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(The following may be considered IC information.)
Among seers and whispered in the wake of the gathering of the Philosophers is a name: Kigot. Kigot's knife; Kigot's inheritance. For a Necromancer that died long before most adventurers were born, he seems to have inordinate influence.
Almost nothing is known about Kigot's past, except for one embarrassing truth the Temple did not quite manage to censor: the earliest references to the man address him as Friar Kigot. The nature of his service to the Temple, as well as whatever led up to his fall, are lost. However, what scant writings exist of the Hounds of Rutilor's initial purge implicate him.
After the purge, Kigot's life as a Necromancer is well established (insofar as anyone keeps tabs on any Necromancer's life). He earned the title of Necrolord in the years that followed, which is, strictly speaking, not unusual. Even his fall from a holy man into depravity is not more than a universal trope cycling over and over again through history.
What was exceptional was how he attacked the Temple: he wrote.
Reputable scholars do not keep copies of any of Kigot's texts, though apparently they penetrated the usually insular bubbles of the necromantic cults. In particular, the book he wrote shortly before his death is referenced in many obscure corners of necromantic esoterica. Far from the mind-blasting grimoires and occult, demonic rites that usually populate a Necromancer's shelf, it was a simple, albeit long, book on the philosophy of man.
It was called "The Philosophy of the Knife."
By all accounts, Kigot died a spectacular death. Though his inclination was toward scholarship, when the Hounds of Rutilor finally came for him in foothills of western Zoluren with a large hunting party, only one Paladin limped away with his life intact. While the Temple refuses to give details about where they disposed of Kigot's body, to avoid encouraging any fanatical Necromancer with a shovel, inquiries return a confirmation that his soul was cast down by Immortals, his body later cremated and the ashes buried in especially hallow ground.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I slip between "key got" and "khEYE (rhymes with chai) got."
He's been dead for closing in on 100 years, so doesn't have much of an opinion on it anymore.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
He's been dead for closing in on 100 years, so doesn't have much of an opinion on it anymore.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Some random observations and questions to mull over...
Kigot died about a century ago, and in the Hounds vision we saw that the Elf doing the preaching (who I am 90% sure is the same Elf from the freaky eyes event prediction) was middle-aged. We can presume based on this that the Elf that was preaching to the Hounds is old enough to have been around when the Kigot stuff was happening, and may well have been directly involved.
The Dwarf, whoever/whatever he was, also seemed to be rather old; he referred to a grown man as "boy," though this is not exactly conclusive. It may be possible that he was also around during Kigot's time.
The story says one Paladin walked away. Who was he? Is he still alive? Does he tell his story anywhere?
The appearance of the Old Man was first rumored to occur some decades before Kigot's death. Who was he? Would this perhaps line up with when Kigot became a Necrolord, and possibly even have something to do with it?
And what is the Old Man, really? It's highly unlikely that he's an actual person at this point. I wonder if we'll find out more about what he is when the guild gets released.
Rev. Reene
Your mind hears Aislynn thinking, "Hrrr. Just not Caelumia. She creates multi-dimensional pain that defies the laws of anatomy."
Your mind hears Azatia thinking, "she's good like that"
Kigot died about a century ago, and in the Hounds vision we saw that the Elf doing the preaching (who I am 90% sure is the same Elf from the freaky eyes event prediction) was middle-aged. We can presume based on this that the Elf that was preaching to the Hounds is old enough to have been around when the Kigot stuff was happening, and may well have been directly involved.
The Dwarf, whoever/whatever he was, also seemed to be rather old; he referred to a grown man as "boy," though this is not exactly conclusive. It may be possible that he was also around during Kigot's time.
The story says one Paladin walked away. Who was he? Is he still alive? Does he tell his story anywhere?
The appearance of the Old Man was first rumored to occur some decades before Kigot's death. Who was he? Would this perhaps line up with when Kigot became a Necrolord, and possibly even have something to do with it?
And what is the Old Man, really? It's highly unlikely that he's an actual person at this point. I wonder if we'll find out more about what he is when the guild gets released.
Rev. Reene
Your mind hears Aislynn thinking, "Hrrr. Just not Caelumia. She creates multi-dimensional pain that defies the laws of anatomy."
Your mind hears Azatia thinking, "she's good like that"
Of course who is to say the hounds of Rutilor didn't lie about the fate of Kigot? Wouldn't be the last time that the public face of an official entity hid failures by claiming victory.
Perhaps Kigot is the Old Man and instead of having his soul consigned to the gods, transcended the physical realm....
The hounds would be too terrified to report the truth outside of their most hallowed chambers and claim to have vanquished the foul necromancer from the lands.
As for the surviving paladin, given the way zealots usually work, once he relayed what actually happened, he was likely sent on the starry road to ensure that the story would never get out.
-pete
Perhaps Kigot is the Old Man and instead of having his soul consigned to the gods, transcended the physical realm....
The hounds would be too terrified to report the truth outside of their most hallowed chambers and claim to have vanquished the foul necromancer from the lands.
As for the surviving paladin, given the way zealots usually work, once he relayed what actually happened, he was likely sent on the starry road to ensure that the story would never get out.
-pete
>>Of course who is to say the hounds of Rutilor didn't lie about the fate of Kigot? Wouldn't be the last time that the public face of an official entity hid failures by claiming victory.
Heh, I was betting on the side how long it'd take someone to suggest that.
Some Necromancers think Kigot is alive (or undead), while their peers put it on par with people who wouldn't give up Elvis. Critics point out two major flaws in this belief:
1: If he's alive... where is he? Kigot was not a quiet man -- the reason he was such a strange threat to the Temple was he couldn't shut up. In sharp contrast, no one can reliably claim to have seen him since his death. It would be wildly out of character for Kigot to simply sit somewhere quietly scheming instead of writing a tell-all book about what happened.
2: Given #1, even if Kigot survived... what's the point? Either Kigot is dead, or the experience left Kigot so scarred and changed that he is essentially not Kigot anymore. Either he's dead, or he's functionally dead.
However, I don't wish to protest overly much. It was written fully intending that Kigot could be spun off as a messiah figure with a few leaps of faith, so I'm not going to tell you it's a bad characterization. In the profound stress and religiosity of the Necromancers' life, it's entirely appropriate that some of them crack and desperately seek our their own brand of miracles.
>>And what is the Old Man, really?
There's a man that I used to know
And sometimes he still visits with me
When it's late and the alcohol's glow
Is nearly gone and it's time to awaken
And he looks and he laughs at the sight
And he asks what has happened to me
And I blame it all on the lights
But he smiles and says I'm mistaken
And there is no use in disguising
What the eye can so clearly see
That I've spent my whole life denying
That the man in the mirror is me
...
In a child-like illusion of life
He imagined the things yet to be
But they all disappeared on this night
Carried on among the forsaken
And there is no use in denying
What the eye can so clearly see
That one day I too will be dying
And the man in the mirror agrees
>>I wonder if we'll find out more about what he is when the guild gets released.
Nope. You can find out more about him during the Redemption quest, which will not be available at release.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Heh, I was betting on the side how long it'd take someone to suggest that.
Some Necromancers think Kigot is alive (or undead), while their peers put it on par with people who wouldn't give up Elvis. Critics point out two major flaws in this belief:
1: If he's alive... where is he? Kigot was not a quiet man -- the reason he was such a strange threat to the Temple was he couldn't shut up. In sharp contrast, no one can reliably claim to have seen him since his death. It would be wildly out of character for Kigot to simply sit somewhere quietly scheming instead of writing a tell-all book about what happened.
2: Given #1, even if Kigot survived... what's the point? Either Kigot is dead, or the experience left Kigot so scarred and changed that he is essentially not Kigot anymore. Either he's dead, or he's functionally dead.
However, I don't wish to protest overly much. It was written fully intending that Kigot could be spun off as a messiah figure with a few leaps of faith, so I'm not going to tell you it's a bad characterization. In the profound stress and religiosity of the Necromancers' life, it's entirely appropriate that some of them crack and desperately seek our their own brand of miracles.
>>And what is the Old Man, really?
There's a man that I used to know
And sometimes he still visits with me
When it's late and the alcohol's glow
Is nearly gone and it's time to awaken
And he looks and he laughs at the sight
And he asks what has happened to me
And I blame it all on the lights
But he smiles and says I'm mistaken
And there is no use in disguising
What the eye can so clearly see
That I've spent my whole life denying
That the man in the mirror is me
...
In a child-like illusion of life
He imagined the things yet to be
But they all disappeared on this night
Carried on among the forsaken
And there is no use in denying
What the eye can so clearly see
That one day I too will be dying
And the man in the mirror agrees
>>I wonder if we'll find out more about what he is when the guild gets released.
Nope. You can find out more about him during the Redemption quest, which will not be available at release.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Oh ho... so there is more to being redeemed state then just... not using certain spells. Ever.
If you're bothering to develop a quest for it (and I admit, I'm considering making a redeemed necro) have you given any more thought to making it more playable then... how did you put it "A fallen paladin or a shocked empath"?
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
If you're bothering to develop a quest for it (and I admit, I'm considering making a redeemed necro) have you given any more thought to making it more playable then... how did you put it "A fallen paladin or a shocked empath"?
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
>>Oh ho... so there is more to being redeemed state then just... not using certain spells. Ever.
You lose a lot of your spells and your ability to use Thanatology (with the possible exception of a single, mostly useless ritual to circle with). You gain back the ability to have divine favors, lose any Divine Outrage penalties you're laboring under, and regain access to the holy widgets people are complaining about losing.
>>If you're bothering to develop a quest for it (and I admit, I'm considering making a redeemed necro) have you given any more thought to making it more playable then... how did you put it "A fallen paladin or a shocked empath"?
Zeyurn convinced me to relent enough to let them continue to circle (initially, you'd have been completely barred from fulfilling your reqs). Beyond that, no.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
You lose a lot of your spells and your ability to use Thanatology (with the possible exception of a single, mostly useless ritual to circle with). You gain back the ability to have divine favors, lose any Divine Outrage penalties you're laboring under, and regain access to the holy widgets people are complaining about losing.
>>If you're bothering to develop a quest for it (and I admit, I'm considering making a redeemed necro) have you given any more thought to making it more playable then... how did you put it "A fallen paladin or a shocked empath"?
Zeyurn convinced me to relent enough to let them continue to circle (initially, you'd have been completely barred from fulfilling your reqs). Beyond that, no.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
>If you're bothering to develop a quest for it (and I admit, I'm considering making a redeemed necro) have you given any more thought to making it more playable then... how did you put it "A fallen paladin or a shocked empath"?
Well they ARE trying to make shocked empaths and fallen paladins more playable.
"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer
Well they ARE trying to make shocked empaths and fallen paladins more playable.
"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer
Methinks it might be time to rework that particular character...
I mean - I still like the background for it, and I knew it'd involve giving up two spellbooks and a risen... but let's be honest, if I make a necro I'm gonna want to figure out all their dirty secrets.
Can you clarify two more things (or more... confirm I guess)?
Firstly - Is Redeemed status still a one time ever thing - and is there still planned to be a point beyond which you cannot become Redeemed?
Secondly - So out of the three schools of necromatic thought... it seems fairly clear that the Philosophers of the Knife are intended to be the bulk of PCs just due to playability issues if nothing else and the other two paths are mostly there as lore coherency and "well if you REALLY want to go down that path...". Am I off base here?
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
I mean - I still like the background for it, and I knew it'd involve giving up two spellbooks and a risen... but let's be honest, if I make a necro I'm gonna want to figure out all their dirty secrets.
Can you clarify two more things (or more... confirm I guess)?
Firstly - Is Redeemed status still a one time ever thing - and is there still planned to be a point beyond which you cannot become Redeemed?
Secondly - So out of the three schools of necromatic thought... it seems fairly clear that the Philosophers of the Knife are intended to be the bulk of PCs just due to playability issues if nothing else and the other two paths are mostly there as lore coherency and "well if you REALLY want to go down that path...". Am I off base here?
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
>> Perhaps Kigot is the Old Man and instead of having his soul consigned to the gods, transcended the physical realm....
In addition to all Armifer posted, keep in mind that the first sightings of the Old Man are rumored to have occurred decades before Kigot died.
Rev. Reene
You see Karosti's Favorite Malzard Miakainyuso, Prophet of the Ilithi Court, an Elothean Moon Mage.
In addition to all Armifer posted, keep in mind that the first sightings of the Old Man are rumored to have occurred decades before Kigot died.
Rev. Reene
You see Karosti's Favorite Malzard Miakainyuso, Prophet of the Ilithi Court, an Elothean Moon Mage.
>>Firstly - Is Redeemed status still a one time ever thing - and is there still planned to be a point beyond which you cannot become Redeemed?
Yes and yes.
>>Secondly - So out of the three schools of necromatic thought... it seems fairly clear that the Philosophers of the Knife are intended to be the bulk of PCs just due to playability issues if nothing else and the other two paths are mostly there as lore coherency and "well if you REALLY want to go down that path...". Am I off base here?
I think it's not spoilering at this point that the "Necromancer Guild," as in the IC organization that the PCs join, is the Philosophers. How committed he is to the Great Work is his own business, beyond considerations about the hand that feeds him.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Yes and yes.
>>Secondly - So out of the three schools of necromatic thought... it seems fairly clear that the Philosophers of the Knife are intended to be the bulk of PCs just due to playability issues if nothing else and the other two paths are mostly there as lore coherency and "well if you REALLY want to go down that path...". Am I off base here?
I think it's not spoilering at this point that the "Necromancer Guild," as in the IC organization that the PCs join, is the Philosophers. How committed he is to the Great Work is his own business, beyond considerations about the hand that feeds him.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Why would hardcore perverse be unplayable? Self-serving, zombie-raising necromancers with no regard to morality...sound plenty fun and like something plenty of people will do. I do agree that most people aren't going to throw a sense of humanity to the wind, which will produce philosophers. But I'm sure the number that do will be a significant portion of overall necros.
And that prevents PC necromancers from taking on the perverse role because?
My understanding of it was that perversion had more to do with the mentality of the character in question than the mechanics of spamming Transcendance spells for training. That said, i imagine Armifer's post about joining the necromancer's guild being otherwise equivalent to becoming a philosopher probably means perversion either takes effort to achieve (meaning many players whose cahracters should fit the bill won't bother) or simply refers to major necromancers present in the game, ie lyras, hobglup and so on. While I'd like to be wrong about that, that was my interpretation of it. Personally, i would love to make a solid perverse necromancer. It'd be a decent break from my "probably should have been a paladin" barb.
My understanding of it was that perversion had more to do with the mentality of the character in question than the mechanics of spamming Transcendance spells for training. That said, i imagine Armifer's post about joining the necromancer's guild being otherwise equivalent to becoming a philosopher probably means perversion either takes effort to achieve (meaning many players whose cahracters should fit the bill won't bother) or simply refers to major necromancers present in the game, ie lyras, hobglup and so on. While I'd like to be wrong about that, that was my interpretation of it. Personally, i would love to make a solid perverse necromancer. It'd be a decent break from my "probably should have been a paladin" barb.
>>I think it's not spoilering at this point that the "Necromancer Guild," as in the IC organization that the PCs join, is the Philosophers. How committed he is to the Great Work is his own business, beyond considerations about the hand that feeds him.
Good to know. I'd had a fairly strong hunch that was the way things were going for awhile.
Though it does make me feel slightly disappointed that all three were sorta put out there on equal footing but aren't actually that much of a choice. Then again I may have just read too much into what was posted earlier and am just addicted to Sects (don't hurt me! Please! I haven't made a Sect joke in.. oh a month? Two?)
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
Good to know. I'd had a fairly strong hunch that was the way things were going for awhile.
Though it does make me feel slightly disappointed that all three were sorta put out there on equal footing but aren't actually that much of a choice. Then again I may have just read too much into what was posted earlier and am just addicted to Sects (don't hurt me! Please! I haven't made a Sect joke in.. oh a month? Two?)
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
It's better if you don't think of Perverse as its own sect with its own personally-conceived identity, but rather the category Necromancer who go "too far" get shunted into by their fellows (Philosophers, primarily). It's not meant to be something you strive for (ICly) but rather something that happens through your own apathy or malice.
Rev. Reene
You see Karosti's Favorite Malzard Miakainyuso, Prophet of the Ilithi Court, an Elothean Moon Mage.
Rev. Reene
You see Karosti's Favorite Malzard Miakainyuso, Prophet of the Ilithi Court, an Elothean Moon Mage.
The way I understand it, the Perverse are the people who want to play the usual DR Gargamel-style evil, the Philosophers are the smart necromancers that people playing like a Perverse will claim to be, and the Redeemed are basically there so Prydaen empath players can feel good about playing a necromancer if they want to.
>>It's not meant to be something you strive for (ICly) but rather something that happens through your own apathy or malice.
This is basically what I said.
Thus, players (meaning ooc) who want to throw morality and humanity to the wind might find perversity more fitting for their character. ICly, I agree. The perverse, it has been noted in previous statements have very little desire or even willingness to work with one another. They frequently battle one another for power.
Perverse isn't likely something the necros who fit the bill call themselves. I imagine its a societal label placed upon from the the outside. I doubt they would ever group themselves in any way beyond the simple fact that they all use the undead. Put simply, I imagine Lyras would agree that she is a necromancer, and that other perverse necromancers are, indeed, necromancers as well. But I imagine she wouldn't be willing to associate herself with any of them further than that, unless there were some very specific benefit worth more to her than suffering the indignity of it all.
This is basically what I said.
Thus, players (meaning ooc) who want to throw morality and humanity to the wind might find perversity more fitting for their character. ICly, I agree. The perverse, it has been noted in previous statements have very little desire or even willingness to work with one another. They frequently battle one another for power.
Perverse isn't likely something the necros who fit the bill call themselves. I imagine its a societal label placed upon from the the outside. I doubt they would ever group themselves in any way beyond the simple fact that they all use the undead. Put simply, I imagine Lyras would agree that she is a necromancer, and that other perverse necromancers are, indeed, necromancers as well. But I imagine she wouldn't be willing to associate herself with any of them further than that, unless there were some very specific benefit worth more to her than suffering the indignity of it all.
You can play a philosopher that is on the far end of the perversion spectrum. You can run around with your zombie and act like a badarse, killing people, striking fear in the hearts of many.
You will be a perverted necro for all intensive purposes.
And then you die. Many many times. Look at Lyras. She had GM magic hax and she lost. Do you really want to go down that path as a PC?
You will be a perverted necro for all intensive purposes.
And then you die. Many many times. Look at Lyras. She had GM magic hax and she lost. Do you really want to go down that path as a PC?
I for one hope the GMs are authorized to devise more 'creative' punishments than those handled by the system for overly blatant necromancer PCs.
Having a chance to walk if you neglect necrofavors would be nice too. Advanced guild and all that.
Laniea came through some massive doors.
Laniea appears to be aiming at Mesanna with her forester's crossbow.
You praise Laniea's efforts, supporting her with your approval.
Having a chance to walk if you neglect necrofavors would be nice too. Advanced guild and all that.
Laniea came through some massive doors.
Laniea appears to be aiming at Mesanna with her forester's crossbow.
You praise Laniea's efforts, supporting her with your approval.
That was an advanced, but optional, puzzle. Solving it or not solving wouldn't have influenced the plot, but it existed to let people figure out well ahead of reveals what was about to happen if they synthesized all the material.
Zamidren painted the signs specifically to stir up discussion of them, one which reached the far corners of the Provinces. They were a coded message that was not meant for you, but your discussion of them acted as a carrier wave for those who could understand it to take heed.
It appeared over two days, as two distinct phrases.
Failure, Crucible
Coagulation, Great Work.
"We have failed our crucible
We must gather to conduct the Great Work"
It was the call for the Philosophers to gather.
The Bardic visions were an unintentional side effect, which, if you look over the logs now, you might notice Zamidren acted genuinely surprised by. They were not of a specific person, but rather a montage of scenes that each reflected the true meaning of the symbol within Zamidren's phrase. Failure showed the moral, personal failings of everyone involved -- Coagulation showed a Necromancer helping another Necromancer, etc.
It was 80% a symbolic vision illustrating Zamidren's true intent, 20% the universe making its own commentary on it.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Zamidren painted the signs specifically to stir up discussion of them, one which reached the far corners of the Provinces. They were a coded message that was not meant for you, but your discussion of them acted as a carrier wave for those who could understand it to take heed.
It appeared over two days, as two distinct phrases.
Failure, Crucible
Coagulation, Great Work.
"We have failed our crucible
We must gather to conduct the Great Work"
It was the call for the Philosophers to gather.
The Bardic visions were an unintentional side effect, which, if you look over the logs now, you might notice Zamidren acted genuinely surprised by. They were not of a specific person, but rather a montage of scenes that each reflected the true meaning of the symbol within Zamidren's phrase. Failure showed the moral, personal failings of everyone involved -- Coagulation showed a Necromancer helping another Necromancer, etc.
It was 80% a symbolic vision illustrating Zamidren's true intent, 20% the universe making its own commentary on it.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
