To be honest I think this has been a long time coming. I was actually about to start trying to gather folks to discuss these things and post about it (but you beat me too it).

Personally I feel the necromancer guild was something that sounded amazing on paper and just doesn't live up to it in play/action. I would be shocked to find that many necro players don't have alts just to survive the game especially high level ones. MOST necros I know have alts just to "play" the game most of the time, which is rather telling.

> How often do you interact with individuals, larger groups, or at actual events? In what way(s) in general do you find interaction or new people to play with?

If it isn't necrospecific: I don't. I've learned that any events either becomes awkward because of the schism it creates where I want to participate but the only way that really is in my ability is to be disruptive. Events are mostly held in justice areas where anyone can just remove me without me having much recourse (even if I don't do anything other than be there) or where I will get tons of SO by just doing anything.

Necrospecific: Major events don't happen other than player run stuff and I attend those just to try and be supportive because I know what a nightmare it is to run these and what a wasteland it feels like as a necro player wanting to RP.

> What avenues do you see as available for a Necromancer interested in getting involved in events, be they player-run or GM-run? If your answer to this is "keep it a secret," what happens to your character and their relationships and community/event investment when the truth inevitably gets out? If this has happened to you, how did you deal with it and how did it change how you played your character and how much you enjoyed playing your character?

See above. I sadly don't see much where there aren't mental or philosophical Olympics involved when it comes to most events. This is especially true when I hit NecroLord. Pretty much no event should welcome me unless it is an "evil/bad" plot and those really don't exist. Outting was a major event for me and it really built the character.

>How invested do you feel in the community at large (i.e. more than just other Necromancers)? What do you do when there is an event or festival you want to attend but know your character would not realistically be welcome there? How do you deal with Justice/ACCUSE when balancing this desire?

I don't. I play other characters for that. When it comes to Quests/Fests/etc on Sijan where I always just take a character on my other account because I don't want to deal with the awkward IC/OOC that gets created when everyone has to deal with me being there. If it is in Justice I don't go. Not worth it to be able to have anyone just accuse me while also knowing that everyone should accuse me.

> If people know, do people harass you, do they just pretend you don't exist (zero interaction), or do they shoot first and ask questions never?

Being a first generation necro, I think I mostly avoided this by being under the radar for long enough people didn't know and now being one of the HLCs that people avoid. People rarely shoot first but that is probably more of a HLC thing because once you get to where you can drop people relatively quickly and you all hunt in the same areas you kind of have an unspoken bond to not kill each other because you can just get killed while hunting. So I kind of skipped this in a strange way.

> How much of either your interaction or avoidance of interaction is grounded in PvP? What would you, using all of your background and experience, say to a 50th circle Necromancer that has been "outted" if they ask you how to find roleplay or hooks within the community that is not purely PvP?

Any time I am doing almost any event that isn't all necromancers (and even sometimes then) I have to sit there and check everyone's profile to see if any trouble breaks out who can or cannot cause reporting issues. If I am in a group of other guild people I have to know when I can or can't use my main abilities to avoid getting tons of fines, SO, or killing the wrong person and getting warned. I can't control USOL or pets and what are my main sources of damage: USOL and pets.

> In general, do you believe the current state of the global, unyielding "forced pariah" status of Necromancers has given you more opportunities to roleplay, or fewer?

Fewer to an exponential degree that I literally have been debating rerolling Sijan lately (and by lately I mean probably the last 6 months). Yes rerolling a 170+ character that I have loved and put so much effort into for years.

> Additional Point

I have realized that there really is no "end game" for necromancers and I don't just mean Risen and States of Beings. I mean what do we do? The only way to really interact is mostly a negative way for other players. Most "end game" goals tend to involve not only your work but recognition from others. If you want to be the best at a crafting you need to be able to interact with people to do said crafting (which the thought is necromancer's shouldn't be able to help others for obvious reasons). If you want to join a militia or any major order and feel like you are impacting the story you have to not be a necromancer (pretty much the only requirement for a lot of these). The main end game for necromancers is PvP and causing disruptions so much that the only things we even kind of know about our ultimate abilities (states of being) is that they are going to help us do this.

It is a dead end (pun intented) and abandon hope all ye who enter here.

These specific questions are what keep me from investing time in a Necromancer, because I always imagine the answer is 'no' to social things without causing disruption.

>>GMs you do amazing jobs and thank you for all your work!

Sort of.

The support system for the Necromancers didn't materialize in the way that I envisioned, and the reasons behind that are many and complex. The most pressing one, however, is that I have not invested the time in the guild that I expected to be able to.

When I initially designed the guild I had a plot line in mind with a beginning (the coalition of the Philosophers) a middle (the completion of the Philosophy) and an end (finding Transcendence). That did not happen, again for many reasons not least of which is fault of my own, and ultimately we entered two concurrent problems.

1) System support for the plot lagged behind because the plot lagged behind because the system support for the plot lagged behind. Iterate to infinity.
2) GM hours became scarcer and everyone was required to put on multiple hats. I didn't imagine ever being an ASGM when this began, I honestly thought my "career trajectory" was going to be Necro Dude for the indefinite future.

So everything just sort of fell apart.

I don't know if this is something we can fix. Something has got to break, but I don't know where the breaking point is or how clean it's going to be. I would like to push forward, but its been about half a decade now and no significant progress has been made.

I appreciate understanding, but I am also sorry to have placed you in this situation.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

I'm willing to admit failed experiment status at this point. I'll leave interpretation to the experts.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

>>I respect and appreciate these comments more than I can really put into words. It is hard to see something you work on not turn out how you want especially due to various reasons and I have always felt like I couldn't express these viewpoints without sounding like laying blame or having an actual discussion about it.

I've had a considerable change of view about my work re: GMing and personal value over the past few years. At the risk of TMI, my health has never been great but I am finally on a recovery trajectory after many years of misery and medicine, and that's given me the space to rethink how I relate to the world. I'm willing to step back from some positions I would earlier in my time as a GM double-down on. The "purity" of the Necromancer vision is one of them.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

>>How often do you interact with individuals, larger groups, or at actual events? In what way(s) in general do you find interaction or new people to play with?

Almost never. Unless its a festival and even then I keep pretty low key. I am on friendly terms with a good number of people.. mostly because I am completely on the fringes and not 'out'.

>>What avenues do you see as available for a Necromancer interested in getting involved in events, be they player-run or GM-run? If your answer to this is "keep it a secret," what happens to your character and their relationships and community/event investment when the truth inevitably gets out? If this has happened to you, how did you deal with it and how did it change how you played your character and how much you enjoyed playing your character?

There aren't any. Not really. Especially if you are 'out' and I avoid people just to not be outed.

>>How invested do you feel in the community at large (i.e. more than just other Necromancers)? What do you do when there is an event or festival you want to attend but know your character would not realistically be welcome there? How do you deal with Justice/ACCUSE when balancing this desire?

I'm not. Your average player just wants to kill necros or avoid them. Thankfully I am not 'out' and I keep my level low on purpose to avoid being 'outed' so that I can enjoy quests and events and festivals.

>>How much of either your interaction or avoidance of interaction is grounded in PvP? What would you, using all of your background and experience, say to a 50th circle Necromancer that has been "outted" if they ask you how to find roleplay or hooks within the community that is not purely PvP?

I definitely avoid PvP. I find PvP in general in this game is lacking and always has been (played a thief in the 90s/early 2000s that enjoyed it a bit more.. but everyone was far more likely to be around the same level ranges). The abilities are not even slightly balanced between guilds.

Beyond that.. if you are outed.. it seems the RP really dries up and becomes BAD GUY COMETH!!! And that is the fault of the guild design.

>>In general, do you believe the current state of the global, unyielding "forced pariah" status of Necromancers has given you more opportunities to roleplay, or fewer?

Far fewer. There are some great RPers out there.. but you can only do so much.

It is the biggest problem with this guild. It was a failed idea to begin with. You can't have a 'bad guy' guild. You can have a morally grey guild (thieves are a good example). Then people can decide how to react to you based upon your actions and interactions.

With Necros... they painted all the lore as BIG BAD HORRIBLE GUYS OMG KILL THEM KILL THEM HOUND THEM OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!..... And that basically makes the RP go straight to the garbage. Especially since it is hard for a 'normal player' to come up with justification for why they would be friends with a necro considering all the lore and background saying that they shouldn't.

The easiest fix would be to retcon the lore and make it so that the philosphers aren't inherently bad. They are just crazy people that MIGHT be bad. Then.. people will interact with them and see how it goes. If someone IS bad.. they can hound them. If they aren't.. they can just treat them like they would anyone else.

That would allow people to be part of the community... it would open some really awesome doors for RP.

With that said.. I think the GMs who have worked on Necros have done a great job.. but as Armifer mentioned... things just get distracted in GM-land sometimes. If they had implemented everything 5+ years ago maybe it would be in a better situation.. but it didn't happen.. and as it is right now.. it is a solo experience in an MMO. It isn't even hard mode. (very little about the guild is really that hard unless you consider being basically forced to play alone 'hard') And that is the problem.. a guild that encourages avoiding others.. even your own guild.. in an MMO is broken... and needs to be fixed at its core.

I think part of the issue with Necromancers is an issue that anyone roleplaying an "outsider" comes across: if you're not there for the BIG THING that is going on, there is rarely a side-thing that is more tailored to your own needs.

For example, let's say Sorrow War II: Return of the Elpalzi Boogaloo was rolled out as a new global event. The general/worldwide stuff would cover the needs of ~95% of DRs population, meanwhile the 4-6% (based on DR's snapshot census data) who play Necros might need a side-thing for their own under-the-radar participation. It's a big investment on the GMs part, and essentially a whole secondary project/storyline to deal with. I am 100% sure that if resources weren't an issue, GMs would be able to cover the guild's more unique needs to better integrate them into the plot.

Based on my experiences in Plat (and limited experiences playing a Necro in Prime), the "Necro" events are ones that normally take place at or eventually draw players to a guildhall (or other private/restricted/hidden area), where people can discuss things in secrecy. And this is correct to do: the GMNPCs I've come across in Prime and Plat are AMAZING and the experiences they provided are ones I've truly loved and appreciated. But, it's not like a Necro event for necromancers can really be in a more public space, especially in Prime's setting, unless that event is meant to be "and let's fight the other 95% of DR," because more often than not that's what it will probably turn into.

I once had the idea of making a moon mage that just hung out at Taisgath, predicted the weather/future, and broadcast those updates globally via the gweth. But I never really went through with it once I really thought about how boring it would be to sit out there in Taisgath, never really hunting anything except the few shadow mobs on that island, never really going off the island to events, etc.

I feel that's kinda how the Necro guild unintentionally/unexpectedly worked out: if there were event things to do. it would be fine. But more often than not the events in the game aren't tailored to the 5% making the decision to play a game in a restricted manner, and GMs can only do so much.

All that said, I 100% appreciate the fact that everyone working on the Necro guild are becoming more flexible to address these kinds of things. As someone who sees "collect cool stuff" as a cornerstone of DR, I know that mindset was a bit counter to the Necro guild as a whole since it was expected that we might just lose everything and have to deal with it. Now, we have the ability to get CRE which essentially gives our DEPART GUILD a DEPART ITEMS (or is it even FULL?) functionality. I would have never expected that in the past, even when I was banging a gong about wanting a way to recover our "stuff" while also getting out of Dodge. I don't expect Necro banks and Necro vaults anytime soon, but I appreciate that GMs are starting to reconsider and make things a bit more fluid than the previous hardline stances.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

> I look at you guys (necromancers), admittedly from the outside in (don't have one and never intend to), and think that yes, you have it tough as far as being in public and all, but you also have some <amazing> opportunities.

Another view from the outside. My necromancer only made it to level 9. This was many years ago, and I quickly realized how problematic this guild was. First off, I exposed myself waaaaay too early, but I didn't want to play the game alone. Some big players kept harassing him (harassing the character, not the player), anytime they felt a whim. I brought that on myself by opening up, but it's a huge deterrent to me enjoying the guild. Secondly, I found the penalties overly restrictive. I knew they would be tough, but I had no idea how annoying they would be to work around (maybe it's just the early levels?). It's a shame too, because the guild filled a valuable niche in the game. It was unique in terms of skill-set placement, and it was a "solo" oriented guild that had self-healing and high damage capabilities.

I ended up going the route of the necro that learns the error of his ways and begs the gods for forgiveness. They would (in my story) promise a second chance if the necro accepted during a long night of godly lectures in the inn (reroll). My necro was converted into the cleric guild due to the now strong relationship. Suddenly I could play the game again. The difference was night and day, no pun intended. Social interactions became much more pleasant, and I could use my skills.

I would love a way for necros to exist without all of the trade offs, even if I understand why that's likely never going to happen. The moral of the story is that you can't play a necro solo or you're going to end up playing an text-based, grindy MMO by yourself.

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> I am finally on a recovery trajectory after many years of misery and medicine

Congratulations!

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In a completely selfish opinion, I'd make two changes to the necro guild. Remove the always open policy, and turn off DO. If they weren't always open then it could entice more thoughtful RP that didn't end in immediate death. If you turn off DO then it lets the necros use their abilities. SO can still be a thing as there are plenty of things to do and people to see outside of town. Again though, this may just be my playstyle not being compatible with the guild (that's fine), but that's what would make me reroll.

> I ended up going the route of the necro that learns the error of his ways and begs the gods for forgiveness. They would (in my story) promise a second chance if the necro accepted during a long night of godly lectures in the inn (reroll). My necro was converted into the cleric guild due to the now strong relationship. Suddenly I could play the game again. The difference was night and day, no pun intended. Social interactions became much more pleasant, and I could use my skills.

I actually have been debating how possible it is to reverse what Book did and if this would actually be lore-possible.

>>DR-Armifer: The intention is it isn't possible, there's a theme of damnation that's meant to go on.

Lore-wise, is it immediately irreversible, or does it only become irreversible once you reach the point of no return (forsaken status)?

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

sortable list of all Trader-owned shops and inventory: http://www.elanthia.org/TraderShops/

armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide

Hello,

Since you asked I will answer. I only am currently playing only one character. I know that a lot of my input will be disregarded as I am still hidden and am of a lower circle (circle 30 have skills for 32) but I have too considered this all.

>>How often do you interact with individuals, larger groups, or at actual events? In what way(s) in general do you find interaction or new people to play with?<<

I find this difficult if it is in a justice area. I always hear the ticking of the clock before I will be outed. If it is outside of the justice system. I have little trouble. I am however aware that I am taking a chance so am a bit cautious. I have a core of friends that I hang out with. One being another necromancer that I enjoy spending time with. I was even offered a position in a family. Within the next 10 circles or so I plan on getting ROC and then doing a bit more of the events I see. I have made many of the Philosopher Meetings. I have a few ideas to create some more role play for myself but since I believe my character is still not known for her deeds I will not explain it further for once I start will be obvious who I am.

>> What avenues do you see as available for a Necromancer interested in getting involved in events, be they player-run or GM-run? If your answer to this is "keep it a secret," what happens to your character and their relationships and community/event investment when the truth inevitably gets out? If this has happened to you, how did you deal with it and how did it change how you played your character and how much you enjoyed playing your character? <<

Again this is not something that I have faced first hand. I know it is difficult when it happens and puts very big problems in the way. Right now obviously I am going with the keep who you are to yourself. My circle and play style help with that. I think when you are outed you have to come to a decision of what you will do. I do not think it will automatically prevent you from joining the ranks but you will have to be ready to be asked to leave, threaten or even killed.

I do think that necromancers need to band together a bit more if you want more safer role play.

Armifer: I would like to take a second to again thank you for what you have done. I am a returning character. I have played many of the different guilds from time to time. After I rolled up a necromancer I did create an alt so I could go to more of the player run stuff. I deleted the alt. I entered this guild knowing what it meant. I have enjoyed this journey very much. I look forward to doing more and more stuff.

>>I really wish ROC wouldn't go down randomly due to treasure rooms/random antimagic rooms/etc.

TBH I would be fine if all non-combat cyclics could stay active in anti-magic rooms, since it seems the intent of those rooms is to stop spell casting and/or combat more often than not.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Oops, didn't mean to hit send -

>We don't work towards anything that is "interactive" in any way other than disruptive or antagonistic to others (with a slight change for Redeemed possibly). But you do bring up that because we don't have anything to work towards or the ability to RP most of us have little option than grind out ranks which just creates more of a power vacuum where people will or won't interact with us.

Yeah, but that's true of all the games guilds really.

> Out of curiosity, is there any plan to give the players a sort of 'behind the scenes everything is revealed' OOC explanation of some of the more hidden lore? One of my complaints over the years has been how some of the lore seems hidden behind either visions that not everyone is online for, or in events that not everyone is present for.

Read what happens to you when you join the guild. If you have a necromancer then the information is given directly to you. Arcane mana isn't a natural thing and very unnatural things were done to you.

Otherwise please read and try to understand before you hit send. You are confusing things and making this a bit more muddled.

> Remove the always open policy, and turn off DO.

They were trying to say these are things that would help make the guild better. From their post I can assume they meant to remove the requirement that Necromancers are "always open" (as in can't be closed). Turning off DO was another suggestion.


>We don't work towards anything that is "interactive" in any way other than disruptive or antagonistic to others (with a slight change for Redeemed possibly). But you do bring up that because we don't have anything to work towards or the ability to RP most of us have little option than grind out ranks which just creates more of a power vacuum where people will or won't interact with us.

The exponential nature of this with the necromancer guild really doesn't count the way others do. By nature we are not supposed to be able to produce or support other players in a meaningful way. Armifer has expressed that the goal is that players never have to seek one out for something. That is anti-interactive with others and the stance the guild was built on which is vastly different from other guilds who have things to benefit other players like trader shops, crafting in general, healing, raising, protecting cities, political intrigue (hey every quest character/NPC seems to knows I'm a necromancer), joining militias or orders, etc. This is not the same as other guilds trust me. I've been through them all.

>>Yeah, but that's true of all the games guilds really.

Ehhh... not really. Invasion-mobs aside (and even some of those are now becoming flex, which I think is a very good thing), there aren't situations like, "Mary the circle 10 Paladin wants to hang out and talk about local politics but she better be circle 150 or else risk death" or "Bob the circle 20 Empath wants to go to a siege night to watch people fight with figurines but better make sure he did enough defensive skill grinding in case someone decides to snipe him".

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>I'm not sure why you're indicating that Necromancers are effectively playing solo

Because they do? The vast majority of them that I know or know of anyways.

This game in general doesn't encourage a ton of interaction (hunting is mostly solo, crafting, etc etc etc). But Necros go even further and discourage 'hanging out' with other players. One accuse from someone that just wants to be a jerk.. and there goes your day.. or week.. or month.

>>Necros open/guarded for pvp

I would love for this to be changed. Not only is it a very silly OOC out (which I know people check).. but unless PvP gets balanced across guilds (which will never happen) then PvP should not be a focus of the guild. If you expect Necros to be PvP events.. then we should be inherently OP in all ways so that people HAVE to gang up on us to balance it out (think evolve.. or even LotRO where in PvP you can play monsters) and currently that is not the case.



I really enjoy the idea of the guild. I really enjoy the majority of the abilities. I just think don't think that a lot of real long term consideration was put into the design to deal with how Necros would really fit into the Realms as part of an MMO community.

If this was a single player game.. I think it would be 100% spot on and really awesome... like say if it was in Baldur's Gate or even Pillars of Eternity. It just falls short in an MMO where the point is to interact with others -- if the default reaction from others based upon lore, even if you haven't done anything wrong, is KILL KILL KILL... it limits what you can do. (and we could still have all the fun trouble making tools if someone WANTED to be the crazy bad guy.. like glass orbs, etc

I played a necromancer up to around 20th circle and got tired because its just too anti-social. One slip up and everyone and everything is out to get you. It was really bad because I was afraid to even use my better skills (mudman for example) in combat due to fear of being outed as a necromancer.

My suggestion would be to:

1. get rid of the Social outrage factors that ban you from a town (reduce to extremely nasty service and higher rates, fees, bigger legal penalties for breaking the law, etc.)

2. get rid of the always PvP open policy...put necromancers exactly on exactly the same footing as any other guild with regards to PvP and CvC combat. IE, you can do it if you want...but are never forced to interact or fight just because of your guild. Also get rid of accuse necromancer.

3. instead of open PvP and getting kicked out of town, have social outrage impart an increasing magic and/or survival penalty (that increases faster with higher outrage) and that goes away as you spend time away from justice areas (due to increasing paranoia).

For an IC explanation for the change have the grand duke Soandso's wife get sick with some magic curse that only a necromancer can break, and as payment for the services the grand duke has allowed students of philosophy to keep their filthy lives as long as they obey the laws of the province and keep their filthy practices out of sight. (so spell casting in town could still get you arrested)

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Personally for me, the hardest thing to deal with as a necromancer was not being able to use my spells openly in combat. After getting caught with a mudman and getting beat up even though IC mudmen don't identify their owners...but OOC if you are the only one there its pretty much yours...I think necromancy would be much more fun if you could BE a necromancer in combat without having it impact you because some random dude saw you casting a clearly necromantic spell.

>>I think a large reason for this is that we have no necromancers of prominence other than Perverse.

we do though. Marstan was an extremely good example of a necromancer that used his toolset for good. Though you have to go back to the 90s for information on him lol. His plotline was awesome. He is along the lines of how I see necromancers.

> Marstan was an extremely good example of a necromancer that used his toolset for good. Though you have to go back to the 90s for information on him

I thought the guild was released in the last 5 years. Going 20 years back seems odd to me, especially since none of the current staff were GMs at that point (Ok, a few might have been).

>>I thought the guild was released in the last 5 years. Going 20 years back seems odd to me, especially since none of the current staff were GMs at that point (Ok, a few might have been).

Necromancer lore in the game overall has been around a lot longer than the guild.

Marstan was a big part of the Sorrow War. And he was on the 'good' side. (well... okay he fluctuated a bit lol -- loved how he came to be known originally for targeting the PvPers in the graveyard out the NE gate of crossings for invasions).. but in the end he was a good guy.

In a lot of ways the Sorrow War was a battle between Paths of Necromancy.

It also made a lot more sense than the current system does.. because most historical necromancers were other guilds prior to utilizing necromancy spells and going a different road for various reasons.

https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Marstan

Check out the entry on him. I loooved that event. The Sorrow War(especially the events surrounding Marstan since I participated a lot with that) and the Gorbesh war still bring back amazing memories.


>>There's also no amount of retcon that can properly serve those who feel like the pariah status should disappear, there has been years of roleplayed animosity between Necromancers and the rest of society. Nothing coming out of the sky and enabling the Necromancers to be accepted by Immortals and impervious to demonic influence is going to make them trustworthy. Hell, you have two races that under no circumstances should have to accept being kind to a Necromancer, and that's been well established long before the Guild was released and was probably part of the reason the Guild must be Guarded or Open.

I disagree. Even on the BtB quest the people still fighting the effects of Lyras are okay with Necromancers helping them. It wouldn't take that much to retcon it. Things change in an MMO. If they set up a plot and allowed for Book to seriously save the day.. the powers that be could grant a stay on necromancers hounding unless they begin harassing cities or blatantly breaking the law. It wouldn't be that hard to imagine or accept.