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WARNING The below post was not written with any sort of sarcasm, venom, or an attempt to be derogitory in any way. It's an attempt to discuss my own personal frustration playing a Paladin over the years, with some small attempts at humor. Not everyone who plays a Paladin has these same thoughts, these are MY PERSONAL feelings on the manner. If you're soft skinned, or still riled up over the TM changes, weather your GM, Player, or whoever, don't read it. I have 0 interest in getting into a guild vs guild debate, and won't do it, we all know where game mechanics stand and what guilds are good at what. If you are the kind of person to take everything you read personally, pick up a novel and read that instead, don't read this.
The definition of a Paladin is commonly referred as a defender of the weak, and a champion of light and/or justice. Based upon this common definition is why I chose to become a Paladin.
Once upon a time in Plat, we had an influx of several players that would script their way up to 50+ in a relatively short amount of time, before these characters hit thier magic 50 mark they were relatively nice characters, very much "good guys". Once they got some skills under their belts they suddenly became "evil" picking on anyone who dared glance at them, and hiding behind the all powerful "roleplay" banner, this was some of my inspiration for playing a Paladin again in Plat. I wanted to play that champion of good, someone who would do something about these blatant bullies. Trust me there are a large number of higher circle good guys who could do something, but choose not too, that is their choice.
Thankfully 99% of these "bad guy" players have all gone the way of the dinosaur which is all too common, but just like all the other instances of the game we get our share of colorful personalities who seem like the one enjoyment they get in the game is to make other peoples lives as difficult as humanly possible.
When I started as a Paladin I had hoped to start a nice roleplay sentric conflict with people who wished to roleplay evil characters, and someone who was definatly 100% good, and still maintain an in character format with dealing with some of the not-so-roleplay oriented evil characters around. For the most part, it's worked wonderously people who RP evil characters have someone to chase them down, and there is a nice give and take roleplay with the people who roleplay evil characters, and myself as one of the "good guys". The "evil" players know full well what sort of limitations I have within the Paladin mechanics (first strike soul hits, killing soul hits, undraggable Halts) and as such are willing to allow me every once in awhile to catch them, and "bring them to justice".
Unfortunatly, my dream of being able to stay in character and deal with the idiots in game, when they do pop their heads up which is thankfully alot less these days, is just not plausible, without dealing with the consequences, given mechanics that Paladins are forced to deal with. For this reason, I am discouraged playing a Paladin, I get to win, when I'm allowed to win, otherwise mechanics are stacked against me. I'll try and break it down:
Stealing:
Paladins get alot of nice abilities to boost their perception, and we are not handicapped in any way as far as being able to train our perception, just like any other survival teritary guild, so that's not an excuse we can use to say "Waaaah! Everyone picks on us, we're so easy!" If we don't want to be stolen from, we need to work perception, alot, and I do mean alot, I mean every waking second of every waking day, work perception!
The issue is not necessarily in being able to catch people stealing from us, but in what we can do to them afterwards. Lets look at our choices:
1) Hands of Justice - Great idea, truly, but honestly anyone who gets caught stealing doesn't care if they can't steal for hours on end, really it's not that big of a deal, they can just go do something else until the hands of justice spell wears off. Then they can just go right back to stealing, and even be tempted to steal from the Paladin that HoJ'd them, to "show them". That's even if a Paladin can get HoJ off, lets face it, alot of people are very quick at the keys and the roundtime it takes to get out of from a failed stealing attempt, compared to the prep time for a decent sized HoJ is nothing, pick pocket fails attempt, gets caught, Paladin preps, pick pocket can run to any number of random rooms in under 1 second before the Paladin can cast. Or, the Paladin can simply cast whatever they can snap cast, which will be significantly less, before the would be pick pocket can leave, that's what, 30-60 minutes at the most for fairly high magics?
2) Apprehending and turning them into the guards. Once upon a time we used to be able to Halt people, and drag them around. Weather it was drag them to the guards, accuse the thief and watch as they get taken away to jail. Truly satisfying back when it was possible, it really was, at least for me. Now, Halt, can't drag, at all period, nope, not gonna happen. Or even if knocked them out in some fashion, and started dragging them to a guard alls it takes is a quick avoid !drag, and poof, cant' drag at all. Which leaves the Paladin standing there going, crap, now what, I could kill them I suppose.......
3) Killing the pickpocket. Yes, a perfectly viable defense, we have consent, we can do it, lets go! Oooops, the consequence, is the time investment for raising my soul back up for killing this one annoying little pick pocket worth the headache of raising my soul back up? For me, 95% of the time, no. Oh, but now if I do it when I'm in town, I'm in jail, and how many pick pockets does it take before I lose some of my glyphs, 1, 2? How many before I can't circle anymore? 5, 10? The last time I killed someone it took me 5 days in Plat to get my soul back up to where I could use the glyph of mana, it would have taken me only 2 if I stopped all my training and done nothing but worked on my soul......2 days of playing.......yeah.
Killing the evil doer:
When events roll around, we got the GM NPC Evil doer that inevitably rolls around. As Paladins, when we see that evil necromancer running about of course we're going to rush them, it's our chance to be that dashing good guy we've all dreamed about for our characters! Oh, but wait.....
1) Halt em - We can halt the big bad guy and give them an oh so stern lecture, never, in my 10+ years in Dragonrealms have I ever seen, heard, or read about someone giving the evil bad guy a stern lecture and them changing their ways. Honestly, a Paladin Halts them, and BAM, someone else kills them and you're talking to a corpse......oh joy.
2) Kill em! - Ah ha! I did it, I killed the evil Necromancer, the creator of hoards of undead, slaughterer of virgins and children.....wait, why am I on my knees crying about it? Aw crap, here's to a weeks worth of working on my soul.......right after the evil necromancers minions finish killing me since I'm on my knees, stunned, and bawling like a baby for being a hero. Does that make any sense to anyone that a Paladin should feel guilty for killing someone who's evil?! GM NPC's are flagged as players and as such when a Paladin kills them, bam soul hits!
The proverbial stealth vs Paladins argument:
Look, I don't have 500 ranks of Perception on Zaud in Plat, but I do know Warrior Mages, Bards, and even Barbarians have a non-perception method of pulling people from hiding/invisibility. I am a defender of faith, a guardian from the shadows of proverbial badmojoness, why the hell don't I? Oh, right.....noone knows! 75% of all bad guys hide in the shadows, it's like an unwritten law. Bad guy GM NPC? Tons of hiding, stalking or ways to turn invisible. Hey! Didn't Sir Darius lead a team of Paladins to an organized crime syndicate under the Crossing at one point? So there we go, proof that evil lurks in the shadows, at least once it has! How many Paladins have ever been stolen by someone who hid in the shadows? Hey, how many Paladins have ever heard of someone being stolen from, by someone in the shadows? You'd think with all that history we'd have figured out some other way then the all mighty perception skill to watch the shadows for potential evil.
Oh, right, Paladin Sixth Sense, I'll even give us Sixth Sense + Clarity, wonderful we can now sense when someone is marking us, or stealing from us, we can even tell you that persons name, but for some reason Chadatru, or whoever does not seem fit to put a big glowing hand over the top of them saying Psst, hey blind dude, over here.
Now, speaking from a thief point of view, because yes, before I was a Paladin, I was a thief, thru and thru, Viva la revolution!
If I'm looking for a potential target I'll break it down:
Empath - Easy target, period, if I get caught, I have to deal with being "black listed" no biggy, there's a million empath buddies I can have heal me. I typically didn't because of a roleplayed "code".
Barbarian - Ugh, no. Slash the Shadows and more then likely if he can roar me out he'll eat me alive. If he can't, and I know he can't open season. (Notice there is no mention of perception even entering my head here)
Moon Mage - Ugh, no. Notoriously high perception, clear vision perception booster, high chance I'll get caught, and then I'm only a mind blast and a burn away from doing a corpse run. (Notice, perception discussion, but the big punishment of death is a definite issue here)
Trader - ROFL open season, I might have to deal with getting thugged if their on the routes, but hell most of them are scripting anyways and aren't paying any attention.
Warrior Mage - Do they have CL? If yes, stay away. If no, open season. (No perception discussion, I'm concerned about an AE spell that they don't even have to hit me with to pull me out of hiding)
Cleric - Oh, again, another black list threat, again, no worries, there's plenty of utility clerics around. Low perception, open season. I typically didn't because of a roleplayed "code".
Bard - Oh no, they got that eye of kertigen thing, they can even pull me out of invisiblity if their high enough. If not, probably still wouldn't, Bards can be plain nasty, knock you down, kill you if they got decent skill
with a weapon, ouch. (No perception discussion, and penalty of death)
Ranger - No, high perception due to survival primary, notoriously good ranged skills, which could mean, dead me. (Notice perception discussion, but penalty of death)
Paladin - Ah yes, high perception capabilities due to all their buffs and abilities, but hey I can easily determine if they got GoL up by LOOKing at them, which is alot of their perception booster down. If it's up, no biggy, just wait it doesn't last long. Paladin sixth sense? So what? They still gotta find me since they can't do anything to me with it. Then if they catch me? Oh yeah, dead me when they smite foe me, but hey if they do kill me they gotta spend time fixing their soul and most Paladins hate doing that, so the most I'll have to do is run. Oh yeah, open season. (Notice some perception discussion and penalty of death, by yes, Smite foe, which is a moot point with TM comming down the pipe, so there is no real hazard from trying to steal from a Paladin)
Is this logic flawed? A Paladin is the walking representation of justice, and we are among the top as potential targets? We can't even protect ourselves let alone others. Do not get me wrong, I love playing a Paladin, back to my pen and paper days I've enjoyed being the guy protecting the weak and upholding justice. I still enjoy it, even with all the mechanics Paladins are forced to deal with. However, it's sad that my Barbarian, Warrior Mage, Bard, or even Cleric can do a far better job of keeping the "evil" in line, then my Paladin can.
I yearn for the days when Paladins can stand at the gate and not necessarily that we're all powerful, but at least have some tools that the "evil" people don't laugh openly at us. I want to be cussed about in the thieves guild, I want an ability that will cause people on the wanted boards to THINK about steering clear of me. I WANT to be a champion of justice. Not justices bumbling side kick. There have been a ton of ideas given out to allow Paladins to be more Justice dealers then we currently are, why they get swept away I don't understand. Some of them are yes, blatantly overpowered and should be tempered with moderation, but others were well thought out and perfectly valid.
I don't want to have to deal with the consequences of giving the only punishment that stops people from acting idiotic, which is death. Lets face it, time in the stocks, hold on let me write a stall script, I'll go out, grab something to eat, watch a movie, and come back and be out, HA! idiot Paladin. A fine? Oh gee, oh no, hold on let me get into my account that has hundreds or thousands of plat in it and I'll pay those 30 murder charges off no problemo. Death? Damn, now that's annoying at least I have to take a proactive stance in getting my butt back on my feet. The sad part is, a Paladin has to take the same stance for repairing his soul for dishing out the only punishment that means anything these days.
Hopefully this hasn't confused anyone, and some other players of Paladins are sitting there nodding their heads and I'm not alone in my feelings of frustration. Hopefully GM's who maybe haven't played a Paladin before will read this and stop to think about some potential justice type abilities for Paladins. Hopefully, things will change, and hopefully, Paladins ,both staff and players,will stop bickering over the stupid ass TM argument like 3 year olds.
~Player of Zaud (Platinum)
Got Smite? - http://www.drpaladin.com
Yep, was nodding my head at a few of those. Personally I think that the reason we are weak in PvP scenarios is a desire to keep our guild full of only those with noble intentions. Power attracts players who like to be "evil" in game, and so our weakness in PvP reflects a fundamental game design concept of keeping us weak so that only the true good guys would be crazy enough to join the guild. This has worked, and remarkably well I might add. However I tend to agree that it would fit our RP to be participants in the justice system to some degree, especially with the high cost of dealing justice. "This is going to hurt you me more than it'll hurt you" applies to us when we kill a criminal (which is seemingly the only punishment that we can inflict). It takes far longer for us to recover from first strike/kill soul hit than it does for even a below average player to recover their items and then grab a favor orb, charge it, and get back up to speed. We fight a losing battle because it is well known how much time it wastes for us to take action against injustice. Frankly we should get soul BOOSTS for dealing out justice, or at the very least commendation from the guild (maybe a new title tree?). I'm not talking about rewarding us killing people, but some method of making them see justice. I like the idea of temporary banishment from the city where the offense took place.
Another thing I'm tired of is the attitude that the bad guys are running everything with an unseen influence. You're telling me the paladin guild has no clout when it comes to Crossings politics?
~Caneghem Urathi
Another thing I'm tired of is the attitude that the bad guys are running everything with an unseen influence. You're telling me the paladin guild has no clout when it comes to Crossings politics?
~Caneghem Urathi
It really is to bad that we don't have another profession, the soldier or mercenary. A profession that can wear heavy armor and use a wide range of weapons, if we'd have had that I'd have rolled one of those up instead of the paladin. The paladin was ok to play during the beta, was a nightmare to play once the game went out of beta and AOL got access to DR and the population surged. It was then that I found out how gimped the profession was and it was alot worse then compared to now, though even today it's pretty much exactly what your talking about Zaud's player.
I pretty much play my paladin like a passive wandering soldier, who turns the other cheek all the time and just goes about his day to day functions. He works his backside off on perception, skinning, disarm traps and lockpicking and just keeps to himself. Those skills are on par with his weapons and armor skills and his magical skills are actually also on par if not higher than his armor and weapon skills. Though magical devices I've been back training for some time now.
Anyhow yeah it truly is a frustrating and hollow feeling playing a paladin and always has been. There are certain aspects of the profession that really hit the mark for me but so much of it is a complete miss. Not making a guild versus guild debate here but why I dont play my warrior mage as much is because I simply dislike the constant repetetive nature of keeping the various spells up, why I dont like playing my thief as much is because I dont like lighter armors. Which is why I dont play a barbarian at all.
To use the term that the graphical games use these days, most of the time I just really enjoy playing a tank sort of character and due to the various frustrations that you listed, playing a paladin is indeed a hollow feeling and not satisfying by any means. Can't play a holy warrior that's for damn sure, being the martial arm for some divine being, not at least with how the games been running for the past 11 years and 8 months.
I pretty much play my paladin like a passive wandering soldier, who turns the other cheek all the time and just goes about his day to day functions. He works his backside off on perception, skinning, disarm traps and lockpicking and just keeps to himself. Those skills are on par with his weapons and armor skills and his magical skills are actually also on par if not higher than his armor and weapon skills. Though magical devices I've been back training for some time now.
Anyhow yeah it truly is a frustrating and hollow feeling playing a paladin and always has been. There are certain aspects of the profession that really hit the mark for me but so much of it is a complete miss. Not making a guild versus guild debate here but why I dont play my warrior mage as much is because I simply dislike the constant repetetive nature of keeping the various spells up, why I dont like playing my thief as much is because I dont like lighter armors. Which is why I dont play a barbarian at all.
To use the term that the graphical games use these days, most of the time I just really enjoy playing a tank sort of character and due to the various frustrations that you listed, playing a paladin is indeed a hollow feeling and not satisfying by any means. Can't play a holy warrior that's for damn sure, being the martial arm for some divine being, not at least with how the games been running for the past 11 years and 8 months.
Nice posts. I usually steer clea of long rants but I enjoyed yours. Maybe we can just have Hands of Justice crush hands. If you lose your hand you have to have it healed (active). If you lose your ability to steal you just do something else for a while (passive). Or increase the effect by a very large amount.
My primary is not a thief but steals with a bit over a hundred ranks. I boost this with CJs when I steal from PCs on occasion, and if I get caught my biggest worry is getting killed (lost time + healing + possibly a favor). Then getting arrested (lost time... I can make new gweths but lost time is annoying). Then getting HoJ (though I've never had it done). I mean, seriously, I'd just say thanks and go kill stuff or teach or whatever.
>dance sprite
A water sprite laughs and spins away as you approach her for a dance!
My primary is not a thief but steals with a bit over a hundred ranks. I boost this with CJs when I steal from PCs on occasion, and if I get caught my biggest worry is getting killed (lost time + healing + possibly a favor). Then getting arrested (lost time... I can make new gweths but lost time is annoying). Then getting HoJ (though I've never had it done). I mean, seriously, I'd just say thanks and go kill stuff or teach or whatever.
>dance sprite
A water sprite laughs and spins away as you approach her for a dance!
Ugh, after reading the post and doing my own post I thought I'd bite the bullet and try to work TM. Went from the 3 ranks I had to 5.38 ranks of TM and man did it leave a bad taste in my mouth. I felt like I was playing my warrior mage without as good mana and with alot less umph to my spells basically using STRA and EB left alot to be desired and really it was quite frustrating to do. I ended up going down to rats/crabs to mind lock TM which did work though wow did it take alot of casts even with tossing a spear or jabbing em a few times. I'm just flat out not sure if I honestly can push myself to back train this. I'd been back training since the new magic system came out years ago with frequent breaks etc when I got disgusted/frustrated etc.
And I'd been back training recently brawling due to how it worked on undead, heavy thrown/pikes(spears) basically ever since I saw how fun they looked in a arena fight I watched a couple years. This of course being on me to choose to back train pike and heavy thrown of course. That said all the back training I appear to have done has kept me from advancing much and on top of that creatures kept getting tweaked, everytime I'd return I'd find that a creature I'd finally moved away from was now one that could now kick my arse again. Which meant more back training if you follow the train of thought on that, and on top of that i didn't like how far my armor/shield skill got ahead of my weapons skills so I'd hold up as much as I could in order to have some sort of balance.
Anyhow the pure magical path of my warrior mage does not draw me, and with paladins going more magical and the TM spells feeling like neutered warrior mage spells, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I've only been back a bit over a week and I'm already thinking that shutting down is a good idea. I've been able to ignore alot of the short comings/issues with playing a paladin or taking a break from that profession and either playing another character or another game when i couldn't but that said it's getting more than a bit tiresome when you add up all the short comings.
Sadly I have a big issue with SGM Warden's point of view and the changes he's been in charge of recent years over in SIMU's other game Gemstone. He's made the game more and more restrictive profession wise so much so that many of my character designs from years ago nolonger are viable. Though at least there you can retrain all your skills and then type FIXSKILLS Confirm and have them all instantly migrated to your new skill paths once a year. I just can't stand how D&D restrictive he's made the game over there. Nice guy and really nice in person but I dont like playing games like that which is why I started playing more and more DR as time went on. But these changes to paladins here on top of the long as we've all talked about short comings that have been this profession from day one of beta are making it so that I have no acceptable profession to play. :(
Ah well at least the book I'm reading is really enjoyable, I'd highly recommend reading Dan Simmons' "Ilium" really a fun read. :) Guess I could log out and go fix the flat tire on one of the kids bikes since I've got the time, they get more flats than I ever recall getting as a kid! To bad barbarians weren't really designed to be heavy armor users, I might consider just finally rolling one up and playing that.
And I'd been back training recently brawling due to how it worked on undead, heavy thrown/pikes(spears) basically ever since I saw how fun they looked in a arena fight I watched a couple years. This of course being on me to choose to back train pike and heavy thrown of course. That said all the back training I appear to have done has kept me from advancing much and on top of that creatures kept getting tweaked, everytime I'd return I'd find that a creature I'd finally moved away from was now one that could now kick my arse again. Which meant more back training if you follow the train of thought on that, and on top of that i didn't like how far my armor/shield skill got ahead of my weapons skills so I'd hold up as much as I could in order to have some sort of balance.
Anyhow the pure magical path of my warrior mage does not draw me, and with paladins going more magical and the TM spells feeling like neutered warrior mage spells, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I've only been back a bit over a week and I'm already thinking that shutting down is a good idea. I've been able to ignore alot of the short comings/issues with playing a paladin or taking a break from that profession and either playing another character or another game when i couldn't but that said it's getting more than a bit tiresome when you add up all the short comings.
Sadly I have a big issue with SGM Warden's point of view and the changes he's been in charge of recent years over in SIMU's other game Gemstone. He's made the game more and more restrictive profession wise so much so that many of my character designs from years ago nolonger are viable. Though at least there you can retrain all your skills and then type FIXSKILLS Confirm and have them all instantly migrated to your new skill paths once a year. I just can't stand how D&D restrictive he's made the game over there. Nice guy and really nice in person but I dont like playing games like that which is why I started playing more and more DR as time went on. But these changes to paladins here on top of the long as we've all talked about short comings that have been this profession from day one of beta are making it so that I have no acceptable profession to play. :(
Ah well at least the book I'm reading is really enjoyable, I'd highly recommend reading Dan Simmons' "Ilium" really a fun read. :) Guess I could log out and go fix the flat tire on one of the kids bikes since I've got the time, they get more flats than I ever recall getting as a kid! To bad barbarians weren't really designed to be heavy armor users, I might consider just finally rolling one up and playing that.
>paladins going more magical
I didn't really get this impression from the changes that I've heard about. The magic damage aspect of a paladin is certainly taking more of a WM-like feel, but magical disabling seems like it will remain explicitly non-TM.
> I'd highly recommend reading Dan Simmons' "Ilium" really a fun read.
Ditto. That duo and the Hyperion series are absolutely great, in my opinion. IM me sometime and we can talk shop.
-Durnil
I didn't really get this impression from the changes that I've heard about. The magic damage aspect of a paladin is certainly taking more of a WM-like feel, but magical disabling seems like it will remain explicitly non-TM.
> I'd highly recommend reading Dan Simmons' "Ilium" really a fun read.
Ditto. That duo and the Hyperion series are absolutely great, in my opinion. IM me sometime and we can talk shop.
-Durnil
>>pick pocket fails attempt, gets caught, Paladin preps, pick pocket can run to any number of random rooms in under 1 second
That's why the current incarnation of Hands of Justice is a lasting spell the Paladin casts beforehand, then to apply the penalty to a thief you just GESTURE (person) at some later time.
Killing you softly with his song,
- Stormsinger Shavay
Madness does not always howl. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "Hey, is there room in your head for one more?"
That's why the current incarnation of Hands of Justice is a lasting spell the Paladin casts beforehand, then to apply the penalty to a thief you just GESTURE (person) at some later time.
Killing you softly with his song,
- Stormsinger Shavay
Madness does not always howl. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "Hey, is there room in your head for one more?"
I do not agree with the complaint, but I can explain it. HoJ is hard to snap cast so you can't get it off between the time (i) you "sense" a mark and (ii) the actual theft occurs.
In my opinion it is a passive spell that you cast and it lasts a long time. One of those spells you can cast (like clarity) and just run around town or sit around and juggle or such.
My only complaint is that I prefer the hand crush to the gesture. Just my opinion on that aspect of the spell.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
In my opinion it is a passive spell that you cast and it lasts a long time. One of those spells you can cast (like clarity) and just run around town or sit around and juggle or such.
My only complaint is that I prefer the hand crush to the gesture. Just my opinion on that aspect of the spell.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
<<I don't really understand the complaint, unless my acronyms have gone crazy on me, since HoJ is a passive buff it's incredibly easy to keep on all the time, and provides a very large boost against stealing.>>
The complaint wasn't against "stealing" as an entire entity more so as an attempt to express the frustration of my personal thoughts on Paladins in ability to provide any sort of real "punishment" to people being caught by a Paladin other then, no more stealing for you for awhile, I'd love to see some more punishments in the justice system that were just as annoying/inconvenient as death. As it stands now, death is really the only annoying punishment that someone has to take a proactive approach too, the others are simply a "yawn, and turn on a script to wait it out" punishment. When a Paladin deals out death, it's the ole, work on the soul annoyance where someone has to actually WORK at it.
How about Paladins are able to hurt a thieves bonus if they catch them stealing through action/spell? Not just, oh let me go report them to the guards as thief goes sneaking through town to run to another town for a few weeks.
Admittedly, I don't use HoJ in Plat, we're so spread out in our population I can go months without being stolen from if I stay away from any populated area. So my description of prep hoj, cast pickpocket, is inaccurate these days. Although even, gesture pickpocket is hard to pull off sometimes without using triggers. Ah, yes, beautiful triggers, what I wouldn't do without you......
Just waiting on the new and improved justice system........
and waiting.....
waiting....
~Player of Zaud (Platinum)
Got Smite? - http://www.drpaladin.com
The complaint wasn't against "stealing" as an entire entity more so as an attempt to express the frustration of my personal thoughts on Paladins in ability to provide any sort of real "punishment" to people being caught by a Paladin other then, no more stealing for you for awhile, I'd love to see some more punishments in the justice system that were just as annoying/inconvenient as death. As it stands now, death is really the only annoying punishment that someone has to take a proactive approach too, the others are simply a "yawn, and turn on a script to wait it out" punishment. When a Paladin deals out death, it's the ole, work on the soul annoyance where someone has to actually WORK at it.
How about Paladins are able to hurt a thieves bonus if they catch them stealing through action/spell? Not just, oh let me go report them to the guards as thief goes sneaking through town to run to another town for a few weeks.
Admittedly, I don't use HoJ in Plat, we're so spread out in our population I can go months without being stolen from if I stay away from any populated area. So my description of prep hoj, cast pickpocket, is inaccurate these days. Although even, gesture pickpocket is hard to pull off sometimes without using triggers. Ah, yes, beautiful triggers, what I wouldn't do without you......
Just waiting on the new and improved justice system........
and waiting.....
waiting....
~Player of Zaud (Platinum)
Got Smite? - http://www.drpaladin.com
Ha, I feel you on the weeping/crying messaging a Paladin get after killing someone.
And while I enjoyed your post, I don't agree with all of it.
Paladins are weapon secondary just like Rangers! And Thieves! And War Mages! Complaining about Rangers having a good ranged weapon is not valid in your case.
Want to know why a lot (not all) of Paladins suck at ranged weapons? Because they had 11 years of doing nothing but training the easily trained magic skills to rely solely on Smite Foe for pvp. Now that Smite Foe might require TM, it makes a lot of Paladins nothing more than a joke as far as pvp goes.
If I played a Paladin my primary weapon would be HX, LX, or HT.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
And while I enjoyed your post, I don't agree with all of it.
Paladins are weapon secondary just like Rangers! And Thieves! And War Mages! Complaining about Rangers having a good ranged weapon is not valid in your case.
Want to know why a lot (not all) of Paladins suck at ranged weapons? Because they had 11 years of doing nothing but training the easily trained magic skills to rely solely on Smite Foe for pvp. Now that Smite Foe might require TM, it makes a lot of Paladins nothing more than a joke as far as pvp goes.
If I played a Paladin my primary weapon would be HX, LX, or HT.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
<<And while I enjoyed your post, I don't agree with all of it.>>
Everyones entiteled to their opinions.
~Player of Zaud (Platinum)
Got Smite? - http://www.drpaladin.com
Everyones entiteled to their opinions.
~Player of Zaud (Platinum)
Got Smite? - http://www.drpaladin.com
>>Everyones entiteled to their opinions.
Of course, and opinions can be agreed or disagreed with.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Of course, and opinions can be agreed or disagreed with.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
<<Want to know why a lot (not all) of Paladins suck at ranged weapons? Because they had 11 years of doing nothing but training the easily trained magic skills to rely solely on Smite Foe for pvp. Now that Smite Foe might require TM, it makes a lot of Paladins nothing more than a joke as far as pvp goes.>>
Most of those 11 years smite foe wasn't usable on players... so no excuse not to train a ranged really except for some of the really young ones. Paladins problems with PvP mostly have to do with stealth... and our general lack of ability to utilize it.
~Caneghem Urathi
Most of those 11 years smite foe wasn't usable on players... so no excuse not to train a ranged really except for some of the really young ones. Paladins problems with PvP mostly have to do with stealth... and our general lack of ability to utilize it.
~Caneghem Urathi
>>Paladins problems with PvP mostly have to do with stealth... and our general lack of ability to utilize it.
You don't have to utilize stealth to be good in PvP. That's not a problem at all.
The problem is when a Paladin can't make a little school girl flinch from missile ranged. Smite Foe is deadly, but if it's changed to require TM, then the lack of a ranged weapon will be a Paladin's biggest problem. That's until we see what the engagement changes bring.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
You don't have to utilize stealth to be good in PvP. That's not a problem at all.
The problem is when a Paladin can't make a little school girl flinch from missile ranged. Smite Foe is deadly, but if it's changed to require TM, then the lack of a ranged weapon will be a Paladin's biggest problem. That's until we see what the engagement changes bring.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>That's until we see what the engagement changes bring.
Vin. Please. This is the Paladin guild. You MUST grab your fluffy bunny when you join. The engagement change won't affect Paladin PvP much. There will still be too many peace, love and understanding blocks in place.
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
Vin. Please. This is the Paladin guild. You MUST grab your fluffy bunny when you join. The engagement change won't affect Paladin PvP much. There will still be too many peace, love and understanding blocks in place.
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
<<Want to know why a lot (not all) of Paladins suck at ranged weapons? Because they had 11 years of doing nothing but training the easily trained magic skills to rely solely on Smite Foe for pvp.>>
A bit more history is required to understand why this is not true. SF was not castable on players until the last two years. That is not the primary reason the above statement is not true however. The real reason is a bit...well odd looking back in hindsight.
For many, many years using a ranged weapon was considered dishonorable and against the unwritten code of the guild. This was preached by the majority of my elders, which I (in turn) taught until reality set in rather starkly on most of us. This philosophy traces back to the only book on paladins which existed at the time in the Crossing Library which...you guessed it...said that attacking an opponent from ranged was dishonorable.
Odd in hindsight, but it was at the time a hotly debated issue in the guild. In short, for us older paladins we rather "gimped" ourselves for ranged combat.
Personally, I have thought about this for some time and I do not believe I would change things back then. Stealth was not the end all, be all at that time and the most feared guild was....the paladins of all things. Why? Well, because we could get to melee on most people and stay there and we had the oldest characters in the game.
Anyway, your odd, but true story of the day from ungle Madigan.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
A bit more history is required to understand why this is not true. SF was not castable on players until the last two years. That is not the primary reason the above statement is not true however. The real reason is a bit...well odd looking back in hindsight.
For many, many years using a ranged weapon was considered dishonorable and against the unwritten code of the guild. This was preached by the majority of my elders, which I (in turn) taught until reality set in rather starkly on most of us. This philosophy traces back to the only book on paladins which existed at the time in the Crossing Library which...you guessed it...said that attacking an opponent from ranged was dishonorable.
Odd in hindsight, but it was at the time a hotly debated issue in the guild. In short, for us older paladins we rather "gimped" ourselves for ranged combat.
Personally, I have thought about this for some time and I do not believe I would change things back then. Stealth was not the end all, be all at that time and the most feared guild was....the paladins of all things. Why? Well, because we could get to melee on most people and stay there and we had the oldest characters in the game.
Anyway, your odd, but true story of the day from ungle Madigan.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
There's a lot of good ranged and shield users right now. I know backtraining sucks, but it really looks like the lack of a ranged weapon will be the sole reason Paladins will not be too good in PvP.
But hey, I'm not gonna go into any PvP lectures. I'll just chuckle and shake my head at the complaints.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
But hey, I'm not gonna go into any PvP lectures. I'll just chuckle and shake my head at the complaints.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
<<I know backtraining sucks, but it really looks like the lack of a ranged weapon will be the sole reason Paladins will not be too good in PvP.>>
Ohh, I think you are spot on my friend. I just wanted to give you the history of the "why" of the situation.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
Ohh, I think you are spot on my friend. I just wanted to give you the history of the "why" of the situation.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
Paladins need more use out of their primary skillset. The only skillset that "does" less is the magic one, but that is of course made up for by all the spells and their effects. The armor skillset doesn't really seem to "grow" that in a very obvious way that survival skillset (for example) does.
>dance sprite
A water sprite laughs and spins away as you approach her for a dance!
>dance sprite
A water sprite laughs and spins away as you approach her for a dance!
For me, Moon Mages are the #1 guild to one-hit first. Probably the same for most who can't backstab and negate shield + penalize a Paladin's tert evasion ranks. The only other combat guild that has tert evasion also has one of the best evasion boosters in the game.
I'd say Paladins could use a lot more development, and can really use some advanced abilities being armor primary. That, + a strong ranged weapon, nice perception, and they're really not all that bad. I'd just hate managing the soulstate and the weeping/crying stuff.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I'd say Paladins could use a lot more development, and can really use some advanced abilities being armor primary. That, + a strong ranged weapon, nice perception, and they're really not all that bad. I'd just hate managing the soulstate and the weeping/crying stuff.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
<<The armor skillset doesn't really seem to "grow" that in a very obvious way that survival skillset (for example) does.>>
A key point IMO.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
A key point IMO.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
<<260 backstab and I can 1-hit kill 100+ Paladins.>>
Sad, but probably true. Why?
1. BS checks two tert skills of paladins (perception and evasion).
2. Armor does very little do help in this situation. The damage is not noticably different between a paladin wearing leather and having 60 ranks vs. plate armor and over 400 ranks. When we are talking damage modifiers based on a backstab, once they get through perception/evasion it is usually a kill or serious injury well in excess of the protection of plate or leather (regardless of ranks). Very sad.
3. GoL has visiual effects which let everyone know when it is down.
4. GoL sucks more soul juice than any other ability.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
Sad, but probably true. Why?
1. BS checks two tert skills of paladins (perception and evasion).
2. Armor does very little do help in this situation. The damage is not noticably different between a paladin wearing leather and having 60 ranks vs. plate armor and over 400 ranks. When we are talking damage modifiers based on a backstab, once they get through perception/evasion it is usually a kill or serious injury well in excess of the protection of plate or leather (regardless of ranks). Very sad.
3. GoL has visiual effects which let everyone know when it is down.
4. GoL sucks more soul juice than any other ability.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
>2. Armor does very little do help in this situation.
1. Armor is paper at any rank. Flimsy blades go through 900 stone HP like butter (slicers and pokers alike). Let me get a Yeehaw for Fantasy.
2. Armor ranks may have some impact at superhigh levels, but from where I can see, only serve to reduce hindrance over the first 80 or so ranks, and then only provide an easy source for TDPs and circling requirements.
3. Paladins have exactly one armor feat, at 30th circle there is no multi-penalty. OHYEAHWOOT!!!!111 Ok, maybe 2 if the app thing is counted as a feat, but that one doesn't require any skill just join-join. Ok, maybe 2.5 of if the arm-worn shield size limitations are counted.
Let me look back through the armor and paladin suggestion folders to see how that could be improved upon. Oh wait, skip it, it won't do any good.
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
1. Armor is paper at any rank. Flimsy blades go through 900 stone HP like butter (slicers and pokers alike). Let me get a Yeehaw for Fantasy.
2. Armor ranks may have some impact at superhigh levels, but from where I can see, only serve to reduce hindrance over the first 80 or so ranks, and then only provide an easy source for TDPs and circling requirements.
3. Paladins have exactly one armor feat, at 30th circle there is no multi-penalty. OHYEAHWOOT!!!!111 Ok, maybe 2 if the app thing is counted as a feat, but that one doesn't require any skill just join-join. Ok, maybe 2.5 of if the arm-worn shield size limitations are counted.
Let me look back through the armor and paladin suggestion folders to see how that could be improved upon. Oh wait, skip it, it won't do any good.
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
>>I dunno about that. Every class I can think of that can get by in PvP OK without stealth has a really decent anti-stealth.
I've killed a lot of stealth people without using Slash plenty of times. Not spars, but conflicts. Don't have enough ranks in weapon to use Whirlwind in that way.
Though, it IS better to have anti-stealth abilities. I wouldn't argue against Paladins not having any, and I'd make suggestions myself. It's just not necessary to be good at PvP.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
I've killed a lot of stealth people without using Slash plenty of times. Not spars, but conflicts. Don't have enough ranks in weapon to use Whirlwind in that way.
Though, it IS better to have anti-stealth abilities. I wouldn't argue against Paladins not having any, and I'd make suggestions myself. It's just not necessary to be good at PvP.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>Something tells me those conflicts weren't exactly even in some way.
Funny, since I just killed a Thief a few days ago who I couldn't see hide or stalk me when my perception is 30+ ranks higher than my top weapon. It was rather hard too, but I managed to do it without having to use Slash. I also found out she's a Thief that's almost 10 circles higher than my Barb, and a well-trained combat Thief.
My point is... there's multiple ways to get around stealth. Paladins have GoL. Paladins can get a perception cj (something I can't do). Paladins can get thug powders. Paladins can get unbend sigils for certain kinds of inviso. Paladins can use the watch verb.
You don't need a decent anti-stealth to be good at PvP. Not sure how that's hard to understand.
Now, if you DO have a decent anti-stealth then it makes you that much better.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Funny, since I just killed a Thief a few days ago who I couldn't see hide or stalk me when my perception is 30+ ranks higher than my top weapon. It was rather hard too, but I managed to do it without having to use Slash. I also found out she's a Thief that's almost 10 circles higher than my Barb, and a well-trained combat Thief.
My point is... there's multiple ways to get around stealth. Paladins have GoL. Paladins can get a perception cj (something I can't do). Paladins can get thug powders. Paladins can get unbend sigils for certain kinds of inviso. Paladins can use the watch verb.
You don't need a decent anti-stealth to be good at PvP. Not sure how that's hard to understand.
Now, if you DO have a decent anti-stealth then it makes you that much better.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>You don't need a decent anti-stealth to be good at PvP. Not sure how that's hard to understand.
You need luck. If you can't see them, you can't attack them (or defend very well), and have to run around until you can see them.
Running around and waiting for your opponent is not a test of skills. It's a test of who can get a new beer from the fridge faster, or who doesn't have a bladder the size of the Bronx.
Bottom line, the stealther has to make a mistake if a non-perceptive conflictee wins. Powders, runes, sigils... blah -- who has time for that crap?
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
You need luck. If you can't see them, you can't attack them (or defend very well), and have to run around until you can see them.
Running around and waiting for your opponent is not a test of skills. It's a test of who can get a new beer from the fridge faster, or who doesn't have a bladder the size of the Bronx.
Bottom line, the stealther has to make a mistake if a non-perceptive conflictee wins. Powders, runes, sigils... blah -- who has time for that crap?
-THE Noob
Holy father - holy ghost
Who's the one who hurts you most
Rock the cradle when you cry
Scream another lullaby
That's a cute anecdote, Vinjince, but that doesn't mean it was "even".
All of your incredibly vague ("well trained combat thief") and wholly irrelevant (10 circles omg!)'information' tells us nothing.
What was the reality of the situation? Your evasion and perception, their weapon skills and backstabbing? Y'know, stuff that actually counts.
With a few rare exceptions, PvP in DR, especially on the high end, is a situation where whoever gets the first attack in wins. Provided the skill levels on each side are fairly even, pretty much every one of those rare exceptions happens to involve a barbarian on the defensive side.
<<You don't need a decent anti-stealth to be good at PvP as long as your opponent is wholly inept. >>
Fixed that for you.
All of your incredibly vague ("well trained combat thief") and wholly irrelevant (10 circles omg!)'information' tells us nothing.
What was the reality of the situation? Your evasion and perception, their weapon skills and backstabbing? Y'know, stuff that actually counts.
With a few rare exceptions, PvP in DR, especially on the high end, is a situation where whoever gets the first attack in wins. Provided the skill levels on each side are fairly even, pretty much every one of those rare exceptions happens to involve a barbarian on the defensive side.
<<You don't need a decent anti-stealth to be good at PvP as long as your opponent is wholly inept. >>
Fixed that for you.
>>Powders, runes, sigils... blah -- who has time for that crap?
The people that want to be good at PvP?
Seriously though, you win some you lose some. I've murdered and I've been murdered. I'm not saying Paladins have it good or anything. But PvP boils down to one thing: Knowledge and Wisdom. Knowing what you can and can't do, as well as making the best choices based on that. Sometimes it results in you getting blasted. Sometimes it can't be helped. More often than not though, you'll see yourself coming out on top in situations that could have gone either way.
But yeah, Paladins could definitely use some better stuff against stealth. I'm all for it. I know they're not the best against stealth. Paladins should be one of the guilds that Thieves might want to avoid a lot of times.
However, I completely disagree that Paladins don't have any options right now to be good at PvP against stealth. They can be.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
The people that want to be good at PvP?
Seriously though, you win some you lose some. I've murdered and I've been murdered. I'm not saying Paladins have it good or anything. But PvP boils down to one thing: Knowledge and Wisdom. Knowing what you can and can't do, as well as making the best choices based on that. Sometimes it results in you getting blasted. Sometimes it can't be helped. More often than not though, you'll see yourself coming out on top in situations that could have gone either way.
But yeah, Paladins could definitely use some better stuff against stealth. I'm all for it. I know they're not the best against stealth. Paladins should be one of the guilds that Thieves might want to avoid a lot of times.
However, I completely disagree that Paladins don't have any options right now to be good at PvP against stealth. They can be.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Mors,
If you are in Prime, you'll find that A LOT of opponents are inept in their knowledge of PvP. I've seen people buy characters and get thrashed. I've seen decent PvP'ers get beaten by someone inferior, simply cause that inferior person used everything they possibly could to their advantage.
Sometimes striking at the right time can make you good at PvP. You don't always have to (OMG attack! Attack!!!) at the initial encounter.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
If you are in Prime, you'll find that A LOT of opponents are inept in their knowledge of PvP. I've seen people buy characters and get thrashed. I've seen decent PvP'ers get beaten by someone inferior, simply cause that inferior person used everything they possibly could to their advantage.
Sometimes striking at the right time can make you good at PvP. You don't always have to (OMG attack! Attack!!!) at the initial encounter.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
<<Paladins should be one of the guilds that Thieves might want to avoid a lot of times.
Not really. Using khri spot I could probably see any paladin in hiding in the game. If there is ever a paladin in a tourney he would be the first to go, basically because of poor hiding/perception.
Really, the only thing paladins have going is GoL, which is a pretty insane percep boost.
Not really. Using khri spot I could probably see any paladin in hiding in the game. If there is ever a paladin in a tourney he would be the first to go, basically because of poor hiding/perception.
Really, the only thing paladins have going is GoL, which is a pretty insane percep boost.
>>Unfortunately, "Well...a lot of the players are inept!" isn't an adequate response to a vast mechanical disparity in power.
Not sure about TF, but you usually don't just get backstabbed by a Thief out of nowhere in Prime. If they steal from you then you can watch them. If a Paladin has a good ranged weapon, throw on a couple of CJs and they got a decent chance of being good in PvP depending on how well they know what they're doing. Use some powders. Do whatever it takes.
You'll hardly come across many people that are "even" so to speak. I'm generally not worried about whether said person has 300 or 200 ranks in evasion. I do what I can do to kill them. If I fail because they're too powerful then guess what? I die. Paladins are definitely capable to taking out a stealthy type where the situation is not in their favor. It just involves a lot of factors.
Did you get the part where I mentioned cjs, powders, etc..?? Oh no, you ignored it.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Not sure about TF, but you usually don't just get backstabbed by a Thief out of nowhere in Prime. If they steal from you then you can watch them. If a Paladin has a good ranged weapon, throw on a couple of CJs and they got a decent chance of being good in PvP depending on how well they know what they're doing. Use some powders. Do whatever it takes.
You'll hardly come across many people that are "even" so to speak. I'm generally not worried about whether said person has 300 or 200 ranks in evasion. I do what I can do to kill them. If I fail because they're too powerful then guess what? I die. Paladins are definitely capable to taking out a stealthy type where the situation is not in their favor. It just involves a lot of factors.
Did you get the part where I mentioned cjs, powders, etc..?? Oh no, you ignored it.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
