Related to my previous post, I was just smote by Hodeirna for my crimes against the divine order of Elanthia. And I'm sure my character really does deserve it for mutilating thousands of corpses.

That said, I sprinted back to my grave only to discover that my hands were too damaged to pick up any of my items. No problem, I thought. I killed a creature and tried to perform consume on it - but this failed of course, because I had no knife.

I can think of a lot of scenarios where this would be a very difficult situation without the use of an alt. But frankly, any solution seems like borderline mech abuse anyway. If my hand is too damaged to pick up an item, why should I be able to 'buy' or 'accept' an item?

Is there another solution I'm not aware of? (I guess you could vault prepared body parts?) Not looking to complain, just trying to start a discussion. Thanks,

- Player of Rellie / Copernicus

I'd prefer the implementation of some kind of 'last-ditch' work-around that necromancers can do to heal themselves w/o a knife/hands. Perhaps a spell or ritual of some kind that sprouts a 'bone knife' from somewhere on the necros body that's too dull to work as a weapon, but can work as an inferior method of performing rituals.

I seem to remember this being an issue that was brought up YEARS ago, and I'm not sure if it was ever addressed. It doesn't happen frequently, and you kind of have to screw up bad to get to the point that it's an issue, but it certainly represents a pretty thorough screwing of your character given that the only thing you can seemingly do is wait for DO to cool down, wait for SRE to restore, and let SRE heal you on DEPART DEATH.

That or find someone to apply a remedy, but, pfft.

You could probably use Depart Guild with Covetous Rebirth to deal with this.

>>Wouldn't it fall under the "holy deaths block SRE" rule since it's spiritual necromancy, too?

Tested this recently and was able to CRE after being killed by HE. Hoping that's an intended feature; team holy being able to force us to leave graves could bad quickly.

>>Hoping that's an intended feature

Hope so, too. I mean, mechanically it's nothing wacky, but it triggers Forsaken status just like SRE/CFB and it's thematically demonic, which is why I wasn't sure.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

I don't think that the issue here is the notion that when hands are destroyed, things cannot be held/manipulated with them. That's pretty awesome. I love it, and would hate to see it go.

The issue here is that Forsaken necros sometimes need hands, even when destroyed, in order to function. Ergo they should develop a work around.

I can understand just wanting broken hands to no longer be a thing, as it's highly inconvenient. To that I just say that it should be and it adds, in my opinion, something interesting to do/experience. I don't believe that just because something is inconveniencing it's necessarily bad for the game. Often times inconveniences are what the best gameplay is made out of.

That said, if no necro workaround can be developed, it could be argued that our guild's particular issue is bad enough to warrant removing the feature at least temporarily until one can be. That's a judgement call. I'm okay with waiting for a necro work around, but others may be less patient and/or see this as a more vital issue. If permadeath were still a thing, I'd see this as much, much more vital.

I was not able to depart death. I did not try depart guild. I was under the impression that the block would be the same, but I didn't test.

I agree that this is a potentially larger issue than just Necromancers, although it does affect Necros uniquely. Let's face it, when you're departing seriously wounded and without favors, you're in a pretty desperate spot. It's one thing to lose the use of one hand - I agree that mechanically that is fun and interesting. But losing both hands is seriously problematic from a mechanics standpoint, assuming you don't have an alt to help you out. And since the philosophy has been away from item loss as a consequence of death in general, it might bear revisiting.

But otherwise, if this is intended, you shouldn't be able to ACCEPT or BUY or STEAL an item either, so those three verbs could use updating. And SLIPs should be blocked too.

You could still have someone else rub herbs on you. Or go to your vault and eat something out of it? (But how can you OPEN the vault without hands?) Could you actually WITHDRAW coins without hands? Also, your gloves should probably fall off when your hands or arms are cut off.

I mean, I have 3 alt accounts so it's no big deal to me. I just thought it was worth discussing. It's certainly a rare but interesting edge case. I think the simplest 'solution' might be to heal one hand just a tiny bit more on depart to the point where it is usable.

Again though, instead of changing the mechanic of how broken hands work for the entire game, an easier solution would be to simply change how PERFORM CONSUME works for Necros.

>perform consume

You use the jagged end of a bone jutting out of your mangled hand to perform a series of cuts...

Copy one or two of the abilities/spells from the empath guild, and just give necromancers a new consume that mirrors link unity or spell that mirrors regeneration. .

> perform ingurgitate (or perform unity)

You see: You leap onto <creature>'s corpse, enveloping the both of you in a caccoon of viridian and copper light. Abruptly, The <creature>'s corpse dissolves into a pool of glowing goo which seeps into your every wound. You concentrate, converting the usable material into new life. Your body is completely healed.
... wait 60 seconds. Zombies or mudmen will move into a position to guard you. You're now prone. Corpse is gone, but loot/weapons remain (triggers a loot all).

Others see: <Evil necro>'s eyes gleam with bloodlust as it leaps onto the <creature>'s corpse. A flash of viridian and copper envelop them, leaving only <evil necro> behind, looking better than ever.

Alternatively, just steal regen.

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Cyclic TM/utility. Does everything regen does with slightly different colors. Requires at least one creature at melee for the pulse to go off. Deals a small bit of vitality damage to everything at melee with the necro, 5% or so, per pulse.

>the spirit of what the system is meant to accomplish (prohibit people from wielding items) is maintained,

Ideally it'd include not just wielding items, but using hands to manipulate things in general. Having both of your hands broken is one of those things that should rightfully be a big deal that alters core gameplay in a significant way. Going from having working hands to having hands that are broken (or completely severed!) should be enough to bring a screeching halt to whatever other activities are going on at the time, except maybe running away from whatever broke your hands in the first place. It should potentially mean item loss.

Having to find an empath or some other creative way to imbibe/use remedies, or some other option is completely fine and working as intended. I'll even suggest that we have a way for people to pull things out of their bags with their teeth or toes, so people can use remedies without hands. There should be actions a character can take to mitigate the effect of not having hands, but none of them should be easy.

That said, it should not mean your character has no way to recover except to exploit the healing effect of being resurrected. That is one example of the system not working as intended.


>1) It's just kicking the can of addressing the wound system down the road.

Completely agreed. It's a pain, but some of DRs most core mechanics really need looking at/overhauling/re-imagining. I'm looking primarily at the economy and healing/wound systems, here. How long have we been without woundable feet, for instance? Why is it that hands can be broken to the point of not working, but we can still walk around with both legs broken? More importantly, current healing options are far too quick/easy and don't involve as much engagement from the players as it really ought to, imo. Healing should be difficult, dangerous, and fun, rather than quick, hassle-free, and easy. Currently, being healed by an empath with extremely low skill is a more stimulating experience than being healed by some super-puff that's got your gaping holes and severed limbs 'all clean' in 5 seconds flat. Not a very engaging or fun mechanic when it happens like that, and more of a chore than anything.

There's a lot of fundamental, underlying stuff that should be addressed. Band-aid fixes for vital things, like being stuck with no way to heal except death, are fine as stop-gap measures until additional development resources can be allocated, though, I think.

>>I suppose this is a good a time as any to ask if Melete can chime in with the additional healing options discussed for Necros (a heal after time, a lay in wait spell, etc)?

The HOT spell is in QC, and has been for a long time, because I haven't worked up the gumption to fix the corrections. The HOT spell also is pre-castable. I'll see if I can forage up any gumption, though in these parts lately all we have is rain and mosquitoes.

As to the rest of this thread...

I am not a fan of giving anything like Unity or HoH to Necromancers. As far as I'm concerned, the similarity to Empaths ends with things Empaths can do while permashocked. Most of the better healing abilities are not usable by permashocked Empaths. Unity is of course a heal-others ability and not a heal-self ability. Even Empaths do not have anything as powerful as a self-unity would be, though regen can give it a run for its money. FoC can be very powerful, too, of course, but both of these have considerable drawbacks.

I'm not a necro dev or on the necro team, despite sometimes working on necro-y things, so take that as you will. If I was going to solve this problem, I'd ensure that anyone, Necro or otherwise, can at least pick things up if they die and depart favorless, as that is the most common scenario I see for you guys needing to heal yourselves without having your philosoknives. This impacts other players, too, so it makes sense in my opinion to solve the problem for everyone and not just Necromancers.

Melete

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Nature, it seems, is the popular name
for milliards and milliards and milliards
of particles playing their infinite game
of billiards and billiards and billiards.

>The HOT spell is in QC, and has been for a long time, because I haven't worked up the gumption to fix the corrections. The HOT spell also is pre-castable. I'll see if I can forage up any gumption, though in these parts lately all we have is rain and mosquitoes.

What sacrifices do you require of us to help you find the gumption? :)

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

>>To be fair, that's basically your best option for dealing with particularly nasty disease or poison.

While I would like better ways to get around them via alchemy (someday!), SV+CF in rats has saved me from some particularly nasty situations. The issue for me has more been the duration.

Personally, similar to the whole broken hands thing, I think the real issue with poison/disease is that they last way longer than other debilitative attacks. They flat-out shouldn't last an hour or so.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>Why is it that hands can be broken to the point of not working, but we can still walk around with both legs broken?

When the system was designed, it was decided that forcing players to crawl around was unnecessarily punitive game design.

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"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them." -Raesh, on history