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>>I disagree. Even on the BtB quest the people still fighting the effects of Lyras are okay with Necromancers helping them.
I would not use pay quests an example of how we define roleplay amongst groups. Anti-Necromancer conflict is barred from pay quests where players have all fairly paid an admission fee for a good chance at high end loot.
Simply put, I don't believe any retcon as an attempt to make Necromancers an accepted part of society on a long term basis is going to be met with the end result you expect or desire.
>>Simply put, I don't believe any retcon as an attempt to make Necromancers an accepted part of society on a long term basis is going to be met with the end result you expect or desire.
So, without spoiling too much (because I would like to use it), the end result of the Necromancer sitch as I originally envisioned it included a much different appearing Necromancer Guild ICly than what exists now. Just, for example, think about what various Necromancer NPCs might do if Transcendence is proved real and attainable, what public opinion might look like if a roadmap to living immortality is formulated, and what the Immortals themselves might be forced to do in that situation.
I'm being intentionally vague and slightly misleading to preserve the plot, but the spirit that 'things would not be what they look like now' is what I'm going after.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
So, without spoiling too much (because I would like to use it), the end result of the Necromancer sitch as I originally envisioned it included a much different appearing Necromancer Guild ICly than what exists now. Just, for example, think about what various Necromancer NPCs might do if Transcendence is proved real and attainable, what public opinion might look like if a roadmap to living immortality is formulated, and what the Immortals themselves might be forced to do in that situation.
I'm being intentionally vague and slightly misleading to preserve the plot, but the spirit that 'things would not be what they look like now' is what I'm going after.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
>>So, without spoiling too much (because I would like to use it), the end result of the Necromancer sitch as I originally envisioned it included a much different appearing Necromancer Guild ICly than what exists now. Just, for example, think about what various Necromancer NPCs might do if Transcendence is proved real and attainable, what public opinion might look like if a roadmap to living immortality is formulated, and what the Immortals themselves might be forced to do in that situation.
Knowing the state of transcendence was a planned event release, all of the above is pretty much what I've been expecting at some point. But when you consider that, as mentioned, the Immortals will have a response(that will mostly not be good), and that PCs will be forced to deal with people who have committed numerous horrors that are now immortal(keeping in mind that a man's who fallen low to "make the world a better place" is not likely making a better place), I think you'll find that things will mostly remain the same. You will still have people who have been vocally supporting Necromancers the entire time, you'll have people who violently oppose them, and you'll have Necromancers still going perverse because Demons are metal as hell.
Just my opinion. I do hope that one day you'll be able to draw the current storyline to its 'conclusion', I just don't think players should expect much on the "becoming accepted" spectrum.
Knowing the state of transcendence was a planned event release, all of the above is pretty much what I've been expecting at some point. But when you consider that, as mentioned, the Immortals will have a response(that will mostly not be good), and that PCs will be forced to deal with people who have committed numerous horrors that are now immortal(keeping in mind that a man's who fallen low to "make the world a better place" is not likely making a better place), I think you'll find that things will mostly remain the same. You will still have people who have been vocally supporting Necromancers the entire time, you'll have people who violently oppose them, and you'll have Necromancers still going perverse because Demons are metal as hell.
Just my opinion. I do hope that one day you'll be able to draw the current storyline to its 'conclusion', I just don't think players should expect much on the "becoming accepted" spectrum.
>Because they do? The vast majority of them that I know or know of anyways.
While not hunting I often train my non-combat stuff in a room with other people. There are plenty of places in game to do this. Additionally, just because you cannot spend hours braiding vines in front of the Warmie guild does not mean you cannot be social. Furthermore, being successfully accused hardly ruins anything - it just enforces time spent time away from justice zones. As it is, my Necromancer plays very similarly to my Barbarian - both spend the majority of their time in combat, and their remaining time training a smaller subset of skills wherever convenient, which often means a gathering spot.
>Even on the BtB quest the people still fighting the effects of Lyras are okay with Necromancers helping them.
Necromancers participated in the killing of Lyras.
>So, without spoiling too much (because I would like to use it), the end result of the Necromancer sitch as I originally envisioned it included a much different appearing Necromancer Guild ICly than what exists now. Just, for example, think about what various Necromancer NPCs might do if Transcendence is proved real and attainable, what public opinion might look like if a roadmap to living immortality is formulated, and what the Immortals themselves might be forced to do in that situation.
I imagine something like how Sorcerers are treated in GS, minus the call for their 'Bone Shield' equivalents on the Merchant gweth-equivalent?
While not hunting I often train my non-combat stuff in a room with other people. There are plenty of places in game to do this. Additionally, just because you cannot spend hours braiding vines in front of the Warmie guild does not mean you cannot be social. Furthermore, being successfully accused hardly ruins anything - it just enforces time spent time away from justice zones. As it is, my Necromancer plays very similarly to my Barbarian - both spend the majority of their time in combat, and their remaining time training a smaller subset of skills wherever convenient, which often means a gathering spot.
>Even on the BtB quest the people still fighting the effects of Lyras are okay with Necromancers helping them.
Necromancers participated in the killing of Lyras.
>So, without spoiling too much (because I would like to use it), the end result of the Necromancer sitch as I originally envisioned it included a much different appearing Necromancer Guild ICly than what exists now. Just, for example, think about what various Necromancer NPCs might do if Transcendence is proved real and attainable, what public opinion might look like if a roadmap to living immortality is formulated, and what the Immortals themselves might be forced to do in that situation.
I imagine something like how Sorcerers are treated in GS, minus the call for their 'Bone Shield' equivalents on the Merchant gweth-equivalent?
Another aspect that got dropped due to time is that the fervent persecution of the Necromancers was meant to take a fairly early step down when Rutilor would smite the Hounds of Rutilor for acts of grave injustice and, broadly, crimes against humanity in his name (protip: in a world where the gods are verifiably real, do not burn villages and kill children in the name of the Light Aspect of Justice).
The whole situation evolved, and I use that exact example because it's no longer relevant / going to happen, but the intention all along was that the whole conflict/dynamic would evolve and become Something Else rather thasn get stuck at Lyras-level persecution.
But that required Plot, and Plot required my personal Effort, and etc etc didn't work out.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
The whole situation evolved, and I use that exact example because it's no longer relevant / going to happen, but the intention all along was that the whole conflict/dynamic would evolve and become Something Else rather thasn get stuck at Lyras-level persecution.
But that required Plot, and Plot required my personal Effort, and etc etc didn't work out.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
> So, without spoiling too much (because I would like to use it), the end result of the Necromancer sitch as I originally envisioned it included a much different appearing Necromancer Guild ICly than what exists now. Just, for example, think about what various Necromancer NPCs might do if Transcendence is proved real and attainable, what public opinion might look like if a roadmap to living immortality is formulated, and what the Immortals themselves might be forced to do in that situation.
> I'm being intentionally vague and slightly misleading to preserve the plot, but the spirit that 'things would not be what they look like now' is what I'm going after.
Sorry for all of the posts, but there's a lot here. Do you realistically see this happening this year? Or are we looking at a 5 year roadmap?
Well. I obviously have a lot invested in the topic. I'm relatively fresh to actually playing a Necromancer as a main character, having only had my current character for a year and change. But as most of you keeping up know I've tried a LOT to become a mover and shaker in that time, and I think I've done a decent job, so I hope that makes my perspective on how that has gone for me valuable.
There is a lot about the Necromancers I like. I like the persecution angles. I like that there is room for friction, drama, and conflict, and ample fuel to make those things happen and make them interesting. I like that there are subterfuge angles, such that they are possible with the kind of community that we have. I like the general atmosphere of creeping paranoia that the guild promotes. I love the fiction.
These are all things I don't want to see just go away. They are also things I think could be done better in places. I don't think this requires a retcon or throwing away every piece of fiction around Necromancers; quite the opposite. I don't think it means axing ACCUSE entirely, or totally removing Social Outrage, or gutting every narrative structure of dread and fear around Necromancers. I do think some things need to budge a little and the narrative and accompanying mechanics needs to evolve and continue forward instead of remain stagnant so there can be space for Necromancers to be invested, contributing members of the community. And I genuinely think that all those things I listed as liking can be preserved in some form while also doing those things. The fact that this was apparently already a planned part of the natural progression of the guild does make some sense, and makes me hopeful that maybe some kind of plan could be enacted to actually make that happen. Because we are stagnant right now and I don't think that is fun for either side, frankly.
It should be possible to play a Necromancer as your main character and not be bored all the time or have your only avenues for engagement with the broader community be things that revolve around either disruption, PvP, or both. As someone said, this is not some kind of "hard mode," it's isolating; it's not a fresh and challenging iteration on gameplay, it's simply boring and frustrating unless you spend most of your time running .hunt. And it is not possible to understand just how isolating that is until you actually do play one as your main character and attempt to find social interaction. "Just fire up your alt if you want to hang out with people" is not good advice, it's a sign of a broken system.
So how to make that transition? I think there are a number of ways to make that work within the lore as presented. I have even had my PC spitball some stuff at meetings about it. But either way I think most players who main a Necromancer feel the current situation isn't tenable, and to see any change and motion forward in the narrative, which has felt stuck for a long time, would be welcome.
(An aside, DO and SO are separate things. It is confusing when people come in and mix them up, or don't seem to understand what they are on a basic level. If you're going to discuss this or offer suggestions to/about Necromancers, can you at least get our basic terminology right?)
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
There is a lot about the Necromancers I like. I like the persecution angles. I like that there is room for friction, drama, and conflict, and ample fuel to make those things happen and make them interesting. I like that there are subterfuge angles, such that they are possible with the kind of community that we have. I like the general atmosphere of creeping paranoia that the guild promotes. I love the fiction.
These are all things I don't want to see just go away. They are also things I think could be done better in places. I don't think this requires a retcon or throwing away every piece of fiction around Necromancers; quite the opposite. I don't think it means axing ACCUSE entirely, or totally removing Social Outrage, or gutting every narrative structure of dread and fear around Necromancers. I do think some things need to budge a little and the narrative and accompanying mechanics needs to evolve and continue forward instead of remain stagnant so there can be space for Necromancers to be invested, contributing members of the community. And I genuinely think that all those things I listed as liking can be preserved in some form while also doing those things. The fact that this was apparently already a planned part of the natural progression of the guild does make some sense, and makes me hopeful that maybe some kind of plan could be enacted to actually make that happen. Because we are stagnant right now and I don't think that is fun for either side, frankly.
It should be possible to play a Necromancer as your main character and not be bored all the time or have your only avenues for engagement with the broader community be things that revolve around either disruption, PvP, or both. As someone said, this is not some kind of "hard mode," it's isolating; it's not a fresh and challenging iteration on gameplay, it's simply boring and frustrating unless you spend most of your time running .hunt. And it is not possible to understand just how isolating that is until you actually do play one as your main character and attempt to find social interaction. "Just fire up your alt if you want to hang out with people" is not good advice, it's a sign of a broken system.
So how to make that transition? I think there are a number of ways to make that work within the lore as presented. I have even had my PC spitball some stuff at meetings about it. But either way I think most players who main a Necromancer feel the current situation isn't tenable, and to see any change and motion forward in the narrative, which has felt stuck for a long time, would be welcome.
(An aside, DO and SO are separate things. It is confusing when people come in and mix them up, or don't seem to understand what they are on a basic level. If you're going to discuss this or offer suggestions to/about Necromancers, can you at least get our basic terminology right?)
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
>>Sorry for all of the posts, but there's a lot here. Do you realistically see this happening this year? Or are we looking at a 5 year roadmap?
I think you missed the prior posts where he apologized for not really having time to achieve the original roadmap and now there's the current limbo.
>>Another aspect that got dropped due to time is that the fervent persecution of the Necromancers was meant to take a fairly early step down when Rutilor would smite the Hounds of Rutilor for acts of grave injustice and, broadly, crimes against humanity in his name (protip: in a world where the gods are verifiably real, do not burn villages and kill children in the name of the Light Aspect of Justice).
This would have been interesting, I always wondered if they'd have some inner Temple conflict due to what they've been doing.
>> "Just fire up your alt if you want to hang out with people" is not good advice, it's a sign of a broken system.
I can appreciate how invested people are in the Guild, and the work you've done to make it a interactive place. I think if you view the status of Necromancers as broken due to the lack of open interaction with the game at large, that's actually a sign of something else.
I've found this type of thing occurs whenever someone, in any online game, sets themselves up as the villain. (I don't want to muddy the point here, but regardless of anything, society in DragonRealms views Necromancers as villains. They are, for all intents and purposes, the PC Villains of the game.) They find that they are now persona non grata, they cannot attend as many events, they cannot participate in a lot of the stories, they cannot go the festival that everyone else has been waiting the rest of the year for, etc etc, because they have willingly set themselves apart by choosing that role. Boredom sets in, but what can they do?
I find villainous PCs cannot be maintained as main characters. You WILL get bored. They fill a niche and they can be great fun, but not everyday. Saying "try an alt" is fair advice in the face of this, if you disagree that's fine, but I have to ask, what was your expectation when you rolled up a Necromancer in DragonRealms considering the inherent roleplay?
Not asking that as a jab, but I'm curious because that might be part of the underlying problem.
I think you missed the prior posts where he apologized for not really having time to achieve the original roadmap and now there's the current limbo.
>>Another aspect that got dropped due to time is that the fervent persecution of the Necromancers was meant to take a fairly early step down when Rutilor would smite the Hounds of Rutilor for acts of grave injustice and, broadly, crimes against humanity in his name (protip: in a world where the gods are verifiably real, do not burn villages and kill children in the name of the Light Aspect of Justice).
This would have been interesting, I always wondered if they'd have some inner Temple conflict due to what they've been doing.
>> "Just fire up your alt if you want to hang out with people" is not good advice, it's a sign of a broken system.
I can appreciate how invested people are in the Guild, and the work you've done to make it a interactive place. I think if you view the status of Necromancers as broken due to the lack of open interaction with the game at large, that's actually a sign of something else.
I've found this type of thing occurs whenever someone, in any online game, sets themselves up as the villain. (I don't want to muddy the point here, but regardless of anything, society in DragonRealms views Necromancers as villains. They are, for all intents and purposes, the PC Villains of the game.) They find that they are now persona non grata, they cannot attend as many events, they cannot participate in a lot of the stories, they cannot go the festival that everyone else has been waiting the rest of the year for, etc etc, because they have willingly set themselves apart by choosing that role. Boredom sets in, but what can they do?
I find villainous PCs cannot be maintained as main characters. You WILL get bored. They fill a niche and they can be great fun, but not everyday. Saying "try an alt" is fair advice in the face of this, if you disagree that's fine, but I have to ask, what was your expectation when you rolled up a Necromancer in DragonRealms considering the inherent roleplay?
Not asking that as a jab, but I'm curious because that might be part of the underlying problem.
I honestly understand real life taking over a situation, and I would be willing to guess most of us do. That being said my only concern would be moving forward. We have all known the guild has been in a sort of stasis for a long while, but if there was a solid plan (or heck, at this point a semi permeable plan) going forward I believe it would do a lot of good. Not to say any of us should know what said plan is but knowing that there are things on the table for us would make a large difference.
"If I take death into my life, acknowledge it, and face it squarely, I will free myself from the anxiety of death and the pettiness of life - and only then will I be free to become myself." ~ Martin Heidegger
"If I take death into my life, acknowledge it, and face it squarely, I will free myself from the anxiety of death and the pettiness of life - and only then will I be free to become myself." ~ Martin Heidegger
We're saying the setup from the word go was bad. That the present state of things is not conducive to diverse, compelling roleplay and investment in the greater community on the part of people playing Necromancers. And that this should change.
You are radiating certainty in your own cleverness at spotting the very issue the thread was created to discuss, but smugly sitting back and going "heh well what did you expect" is not actually constructive in the context of this thread.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
You are radiating certainty in your own cleverness at spotting the very issue the thread was created to discuss, but smugly sitting back and going "heh well what did you expect" is not actually constructive in the context of this thread.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
> HASTALUEGO posts
Thank you for your input but as you mention you don't play a Necromancer so most of your thoughts can only be taken with a grain of salt. You have not experienced any of what we have been talking about and therefor don't know the difference between signing up for a guild that is fundamentally broken in a half released version that doesn't work with other guilds. I signed up knowing I was going to be on the outskirts and that was fine with me but the complete lack of ability to interact or play with others was not part of what we signed up with because theoretically it was not part of the package. We had faith that the guild would be completed at least enough to make it functional and that hasn't happened.
I'm always willing to listen to ideas and normally wouldn't write out ideas but when this thread is aimed at people who play Necromancers as mains to discuss their experiences outside guesses as to what the experience is just muddles the conversation.
Thank you for your input but as you mention you don't play a Necromancer so most of your thoughts can only be taken with a grain of salt. You have not experienced any of what we have been talking about and therefor don't know the difference between signing up for a guild that is fundamentally broken in a half released version that doesn't work with other guilds. I signed up knowing I was going to be on the outskirts and that was fine with me but the complete lack of ability to interact or play with others was not part of what we signed up with because theoretically it was not part of the package. We had faith that the guild would be completed at least enough to make it functional and that hasn't happened.
I'm always willing to listen to ideas and normally wouldn't write out ideas but when this thread is aimed at people who play Necromancers as mains to discuss their experiences outside guesses as to what the experience is just muddles the conversation.
>>You are radiating certainty in your own cleverness at spotting the very issue the thread was created to discuss, but smugly sitting back and going "heh well what did you expect" is not actually constructive in the context of this thread.
I apologize if this is the way I am coming off, that's not my intent. When I ask what did you expect upon making the character, I am asking what your personal view of this evolution of villain is? I've never seen this "solved" in a MUD before, so I am curious as to where you, as the player, sees it going to be more functional for you and the other players.
I apologize if this is the way I am coming off, that's not my intent. When I ask what did you expect upon making the character, I am asking what your personal view of this evolution of villain is? I've never seen this "solved" in a MUD before, so I am curious as to where you, as the player, sees it going to be more functional for you and the other players.
> I think you missed the prior posts where he apologized for not really having time to achieve the original roadmap and now there's the current limbo.
I didn't miss it, but I am a bit confused by it. One post (6598, see below) implies that there will be some development. Another post(#6601, see below) makes it unclear if that will happen "soon" (assuming ever). I ask because I'm trying to figure out if I should dust off my necro. I like the concept of the guild, but I'm not interested in playing it (I can't, others can) in its current state. I think it's a fair question to ask. GMs do a hell of a lot, and I recognize that; however, I don't want to make decisions as a paying customer based on vague ideas. This is especially true as there are a lot of big projects up in the air. I can put up with a difficult playstyle now (or even just re-level a commoner), but I don't want to bother if we're looking at a timeline equivalent of the first release of the necro guild.
Generally speaking: I think some mechanical changes should come out without a long, multi-stage event level retcon. They're too important to the game. If necessary, write a quick vision or two, make it a board post, or have a GM man an NPC for a night. Examples: Trader magic, magic 3.2, barrier changes, bard abilities, paladin abilities, and (yes) necro viability / play-ability in an MMO.
Armifer, post #6598
>> So, without spoiling too much (because I would like to use it), the end result of the Necromancer sitch as I originally envisioned it included a much different appearing Necromancer Guild ICly than what exists now. Just, for example, think about what various Necromancer NPCs might do if Transcendence is proved real and attainable, what public opinion might look like if a roadmap to living immortality is formulated, and what the Immortals themselves might be forced to do in that situation.
>> I'm being intentionally vague and slightly misleading to preserve the plot, but the spirit that 'things would not be what they look like now' is what I'm going after.
vs.
Armifer, post #6601
>> The whole situation evolved, and I use that exact example because it's no longer relevant / going to happen, but the intention all along was that the whole conflict/dynamic would evolve and become Something Else rather thasn get stuck at Lyras-level persecution.
>> But that required Plot, and Plot required my personal Effort, and etc etc didn't work out.
I didn't miss it, but I am a bit confused by it. One post (6598, see below) implies that there will be some development. Another post(#6601, see below) makes it unclear if that will happen "soon" (assuming ever). I ask because I'm trying to figure out if I should dust off my necro. I like the concept of the guild, but I'm not interested in playing it (I can't, others can) in its current state. I think it's a fair question to ask. GMs do a hell of a lot, and I recognize that; however, I don't want to make decisions as a paying customer based on vague ideas. This is especially true as there are a lot of big projects up in the air. I can put up with a difficult playstyle now (or even just re-level a commoner), but I don't want to bother if we're looking at a timeline equivalent of the first release of the necro guild.
Generally speaking: I think some mechanical changes should come out without a long, multi-stage event level retcon. They're too important to the game. If necessary, write a quick vision or two, make it a board post, or have a GM man an NPC for a night. Examples: Trader magic, magic 3.2, barrier changes, bard abilities, paladin abilities, and (yes) necro viability / play-ability in an MMO.
Armifer, post #6598
>> So, without spoiling too much (because I would like to use it), the end result of the Necromancer sitch as I originally envisioned it included a much different appearing Necromancer Guild ICly than what exists now. Just, for example, think about what various Necromancer NPCs might do if Transcendence is proved real and attainable, what public opinion might look like if a roadmap to living immortality is formulated, and what the Immortals themselves might be forced to do in that situation.
>> I'm being intentionally vague and slightly misleading to preserve the plot, but the spirit that 'things would not be what they look like now' is what I'm going after.
vs.
Armifer, post #6601
>> The whole situation evolved, and I use that exact example because it's no longer relevant / going to happen, but the intention all along was that the whole conflict/dynamic would evolve and become Something Else rather thasn get stuck at Lyras-level persecution.
>> But that required Plot, and Plot required my personal Effort, and etc etc didn't work out.
> As a genuine question, how do people view redeemed, perverse, or whatever transcendence shapes up to as changing the way they socialize?
I will gladly respond to this once we have a clue to whatever they are and how they will function. Right now it is all just guesses which isn't something Necromancers should be basing anything on anymore given the track record.
I will gladly respond to this once we have a clue to whatever they are and how they will function. Right now it is all just guesses which isn't something Necromancers should be basing anything on anymore given the track record.
>>Saying "try an alt" is fair advice in the face of this, if you disagree that's fine, but I have to ask, what was your expectation when you rolled up a Necromancer in DragonRealms considering the inherent roleplay?
Basically a deal was being struck: weather you personally knew it or not.
Players were told that necromancers will generally be disconnected from society and be on their own, and GMs would provide the infrastructure for them to "research" their own Great Work. That is the RP opportunity that was essentially promised. "You won't be able to really hang out in the town green and socialize, but you will be given access to something else that we hope is equally awesome."
I don't fault any GMs for this in particular, but the latter half has been stuttering and/or unable to develop for a few years now. In light of this, it does seem a bit unfair that players have to keep holding their side of the bargain.
Going by Armifer's own example, the Hounds should not be as they are at this point, because it turns out paranoia-driven genocide is unattractive to a light aspect of justice. There was meant to be stuff going on that would have logically reduced that level of aggression (what that means mechanically/ICly remains to be seen), but it never came to pass. So do Necro players wait longer for something to come to pass or does something else realign to deliver the other half of the deal sooner, or what?
Once again, I think the RP plot stuff for Necros have been amazing and I love all the GMNPCs I've come across. But I also recognize that those meetings are very few throughout the year (at least in Plat, but I feel it isn't notably different in Prime, at least from my experiences playing a Necro there, too).
TL;DR: you can't tell people to avoid main storylines with the promise of their own side story that will be the "thing" they get to do, then when the side thing never takes place let them know they should just play an alt for roleplay in a roleplay game.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Basically a deal was being struck: weather you personally knew it or not.
Players were told that necromancers will generally be disconnected from society and be on their own, and GMs would provide the infrastructure for them to "research" their own Great Work. That is the RP opportunity that was essentially promised. "You won't be able to really hang out in the town green and socialize, but you will be given access to something else that we hope is equally awesome."
I don't fault any GMs for this in particular, but the latter half has been stuttering and/or unable to develop for a few years now. In light of this, it does seem a bit unfair that players have to keep holding their side of the bargain.
Going by Armifer's own example, the Hounds should not be as they are at this point, because it turns out paranoia-driven genocide is unattractive to a light aspect of justice. There was meant to be stuff going on that would have logically reduced that level of aggression (what that means mechanically/ICly remains to be seen), but it never came to pass. So do Necro players wait longer for something to come to pass or does something else realign to deliver the other half of the deal sooner, or what?
Once again, I think the RP plot stuff for Necros have been amazing and I love all the GMNPCs I've come across. But I also recognize that those meetings are very few throughout the year (at least in Plat, but I feel it isn't notably different in Prime, at least from my experiences playing a Necro there, too).
TL;DR: you can't tell people to avoid main storylines with the promise of their own side story that will be the "thing" they get to do, then when the side thing never takes place let them know they should just play an alt for roleplay in a roleplay game.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>There was meant to be stuff going on that would have logically reduced that level of aggression (what that means mechanically/ICly remains to be seen), but it never came to pass. So do Necro players wait longer for something to come to pass or does something else realign to deliver the other half of the deal sooner, or what?
For the immediate future I'm contemplating another tweak to ACCUSE that would tone stuff down a bit without removing the persecution aspect entirely. Shifting the focus from an innate "being a Necromancer is toxic sludge" and more "playing with the toxic sludge in town is bad." This may just be handwaved in for sake of brevity if I do it, rather than build a great plot arc where the Hounds get their comeuppance.
For the bigger project, I donno. Part of me wants to try to get the Transcendence arc and all its baggage back on track, part of me wonders if I have the skill and drive to actually do it.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
For the immediate future I'm contemplating another tweak to ACCUSE that would tone stuff down a bit without removing the persecution aspect entirely. Shifting the focus from an innate "being a Necromancer is toxic sludge" and more "playing with the toxic sludge in town is bad." This may just be handwaved in for sake of brevity if I do it, rather than build a great plot arc where the Hounds get their comeuppance.
For the bigger project, I donno. Part of me wants to try to get the Transcendence arc and all its baggage back on track, part of me wonders if I have the skill and drive to actually do it.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
> For the bigger project, I donno. Part of me wants to try to get the Transcendence arc and all its baggage back on track, part of me wonders if I have the skill and drive to actually do it.
What does that mean? Are we talking about a shorter, _here's a cool mechanic and policy you can play with_ type of situation or are we talking about a _this may never happen unless we can give it a ton of fan fare (likely never)_ type of situation?
And what does this mean for the guild direction as a whole? Will it stay in it's current situation for the forseeable future, or is there a plan for the horizon where a guilded necromancer can use their abilities without the world coming down on them? Back to my earlier question, assuming it's an option, are we talking about weeks, months, years?
>For the bigger project, I donno. Part of me wants to try to get the Transcendence arc and all its baggage back on track, part of me wonders if I have the skill and drive to actually do it.
Brutal honesty? Mechanics drive the game. If you can get the mechanics out, a simple handwave of 'this is hush hush' and story it in when you can.
If that never happens, it stinks, BUT necromancer players don't get sidelined indefinitely while a GM tries to do the massive scope justice.
Far less than ideal, but it is what it is.
Brutal honesty? Mechanics drive the game. If you can get the mechanics out, a simple handwave of 'this is hush hush' and story it in when you can.
If that never happens, it stinks, BUT necromancer players don't get sidelined indefinitely while a GM tries to do the massive scope justice.
Far less than ideal, but it is what it is.
>For the bigger project, I donno. Part of me wants to try to get the Transcendence arc and all its baggage back on track, part of me wonders if I have the skill and drive to actually do it.
Honest question, but is there any means to bring the the player base on driving this story, so it doesn't entirely on you? I'm sure that's an enormous bag of worms in and of itself, but sometimes I feel like the plot lines end up being particularly slow to move in part because they only seem to move when GMs have the time to be able to.
>>For the bigger project, I donno. Part of me wants to try to get the Transcendence arc and all its baggage back on track, part of me wonders if I have the skill and drive to actually do it.<<
From my POV as an outsider, Transcendence itself would not make much of a difference but a retcon or development that gave some cover for tolerating necromancers in the rest of society definitely would. Necros are too explicitly reviled. You did a good enough job of setting that up that now there's no way to include an outed necromancers in much of anything without becoming a social outcast. Sijan and others are right that eventually there's no way for necros to participate that isn't conflict or disruption.
Unfortunately, the drama that comes from that dynamic doesn't entertain non-Necromancers over the long term. Repeated exposure has lessened its impact. A necromancer's player is acting out their part for the first time but the players around them have watched it play out over and over for five years. The lore is well written and compelling. I like the Necro story. It would be a great solo experience. It just doesn't work in a multiplayer game.
So IMO, whether through Transcendence or not, it would be best to walk back the social ostracism to Thief levels and let Necros participate in society.
Mazrian
From my POV as an outsider, Transcendence itself would not make much of a difference but a retcon or development that gave some cover for tolerating necromancers in the rest of society definitely would. Necros are too explicitly reviled. You did a good enough job of setting that up that now there's no way to include an outed necromancers in much of anything without becoming a social outcast. Sijan and others are right that eventually there's no way for necros to participate that isn't conflict or disruption.
Unfortunately, the drama that comes from that dynamic doesn't entertain non-Necromancers over the long term. Repeated exposure has lessened its impact. A necromancer's player is acting out their part for the first time but the players around them have watched it play out over and over for five years. The lore is well written and compelling. I like the Necro story. It would be a great solo experience. It just doesn't work in a multiplayer game.
So IMO, whether through Transcendence or not, it would be best to walk back the social ostracism to Thief levels and let Necros participate in society.
Mazrian
Necromancers are meant to be antagonists, not villains. This point gets hammered into your face as a Necromancer -- a lot -- but non-necromancers never get so much as a gentle reminder. I liked the necromancer guild, but the rest of the game has little mechanical support for the kind of subtle antagonism the guild is set up for internally. You end up punished by the playerbase for being a necromancer and if you actually engage them back, you get punished by the necromancer guild for not being a necromancer.
TL;DR the problem isn't necromancers (or at least none of those problems are unique) its the rest of the game.
As a main non-necromancer I've found interacting with necromancers is more boring than being one.
I gave up bothering with anything related to necromancers on my main character four years ago. I could endlessly repeat the same enriching "No, you" conversations. I could go find a guard and accuse, but most of the time the necromancers are doing their job and not in justice to begin with. I could join the inquisition, but the temple lost their only weapon against the profane aegis in-game decades ago and the inquisition is factually unable to accomplish anything a necromancer can't just stand up from.
How do the Hounds tell if someone is a necromancer? The necromancer is the only person who survives!
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
TL;DR the problem isn't necromancers (or at least none of those problems are unique) its the rest of the game.
As a main non-necromancer I've found interacting with necromancers is more boring than being one.
I gave up bothering with anything related to necromancers on my main character four years ago. I could endlessly repeat the same enriching "No, you" conversations. I could go find a guard and accuse, but most of the time the necromancers are doing their job and not in justice to begin with. I could join the inquisition, but the temple lost their only weapon against the profane aegis in-game decades ago and the inquisition is factually unable to accomplish anything a necromancer can't just stand up from.
How do the Hounds tell if someone is a necromancer? The necromancer is the only person who survives!
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
I don't main a necromancer. I also don't love posting on the forums, but thought that this one was worth it. More recently in game, my character has had some interactions with Thayet's necro. The character interactions have been great and I really enjoy interacting with her, even the not-so-subtle jabs as my character is trying to feel out whether there is any truth to the rumors and outcome of the trial.
But things kind of come to a head as they always do with necromancers. As a character in the DR world, I don't know how I can justify a non-necromancer being social with a necromancer with the lore as it exists. If my character knows, all of the lore tells me that my character is disgusted and petrified and will never, ever, interact with Thayet's character ever again.
Hastaluego said:
>>you are also offered different opportunities. As a Necromancer, you are afforded the opportunity to be the spotlight antagonist in a variety of situations of your own creation. These are not common occasions, but they do exist and enrich the game. I think that, regardless of any flaws, the recent White Rose Trial demonstrates this.
But the result was that now that character is outted. That character is now Big Bad and any RP with her is with the knowledge that she is a necromancer.
Julian said:
>>So IMO, whether through Transcendence or not, it would be best to walk back the social ostracism to Thief levels and let Necros participate in society.
I agree. I played a thief in the old days, where you didn't talk about fight club. Even thieves who were too loose with the discussion of “cookies” and “baking” got a bit of a stern talking to. In those days, known, obvious thieves were shunned, but as long as you pretended to be a nice ranger (whether everyone around you knew the truth or not), you could be in orders and participate in society. It would be nice if I could just enjoy a nice whiskey with Thayet's necro so long as she sat around and didn't start casting spells and I didn't start trying to pick her pocket.
Armifer said:
>>For the immediate future I'm contemplating another tweak to ACCUSE that would tone stuff down a bit without removing the persecution aspect entirely. Shifting the focus from an innate "being a Necromancer is toxic sludge" and more "playing with the toxic sludge in town is bad." This may just be handwaved in for sake of brevity if I do it, rather than build a great plot arc where the Hounds get their comeuppance.
To some extent, mechanically, this is good, but there does definitely need to be a story arc in game to react to. How would the Inquisition stop hunting down Thayet and all the other necromancers all the time, other than some sort of roleplay experience whereby the gods informed them that certain Philosophers are okay, and it's only the ones gwething about how special it is to be a necromancer that get Hounded?
And I guess that's part of my problem. Even though necromancy is the big bad, necromancers cannot participate in orders and cannot be involved in day-to-day events, no one does a damn thing when certain necromancers pull out a construct and stand on Magen Road, or gweth about how awesome it feels to be a necromancer. So that's ultimately what necromancer RP becomes. Don't socialize, just .hunt and gweth about how you're a big bad necromancer. Without the actual lore to back it up, there's nowhere else to go.
"Sometimes I have parties at my house in Nashville and it's clothing-optional, and we just body-paint each other and run around." -Ke$ha
But things kind of come to a head as they always do with necromancers. As a character in the DR world, I don't know how I can justify a non-necromancer being social with a necromancer with the lore as it exists. If my character knows, all of the lore tells me that my character is disgusted and petrified and will never, ever, interact with Thayet's character ever again.
Hastaluego said:
>>you are also offered different opportunities. As a Necromancer, you are afforded the opportunity to be the spotlight antagonist in a variety of situations of your own creation. These are not common occasions, but they do exist and enrich the game. I think that, regardless of any flaws, the recent White Rose Trial demonstrates this.
But the result was that now that character is outted. That character is now Big Bad and any RP with her is with the knowledge that she is a necromancer.
Julian said:
>>So IMO, whether through Transcendence or not, it would be best to walk back the social ostracism to Thief levels and let Necros participate in society.
I agree. I played a thief in the old days, where you didn't talk about fight club. Even thieves who were too loose with the discussion of “cookies” and “baking” got a bit of a stern talking to. In those days, known, obvious thieves were shunned, but as long as you pretended to be a nice ranger (whether everyone around you knew the truth or not), you could be in orders and participate in society. It would be nice if I could just enjoy a nice whiskey with Thayet's necro so long as she sat around and didn't start casting spells and I didn't start trying to pick her pocket.
Armifer said:
>>For the immediate future I'm contemplating another tweak to ACCUSE that would tone stuff down a bit without removing the persecution aspect entirely. Shifting the focus from an innate "being a Necromancer is toxic sludge" and more "playing with the toxic sludge in town is bad." This may just be handwaved in for sake of brevity if I do it, rather than build a great plot arc where the Hounds get their comeuppance.
To some extent, mechanically, this is good, but there does definitely need to be a story arc in game to react to. How would the Inquisition stop hunting down Thayet and all the other necromancers all the time, other than some sort of roleplay experience whereby the gods informed them that certain Philosophers are okay, and it's only the ones gwething about how special it is to be a necromancer that get Hounded?
And I guess that's part of my problem. Even though necromancy is the big bad, necromancers cannot participate in orders and cannot be involved in day-to-day events, no one does a damn thing when certain necromancers pull out a construct and stand on Magen Road, or gweth about how awesome it feels to be a necromancer. So that's ultimately what necromancer RP becomes. Don't socialize, just .hunt and gweth about how you're a big bad necromancer. Without the actual lore to back it up, there's nowhere else to go.
"Sometimes I have parties at my house in Nashville and it's clothing-optional, and we just body-paint each other and run around." -Ke$ha
>>As a character in the DR world, I don't know how I can justify a non-necromancer being social with a necromancer with the lore as it exists. If my character knows, all of the lore tells me that my character is disgusted and petrified and will never, ever, interact with Thayet's character ever again.
I chalk it up to a system limitation, but the fact that you can look at a room and see X there, no matter how well X is obscured, covered, etc also contributes to this.
Yes, you might know that X is a Necro and thus should be avoided and shunned, but what if you came across someone wearing a mask at a ball? Does your character know that's X, or do you as a player see DR indicating that X is X?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I chalk it up to a system limitation, but the fact that you can look at a room and see X there, no matter how well X is obscured, covered, etc also contributes to this.
Yes, you might know that X is a Necro and thus should be avoided and shunned, but what if you came across someone wearing a mask at a ball? Does your character know that's X, or do you as a player see DR indicating that X is X?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Armifer..
The transcendence path you are describing sounds amazing. I have to say i want to see it out.
I am even good with waiting. (If i have the patience to never level... I can wait for this)
Is there any way to get slightly more aggressive with the time table though without straining your health?
Toss out some visions to those far more evil moon mages types? Have the people persecuting thayet be struck down for going too far? And use it to push the story a bit further?
It sounds like you could fit it in. I agree with the other poster to some degree let the players push it if their plots fit your over arching story. Less work for you ;)
Anyways.. all of what you have said does make me feel better. Thanks!
The transcendence path you are describing sounds amazing. I have to say i want to see it out.
I am even good with waiting. (If i have the patience to never level... I can wait for this)
Is there any way to get slightly more aggressive with the time table though without straining your health?
Toss out some visions to those far more evil moon mages types? Have the people persecuting thayet be struck down for going too far? And use it to push the story a bit further?
It sounds like you could fit it in. I agree with the other poster to some degree let the players push it if their plots fit your over arching story. Less work for you ;)
Anyways.. all of what you have said does make me feel better. Thanks!
>>Yes, you might know that X is a Necro and thus should be avoided and shunned, but what if you came across someone wearing a mask at a ball? Does your character know that's X, or do you as a player see DR indicating that X is X?
My character would abide by the disguise, if I knew said person was in a disguise. But again, how do I know how good the disguise is? Can my character see through the disguise? Can my character sort of see through the disguise but not be certain? Yes, this is a system limitation, and disguises were supposed to come out for thieves around 2002ish.
"Sometimes I have parties at my house in Nashville and it's clothing-optional, and we just body-paint each other and run around." -Ke$ha
My character would abide by the disguise, if I knew said person was in a disguise. But again, how do I know how good the disguise is? Can my character see through the disguise? Can my character sort of see through the disguise but not be certain? Yes, this is a system limitation, and disguises were supposed to come out for thieves around 2002ish.
"Sometimes I have parties at my house in Nashville and it's clothing-optional, and we just body-paint each other and run around." -Ke$ha
>>My character would abide by the disguise, if I knew said person was in a disguise. But again, how do I know how good the disguise is? Can my character see through the disguise? Can my character sort of see through the disguise but not be certain? Yes, this is a system limitation, and disguises were supposed to come out for thieves around 2002ish.
In this context I'm literally talking about having someone's face covered via hood/mask/etc.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
In this context I'm literally talking about having someone's face covered via hood/mask/etc.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
The implication seems to be that the Transcendence arc would be adding something to the lore to give people "wiggle room" so to speak either by backing off on the demon angles or backing off on the damnation angle or maybe both, which would render the current situation moot because there would either be new information or old information would change. Without actually knowing what path the thing would take it would be hard to say. But a Transcendent Necromancer has kind of installed themselves as some kind of god-king, so I dunno, there seems to be a lot to potentially do with that.
The political and social angle is actually pretty easy to work. There's a lot of material there, people already have plenty of reason to not be sympathetic with the Hounds of Rutilor or the Inquisition, you have what happened in Shard, etc. Both IRL and IG, churches are temporal political entities and power struggles and differences of opinion happen, scripture be damned. Necromancers have limited pull but they have some, and though their crimes are slightly more fresh in the memory, Moon Mages and Warrior Mages have done similar or worse in their histories and still exist largely by simply having better PR.
So maybe just we need to fire our PR guy.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
The political and social angle is actually pretty easy to work. There's a lot of material there, people already have plenty of reason to not be sympathetic with the Hounds of Rutilor or the Inquisition, you have what happened in Shard, etc. Both IRL and IG, churches are temporal political entities and power struggles and differences of opinion happen, scripture be damned. Necromancers have limited pull but they have some, and though their crimes are slightly more fresh in the memory, Moon Mages and Warrior Mages have done similar or worse in their histories and still exist largely by simply having better PR.
So maybe just we need to fire our PR guy.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Most of what I would have said has been covered better by others but my necromancer is my main and by far favorite character so I'll toss my thoughts in.
I love the lore overall and I've truly enjoyed the interactions I've had with my necromancer but those are far too spread out. We need something specific to do with our time that isn't training or antagonizing pvp. Those are both fun but they fall short of being a fulfilling rp package.
I've enjoyed the times I've managed to get together with other necros but feel like we need a more organic reason for it to happen than occasional scheduled meetings or the few ships passing in the night moments we get at the guild halls. I don't know what mechanics or story lines we may need to get to that but I know I feel its missing.
As far as interacting with events/fests/etc; I really think we need to revisit some ideas about name hiding/obfuscating to open up some interaction for our mains without causing other's to have to do mental gymnastics to accept our presence.
I love the lore overall and I've truly enjoyed the interactions I've had with my necromancer but those are far too spread out. We need something specific to do with our time that isn't training or antagonizing pvp. Those are both fun but they fall short of being a fulfilling rp package.
I've enjoyed the times I've managed to get together with other necros but feel like we need a more organic reason for it to happen than occasional scheduled meetings or the few ships passing in the night moments we get at the guild halls. I don't know what mechanics or story lines we may need to get to that but I know I feel its missing.
As far as interacting with events/fests/etc; I really think we need to revisit some ideas about name hiding/obfuscating to open up some interaction for our mains without causing other's to have to do mental gymnastics to accept our presence.
I want to lead my post with a bit of clarity - I've played DR on and off since 2000, and I've never played as long as I have on my Necromancer. I've also, hilariously, never RP'd as much as I have now, but that is largely an age related occurrence. And finally, I've found playing a Necromancer to be, occasionally, extremely compelling in ways my Moon Mage never was.
<How often do you interact with individuals, larger groups, or at actual events? In what way(s) in general do you find interaction or new people to play with?>
Mostly only at Necronight; until then I was hiding out in the Islands.
<What avenues do you see as available for a Necromancer interested in getting involved in events>
I'm super torn here, because what drew me to Necromancers was having to try and stay secret. Once I started playing one, I discovered how rough that actually was - I'm sorry, but I'm not going to train TM with sorcery and look like a derp, especially with others being able to out me mechanically fairly easy. So I like the persecution angle. I see, personally, my character's only recourse to be acting from the shadows, and doing my good/bad in a low key way so that people can find him trustworthy or not. Large groups are too likely to insta-smite, and to be honest given the lore they should be.
<How invested do you feel in the community at large>
Not really, but this isn't new. I'm only invested with those I've RP'd with.
<If people know, do people harass you, do they just pretend you don't exist>
I'm usually hidden, and the character is relatively quiet. But I do the smart things - run around town invis, train in hiding, etc.
<How much of either your interaction or avoidance of interaction is grounded in PvP?>
I'm garbage at PvP - I've never studied the meta like my friends who used to play, I don't understand the tricks. I can barely manage to watch people I'm so inexperienced. But I know those bigger than me will squish me, so I avoid being seen most of the time.
<In general, do you believe the current state of the global, unyielding "forced pariah" status of Necromancers has given you more opportunities to roleplay, or fewer?>
Fewer, and I wanted to suggest a possible solution to this, although the thread seems to have already hinted at this. Dissension in the ranks, where one group is either more sympathetic or less murderous and gives characters an out to not immediately kill. Maybe someone meets my character and I help them (even though my character is standoffish I often can't help myself as a player), so when they find out I'm a necromancer, they have something to think about instead of "better put on my murder face."
I'd hope that something like this would give the Inquisition a shot in the arm ("HEATHONS!") and let other forces start fighting a "hearts and minds" approach. Because the Hounds look REAL bad to bystanders, and lots of Necromancers look decidedly less bad (especially if you only hunt 'nonsentients.') And we need a bit of wiggle room to allow Necromancers to occasionally interact with the populace in a way that lets both parties leave tense, but probably not always murdered. Because face it, unless death in DR starts getting really bad, it solves almost nothing.
<How often do you interact with individuals, larger groups, or at actual events? In what way(s) in general do you find interaction or new people to play with?>
Mostly only at Necronight; until then I was hiding out in the Islands.
<What avenues do you see as available for a Necromancer interested in getting involved in events>
I'm super torn here, because what drew me to Necromancers was having to try and stay secret. Once I started playing one, I discovered how rough that actually was - I'm sorry, but I'm not going to train TM with sorcery and look like a derp, especially with others being able to out me mechanically fairly easy. So I like the persecution angle. I see, personally, my character's only recourse to be acting from the shadows, and doing my good/bad in a low key way so that people can find him trustworthy or not. Large groups are too likely to insta-smite, and to be honest given the lore they should be.
<How invested do you feel in the community at large>
Not really, but this isn't new. I'm only invested with those I've RP'd with.
<If people know, do people harass you, do they just pretend you don't exist>
I'm usually hidden, and the character is relatively quiet. But I do the smart things - run around town invis, train in hiding, etc.
<How much of either your interaction or avoidance of interaction is grounded in PvP?>
I'm garbage at PvP - I've never studied the meta like my friends who used to play, I don't understand the tricks. I can barely manage to watch people I'm so inexperienced. But I know those bigger than me will squish me, so I avoid being seen most of the time.
<In general, do you believe the current state of the global, unyielding "forced pariah" status of Necromancers has given you more opportunities to roleplay, or fewer?>
Fewer, and I wanted to suggest a possible solution to this, although the thread seems to have already hinted at this. Dissension in the ranks, where one group is either more sympathetic or less murderous and gives characters an out to not immediately kill. Maybe someone meets my character and I help them (even though my character is standoffish I often can't help myself as a player), so when they find out I'm a necromancer, they have something to think about instead of "better put on my murder face."
I'd hope that something like this would give the Inquisition a shot in the arm ("HEATHONS!") and let other forces start fighting a "hearts and minds" approach. Because the Hounds look REAL bad to bystanders, and lots of Necromancers look decidedly less bad (especially if you only hunt 'nonsentients.') And we need a bit of wiggle room to allow Necromancers to occasionally interact with the populace in a way that lets both parties leave tense, but probably not always murdered. Because face it, unless death in DR starts getting really bad, it solves almost nothing.
>> Dissension in the ranks, where one group is either more sympathetic or less murderous and gives characters an out to not immediately kill. Maybe someone meets my character and I help them (even though my character is standoffish I often can't help myself as a player), so when they find out I'm a necromancer, they have something to think about instead of "better put on my murder face."
FWIW this has largely been my approach with my PC. I tried to make someone generally gregarious, outgoing, charming, and kind for a certain value of kindness. I really tried to stick hard to the spirit of the Philosophy being an ethical stance as well as explicitly anti-demon, and give people reasons to pause when the truth did come out. ICly the prevailing social narrative you hear is about Necromancers being nothing but mindless, murdering monsters; isn't it at least a little interesting to give people something different? Wouldn't that give some characters pause, if they'd gotten to know someone and found that person to be not what a Necromancer has been painted to be? And in some cases that's been enough for some PCs to justify continued association even in secret, though in a lot of cases it isn't. And of course events and such are still right out.
I think more room can exist without compromising much. I'm optimistic to see what comes out of this thread in terms of maybe changing trajectories a little bit.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
FWIW this has largely been my approach with my PC. I tried to make someone generally gregarious, outgoing, charming, and kind for a certain value of kindness. I really tried to stick hard to the spirit of the Philosophy being an ethical stance as well as explicitly anti-demon, and give people reasons to pause when the truth did come out. ICly the prevailing social narrative you hear is about Necromancers being nothing but mindless, murdering monsters; isn't it at least a little interesting to give people something different? Wouldn't that give some characters pause, if they'd gotten to know someone and found that person to be not what a Necromancer has been painted to be? And in some cases that's been enough for some PCs to justify continued association even in secret, though in a lot of cases it isn't. And of course events and such are still right out.
I think more room can exist without compromising much. I'm optimistic to see what comes out of this thread in terms of maybe changing trajectories a little bit.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
My necromancer is my main, really only, character. I've played him for a decent span of time now, although there's been a fairly large gap where I just logged in every now and again and researched something.
>How often do you interact with individuals, larger groups, or at actual events? In what way(s) in general do you find interaction or new people to play with?
If there's a necromancer meeting scheduled, I try to show up. I don't attend non-necromancer events because of concerns about being arrested or disrupting the event. I generally avoid places where people are, and, for a significant chunk of my character's existence as a necromancer, have pretty much not interacted with anyone.
>What avenues do you see as available for a Necromancer interested in getting involved in events, be they player-run or GM-run?
There is clearly the potential for conflict with other pcs and npcs, assuming that said conflict occurs outside of a justice zone. Aside from that, keeping it a secret, then once you are eventually unmasked, scurrying off to your hide in your hole forever.
>How invested do you feel in the community at large (i.e. more than just other Necromancers)? What do you do when there is an event or festival you want to attend but know your character would not realistically be welcome there? How do you deal with Justice/ACCUSE when balancing this desire?
My initial urge is to assert that the larger community may as well not exist so far as I am concerned. That's not entirely the case, I often have positive interactions with a handful of non-necromancers, and occasionally have had some strongly negative ones. I avoid events. If I want to buy something I try to do it at an odd hour and try not to stand around anywhere that I might get arrested.
>How much of either your interaction or avoidance of interaction is grounded in PvP? What would you, using all of your background and experience, say to a 50th circle Necromancer that has been "outted" if they ask you how to find roleplay or hooks within the community that is not purely PvP?
The possibility of pvp is something I try to keep in mind, and it is a concern, but not really foremost in my thoughts. (That said, after the then-spouse of another necromancer accused me as a preamble to trying to gank me without so much as a by-your-leave, I transitioned to spending all of my in-town and travel time invisible.) I don't have any answers here, or at least no satisfying ones.
>In general, do you believe the current state of the global, unyielding "forced pariah" status of Necromancers has given you more opportunities to roleplay, or fewer?
There are some things that I like about it, and a lot of things that I don't mind, but on the balance I feel that I have a very limited capacity to participate meaningfully in the community at large unless I want to fight people or disrupt events. Perhaps that is working as intended, it certainly helps support some of the themes of the guild. As a player, however, even I find the experience somewhat frustrating at times.
I am uncertain what an ideal solution to this would look like. It feels like things have been going on too long in this vein for a quiet retcon to not be jarring and dissatisfying. At the same time, there's an awful lot of stuff that would need to be navigated.
>How often do you interact with individuals, larger groups, or at actual events? In what way(s) in general do you find interaction or new people to play with?
If there's a necromancer meeting scheduled, I try to show up. I don't attend non-necromancer events because of concerns about being arrested or disrupting the event. I generally avoid places where people are, and, for a significant chunk of my character's existence as a necromancer, have pretty much not interacted with anyone.
>What avenues do you see as available for a Necromancer interested in getting involved in events, be they player-run or GM-run?
There is clearly the potential for conflict with other pcs and npcs, assuming that said conflict occurs outside of a justice zone. Aside from that, keeping it a secret, then once you are eventually unmasked, scurrying off to your hide in your hole forever.
>How invested do you feel in the community at large (i.e. more than just other Necromancers)? What do you do when there is an event or festival you want to attend but know your character would not realistically be welcome there? How do you deal with Justice/ACCUSE when balancing this desire?
My initial urge is to assert that the larger community may as well not exist so far as I am concerned. That's not entirely the case, I often have positive interactions with a handful of non-necromancers, and occasionally have had some strongly negative ones. I avoid events. If I want to buy something I try to do it at an odd hour and try not to stand around anywhere that I might get arrested.
>How much of either your interaction or avoidance of interaction is grounded in PvP? What would you, using all of your background and experience, say to a 50th circle Necromancer that has been "outted" if they ask you how to find roleplay or hooks within the community that is not purely PvP?
The possibility of pvp is something I try to keep in mind, and it is a concern, but not really foremost in my thoughts. (That said, after the then-spouse of another necromancer accused me as a preamble to trying to gank me without so much as a by-your-leave, I transitioned to spending all of my in-town and travel time invisible.) I don't have any answers here, or at least no satisfying ones.
>In general, do you believe the current state of the global, unyielding "forced pariah" status of Necromancers has given you more opportunities to roleplay, or fewer?
There are some things that I like about it, and a lot of things that I don't mind, but on the balance I feel that I have a very limited capacity to participate meaningfully in the community at large unless I want to fight people or disrupt events. Perhaps that is working as intended, it certainly helps support some of the themes of the guild. As a player, however, even I find the experience somewhat frustrating at times.
I am uncertain what an ideal solution to this would look like. It feels like things have been going on too long in this vein for a quiet retcon to not be jarring and dissatisfying. At the same time, there's an awful lot of stuff that would need to be navigated.
First I want to say that I don't play DR for interaction. I play a necromancer in part because it requires so little interaction. I get plenty of socialization outside of DR. When I login I expect a relaxing - or even mindless - period of isolation. I don't feel this perspective has been represented in this thread, and I can't be the only one, so I'll chime in.
That said, I don't find DR's playerbase particularly interested in serious RP. Maybe I've just been unlucky.
>> How often do you interact with individuals, larger groups, or at actual events? In what way(s) in general do you find interaction or new people to play with?
Individuals: Rarely, and that's how I like it. I haven't generally found them satisfying anyway (with a few notable exceptions).
Larger groups: Avoid like the plague. There's only so much snuggling, tickling, and ear-nibbling I can take.
-- Necro meetings aren't so bad, though I rarely know about them or have any availability to attend. The notices go up so soon before - I don't play every day or even every week, so I generally miss out.
Actual events: Even bleeping worse. Ugh. First, the scroll is so bad I have NO idea what's going on. Second, the GMs / NPCs seem to only want to interact with the same people. I guess I'm not part of that in-crowd. Third, I find it revolting how the players all gather round the GMNPC begging and starving for some sliver of attention. It reminds me of the kids swarming Chucky Cheese. No-thank-you.
>> What avenues do you see as available for a Necromancer interested in getting involved in events, be they player-run or GM-run?
Roughly the same as every other guild - i.e. none unless you've bothered to befriend the right crowd. Which is fine, don't get me wrong - that's human nature. And maybe this has gotten better since I stopped attending these? I don't know, but the entire GM-event model is off-putting to me.
Keeping my necro-nature a secret wasn't ever a big concern of mine. "Oh darn, now I won't be able to listen to classes at the bin while two empaths nuzzle and lick each other? OH NOES!!!!"
>> How invested do you feel in the community at large (i.e. more than just other Necromancers)? What do you do when there is an event or festival you want to attend but know your character would not realistically be welcome there? How do you deal with Justice/ACCUSE when balancing this desire?
I'll admit Justice / Accuse has prevented me from giving events another shot. But I wouldn't say it's something that has caused me any sort of distress. Generally during event hours I'm not in DR anyway. I don't feel invested in the community at large at all. I'd like to be more involved in the necro community, as there's some rational reason why I'd be interacting with them at all. But I don't schedule my life around DR, sorry.
>> If people know, do people harass you, do they just pretend you don't exist (zero interaction), or do they shoot first and ask questions never?
Harass, generally. I've found that the pinnacle of RP among the bulk of DR's players is something along the lines of, "Yo, man. You totally just cast a necro spell. That's, like, totally not cool. Leave field goblins immediately and never come back or my level 150 brother is going to come kill you! [Dude, I'm just RPing. Like, leave for two hours and come back, it's cool bro!]" {WARN: CONFLICT}
>> How much of either your interaction or avoidance of interaction is grounded in PvP?
Some. I don't object to the IDEA of PvP, but 1) DR isn't built for it, 2) It's pretty much solely a measure of who has spent most of their life in DR, and 3) the inevitable policy hearings with GMs is a Kafka-esque nightmare that would give even the most pedantic lawyers a seizure. Not worth it.
>> In general, do you believe the current state of the global, unyielding "forced pariah" status of Necromancers has given you more opportunities to roleplay, or fewer?
Fewer. But I also suspect this fact has made necromancers entirely self-sufficient in design, so I wouldn't have it any other way.
Love,
me.
That said, I don't find DR's playerbase particularly interested in serious RP. Maybe I've just been unlucky.
>> How often do you interact with individuals, larger groups, or at actual events? In what way(s) in general do you find interaction or new people to play with?
Individuals: Rarely, and that's how I like it. I haven't generally found them satisfying anyway (with a few notable exceptions).
Larger groups: Avoid like the plague. There's only so much snuggling, tickling, and ear-nibbling I can take.
-- Necro meetings aren't so bad, though I rarely know about them or have any availability to attend. The notices go up so soon before - I don't play every day or even every week, so I generally miss out.
Actual events: Even bleeping worse. Ugh. First, the scroll is so bad I have NO idea what's going on. Second, the GMs / NPCs seem to only want to interact with the same people. I guess I'm not part of that in-crowd. Third, I find it revolting how the players all gather round the GMNPC begging and starving for some sliver of attention. It reminds me of the kids swarming Chucky Cheese. No-thank-you.
>> What avenues do you see as available for a Necromancer interested in getting involved in events, be they player-run or GM-run?
Roughly the same as every other guild - i.e. none unless you've bothered to befriend the right crowd. Which is fine, don't get me wrong - that's human nature. And maybe this has gotten better since I stopped attending these? I don't know, but the entire GM-event model is off-putting to me.
Keeping my necro-nature a secret wasn't ever a big concern of mine. "Oh darn, now I won't be able to listen to classes at the bin while two empaths nuzzle and lick each other? OH NOES!!!!"
>> How invested do you feel in the community at large (i.e. more than just other Necromancers)? What do you do when there is an event or festival you want to attend but know your character would not realistically be welcome there? How do you deal with Justice/ACCUSE when balancing this desire?
I'll admit Justice / Accuse has prevented me from giving events another shot. But I wouldn't say it's something that has caused me any sort of distress. Generally during event hours I'm not in DR anyway. I don't feel invested in the community at large at all. I'd like to be more involved in the necro community, as there's some rational reason why I'd be interacting with them at all. But I don't schedule my life around DR, sorry.
>> If people know, do people harass you, do they just pretend you don't exist (zero interaction), or do they shoot first and ask questions never?
Harass, generally. I've found that the pinnacle of RP among the bulk of DR's players is something along the lines of, "Yo, man. You totally just cast a necro spell. That's, like, totally not cool. Leave field goblins immediately and never come back or my level 150 brother is going to come kill you! [Dude, I'm just RPing. Like, leave for two hours and come back, it's cool bro!]" {WARN: CONFLICT}
>> How much of either your interaction or avoidance of interaction is grounded in PvP?
Some. I don't object to the IDEA of PvP, but 1) DR isn't built for it, 2) It's pretty much solely a measure of who has spent most of their life in DR, and 3) the inevitable policy hearings with GMs is a Kafka-esque nightmare that would give even the most pedantic lawyers a seizure. Not worth it.
>> In general, do you believe the current state of the global, unyielding "forced pariah" status of Necromancers has given you more opportunities to roleplay, or fewer?
Fewer. But I also suspect this fact has made necromancers entirely self-sufficient in design, so I wouldn't have it any other way.
Love,
me.
I've been avidly following this thread despite not having a Necromancer because I've been considering creating a Necromancer for some time. For me, while I entirely am fascinated by the admission of Armifer that the plot line hasn't developed as fully as originally planned, I've been entirely jealous about the lore attention to Necromancers. I think it must be a reflection of the adage that your toughest critic is yourself, because I look at both the in-game developments and the lore posts by Armifer and I really, really want to applaud all of the work. I can see the "half empty" view that with all of these juicy clues to bigger and more interesting developments that Necromancers are left hanging, but I'd say at least you have that. A lot of Guilds don't even have that.
What ever happened to resolving issues with the Paladin Guild, their founding, and issues with their perception of holy mana?
What the hell is up with Bards and the Naga? What are the Naga?
When will Traders finally get Magic.
I can very easily see pathways to being cynical and pessimistic, so from my perceptive as a non-Necromancer it's always been a little bit of the grass is always greener. If you want to take the time to develop a challenging character, you can. I've never had the time, but I've always been jealous of what I perceived to be a more fleshed out lore structure that could ground my RPing. OTOH, maybe folks aren't interested in serious RP. YMMV.
What ever happened to resolving issues with the Paladin Guild, their founding, and issues with their perception of holy mana?
What the hell is up with Bards and the Naga? What are the Naga?
When will Traders finally get Magic.
I can very easily see pathways to being cynical and pessimistic, so from my perceptive as a non-Necromancer it's always been a little bit of the grass is always greener. If you want to take the time to develop a challenging character, you can. I've never had the time, but I've always been jealous of what I perceived to be a more fleshed out lore structure that could ground my RPing. OTOH, maybe folks aren't interested in serious RP. YMMV.
>>I can very easily see pathways to being cynical and pessimistic, so from my perceptive as a non-Necromancer it's always been a little bit of the grass is always greener.
The difference with your examples is that the General RP-way those guilds are treated don't hinge on any storylines they have in limbo, nor do those guilds face notable handicaps due to their storylines.
The issue isn't "the really cool lore isn't done yet," but "a major cornerstone of DR is roleplay and interaction. Since DR's 'normal' roleplay and interaction route is essentially inaccessible for the lion's share of necromancers, what is there for them to do instead?"
If you play a Necromancer, your roleplay/development essentially relies on the guild's lore development explicitly because you can't just join in on something else without having those results essentially already be predetermined for you.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
The difference with your examples is that the General RP-way those guilds are treated don't hinge on any storylines they have in limbo, nor do those guilds face notable handicaps due to their storylines.
The issue isn't "the really cool lore isn't done yet," but "a major cornerstone of DR is roleplay and interaction. Since DR's 'normal' roleplay and interaction route is essentially inaccessible for the lion's share of necromancers, what is there for them to do instead?"
If you play a Necromancer, your roleplay/development essentially relies on the guild's lore development explicitly because you can't just join in on something else without having those results essentially already be predetermined for you.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
> The difference with your examples is that the General RP-way those guilds are treated don't hinge on any storylines they have in limbo, nor do those guilds face notable handicaps due to their storylines.
I think this is a good point. There is something to be said for the person who just wants to grind away in a game, unbothered by the rest of the world. Someone who wants minimal contact on their own terms. That's fine, and I don't think any of the proposals have suggested that this be taken away. There's also something to be said for someone who wants the mechanics of a guild, maybe light RP with that guild, but doesn't want to devastate their experience in the game by choosing said guild.
Mechanically, necromancers are amazing. They have unique skill sets, they had solo potentials out the gate that the rest of the game is just starting to catch up to in recent years, they have the pet system that warrior mages and rangers dream about, and complex systems that aren't (always) overbearing (until you start adding other players).
> If you play a Necromancer, your roleplay/development essentially relies on the guild's lore development explicitly because you can't just join in on something else without having those results essentially already be predetermined for you.
You're absolutely right, but the lore gives you a wide breadth of possibilities due to the change/insanity/loosely defined parts. Your necro might be very wrong, in terms of lore, but the insanity factor lets you go anywhere you want with it. For example, one of the ideas I've been toying with is to make a necro and create genie subs that replace all of the death and decay messaging with bright, happy, maybe even spiritually fueled messaging. It was a way to get into character of a necro who believes he's doing the right thing. A necro that believes he's worshiping the gods the way they secretly intended, even if he's not. I'm not a good RP'r, and I'm not sure I could actually pull this off; however, success would hinge on social interaction, and I'm concerned that this kind of interaction has no place in DR as it stands (both some players and most lore). I don't know if that would ever change, and I think it would more likely quickly devolve into a monty python sketch ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfKh80BHSnk ) followed by an inquisition.
> Since DR's 'normal' roleplay and interaction route is essentially inaccessible for the lion's share of necromancers, what is there for them to do instead?"
This is the thing. I play DR more or less solo, grinding ranks like everyone else; however, I want the option for light RP when I come back to town after a hunting trip. Necros have the first part covered, and very well; however, the second part is something I would LOVE to see fixed. I'd say that this should be done as quickly as possible, even if it didn't have a grand quest or event supporting it, and preferably in a way that didn't hurt #1. IE: A necro who is barred from using their abilities isn't really a necro, they're a commoner with somewhat poor learning and a few spell scrolls.
Somewhat unrelated to this thread -
>There's only so much snuggling, tickling, and ear-nibbling I can take.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2rh2s68.jpg
I do not mean that in jest. I 100% agree with you, and if you'd said that in my physical presence, I'd have immediately purchased a drink for you. High school level shnugglywugglies has always been a problem in DR, and right up there with 'boohoo my character was an orphan', some of the most obnoxious behavior MUD players get up to.
>Some. I don't object to the IDEA of PvP, but 1) DR isn't built for it, 2) It's pretty much solely a measure of who has spent most of their life in DR, and 3) the inevitable policy hearings with GMs is a Kafka-esque nightmare that would give even the most pedantic lawyers a seizure. Not worth it.
I really wish there was a fix to this, and I don't know what it is. We all want to see this game more fully fleshed out and developed, and I have no idea how to deal with the run away TDP/rank issue.
>If you play a Necromancer, your roleplay/development essentially relies on the guild's lore development explicitly because you can't just join in on something else without having those results essentially already be predetermined for you.
It has been a rather interesting experiment in forcing the player base to try and make their own storylines, but given some of the mechanical limitations, it's been rough. A lot of Necromancers didn't take the most realistic approaches, which accounts for some frustration, but many did, and were still met with various issues. I'm all about revising the guild to make things more reasonable for RP, but I also think some kind of more fundamental change may need to occur within the game itself to shift some of the capacity for generating RP events and storylines to the players. Some of the GMs are excellent storytellers, and I don't want to take away from that, but so too are some of the players.
I have been considering this for a while myself. I understand why necromancers are on the outside of society and why they are not generally accepted. I am not sure why there can not be a group that does accept them though. I know there is the fear of the Hounds or the inquisition or just the general peoples views of them.
I am sorry please bear with me I am not the most organized writer/thinker but I think I might have a decent idea. Now if RL is any indication there are times and groups that will ignore those that the necromancers would be compared to. I think of for example war. How many different groups were accepted at least partially into the military during such times? Would it be such a stretch for a person to think why not get a group of strong people together to help defend my home. Ignoring necromancy as an issue. Yes the immortals condemn necromancers but yet they do not go as far as total destroying said individuals. The person could feel that giving them a focus a purpose might prevent them (the necromancer) from going crazy and destroying major towns and small villages. Or consider this would be a good way to keep an eye on them.
How about looking at our RL. There are those that follow religion that want to try to convert or at least show tolerance to those on the fringe. Now I could see this being a bit harder to pull off in game. Yet there is a possible way.
Now both of those suggestions mostly the second but the first could become a few non necromancers and then necromancers. Not much different then bi-monthly meeting I realize. Now this last suggestion is what I consider the best and most likely to succeed. Though the military one if the group got organized could try to show others that they are not too bad. Meet us and see we are people too. Yes, I expect conflict but any necromancer that hopes that people will just open up and throw flowers at their feet has been sniffing the embalming fluids too much. Sorry got side tracked. The last idea I had was this. A group that ignores what guild a member is in because they are seeking to do more then that. I am considering making a group such as that but I have floated it in this very same message board and there is next to no interest in the necromancer guild. Since it is easier for me to discuss my idea by explaining it by talking in abstracts. I would love to make an alchemy society of adventures. Where ideas can be exchanged, people could meet and support each other, newer people to the profession could get information etc. Please do not rehash your views on alchemy I do not feel this is the place or the time. Now any group that is formed like this that lets say focuses on Engineering, or smithing or anything as long as people are passionate about it why could it not be a group? Why would such a group need to have an exclusion for necromancy? The only reason I would see is to prevent the hounds or the inquisition from coming and killing them all. The inquisition is a group of players so I am not as worried about them. After all are they going to come and kill all? The ranger, the barb etc that decided they liked the same thing? While I run down this tangent why would it need to be restricted to crafting. Why could it not be a weapon sub class? A skill like performance?
The last paragraph talks about a group that would accept any into its group. Though I think I might of been a bit too vague. If I was running it I would play more on the don't ask, don't tell policy. Membership would be asked not to discuss or practice certain things in the group. Necromancy and thievery comes off the top of my head but I have not actually sat here and wrote up a full list of the rules. If a person walks in holding hands with a zombie that is not going to go well for anyone. Same idea if a person comes to the group bragging about stealing from all the shops in town. The group would not want that kind of heat. Now the person being known for necromancy that does not flash it during meeting the fact of what they are, could be ignored for the benefit of the group.
This is just some rambling of a necromancer that has not given up that one point when I am older and known as one will have to retire to a cave.
> I am not sure why there can not be a group that does accept them though.
You make a lot of good points but you really have to try and remove the player from the character's world. In Elanthia, the Gods (AKA the only reason you can live more than one life) say "No, don't touch that and if you do then hope you don't die again." Would really anyone who actually lived in this would go against that? In DR, there are a lot of places for moral ambiguity but Necromancers really don't have it. The Gods and even Fate basically have said "They can't sit with us" and pretty much anyone would be a fool to do so.
You make a lot of good points but you really have to try and remove the player from the character's world. In Elanthia, the Gods (AKA the only reason you can live more than one life) say "No, don't touch that and if you do then hope you don't die again." Would really anyone who actually lived in this would go against that? In DR, there are a lot of places for moral ambiguity but Necromancers really don't have it. The Gods and even Fate basically have said "They can't sit with us" and pretty much anyone would be a fool to do so.
