<<I also was curious what everyone thought about having Dazzle moved to the vs fortitude contest? I personally feel like this makes little sense and follows no actual logic. Right now Dazzle is by far much more reliable and also more potent at disabling than mental blast simply because its Spell Versus Agility contest.>>

I am happy dazzle is moving to fortitude. Many people ignore stamina and strength (relative to agility and reflex). The more flexibility we have in disablers, the better. The logic behind the new contest, as I remember it being explained, is that dazzle is a sudden unavoidable flash of blinding light--you can't dodge it but you can "muscle through" the pain of the blinding light.

<<Lastly I just wanna say that I am interested in hearing what EVERYONE thinks and feels about the planned spell list. This effects us all greatly and we need all the input and advice we can muster on the forums. Let it all out! Tell everyone just how you feel about certain spells.>>

I love the new spell list. The only two changes that I dislike are the changes to shear (to make if affect all outgoing spells) and the loss of shift moonbeam. I understand the reasoning behind both changes though, and think we are still coming out way ahead in the end, even without knowing the final form of TKS, Shadow Web, and TV.

<<Shear>>

To understand the changes in shear you need to look at the changes in all warding spells. Spells that protect against the mana type that the spell caster uses will be the basic shield type spell. This is your Psy Shield. These shield spells protect against a select few spells but since they are specialized against your own spell types they don't hinder your own casting ability. ES will only protect against elemental spells and not burn or mind blast.

With the changes spells that shield you for all kind of magic use are very very powerful. To balance this out you have the fact that the shield will now also hinder your own spells. This is what the current necro spell Worm's Mist does.

Yamcer

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"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

I think I remember reading that SOD was going to the analogous patterns book. Who knows what that will mean for the spell's ultimate form.

I don't believe shear is totally cutting off magic at all (like now with the single book). It will be penalizing outgoing spells, all of them, but less than it penalizes incoming spells. Until we see and play with this penalization, it's impossible to give any relevant opinion on how it affects play, or compare it to Worm's Mist in overall coolness/effectiveness.

We also don't know exactly how the spell is being penalized in the context of the new magic "stancing." It's possible that we may be able to set our casting stances in a way that helps diminish the penalty from having shear up. I have no idea how the potency/integrity etc stuff is going to play out. Maybe a capped mana cast goes through shear, outgoing, at half mana. Or maybe the stat check on the end is nerfed for disablers. Maybe there's a TM accuracy penalty, or maybe it's just mana reduction. Both or all? I really don't know much about Worm's Mist or I might have a better prediction on how outgoing spells could be penalized. It would definitely be nice to have a better idea on some of this stuff.

According to the spell description it "Resists ALL SPELLS cast on or by the user, though the user's own spells are penalized less. I might have read this wrong, but its not very clear if we are going to be able cast spells like shadows without being penalized. It would be nice to have an idea of what sort of penalties its talking about. And even if its only targeted magic that is affected, its still a constraint that does not affect a necromancer using mist in the same way SHEAR effects a moon mage. They have risen and can also play around with advancing and retreating to entirely negate the penalty to their own casting. A necromancer gets all the benefits of the most potent barrier for magic while not having to deal with any true constraints to attacking with TM.



-On a side rant-
SOD going to the analogous spell book is sort of a gut shot to the guild IMHO. Anyone can already Invoke the spell as it stands. Its bad enough that as it stands we have more of our spells available on rune stones and scrolls than any other guild. They aren't even replacing the spells that are being removed from our guild. Is any guild giving away as many spells to analogous patterns as the moon mages are? Are any other guilds even giving away one spell to the analogous pattern spell book? Do they have any intention of adding more scrolls/runes into the game from other guilds to balance out how many lunar spells are actually usable by anyone?

Let me get this straight then...Secondary magic guild can cast more powerful magic barrier with less constraints than a primary guild can manage? And this is OK because said secondary magic guild will "most likely" have less TM than a primary magic guild? Also this "Secondary magic" guild can cast and remain hidden, something no primary magic guild could ever figure out? Being primary doesn't make our TM ranks worth more or more powerful than secondary or tertiary guilds. It just means we can learn them faster, something that really doesn't matter and is totally dependent on the play style of each person.
I'm a moon mage and still have more Evasion,parry,shield,multiple opponent and leather armor than I have ranks in TM. My TM is right behind my defenses along with the rest of my weapon skills. All of my combat skills are relatively close and being Primary has no effect on the quality of my TM. Being primary or secondary or tertiary has no relevance to how much of a skill you have. Its just a guide line.

Not trying to be argumentative, but we really don't have more TM just because were primary. Only moon mages who have no combat experience and spend all day in classes have more TM than other combat skills. Skills all learn relatively fast these days anyway. I'm not griping about them getting a magical snipe. I just used this example to point out that being secondary or primary only affects learning rates, not ability. Please come up with a better reasoning than the primary/secondary deal. Its just not a good reason at all. It defeats your point more than it helps it. Primary Magic guilds should have the best spells. All your saying is secondary/tertiary magic guilds should have better spells for the sake of slower learning rates? Really?

And when you relate the power of necromancers to the constraints they have being evil, don't forget to bring up thieves and rangers who also have constraints to being in a city. That is such a weak leg to stand on. They chose to be necromancers, and there is no rule that says being hated gives you access to more powerful magic then the rest of the guilds. Do Thieves and Rangers get better than average quality spells and abilities just because they aren't as capable in city limits? And PVP aside, mist is still by far the more powerful and less constraining magic barrier. Why argue for another guild anyway? You must stand to gain something.

Thanks for pointing that out ALEPH-ONE, awesome feedback. Very solid points I was over looking pertaining to the way spell slots are going to change the way we learn spells. I guess I just wonder now if we have to learn Hypnotize and Calm to learn Mental blast or sleep. It very well could make it so were spending more slots so we can get all four spells that currently work as 2 spells.

-You should have more TM. Given any fixed period of time - 24 hours, a week, a month, a year - and assuming both the Necro and MM are mind locked the entire time, the Moon Mage will have more target magic. Primary experience drains faster than secondary experience. This advantage is definitive and built into game mechanics; arguing against it is silly, IMHO.-


-You can cap Shear quicker than a Necro can cap Mist be virtue of your skillset. That is one advantage. In magic 3.0, Shear may be more powerful than Worm's Mist, anyways: caps will be determined by skillset and "guild focus," so it stands to reason that a Moon Mage would have more focus on magical defense than a Necro, just like a Necro would have more focus on hiding.-

Should and will are two different things. Its Assuming a lot to suggest everyone has TM locked 24/7. Individual play style is the only real factor. The difference in learning rates between tertiary and primary has been reduced already and IIRC the difference will be reduced even more later on. We are NOT talking about the learning rates here. Or who will cap the spells faster. Were simply talking about the over all effectiveness of the spells. If you believe that Mist should remain more potent at deflecting magic, and also have more utility and less constraints to casting, then just say it. I feel like this post is getting off track with the whole primary secondary thing. Why don't we take a close look at the three barriers were talking about.


Aether Cloak:
An esoteric cyclic Aether Warding spell. It provides a barrier versus TM spells only (think Shear-like here) with the effect that if Aether Cloak wins, the TM spell is instead reflected at its full strength back at the caster. If it loses, the spell is weakened by the power of the Cloak but goes through. The barrier does not ablate as it takes hits. The Cloak hinders the caster's own TM spells as badly as outside spells, but they cannot hurt themselves.


Aether Cloak Description points out that it only affects TM and will fully reflect a spell cast of an enemy but will not harm themselves at all. And is Non-ablative


Worm's Mist:
An esoteric Transcendental Warding spell. Non-ablative variable cast magic barrier. Same as now.


Worm's Mist is staying the same. And according to Armifer it is the most potent form of magic resistance in game. As I pointed out, they have a RISEN(which is also "built into game mechanics") which allows them to attack with TM unhindered while their barrier is active. They can also choose to form the barrier at pole range to self cast or cast at anything unhindered at melee range while there barrier is active. Also Non-ablative.


Shear
Esoteric Warding. Resists all spells cast on or by the user, though the user's own spells are penalized less. If a spell is repelled by Shear, the target is subject to a reactive stun.

Again, I might be confused because the description given to us is rather limited. But from what we can see it appears that all of our spells will be affected when shear is active. Also, there is nothing that indicates that the moon mage will not suffer a stun with SHEAR active or that the spell will not remain Ablative. Based on what we can see here, SHEAR is the least useful magic barrier. It is as much of a detriment to the moon mage as it is to anyone else. I personally believe that if the spell remains so constraining it ought to offer a very potent increase in magical defense compared to the other barriers available with less constraints.

I agree that is still quite early and nothing is set in stone. But I still feel like the changes suggested to Shear should be looked at closely and discussed by everyone. The forum is here for this reason. I don't feel like I am jumping to conclusions, I'm simply asking questions, offering my opinions and trying to get input from the rest of the guild.

I really like your point about SLS. That is an awesome piece of insight and something I did over look in regards to our ability to use TM while a barrier is active. Thanks for taking the time to think about what I was saying and offering that awesome feedback.

Would be nice if a GM could confirm if SHEAR will affect all magic or just TM. And if the spell will remain Ablative.

Let's avoid the GvG please.

-Vorofilum
If you have questions or comments, please email me at (Mod-Vorofilum@play.net) or Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at (DR-Sidatura@play.net) or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl (DR-Annwyl@play.net).

First I want to say thanks for all the feedback. I appreciate all the thought you guys put into your responses.

Give me a little bit of credit on this one. I have compared the only spells that can be compared to SHEAR in functionality, and weighted the information available to us before forming my opinion. I even said I could very well be wrong and asked a GM to verify a few things that the Description of SHEAR is not clear about. I still feel my assessment is correct. SHEAR would be far too constraining if it affected all spells being cast. Similarly if it remains Ablative and as cumbersome to remove as it is now, it will be lacking in comparison to the other similar barrier spells utility.

If however SHEAR does not affect all spells cast and loses its Ablative nature, I will not feel the same way about it being too constraining.


I would respond further about picking my poison, but don't want to get into the GvG thing again. I understand how Mist works just fine.

---They can also choose to form the barrier at pole range to self cast or cast at anything unhindered at melee range while there barrier is active.---

clearly I used the words POLE range and MELEE range to show this. Although I do thank you for trying to help me.

Sorry if I was being overly defensive of my opinions. They are just my opinions after all. And if my mother was right, anyone who agrees with all my non sense is either a fool or planning to skin me.

>>I have a bad attitude about this, I know. We are losing enchanting as a "Special Ability". We are losing shift moonbeam because it ruins a feeling of distance?
>>I should just lay down and take it. I know.
>>RF used to be awesome. I'm still not over that.

I feel your pain, somewhat. Passive BMR and "you can't touch me" high-level magic resistance are dying. Barbs already lost weapon forging, and went from needing primary weapons ranks to tert lore ranks. Soon we'll need to learn "magic" ranks to dance well, who would have though?

Beneath the surface, though, all those changes have been (or will be) objectively good for the game as a whole.
*******
Malkien

This discussion of barriers and TM is silly.

If you want to learn TM with Shear up (I honestly have no idea why you would), cast Starlight Sphere and learn how to use it.

Moon Mages have every important tool in the magic toolkit. Yes, it would be fantastic if Moonies had a version of Vivisection. Yes, it would be fantastic if Moonies had a version of Fire Rain. I could keep going like this but it would be pointless and ultimately irritating.

Shift Moonbeam was what it was: a spell of limited utility that people became very reliant on. Anyone who has actually trained their Moonie (to which I mean utilized the Survival secondary skillset placement for more than sitting around foraging while they irritate people with their inane antics in a gather spot) probably isn't going to see a real decline in utility with Mirror Wraith. I haven't decided if I'm going to take it at all, however, simply because Astral Travel is way more efficient and I can't honestly see a situation where it's more useful to send the Mirror Wraith than to just go myself.

I think his point was complaining about the change to barrier spells indicates, more than anything, that you haven't thought about the other spells we have, such as SLS and how they may facilitate TM learning while having a magic barrier in place. I'm not sure at all what you're getting at with the 'maybe we should all talk OOC in game' tangent.

As for Mirror Wraith, I think the point of us being survival secondary, and thus rendering MW somewhat obsolete is a good one; are there any plans to enhance it's functionality?

>>I liked the irritate people with their inane antics bit, that made me laugh. The truth is though you can't train survivals to swim from Tais to Kresh/Riss, and Ratha to Aesry. I see a lot of SM being used there, more so even than the bin to Haven for what its worth.


Sadly in this case you are right, it affects lower-mid level moon mages more than anyone else and only really those who are islanders. For the most part though once you have the skill in the ways with the introduction of the new shards its not that hard to drop a beam jump in a pathway and come out another shard.

Mirror Wraith I can't really see it having much function in its current form unfortunately, adding an athletics boost is nice, but really only if it taught us athletics while we were in that form.
_______________________
As good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
-John Milton

>I feel your pain, somewhat. Passive BMR and "you can't touch me" high-level magic resistance are dying. Barbs already lost weapon forging, and went from needing primary weapons ranks to tert lore ranks. Soon we'll need to learn "magic" ranks to dance well, who would have though?

Thanks. I needed a new perspective on the subject. All good points, well made.

---

You're a moon mage: death should come as no surprise.

>>The two will be inexorably linked however and any physical harm which befalls one will surely befall the other. Including death.

That would make the spell more useless than it currently is.

Putting more thought into this though

Mirror Wraith as long as it allows us to move through areas where teleportation or beams are not permitted has a good and valuable function, improved upon the base aspect of SM. Extremely Niche but it would be what you used RF for before, when it was basically a guaranteed can't hurt me button.

Pass through the tunnel of evil gremlins, come out the otherside and turn into a beam. Yay.

Shift moonbeam for the most part has limited function, the one function I'm going to miss which will most likely go away is the ability trade beams by shifting one through a moon gate
_______________________
As good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
-John Milton

>Shift moonbeam for the most part has limited function, the one function I'm going to miss which will most likely go away is the ability trade beams by shifting one through a moon gate

Since Moongate is going to be a cyclical spell, it may be entirely possible that you can do this in M3.0. We already know that you will be able to abandon the location of your moongate (at added cost, whatever that may be), so the requirement of needing an anchor - at least on both sides - seems to be something that is in doubt. Also, I believe you'll be able to keep a cyclical spell going while casting other spells, right? So this might be doable. Would be great, if so.

Also, I'm really looking forward to Mirror Wraith. To me, it's a cool spell thematically, and I can see some significant uses for it, such as going in to the location of a deader while being invulnerable, letting them know the gate will be opening soon, and so on.

Furthermore, losing Shift Moonbeam is going to make Astral Guides more popular, assuming Astral Guides make it into the new enchanting system.

-That would make the spell more useless than it currently is.-

I disagree. If you could possess something and it died and you went away unscathed it would be extremely Overpowered and have no drawback. If you could say, possess a rock troll but not kill it, you could essentially still control the rock troll to attack another troll or creature for its loot or the experience. This spell is probably way too powerful for more reasons than one, and I didn't imagine anyone would say it was more useless than an athletics boost.


The MW spell as it is currently planned is by far less valuable than it should be regardless. If you are afraid to run through that scary cave of gremlins to get to the other side, then cast Refractive field or invisibility and run through as you yourself mentioned. And while RF is not as strong as it used to be, If you train stealth like a survival secondary guild with one of the best hiding boosts in the game ought to, then you will be able to travel around with RF just fine.

The difference between the amount of mana you are holding and if you fully prepare the spell are large factors in the spells success. If you snap cast RF and hold 5 mana its not going to do anything for you really. If you cast shadows on yourself, fully prepare RF and harness a significant amount of mana the results will probably surprise you.

We don't need an invulnerable form. Shift Moonbeam is currently infinitely more useful than MW would ever be as it is planned. We really need to get behind this one as a guild and ask for improvements. And if you can't suggest a better alternative then maybe you could help others with their ideas instead of shoot them down without any reasoning.