them. It's a RP style, I don't see why it is anyone's concern.

Doing something about people who are rude? Again, yes. Empaths were given the ability to kick people out for a reason, regardless of whether they are plain old always rude, or rude because someone is charging them.

I didn't see the other Empath "attacked" in that log (this is what you are referring to, correct?). The Empath healing during conflict automatically gave Caelumia consent (against the Empath). In my opinion, it was much more kind of Szrael to sleep the Empath and stash them away until they woke up and the other conflict had concluded.

>>The question I raised was whether this type of behavior...the attitude, the almost automatic attempt to kick people out

It wasn't really an attempt, at least on Mordiazi. If the Empaths had really wanted him out, he would have been out. The other fellow was outright insulting with no provocation that I could see, so yes, he deserved what he got. If Szrael and Hummel had really wanted Mordiazi out, he would have been out.

>> (while it's okay for friends to attack those in the guild hall), the way one Empath attacked another

Szrael slept the Empath outside, not inside the guildhall, where he went of his own volition.

I don't think the sleeping was much in the way of an attack, but fine. Again, though, it wasn't inside the Empath guild.

>>The question I raised was whether this type of behavior...is going to be considered acceptable within the guild or not.

Why would it be unacceptable? Would it be unacceptable for the Warrior Mage guild? The Ranger guild? There is no Empath Guild Ethical Committee, no Empath Code of Honor, no oaths to heal the sick, no spiritual component, no divine callings, etc. There isn't even an Empathic Guild version of the Hippocratic Oath.

Basically, the Empath guild is a guild. It will have rude people, gentle, happy people, mean people, nice people, and everything in between. But there isn't any sort of Empathic Code of Conduct. Maybe you're thinking about the Paladin guild.

-- Player of Szrael --

---

You grip the oversized book hanging from your leather belt and survey the area with a hint of malice in your eyes.

With a violent cross-body motion, you draw your oversized book.

<<SPECIALSAUCES

Being respectful doesn't necessarily mean always having to be the snugglyhuggybearsmoocher. You can still be gruff and abrasive and still not cross over certain lines, Gromnir was a great example of this. I've played characters in the past that were completely cold and I never once had to resort to being outright disrespectful to another player.

<<My biggest question is why are Empaths starting to ask for money?>>

Because it's part of their profession. They want to be paid for the service that they are offering.

Szrael isn't the first Empath to ask for payment in Prime and she won't be the last. I remember Madelyna (not sure if I spelled her character's name right) doing the same thing around 6 years ago. But, it'll always be an uphill climb for Szrael and people who ask for payments for the service of healing. Part of the challenge is by facing this uphill climb of a situation.

The alternative is for another person to be given the service freely by one mean ("pet empaths") or another.

In my opinion, there is very little solidarity with Empaths and it should've started from the very beginning. But, it didn't. I am referring to Empath characters and not players who play Empaths as their main character. People got accustomed toward the healing aspect which Empaths provide with the lackadaisical insistence of output given in return for the service. Eventually, tradition took form to what you typically see. This traditional mindstate is why you see Szrael and most Empaths who offer their healing service for a cost end up being in a conflictual situation.

- Simon

>>One interesting thing I have noticed though is that the people who are offended by an Empath demanding payment upfront are generally the ones who would have tipped well regardless. The ones who typically tip poorly or not at all either pay without complaint or just go elsewhere.

I don't think it's possible to know for sure. Where are you getting your data from? People always seem to think they pay well. Sometimes Szrael will appraise gems she's given and people seem surprised at how little they are actually worth.

The shock I sense from people asked to negotiate the payment upfront is similar to the shock I imagine there would be if a server, say, asked to be paid prior to waiting someone's table. As if the Empath is being terribly rude and overstepping his or her bounds. It also breaks the typical patient-Empath script, in which the Empath wordlessly heals the person, indicates that they are finished. The other person thanks, gives tip, hugs, and leaves. People seem to prefer not to deviate from that script. Often they don't, they just keep hitting their "need healing" macro over and over until they get bored or until some other Empath heals them.

>>The only thing I can surmise is that some people feel insulted that they are not being trusted to properly show gratitude

I guess they view healing profoundly differently from Empaths who ask to negotiate the fee upfront. When my mechanic fixes my car, I don't pay him because I'm -grateful- that he fixed my car. I pay him because he fixed my car. And he certainly doesn't let me decide on his fee based on how grateful I am and how good a job I think he did.

To Szrael and others, there's no "gratitude" in the equation -- a sincere thank you or other acknowledgement is enough for that. She simply wants to be paid what she views to be fairly for services rendered. She doesn't want to be overpaid and thus rendered indebted to someone, nor does she want to be underpaid. Simply, paid.

And, as I've said time and again, a tip is something you give in addition to payment. Tips are fine, I guess (though Szrael would decline them.) But they're not payment.

-- Player of Szrael --

---

You grip the oversized book hanging from your leather belt and survey the area with a hint of malice in your eyes.

With a violent cross-body motion, you draw your oversized book.

>> People I remember having tipped me well are the only ones I have personally seen gripe about upfront fees. Maybe it is just a coincidence or a factor of the times/places I normally haunt.

I notice a lot of people who gripe about being asked for payment and go on to insist they were going to tip a million times that anyway - but refuse to agree to pay.

I have to wonder what the point of griping is if that's the case.

---

Rev. Reene

"When a thing seals itself against its own destruction, it merely dies a different death. All things have a common ground in decay. War is necessary. Death is necessary. Decay is necessary."

>>^This. Oh, the irony. "I was going to tip a million times that, but since you are asking for payment up front, you can forget it. I'm not paying a thing, and I won't tip you well either..." Ya, right.

Heh, I had a guy the other day with one insignificant wound, and told him 5 bronze (it's a wound that would take almost none of my time to either take or clean myself from).

He then proceeded to pay me, and then tell me how he was going to tip me a gold until I asked him to pay.


I think that's just hilarious. Really? What's the point in saying something? It's not like I'm not going to charge. I asked what I thought it was worth. It's just like a smack to the face to bring it up.

>For many I think it feels like a slap in the face when Empaths ask for a fee.

I don't understand how that's a slap in the face. You aren't helping the Empath by killing random creatures, or dualing with other characters. How is it offensive that someone wants to get paid for taking all your pain on to themselves?

>With so many players that have been around for 10+ years, I don't think that will ever go away entirely. We are just too stuck in our ways to change :).

Eh? I've been playing for that long and I wouldn't be offended if an Empath asked me to pay them. Not all of us are stuck in our ways.


Elemancer Opieus, Warrior Mage of Elanthia
I blame Bubba:
http://the-emu.mybrute.com

>I notice a lot of people who gripe about being asked for payment and go on to insist they were going to tip a million times that anyway - but refuse to agree to pay.

>I have to wonder what the point of griping is if that's the case.

Yeah, I don't get it, unless they're lying. I mean, it's not like you can't pay AND tip. Ever been to a restaurant?