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With the up coming changes, it be cool to have a defile ritual.
So those that are perverse can defile alters or maybe just certain alters? Forcing the clerics to do cleric stuff to use it again.
I could see two possibilities, with a "demonic" flag on either that can be set to true/false.
1) Defile the altar on a purely social level, essentially as a terrorist tactic. There's no magical/spiritual component here, it's merely an assault on people's beliefs. At this level, it'd be a purely social option with possible ties to Social Outrage.
2) Defile the altar on a magical/spiritual level, essentially as a means to disrupt people's ability to commune or otherwise use the altar to connect with the Immortals. At this level, it'd be a mystical option with possible ties to Divine Outrage.
Of course, there could also be the option to do both at once. If you're doing it in the name of some demon or otherworldly being or other, then set the Demonic/Perverse flag to True and tack on whatever other consequences this implies.
1) Defile the altar on a purely social level, essentially as a terrorist tactic. There's no magical/spiritual component here, it's merely an assault on people's beliefs. At this level, it'd be a purely social option with possible ties to Social Outrage.
2) Defile the altar on a magical/spiritual level, essentially as a means to disrupt people's ability to commune or otherwise use the altar to connect with the Immortals. At this level, it'd be a mystical option with possible ties to Divine Outrage.
Of course, there could also be the option to do both at once. If you're doing it in the name of some demon or otherworldly being or other, then set the Demonic/Perverse flag to True and tack on whatever other consequences this implies.
For clarity's sake, the first option I suggested essentially amounts to an act of sacrilegious vandalism. Stirring the pot without actually doing anything mystical. Perhaps the goal is just to undermine the authority of the church, or scare people, or whatever. Still seems like a pretty interesting thing to do, imo.
>>I wouldn't even see this as Perverse only!
I'd only see it as Perverse because it leans toward making a scene when your typical Philosopher wants to remain low-key.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I'd only see it as Perverse because it leans toward making a scene when your typical Philosopher wants to remain low-key.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>I'd only see it as Perverse because it leans toward making a scene when your typical Philosopher wants to remain low-key.
I'd consider the 'remain low-key' aspect of things to be something that applies more to 'Necromancers starting down the path'. Transcendental Necromancers or Liches may not really care about remaining low-key, and have bigger fish to fry. It may be extremely beneficial to a Philosopher muck up an Immortals connection to an altar, or muck up some holy types ability to use one. Shrug.
>>Transcendental Necromancers or Liches may not really care about remaining low-key, and have bigger fish to fry.
Aren't Liches are Perverse by default?
IMO Transcendental Necromancers are definitely interested in staying under the radar and not making a public (perverse) scene.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Aren't Liches are Perverse by default?
IMO Transcendental Necromancers are definitely interested in staying under the radar and not making a public (perverse) scene.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
> I wouldn't even see this as Perverse only! Though I suppose it depends on whether the ritual is disrupting the altars connection to the Immortals OR subverting it in the name of a demon.
A few ideas based on skill:
1. Slightly defile. The altar has to be de-cursed or rituals will drain devotion rather than than give it. Low level clerics can decurse.
2. Partial defile. If a cleric tries to kiss or clean it then they lose devotion rather than gaining it. They have to uncurse it first.
3. Severe defile. Requires a high level cleric to uncurse. Necros can sacrifice something on the altar for some benefit.
4. Defile it and sacrifice something to summon a demon. It tries to eat the next cleric that shows up. Level based on the necro's thanatology.
Clerics and paladins see visions if they're aligned to the god of an altar currently being defiled. Global devotion hit (moderate) if the devile succeeds? Individual devotion gain (very high) if the cleric kills the necromancer defiling it or restores the altar. No one can turn in favors for a god if all of their altars are currently defiled.
>Aren't Liches are Perverse by default?
Disclaimer: From what I know of the lore and have gathered therein. I could be totes wrong.
All Necromancers are currently Philosophers (with few exceptions due to RP choices in prime). All Transcendental Necromancers are Philosophers and all Liches are Perverse, but not all Philosophers are Transcendental, and not all Perverse are Liches. I think? So, yes, what you said. My point though is that Philosophers or Transcendental Necromancers may not care about hiding who/what they are. I don't think Xerasyth, for example, is particularly disguise happy, though he is reclusive.
>SHIFT3 A few ideas based on skill:
I like the idea of tying Necromancers and Clerics/Paladins to a sort of 'capture the flag' styled RP heavy with some mechanics in place shtick surrounding altars, but I dislike the idea of this simply being 'flipping the switch between HLCs and no one else can participate'. I would further like to see DO expanded to more than just 'easily ignored with no real ramifications unless you do something really wrong, and then suddenly SPLAT'.
>>All Necromancers are currently Philosophers (with few exceptions due to RP choices in prime)
For players, yeah. They could have arguably called it the Philosopher's Guild and not been off-base.
>>All Transcendental Necromancers are Philosophers
I don't think this is necessarily the case, because becoming transcendent isn't explicitly a goal of just Philosophers.
>>all Liches are Perverse
This is the case, because it's more a view of how Philosophers (and society!) view the actions of a Lich.
>>but not all Philosophers are Transcendental
This is correct.
>>not all Perverse are Liches
Also correct!
>>My point though is that Philosophers or Transcendental Necromancers may not care about hiding who/what they are.
To be fair, I think there's more nuance to Perverse than "in the open" or "not comfortable about it"
>>Actually, I have already thought of exceptions to this [liches are perverse] rule, so... Feh.
It's possible you're thinking of others, but I wouldn't count things like Lady P as a "lich" anymore, as much as an IC misunderstanding of the nuances between what Necromancers are/aren't.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
For players, yeah. They could have arguably called it the Philosopher's Guild and not been off-base.
>>All Transcendental Necromancers are Philosophers
I don't think this is necessarily the case, because becoming transcendent isn't explicitly a goal of just Philosophers.
>>all Liches are Perverse
This is the case, because it's more a view of how Philosophers (and society!) view the actions of a Lich.
>>but not all Philosophers are Transcendental
This is correct.
>>not all Perverse are Liches
Also correct!
>>My point though is that Philosophers or Transcendental Necromancers may not care about hiding who/what they are.
To be fair, I think there's more nuance to Perverse than "in the open" or "not comfortable about it"
>>Actually, I have already thought of exceptions to this [liches are perverse] rule, so... Feh.
It's possible you're thinking of others, but I wouldn't count things like Lady P as a "lich" anymore, as much as an IC misunderstanding of the nuances between what Necromancers are/aren't.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
This may be spoilery, so, I hope it isn't, and again, disclaimer that it's my understanding of the lore, and may be wrong -
>I don't think this is necessarily the case, because becoming transcendent isn't explicitly a goal of just Philosophers.
I don't think we know of Liches achieving Transcendence, because as I understand it, the two are mutually exclusive. Immortality, yes, but definitely not Transcendence.
>all Liches are Perverse
>>This is the case, because it's more a view of how Philosophers (and society!) view the actions of a Lich.
This will of course depend on some significant upcoming reveals, but I am under the impression that one does not become a Lich without either some form of outside aid, or by committing some actions, either of which would qualify one as Perverse.
>My point though is that Philosophers or Transcendental Necromancers may not care about hiding who/what they are.
>>To be fair, I think there's more nuance to Perverse than "in the open" or "not comfortable about it"
Can you expand on this, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I wasn't suggesting that it's a binary - I could easily envision a Lich not putting up a neon sign and sending ravens to the local Temple, but meant more that the whole notion of avoiding any detection not being the number one priority of all Necromancers, at least with respect to defiling the altars of the immortals.
>Actually, I have already thought of exceptions to this [liches are perverse] rule, so... Feh.
>>It's possible you're thinking of others, but I wouldn't count things like Lady P as a "lich" anymore, as much as an IC misunderstanding of the nuances between what Necromancers are/aren't.
I was thinking of Lady P - I thought she was either a Risen so well crafted as to not know that she was a Risen (which is a whole mess of matters to unpack!) or a Lich that did not remember her actions which rendered her a Lich (different angle, same mess!). Personally, sans whatever reveals are upcoming regarding the processes of both, I feel the concept of Risen and Lichdom are fairly similar in some ways, namely, both represent the replacement of the self with the will of the creator.
In the case of a Risen, the Necromancer is supplanting their will over their creation, which depending on how well crafted is either a nearly (or totally?) Turing Complete machination of flesh.
In the case of a Lich, the Necromancer is giving up their soul/spirit (which?) to permanently possess their reanimated corpse, possibly with some demon oomph behind it, and become either a nearly (or totally?) Turing Complete machination of flesh.
In the case of THE OTHER THING I WAS THINKING OF, Moon Mages get up to some weird stuff, and we don't really know specifics of how that PARTICULARLY CRAZY WEIRD THING works.
Theory of mind and AI musings and handwaves aside, of course.
>I don't think this is necessarily the case, because becoming transcendent isn't explicitly a goal of just Philosophers.
I don't think we know of Liches achieving Transcendence, because as I understand it, the two are mutually exclusive. Immortality, yes, but definitely not Transcendence.
>all Liches are Perverse
>>This is the case, because it's more a view of how Philosophers (and society!) view the actions of a Lich.
This will of course depend on some significant upcoming reveals, but I am under the impression that one does not become a Lich without either some form of outside aid, or by committing some actions, either of which would qualify one as Perverse.
>My point though is that Philosophers or Transcendental Necromancers may not care about hiding who/what they are.
>>To be fair, I think there's more nuance to Perverse than "in the open" or "not comfortable about it"
Can you expand on this, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I wasn't suggesting that it's a binary - I could easily envision a Lich not putting up a neon sign and sending ravens to the local Temple, but meant more that the whole notion of avoiding any detection not being the number one priority of all Necromancers, at least with respect to defiling the altars of the immortals.
>Actually, I have already thought of exceptions to this [liches are perverse] rule, so... Feh.
>>It's possible you're thinking of others, but I wouldn't count things like Lady P as a "lich" anymore, as much as an IC misunderstanding of the nuances between what Necromancers are/aren't.
I was thinking of Lady P - I thought she was either a Risen so well crafted as to not know that she was a Risen (which is a whole mess of matters to unpack!) or a Lich that did not remember her actions which rendered her a Lich (different angle, same mess!). Personally, sans whatever reveals are upcoming regarding the processes of both, I feel the concept of Risen and Lichdom are fairly similar in some ways, namely, both represent the replacement of the self with the will of the creator.
In the case of a Risen, the Necromancer is supplanting their will over their creation, which depending on how well crafted is either a nearly (or totally?) Turing Complete machination of flesh.
In the case of a Lich, the Necromancer is giving up their soul/spirit (which?) to permanently possess their reanimated corpse, possibly with some demon oomph behind it, and become either a nearly (or totally?) Turing Complete machination of flesh.
In the case of THE OTHER THING I WAS THINKING OF, Moon Mages get up to some weird stuff, and we don't really know specifics of how that PARTICULARLY CRAZY WEIRD THING works.
Theory of mind and AI musings and handwaves aside, of course.
> I like the idea of tying Necromancers and Clerics/Paladins to a sort of 'capture the flag' styled RP heavy with some mechanics in place shtick surrounding altars, but I dislike the idea of this simply being 'flipping the switch between HLCs and no one else can participate'. I would further like to see DO expanded to more than just 'easily ignored with no real ramifications unless you do something really wrong, and then suddenly SPLAT'.
That's a good point. Maybe let the demon flex, but design it to expect a party?
Personally, I feel any philosopher that is taking his time to defile an altar of the Immortals has wandered away from the so called "Ethical Framework" that the Philosophy claims to hold.
If something like this is ever released, I certainly wouldnt want it to be barred from any type of necromancer. Feel free to graffiti "Urrem'tier Stinks" on his altars all you want, just be aware that its not an action that fits the idea of the Philosophy. Its also something I expect will earn you a rather intense amount of Divine Outrage, its an act a smart necromancer might not want to do unless they have some sort of protection against being squished like a bug.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
If something like this is ever released, I certainly wouldnt want it to be barred from any type of necromancer. Feel free to graffiti "Urrem'tier Stinks" on his altars all you want, just be aware that its not an action that fits the idea of the Philosophy. Its also something I expect will earn you a rather intense amount of Divine Outrage, its an act a smart necromancer might not want to do unless they have some sort of protection against being squished like a bug.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I feel that there's a bit of a misconception, perhaps, around the difference in philosophers and perverse. It does not hinge on 'who is meaner'. If the great work requires chunks of immortal essence, then you, a philosopher, better figure out a way of wresting that essence from their grip.
>It does not hinge on 'who is meaner'.
We agree. The Philosophy is about creating a refined necromancy that allows for transcendence and ultimately puts an end to the natural law that all that live must die. Its also about accepting the responsibility for what you must do and become to bring that Work to completion. That said, there has been no proof that the necromantic equivalent of farting on an altar and flipping the bird to the immortals does anything to further that goal. Such petty actions do align more with using necromancy to further personal goals of power or vengeance, however. And that typically is considered the realm of perversity.
Most of the second generation consider any dealing with the immortals as something to be avoided just as much as dealing with demons.
Again, I do like the idea and am fine in allowing anyone to do it as long as they realize its not really helping them be a Philosopher.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
We agree. The Philosophy is about creating a refined necromancy that allows for transcendence and ultimately puts an end to the natural law that all that live must die. Its also about accepting the responsibility for what you must do and become to bring that Work to completion. That said, there has been no proof that the necromantic equivalent of farting on an altar and flipping the bird to the immortals does anything to further that goal. Such petty actions do align more with using necromancy to further personal goals of power or vengeance, however. And that typically is considered the realm of perversity.
Most of the second generation consider any dealing with the immortals as something to be avoided just as much as dealing with demons.
Again, I do like the idea and am fine in allowing anyone to do it as long as they realize its not really helping them be a Philosopher.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
>>I don't think we know of Liches achieving Transcendence, because as I understand it, the two are mutually exclusive. Immortality, yes, but definitely not Transcendence.
I meant more that becoming transcendent isn't explicitly a goal of only philosophers. In other words, there may be non-Philosopher Necromancers who may have that goal.
>>Can you expand on this, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I wasn't suggesting that it's a binary - I could easily envision a Lich not putting up a neon sign and sending ravens to the local Temple, but meant more that the whole notion of avoiding any detection not being the number one priority of all Necromancers, at least with respect to defiling the altars of the immortals.
I feel there's more to being Perverse than "is okay marketing that they're a Necromancer". So "hiding who/what they are" isn't the be-all-end-all of Perverse, roleplay-wise.
In other words, Lord J was Perverse way before he started Godzilla-ing through Crossing. From the looks of things, storyline-wise, demonic alignment may eventually become (or already is) a facet of Perversion.
>>I was thinking of Lady P
IMO I'd chalk Lady P up to "a GM a long time ago before there was more explicit rules/lore made a GMNPC they said was a Lich" more than an actual metric to judge how a Lich works (or doesn't work). I assume she'll either be retconned as not-a-lich ("you folks didn't know what she was so your own fears labeled her") or more-lichy-than-assumed ("You folks didn't realize she was a worshiper of the demon Q, who is able to hide the reality of the monsters they shape"), one of your examples, or just completely disregarded.
>>In the case of THE OTHER THING I WAS THINKING OF, Moon Mages get up to some weird stuff, and we don't really know specifics of how that PARTICULARLY CRAZY WEIRD THING works.
I'm definitely looking forward to the day Y'Shai creation is explained more in lore.
>>I feel that there's a bit of a misconception, perhaps, around the difference in philosophers and perverse. It does not hinge on 'who is meaner'. If the great work requires chunks of immortal essence, then you, a philosopher, better figure out a way of wresting that essence from their grip.
IMO, according to Philosophers the notion of Perverse just means being a reckless idiot who, at one point, will most likely trade one set of shackles for another.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I meant more that becoming transcendent isn't explicitly a goal of only philosophers. In other words, there may be non-Philosopher Necromancers who may have that goal.
>>Can you expand on this, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I wasn't suggesting that it's a binary - I could easily envision a Lich not putting up a neon sign and sending ravens to the local Temple, but meant more that the whole notion of avoiding any detection not being the number one priority of all Necromancers, at least with respect to defiling the altars of the immortals.
I feel there's more to being Perverse than "is okay marketing that they're a Necromancer". So "hiding who/what they are" isn't the be-all-end-all of Perverse, roleplay-wise.
In other words, Lord J was Perverse way before he started Godzilla-ing through Crossing. From the looks of things, storyline-wise, demonic alignment may eventually become (or already is) a facet of Perversion.
>>I was thinking of Lady P
IMO I'd chalk Lady P up to "a GM a long time ago before there was more explicit rules/lore made a GMNPC they said was a Lich" more than an actual metric to judge how a Lich works (or doesn't work). I assume she'll either be retconned as not-a-lich ("you folks didn't know what she was so your own fears labeled her") or more-lichy-than-assumed ("You folks didn't realize she was a worshiper of the demon Q, who is able to hide the reality of the monsters they shape"), one of your examples, or just completely disregarded.
>>In the case of THE OTHER THING I WAS THINKING OF, Moon Mages get up to some weird stuff, and we don't really know specifics of how that PARTICULARLY CRAZY WEIRD THING works.
I'm definitely looking forward to the day Y'Shai creation is explained more in lore.
>>I feel that there's a bit of a misconception, perhaps, around the difference in philosophers and perverse. It does not hinge on 'who is meaner'. If the great work requires chunks of immortal essence, then you, a philosopher, better figure out a way of wresting that essence from their grip.
IMO, according to Philosophers the notion of Perverse just means being a reckless idiot who, at one point, will most likely trade one set of shackles for another.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
There's a good argument to be made that the more people turn from the Immortals, the easier it is to be a Philosopher (less persecution.) The easier it is to be a Philosopher, the easier it is to recruit more Philosophers. The more Philosophers there are, the more likely the Great Work is to be completed.
Defiling altars to the Immortals ought to be done from the perspective of turning mortals away from "slavery" to the Immortals. From this perspective, there are few things that could fit better into the ethos of Philosophers.
Defiling altars to the Immortals ought to be done from the perspective of turning mortals away from "slavery" to the Immortals. From this perspective, there are few things that could fit better into the ethos of Philosophers.
>Defiling altars to the Immortals ought to be done from the perspective of turning mortals away from "slavery" to the Immortals. From this perspective, there are few things that could fit better into the ethos of Philosophers.
Thinking of it Lore wise, the majority of the Elanthian population will probably never visit any altar of the immortals, and the fact that an altar was defiled will likely have no measurable effect on farmer Joe's faith in Hodierna. As such, defiling an altar doesnt really accomplish anything noteworthy aside from annoying the very entities that have the an itchy trigger finger and the nuclear codes to your physical destruction, or rousing the local Clergy into a murderous rage that would wind up counter intuitive the goal of making the Philosophy more acceptable in the eyes of other mortals.
>Defiling altars to the Immortals ought to be done from the perspective of turning mortals away from "slavery" to the Immortals. From this perspective, there are few things that could fit better into the ethos of Philosophers.
We are probably going to have to agree to disagree here. Defiling an altar is likely nothing more than an act of simple vandalism against someone who has more than enough power to obliterate you. There is probably a very good reason there are no stories of Philosophers successfully rendering altars useless in lore.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Thinking of it Lore wise, the majority of the Elanthian population will probably never visit any altar of the immortals, and the fact that an altar was defiled will likely have no measurable effect on farmer Joe's faith in Hodierna. As such, defiling an altar doesnt really accomplish anything noteworthy aside from annoying the very entities that have the an itchy trigger finger and the nuclear codes to your physical destruction, or rousing the local Clergy into a murderous rage that would wind up counter intuitive the goal of making the Philosophy more acceptable in the eyes of other mortals.
>Defiling altars to the Immortals ought to be done from the perspective of turning mortals away from "slavery" to the Immortals. From this perspective, there are few things that could fit better into the ethos of Philosophers.
We are probably going to have to agree to disagree here. Defiling an altar is likely nothing more than an act of simple vandalism against someone who has more than enough power to obliterate you. There is probably a very good reason there are no stories of Philosophers successfully rendering altars useless in lore.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I'm not sure what lore you're talking about. In the game I play, every little backwater town has at least a small shrine to some immortal or other, and there are a ton scattered around the wilderness, too. The idea that very few of the people who live in these towns would visit these plays just makes no sense to me. Let alone all the people who live in the big cities like Crossing. You're saying almost none of them would visit the high temple? And that's not even considering all of the sacred religious holidays and celebrations.
The point of the Great Work is to free the mortal races from the Immortals (without turning to other arguably even worse types of unfathomably powerful beings.) This can't really be done if people are insistent on worshiping them, now can it? Think of it as a form of propaganda.
I'll also note that I've never heard of a case of the Immortals striking a person down for desecrating an altar. Perhaps they don't mind all that much. It's not like vandalizing an altar threatens the fabric of reality, is it?
The point of the Great Work is to free the mortal races from the Immortals (without turning to other arguably even worse types of unfathomably powerful beings.) This can't really be done if people are insistent on worshiping them, now can it? Think of it as a form of propaganda.
I'll also note that I've never heard of a case of the Immortals striking a person down for desecrating an altar. Perhaps they don't mind all that much. It's not like vandalizing an altar threatens the fabric of reality, is it?
>The point of the Great Work is to free the mortal races from the Immortals (without turning to other arguably even worse types of unfathomably powerful beings.) This can't really be done if people are insistent on worshiping them, now can it? Think of it as a form of propaganda.
Ok, so this is the source of our disagreement. Nature is the enemy, with the law that everything that lives has to at some point die. The Immortals are certainly an obstacle to the Great work, but overthrowing them is not the true goal.
>I'll also note that I've never heard of a case of the Immortals striking a person down for desecrating an altar. Perhaps they don't mind all that much. It's not like vandalizing an altar threatens the fabric of reality, is it?
Case One: Defiling an altar hurts the Immortals, this would obviously earn you a large amount of DO and probably get you killed. Case Two: They dont care, so why are you doing it?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Ok, so this is the source of our disagreement. Nature is the enemy, with the law that everything that lives has to at some point die. The Immortals are certainly an obstacle to the Great work, but overthrowing them is not the true goal.
>I'll also note that I've never heard of a case of the Immortals striking a person down for desecrating an altar. Perhaps they don't mind all that much. It's not like vandalizing an altar threatens the fabric of reality, is it?
Case One: Defiling an altar hurts the Immortals, this would obviously earn you a large amount of DO and probably get you killed. Case Two: They dont care, so why are you doing it?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
As I understand the lore, the Immortals are the ones who determine natural law in this plane of existence. Mortals die because the Immortals decreed it must be so.
Defiling altars wouldn't be so much about pissing the Immortals off as it is about undermining common people's faith in them. Whether the Immortals care about their altars isn't the question. It's whether the mortals care about their altars that matters. The Immortals don't need mortals (as fun and diverting as we may sometimes be.)
It's also worth noting, to the point where the common folk do or do not revere the immortals/visit altars, that this is the same world where once a year Asketi wholesale slaughters the village that has revered her the least. I'd say the common folk have very good reasons to visit shrines, temples, and altars.
Defiling altars wouldn't be so much about pissing the Immortals off as it is about undermining common people's faith in them. Whether the Immortals care about their altars isn't the question. It's whether the mortals care about their altars that matters. The Immortals don't need mortals (as fun and diverting as we may sometimes be.)
It's also worth noting, to the point where the common folk do or do not revere the immortals/visit altars, that this is the same world where once a year Asketi wholesale slaughters the village that has revered her the least. I'd say the common folk have very good reasons to visit shrines, temples, and altars.
>As I understand the lore, the Immortals are the ones who determine natural law in this plane of existence. Mortals die because the Immortals decreed it must be so.
While I wont quote it completely here, the book The Great Work in the P1 library has a paragraph that starts with 'A lot of talk goes toward the Immortals...' and is what I am basing my arguments on.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
While I wont quote it completely here, the book The Great Work in the P1 library has a paragraph that starts with 'A lot of talk goes toward the Immortals...' and is what I am basing my arguments on.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Sorry for the double post, hit post too soon.
>Defiling altars wouldn't be so much about pissing the Immortals off as it is about undermining common people's faith in them.
I have a hard time believing this will happen. I just dont see farmer Joe saying, "Well gosh darnt, thems wily necropunks went an broke our place of worship. Lookn like I needs to find the closest cult of murders to join em, maybe I will see Great Aunt Edna's animated corpse if I do."
IMO a more likely event would have the farmer informing the local clergy, which would repair the altar and then start the cycle of BBQs we are a little more accustomed to seeing. We might be able to go back and forth fixing and breaking an altar, but in the end its a losing battle because the Immortals and the Temple's followers far outnumber us.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
>Defiling altars wouldn't be so much about pissing the Immortals off as it is about undermining common people's faith in them.
I have a hard time believing this will happen. I just dont see farmer Joe saying, "Well gosh darnt, thems wily necropunks went an broke our place of worship. Lookn like I needs to find the closest cult of murders to join em, maybe I will see Great Aunt Edna's animated corpse if I do."
IMO a more likely event would have the farmer informing the local clergy, which would repair the altar and then start the cycle of BBQs we are a little more accustomed to seeing. We might be able to go back and forth fixing and breaking an altar, but in the end its a losing battle because the Immortals and the Temple's followers far outnumber us.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
>I feel there's more to being Perverse than "is okay marketing that they're a Necromancer". So "hiding who/what they are" isn't the be-all-end-all of Perverse, roleplay-wise.
Oh, of course - I wasn't suggesting that being Perverse meant embracing as your character MO the paradigm of "Teehee, I'm SO evil and I just don't care!"
>Lady P Retconned...
Sure, also possible!
>IMO, according to Philosophers the notion of Perverse just means being a reckless idiot who, at one point, will most likely trade one set of shackles for another.
I think that's a fair simplification/summary, but the specific nuance is fairly important.
>ALGOTHI: Thinking of it Lore wise, the majority of the Elanthian population will probably never visit any altar of the immortals, and the fact that an altar was defiled will likely have no measurable effect on farmer Joe's faith in Hodierna.
To the first, I don't think this is true at all. The Temple and various altars seem to represent a pretty central part of life in Elanthia, and that other cultures have brought their own Gods with them shows how important faith in these beings (not just the 13) is. Given the reality of cosmic conflict, worship and faith are not merely philosophical matters in this universe.
>STELLARMAGUS: As I understand the lore, the Immortals are the ones who determine natural law in this plane of existence. Mortals die because the Immortals decreed it must be so.
Well, that's what the Immortals will claim anyway.
>Defiling altars wouldn't be so much about pissing the Immortals off as it is about undermining common people's faith in them. Whether the Immortals care about their altars isn't the question. It's whether the mortals care about their altars that matters. The Immortals don't need mortals (as fun and diverting as we may sometimes be.)
It's also about hindering Holy Magic users connection to the Immortals, weakening both. It's also feasibly about hampering the Immortals capacity to utilize mortals as the soul munching machine they seem to.
>I have a hard time believing this will happen. I just dont see farmer Joe saying, "Well gosh darnt, thems wily necropunks went an broke our place of worship. Lookn like I needs to find the closest cult of murders to join em, maybe I will see Great Aunt Edna's animated corpse if I do."
Nono, but there's reason to believe, perhaps, that farmer Joe continuing to pray at Hodierna's altar and receiving no sense of awe, no tingle, no visions or grace or help or feeling of Hodierna's influence, may begin to think that Hodierna isn't listening, and choose to stop praying to Hodierna for it.
>Nono, but there's reason to believe, perhaps, that farmer Joe continuing to pray at Hodierna's altar and receiving no sense of awe, no tingle, no visions or grace or help or feeling of Hodierna's influence, may begin to think that Hodierna isn't listening, and choose to stop praying to Hodierna for it.
Lets assume that a broken altar will cause Farmer Joe to have a crisis of faith. What will he think if his crops wither? Does his lack of faith stop his soul from going to the Immortals? Does he continue to ignore his faith when he see or hears about what the Dark Aspects do when they are not revered enough?
I dont think Farmer Joe worships Hodierna because he feels tingly when he prays, I think he worships her because he needs his crops to grow and fears what would happen when he doesnt pray to her. This is because the Temple has him convinced he needs his Faith, perhaps rightfully so. Defiling his local altar isnt going to make him question his faith, its going to make him angry at those that put his farm in jeopardy and its going to make him rouse his pitchfork wielding friends to find the villain that did it.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Lets assume that a broken altar will cause Farmer Joe to have a crisis of faith. What will he think if his crops wither? Does his lack of faith stop his soul from going to the Immortals? Does he continue to ignore his faith when he see or hears about what the Dark Aspects do when they are not revered enough?
I dont think Farmer Joe worships Hodierna because he feels tingly when he prays, I think he worships her because he needs his crops to grow and fears what would happen when he doesnt pray to her. This is because the Temple has him convinced he needs his Faith, perhaps rightfully so. Defiling his local altar isnt going to make him question his faith, its going to make him angry at those that put his farm in jeopardy and its going to make him rouse his pitchfork wielding friends to find the villain that did it.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
>Lets assume that a broken altar will cause Farmer Joe to have a crisis of faith. What will he think if his crops wither? Does his lack of faith stop his soul from going to the Immortals? Does he continue to ignore his faith when he see or hears about what the Dark Aspects do when they are not revered enough?
I don't think anything really different will happen to his soul, but I think his lack of faith may result in him praying less, devoting less. It's also possible you're worrying too much about what Farmer Joe will think, and worrying too little about what Hodierna will think. The Immortals are seemingly getting something from all that prayer and devotion and faith. It is perhaps one of the reasons they fear/abhor Necromancers creating life, or even facsimiles of it, so intensely. It is also perhaps one of the reasons to wonder why at least one Demon is hanging out content to not rampage - maybe interjecting on the behalf of some mortals who have died for scraps of soul is worth not burning it all down, because mortals seem to proffer up a lot of soul.
>I dont think Farmer Joe worships Hodierna because he feels tingly when he prays, I think he worships her because he needs his crops to grow and fears what would happen when he doesnt pray to her. This is because the Temple has him convinced he needs his Faith, perhaps rightfully so. Defiling his local altar isnt going to make him question his faith, its going to make him angry at those that put his farm in jeopardy and its going to make him rouse his pitchfork wielding friends to find the villain that did it.
I could be getting my wires crossed and mincing lore and opinion and other novels or thinking too much as an adventurer and not about the citizenry, but I am under the impression that 'faith' in Elanthia is NOT a philosophical matter. While the average citizen may not have much experience with demons and planar incursions, the Temple is KEENLY aware of them, and has made it explicitly clear to the populace that prayer is not simply a matter of healthier crops and babies and household crafts, but actually factually the thing that keeps Cthonic horrors from invading. Historically speaking, this plane is a battleground, and even Farmer Joe probably knows enough about the horrors that follow when the Immortals aren't prayed too enough.
I know this line is distinctly about those who have access to libraries and can piece things together, but I thought it also quite telling -
"Sometimes people ask how the Temple manages to keep so zealous years after the Lyras incident. To someone who understand the Plane of Abiding is under siege, it's more a question of whether they're zealous enough."
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Post:Demons_%26_the_Divine_-_04/04/2015_-_09:46
>>Nono, but there's reason to believe, perhaps, that farmer Joe continuing to pray at Hodierna's altar and receiving no sense of awe, no tingle, no visions or grace or help or feeling of Hodierna's influence, may begin to think that Hodierna isn't listening, and choose to stop praying to Hodierna for it.
Keep in mind divine acts like visions, favors, etc, aren't going to happen to farmer bob if you pour goat blood on an altar or not.
Nothing wrong with wanting to defile altars as a necro, but seeing that as a smart move is about the same as throwing rocks at Maelshyve's prison.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Keep in mind divine acts like visions, favors, etc, aren't going to happen to farmer bob if you pour goat blood on an altar or not.
Nothing wrong with wanting to defile altars as a necro, but seeing that as a smart move is about the same as throwing rocks at Maelshyve's prison.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Again, personal impressions, could be way off -
>Keep in mind divine acts like visions, favors, etc, aren't going to happen to farmer bob if you pour goat blood on an altar or not.
What was the consensus on how the Mana Storm following Lyras' death affected the citizenry? I don't think that Farmer Joe understands the Immortals or Demons or the Planes as well as a Cleric/Paladin/Warrior Mage/Moonie, by ANY stretch of the mind, but I also don't think that religion in Elanthia is anything like religion on Earth. The average person in Elanthia has exposure/experience with the Immortals in a way that is not academic in nature. Immortal worship in Elanthia is not like going to Church, it's more like... going to the zoo?
And I mean this in the context of religion on Earth is a matter of faith, and 'faith' means 'trusting that God exists'. Religion on Elanthia is a matter of faith, and 'faith' means 'slipping a bit of foodstuff into the lions pen, because that lion needs to eat and won't eat you if you slip it some food'. The analogy falls apart in a few ways, but, still.
>Keep in mind divine acts like visions, favors, etc, aren't going to happen to farmer bob if you pour goat blood on an altar or not.
What was the consensus on how the Mana Storm following Lyras' death affected the citizenry? I don't think that Farmer Joe understands the Immortals or Demons or the Planes as well as a Cleric/Paladin/Warrior Mage/Moonie, by ANY stretch of the mind, but I also don't think that religion in Elanthia is anything like religion on Earth. The average person in Elanthia has exposure/experience with the Immortals in a way that is not academic in nature. Immortal worship in Elanthia is not like going to Church, it's more like... going to the zoo?
And I mean this in the context of religion on Earth is a matter of faith, and 'faith' means 'trusting that God exists'. Religion on Elanthia is a matter of faith, and 'faith' means 'slipping a bit of foodstuff into the lions pen, because that lion needs to eat and won't eat you if you slip it some food'. The analogy falls apart in a few ways, but, still.
>>What was the consensus on how the Mana Storm following Lyras' death affected the citizenry?
They were too eaten by zombies to care.
>>The average person in Elanthia has exposure/experience with the Immortals in a way that is not academic in nature.
I don't think the average person has exposure to the Immortals in any notable way; similar to how they're affected by kings and queens in some way, but it isn't like they have any concept of a relationship with royalty.
"Why are the storms bad this season?" "Must be Drogor."
"Why are the roads so rough this season?" "Must be Belirendrick."
>>Religion on Elanthia is a matter of faith, and 'faith' means 'slipping a bit of foodstuff into the lions pen, because that lion needs to eat and won't eat you if you slip it some food'.
As much as I enjoy the analogy, I don't think anything the unwashed masses do have much of an impact on the Immortals, including offerings. There's probably some humor in the fact that Immortals are more interested in Necromancers than they are the general population.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
They were too eaten by zombies to care.
>>The average person in Elanthia has exposure/experience with the Immortals in a way that is not academic in nature.
I don't think the average person has exposure to the Immortals in any notable way; similar to how they're affected by kings and queens in some way, but it isn't like they have any concept of a relationship with royalty.
"Why are the storms bad this season?" "Must be Drogor."
"Why are the roads so rough this season?" "Must be Belirendrick."
>>Religion on Elanthia is a matter of faith, and 'faith' means 'slipping a bit of foodstuff into the lions pen, because that lion needs to eat and won't eat you if you slip it some food'.
As much as I enjoy the analogy, I don't think anything the unwashed masses do have much of an impact on the Immortals, including offerings. There's probably some humor in the fact that Immortals are more interested in Necromancers than they are the general population.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
