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I'm collecting feedback on the assorted TM spells we have. Which do you like, which do you not like and why. This thread is for the Paladin spells:
Footman's Strike
Smite Horde
Rebuke
Strange Arrow
Feel free to comment on both the mechanics and the messaging since messaging is a big part of what makes TM spells what they are.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Footman's strike: Seems to be a good starting spell for paladins. nice effects messaging, But it does take up a combat movement to use.Dependent on Soul State.
Smite Horde: Only multi target strike TM, seems to be mostly slice damage. Is usable independent of combat move but a little underpowered for the number of strikes? Dependent on Soul State.
Rebuke: My choice for combat TM spells. Nice messaging, good balance effect, and very hard hitting for damage.Dependent on Soul State.
Strange Arrow: My second choice for TM . nice messaging. nice damage, And isn't dependent on Soul State ( you could have a black soul and still use.)
Sorry not a very technical evaluation.
M@c ~]X!j % %AN_rrWB5z4%p rBa =jZb*h[mp,0;pv` knIM%aJ|
******************************************
WARNING: You are carrying an extremely large number of items on your person.
Having a very high number of items can cause character corruption or
Smite Horde: Only multi target strike TM, seems to be mostly slice damage. Is usable independent of combat move but a little underpowered for the number of strikes? Dependent on Soul State.
Rebuke: My choice for combat TM spells. Nice messaging, good balance effect, and very hard hitting for damage.Dependent on Soul State.
Strange Arrow: My second choice for TM . nice messaging. nice damage, And isn't dependent on Soul State ( you could have a black soul and still use.)
Sorry not a very technical evaluation.
M@c ~]X!j % %AN_rrWB5z4%p rBa =jZb*h[mp,0;pv` knIM%aJ|
******************************************
WARNING: You are carrying an extremely large number of items on your person.
Having a very high number of items can cause character corruption or
Footman's Strike: I don't use this spell much, but when I do it seems to lack much of a punch. The messaging its pretty straight forward, just blinking lights and poke or slam etc. This might be one of the spells that would need a fluffier description, but overall I don't really mind the messaging.
Smite Horde: This spell is fun to use but does not seem to hit hard specially for the mana it uses. I will use 100 mana cast and still get mostly light hits on level and minor good hits. I can cast it several times before it actually starts to do anything(mostly very low on mana by that point). Seems pretty weak at the moment and could definitely use some adjustments.
Rebuke: I love this spell. Does not take to much mana and hits pretty decent, plus bonus that it tanks balance. nothing much to complain on this one.
Strange Arrow: This is my TM training spell. At only 2 mana min prep, it trains great and you can sling this guy all day. Helps a ton with managing our mana in combat.
One more thing, kind of off subject. When you guys took our range boost from RW it was because the spell did too much for one spell. Could we please get a new range boost spell that increases our range/Tm skill. We are really in a bad spot when it comes to range right now at level, range for us is more of a hobby specially TM wise. Can't really use it well besides training.
Thank you for keeping us in the loop Raesh
Smite Horde: This spell is fun to use but does not seem to hit hard specially for the mana it uses. I will use 100 mana cast and still get mostly light hits on level and minor good hits. I can cast it several times before it actually starts to do anything(mostly very low on mana by that point). Seems pretty weak at the moment and could definitely use some adjustments.
Rebuke: I love this spell. Does not take to much mana and hits pretty decent, plus bonus that it tanks balance. nothing much to complain on this one.
Strange Arrow: This is my TM training spell. At only 2 mana min prep, it trains great and you can sling this guy all day. Helps a ton with managing our mana in combat.
One more thing, kind of off subject. When you guys took our range boost from RW it was because the spell did too much for one spell. Could we please get a new range boost spell that increases our range/Tm skill. We are really in a bad spot when it comes to range right now at level, range for us is more of a hobby specially TM wise. Can't really use it well besides training.
Thank you for keeping us in the loop Raesh
>Footman's Strike
It's a single-target damaging TM spell. As far as mechanics go, what more is there to say? The little quirk it has about being based on whatever weapon you have in your hands is mildly amusing and all that, but it feels more like a gimmick than anything useful. The messaging (really, the entire theme of the spell) is pretty lame, imo. I don't think that TM spells for Paladins should have phantasmal weapons flying about or anything similar to that - it's very cheesy, and not in a good way. This spell reminds me of the Blessed Hammer spell that Paladins had in Diablo 2, which is generally not a good thing. XD I'd rather see it as some sort of Holy Bolt or other manifestation of Holy Mana than as a projection of weapons.
>Strange Arrow
Feels weird casting this as a Paladin, but that can potentially be a good thing. This spell has always felt a little sorcerous, evil, or like "witchcraft" to me for some reason. Casting it as a Paladin makes me feel like I'm breaking the mold, which again is potentially a very good thing. Mechanically speaking, it's just another single-target damaging TM spell with its own very minor quirk. Not much to say.
>Rebuke and Smite Horde
I have no experience with these. No comment.
It's a single-target damaging TM spell. As far as mechanics go, what more is there to say? The little quirk it has about being based on whatever weapon you have in your hands is mildly amusing and all that, but it feels more like a gimmick than anything useful. The messaging (really, the entire theme of the spell) is pretty lame, imo. I don't think that TM spells for Paladins should have phantasmal weapons flying about or anything similar to that - it's very cheesy, and not in a good way. This spell reminds me of the Blessed Hammer spell that Paladins had in Diablo 2, which is generally not a good thing. XD I'd rather see it as some sort of Holy Bolt or other manifestation of Holy Mana than as a projection of weapons.
>Strange Arrow
Feels weird casting this as a Paladin, but that can potentially be a good thing. This spell has always felt a little sorcerous, evil, or like "witchcraft" to me for some reason. Casting it as a Paladin makes me feel like I'm breaking the mold, which again is potentially a very good thing. Mechanically speaking, it's just another single-target damaging TM spell with its own very minor quirk. Not much to say.
>Rebuke and Smite Horde
I have no experience with these. No comment.
Footman's strike. I like it. It's my goto TM trainer since it works on living and undead. Two things I would like to see to improve upon it. 1) Let it work with bows or crossbows in hand or let it default to brawling weapon when unarmed (based on hand armor or brawling knuckles/spikes). 2) Let the damage be partially determined by the stats of the weapon itself.
Rebuke. I also like this spell. No complaints. 3.1 seemed to have fixed the previous issues (which probably means it will be downtweaked...)
Smite Horde: Nice messaging, but I don't use it. Vastly underpowered in damage for the amount of mana you put into it.
Strange arrow: It's a fine spell. Good damage. Fun messaging. I just don't use it too often.
--Just a Squire
Rebuke. I also like this spell. No complaints. 3.1 seemed to have fixed the previous issues (which probably means it will be downtweaked...)
Smite Horde: Nice messaging, but I don't use it. Vastly underpowered in damage for the amount of mana you put into it.
Strange arrow: It's a fine spell. Good damage. Fun messaging. I just don't use it too often.
--Just a Squire
Footman's Strike: Not very useful, the damage is ok but just not useful
Smite Horde: The best spell to train TM IMO currently but the damage it pretty lousy and requires pretty big casts to learn well with. Also love the multistrike aspect of it
Rebuke: great spell, love the knockdown and the multistrike
Strange Arrow: better than FST but still not as useful as Rebuke and doesn't train as well as SMH
Smite Horde: The best spell to train TM IMO currently but the damage it pretty lousy and requires pretty big casts to learn well with. Also love the multistrike aspect of it
Rebuke: great spell, love the knockdown and the multistrike
Strange Arrow: better than FST but still not as useful as Rebuke and doesn't train as well as SMH
FST:
Single target, high accuracy - When I'm having issues learning TM in my hunting ground this is my go-to. Being able to pick damage types to work around armors is a nice feature. Makes me wish my TM was remotely closer to my mains to more active use in PVP.
Rebuke:
Multi-Strike, balance hit - This is my go-to for training. Between knockdowns (if I can TM it, I always win the knockdown contest because my TM is far far behind), and multi strike I find this to be my best use of time/mana for both damage and exp.
SMH:
This USED to be my go-to for invasions/group hunting, but between the high mana cost and the high slot cost, plus the rather needed AOE target cap, I didn't choose it post preview this time around.
Stra:
Solid spell, good damage and accuracy, hilarious messaging. The only reason I didn't learn it on my Paladin is I had to take FST, which covered my single target/single shot needs. Might revisit for the electrical damage bit for pvp if my TM catches up more.
Samsaren
Single target, high accuracy - When I'm having issues learning TM in my hunting ground this is my go-to. Being able to pick damage types to work around armors is a nice feature. Makes me wish my TM was remotely closer to my mains to more active use in PVP.
Rebuke:
Multi-Strike, balance hit - This is my go-to for training. Between knockdowns (if I can TM it, I always win the knockdown contest because my TM is far far behind), and multi strike I find this to be my best use of time/mana for both damage and exp.
SMH:
This USED to be my go-to for invasions/group hunting, but between the high mana cost and the high slot cost, plus the rather needed AOE target cap, I didn't choose it post preview this time around.
Stra:
Solid spell, good damage and accuracy, hilarious messaging. The only reason I didn't learn it on my Paladin is I had to take FST, which covered my single target/single shot needs. Might revisit for the electrical damage bit for pvp if my TM catches up more.
Samsaren
FST: The fact that I can control its damage type makes it one of my favorite single target TM spells in the game. Damage feels good.
Rebuke: Very accurate and solid damage. The knockdown makes it one of my favorite multi-strike TM spells in the game. Has great synergy with weapons.
SMH: I didn't pick it up in 3.1 for many of the reasons mentioned above. The biggest reason for me is probably damage. In invasions, I find it more effective to use weapon attacks to quickly take down a horde of enemies.
STRA: Can't comment. I haven't used it in a while.
If I were to make one general critique about our TM spells, it would be that they don't seem to do [much] elemental damage. Since we're better at wielding weapons than TM, and weapons do more physical damage, training TM doesn't feel like it offers a significant advantage over weapon combat. That and the fact that magic's tertiary means the choice between TM and any other type of spell has never felt like a tough one. Typically, augmentation, debilitation, utility and warding take priority over TM.
Rebuke: Very accurate and solid damage. The knockdown makes it one of my favorite multi-strike TM spells in the game. Has great synergy with weapons.
SMH: I didn't pick it up in 3.1 for many of the reasons mentioned above. The biggest reason for me is probably damage. In invasions, I find it more effective to use weapon attacks to quickly take down a horde of enemies.
STRA: Can't comment. I haven't used it in a while.
If I were to make one general critique about our TM spells, it would be that they don't seem to do [much] elemental damage. Since we're better at wielding weapons than TM, and weapons do more physical damage, training TM doesn't feel like it offers a significant advantage over weapon combat. That and the fact that magic's tertiary means the choice between TM and any other type of spell has never felt like a tough one. Typically, augmentation, debilitation, utility and warding take priority over TM.
<training TM doesn't feel like it offers a significant advantage over weapon combat.
I see this or things like it mentioned every now and again (something similar was recently also mentioned in the TM Feedback thread for Necros) and I'm not sure I understand it. I'm almost never doing either/or, but am almost always doing both at once.
Target spell.
Attack until spell is ready.
Cast.
Repeat.
While I agree that it's nice to have spells that do different damage types (although questionably nice given the current state of armor), really I don't see why TM and weapons should be seen as competing with each other. Aren't they meant to be more complementary than competitive? Do they need to do equal amounts of damage? I could easily see some guilds (ex: War Mages) doing more damage with their TM spells than others (ex: Paladins.) The tradeoff being, in theory, that Paladins (or other non-TM-specialist guilds) would have more capability with mundane weapons.
Should back-to-back castings of Footman's Strike deal equal amounts of damage as attacking with the weapon (assuming all attributes are equal?)
I see this or things like it mentioned every now and again (something similar was recently also mentioned in the TM Feedback thread for Necros) and I'm not sure I understand it. I'm almost never doing either/or, but am almost always doing both at once.
Target spell.
Attack until spell is ready.
Cast.
Repeat.
While I agree that it's nice to have spells that do different damage types (although questionably nice given the current state of armor), really I don't see why TM and weapons should be seen as competing with each other. Aren't they meant to be more complementary than competitive? Do they need to do equal amounts of damage? I could easily see some guilds (ex: War Mages) doing more damage with their TM spells than others (ex: Paladins.) The tradeoff being, in theory, that Paladins (or other non-TM-specialist guilds) would have more capability with mundane weapons.
Should back-to-back castings of Footman's Strike deal equal amounts of damage as attacking with the weapon (assuming all attributes are equal?)
For training you're right but that's not really what I meant. Pre-3.0 TM let me hit non-corporeal undead when I didn't have holy weapon charges or a bless, so it filled a different role for me than weapons. Now that bless is easy to come by (a great thing) TM doesn't really fill any role that my weapons don't since my weapons do all types of physical damage already. Rebuke is the exception, but the knockdown isn't like HoT in the sense that it doesn't knock down if the target blocks it. Still, the design direction with rebuke (TM spells that fill more roles than damage) gave me hope for the future of paladin TM.
To put it another way, the things against which I use my TM I have no issues massacring in the first place as in they usually die before my target matrix is complete. TM is never a priority against things that present a challenge. That's not really a problem at ~200- ranks, but that's just because of how exp works. Secondary and primary skills don't really start to pull ahead until later on. Rekon touched on the issue and he's a lot bigger than my paladin.
>Necromancers
I haven't read their thread, but they're the polar opposite since they rely primarily on TM to do damage. If their issues are the same as when I was playing my necro more, BLB's damage doesn't warrant the heavy cost and vivisection's damage is relatively weak. I don't think anyone can say CFB (zombies) and QE (constructs) are weak. SV and USOL are great and ACS is good in the same way FST is good (few weaknesses). Also, necro spell messaging is some of my favorite in the game.
>Could we please get a new range boost spell that increases our range/Tm skill.
Ironically, I think clerics would want this for us more than we would. LOL
To put it another way, the things against which I use my TM I have no issues massacring in the first place as in they usually die before my target matrix is complete. TM is never a priority against things that present a challenge. That's not really a problem at ~200- ranks, but that's just because of how exp works. Secondary and primary skills don't really start to pull ahead until later on. Rekon touched on the issue and he's a lot bigger than my paladin.
>Necromancers
I haven't read their thread, but they're the polar opposite since they rely primarily on TM to do damage. If their issues are the same as when I was playing my necro more, BLB's damage doesn't warrant the heavy cost and vivisection's damage is relatively weak. I don't think anyone can say CFB (zombies) and QE (constructs) are weak. SV and USOL are great and ACS is good in the same way FST is good (few weaknesses). Also, necro spell messaging is some of my favorite in the game.
>Could we please get a new range boost spell that increases our range/Tm skill.
Ironically, I think clerics would want this for us more than we would. LOL
Smite horde could use some damage adjustment; as mentioned it does seem "meh" even with hitting stuff way under ability. Rebuke i've been pretty happy with since its change. Footman's strike is decent and I like the adjustment with weapon choices with it. Strange Arrow seems to be working as it always has pretty good.
>>I see this or things like it mentioned every now and again (something similar was recently also mentioned in the TM Feedback thread for Necros) and I'm not sure I understand it. I'm almost never doing either/or, but am almost always doing both at once.
If you're REALLY trying to put a hurt on something with TM, you're pouring oodles of mana into it. Which means either harnessing, or cambrinth. You aren't going to be prep/swing/swing/swing/cast if you're serious. Training sure, farming critters maybe (odds are you'll melee em to death before full target), and futzing around in an underleveled invasion yeah. Serious work, not so much.
Samsaren
If you're REALLY trying to put a hurt on something with TM, you're pouring oodles of mana into it. Which means either harnessing, or cambrinth. You aren't going to be prep/swing/swing/swing/cast if you're serious. Training sure, farming critters maybe (odds are you'll melee em to death before full target), and futzing around in an underleveled invasion yeah. Serious work, not so much.
Samsaren
FST:
I dislike the 'held weapon' requirement. If it defaulted to blunt for brawling empty handed, I'd use it. But as is, the ability to change damage types seems more of a useless novelty than a consistent boon. I invoked STRA instead and don't plan on taking FST aside from a prerequisite chaser.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
I dislike the 'held weapon' requirement. If it defaulted to blunt for brawling empty handed, I'd use it. But as is, the ability to change damage types seems more of a useless novelty than a consistent boon. I invoked STRA instead and don't plan on taking FST aside from a prerequisite chaser.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
>>I dislike the 'held weapon' requirement. If it defaulted to blunt for brawling empty handed, I'd use it. But as is, the ability to change damage types seems more of a useless novelty than a consistent boon. I invoked STRA instead and don't plan on taking FST aside from a prerequisite chaser. <<
Agreed, I think FST would be cool if it defaulted to the Paladins shield stats or something like that.
Agreed, I think FST would be cool if it defaulted to the Paladins shield stats or something like that.
