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I've been GR'd several times with several of my characters. Was fun, led to RP on occasion, and was just greiferdom on others; even this was funny. No biggie either way. I've GR'd with all my characters. Led to RP on some occasions, report-ville on others. Don't be stupid and leave your junk on the ground. Death is not an excuse, nor is lack of hunting partners, friends, etc.
I believe the huge text/lore (and the lore was lacking forever) beef is that other players get panty-bunched because there is no -real- IC/IG repurcussions for much of the corruptness that can occur. Instead, they say the ability to GR, lie, steal, [ play a corrupt Paladin ] should be mechanically removed or altered so that you can't be a Paladin, which I also believe is wrong. This logic is just as dumb as the thieves guild getting IC character dinged for getting caught stealing while my MM can just pay fines and face NO OTHER side effect, as just one example. Should we remove stealing too? Or should we allow and encourage development to the underlying systems to reflect both sides?
Let Lyras win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdaOeAxy0GU
<< Seriously, you are debating looting creatures vs. graverobbing a PC as a moral fulcrum? That rates as a whole lot of stupid in my book and not worthy of discussion or comparison. Even if you are inclined to discuss the issue from a paladin perspective, look to the actual resources produced by the paladin guild and insert some semblence if knowledge into the discussion.
>>
It's just one smaller avenue of discussion in the larger argument of mechanics and how they affect the IC environment.
Really, I (The player) boil it down to this: The Code is the end of things crafted by mortals -- You are -supposed- to follow it, yes, but there is no magical repercussions for that. It is not like the stuff we get soul hits for: That's the stuff directly tied to Paladins' Immortal-granted abilities.
Really, though, I find myself more than a little disappointed by the parties who push for 'The Paladin code allows for only -one- way of Paladining' in much the same way as that long held (and thankfully disintegrating) supposition that Empaths should be nothing but shiny happy altruistic pacifists.
-Iskhhr
"What is the worth of one man's honor?"
>>
It's just one smaller avenue of discussion in the larger argument of mechanics and how they affect the IC environment.
Really, I (The player) boil it down to this: The Code is the end of things crafted by mortals -- You are -supposed- to follow it, yes, but there is no magical repercussions for that. It is not like the stuff we get soul hits for: That's the stuff directly tied to Paladins' Immortal-granted abilities.
Really, though, I find myself more than a little disappointed by the parties who push for 'The Paladin code allows for only -one- way of Paladining' in much the same way as that long held (and thankfully disintegrating) supposition that Empaths should be nothing but shiny happy altruistic pacifists.
-Iskhhr
"What is the worth of one man's honor?"
There's a serious problem when Glemm and I are on the same side of an argument.
But seriously, he's right. Do it if you want but call a spade a spade. You're still committing murder and effectively graverobbing people even if the mechanics are not punishing you for doing so.
If your character is all about loopholes in his ethical code then come up with a reason for why that is, but you can't change the essential nature of the act and a genuinely good-hearted person would give a damn.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
But seriously, he's right. Do it if you want but call a spade a spade. You're still committing murder and effectively graverobbing people even if the mechanics are not punishing you for doing so.
If your character is all about loopholes in his ethical code then come up with a reason for why that is, but you can't change the essential nature of the act and a genuinely good-hearted person would give a damn.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
<<Really, though, I find myself more than a little disappointed by the parties who push for 'The Paladin code allows for only -one- way of Paladining' in much the same way as that long held (and thankfully disintegrating) supposition that Empaths should be nothing but shiny happy altruistic pacifists.
Many different ways to play a paladin. Even if you decide to follow the Code, there are many variables within the Code that allow a wide range of playability. Nothing requires that any paladin follow the Code. I happen to do it along with some others. I promote following the Code IG because that sort of fits my character.
For all that we know, the Code is going away and replaced by the "true Code".
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
Many different ways to play a paladin. Even if you decide to follow the Code, there are many variables within the Code that allow a wide range of playability. Nothing requires that any paladin follow the Code. I happen to do it along with some others. I promote following the Code IG because that sort of fits my character.
For all that we know, the Code is going away and replaced by the "true Code".
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
<< Many different ways to play a paladin. Even if you decide to follow the Code, there are many variables within the Code that allow a wide range of playability. Nothing requires that any paladin follow the Code. I happen to do it along with some others. I promote following the Code IG because that sort of fits my character. >>
Apologies if my point wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to disparage your RP or others, Madigan (and honestly, it is done well in most cases. The Code is first and foremost a RP tool IMO) its just sometimes it seems people are getting a bit relentless in the pursuit of associating Code with OOC mechanisms to make you follow it. The Code was written after the Guild was formed and individuals started getting picked by the Immortals as champions.
-Iskhhr
"What is the worth of one man's honor?"
Apologies if my point wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to disparage your RP or others, Madigan (and honestly, it is done well in most cases. The Code is first and foremost a RP tool IMO) its just sometimes it seems people are getting a bit relentless in the pursuit of associating Code with OOC mechanisms to make you follow it. The Code was written after the Guild was formed and individuals started getting picked by the Immortals as champions.
-Iskhhr
"What is the worth of one man's honor?"
<<so it's 28 days later now
No, that would be JMF actually applying guild lore into your logic of killing creatures = murder. In this particular instance using the Code, the first line of the first section of the Code in particular.
Now, you can argue that you don't want to follow the Code, and that is all good. Nothing requires that you do. However, to make a credible argument here that killing creatures = murder you will need to bring more to the table than sarcastic statements in response to an actual debate.
I am not sure why you are so worked up over this issue. You have an opinion. I want you to support that opinion with some guild-fo-lore. You either don't want to do that are you can not do it. Nothing personal at all from my end, as I have always (and still do) hold you in very high regard.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
No, that would be JMF actually applying guild lore into your logic of killing creatures = murder. In this particular instance using the Code, the first line of the first section of the Code in particular.
Now, you can argue that you don't want to follow the Code, and that is all good. Nothing requires that you do. However, to make a credible argument here that killing creatures = murder you will need to bring more to the table than sarcastic statements in response to an actual debate.
I am not sure why you are so worked up over this issue. You have an opinion. I want you to support that opinion with some guild-fo-lore. You either don't want to do that are you can not do it. Nothing personal at all from my end, as I have always (and still do) hold you in very high regard.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
>> However, to make a credible argument here that killing creatures = murder you will need to bring more to the table than sarcastic statements in response to an actual debate.
People. Killing people is murder. Regardless of whether it is justified murder, it is still murder.
Again, do it or don't do it, but call a spade a spade.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
People. Killing people is murder. Regardless of whether it is justified murder, it is still murder.
Again, do it or don't do it, but call a spade a spade.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
<<People. Killing people is murder. Regardless of whether it is justified murder, it is still murder.
See below.
<<You have an opinion. I want you to support that opinion with some guild-fo-lore. You either don't want to do that or you can not do it.
So, support your argument. What leads you to believe that killing a creature is considered murder in the game? In particular, what leads you to believe that the paladin guild calls killing creatures murder?
I will give you a bit of a hint that actually supports and kills your argument. Paladins take a soulhit when they kill "innocent" creatures (not players, but creatures that are tagged innocent). The Code requires that paladins uphold the law, so if you can argue that killing creatures is against the law...then your argument probably has some weight as well. I could be wrong, but to my knowledge there is no guild-lore that supports your position.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
See below.
<<You have an opinion. I want you to support that opinion with some guild-fo-lore. You either don't want to do that or you can not do it.
So, support your argument. What leads you to believe that killing a creature is considered murder in the game? In particular, what leads you to believe that the paladin guild calls killing creatures murder?
I will give you a bit of a hint that actually supports and kills your argument. Paladins take a soulhit when they kill "innocent" creatures (not players, but creatures that are tagged innocent). The Code requires that paladins uphold the law, so if you can argue that killing creatures is against the law...then your argument probably has some weight as well. I could be wrong, but to my knowledge there is no guild-lore that supports your position.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
Debates about whether killing mobs is morally permissible miss the point. Adventurers are members of a society - even the ones that regard themselves as outsiders - fighting against evil that comes from outside the society. The things outside are not "people" in any meaningful sense, though they may act like people.
The moral spirit in which DR was conceived was "good adventurers vs evil outsiders." Arguing that we're ruthless sociopaths because we kill orcs is inappropriately applying a radical modern perspective to a setting in which it doesn't make sense.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
The moral spirit in which DR was conceived was "good adventurers vs evil outsiders." Arguing that we're ruthless sociopaths because we kill orcs is inappropriately applying a radical modern perspective to a setting in which it doesn't make sense.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
<<No, that would be JMF actually applying guild lore into your logic of killing creatures = murder. In this particular instance using the Code, the first line of the first section of the Code in particular.>>
I like how in your world, people are "creatures". Just say that it's an OOC distinction made for a video game and admit that.
There's no IC premise that you can use which distinguishes you taking the items from a pirate that asks you to "guard his things" when he departs versus a player who asks you to "guard his things" when he departs. Zero.
<<Now, you can argue that you don't want to follow the Code, and that is all good. Nothing requires that you do. However, to make a credible argument here that killing creatures = murder you will need to bring more to the table than sarcastic statements in response to an actual debate.>>
If we were talking about "creatures", I would agree, but we aren't. We are talking about members of the primary races of Elanthia, and how killing one is awesome and expected but killing the other is terrible.
<<I am not sure why you are so worked up over this issue. You have an opinion. I want you to support that opinion with some guild-fo-lore.>>
That's just it- there's no IC lore that separates the paying Simutronics customer from the nonpaying NPC humanoid. The burden of proof is on you, not me, since you're dictating your entire character's roleplay on OOC viewpoints.
<<Nothing personal at all from my end, as I have always (and still do) hold you in very high regard.>>
I love you, but you came out swinging and in order to appease my friends who point at laugh at my failings, I must do the same.
-Mr. Glemm
I like how in your world, people are "creatures". Just say that it's an OOC distinction made for a video game and admit that.
There's no IC premise that you can use which distinguishes you taking the items from a pirate that asks you to "guard his things" when he departs versus a player who asks you to "guard his things" when he departs. Zero.
<<Now, you can argue that you don't want to follow the Code, and that is all good. Nothing requires that you do. However, to make a credible argument here that killing creatures = murder you will need to bring more to the table than sarcastic statements in response to an actual debate.>>
If we were talking about "creatures", I would agree, but we aren't. We are talking about members of the primary races of Elanthia, and how killing one is awesome and expected but killing the other is terrible.
<<I am not sure why you are so worked up over this issue. You have an opinion. I want you to support that opinion with some guild-fo-lore.>>
That's just it- there's no IC lore that separates the paying Simutronics customer from the nonpaying NPC humanoid. The burden of proof is on you, not me, since you're dictating your entire character's roleplay on OOC viewpoints.
<<Nothing personal at all from my end, as I have always (and still do) hold you in very high regard.>>
I love you, but you came out swinging and in order to appease my friends who point at laugh at my failings, I must do the same.
-Mr. Glemm
<<Debates about whether killing mobs is morally permissible miss the point. Adventurers are members of a society - even the ones that regard themselves as outsiders - fighting against evil that comes from outside the society. The things outside are not "people" in any meaningful sense, though they may act like people.>>
So, player characters are members of some elite class? What class would that be, exactly? Furthermore, how are other NPCs, like assassins in undershard, to take a random "cirtter", not part of that class? They seem to be part of the thief guild, right? Or are we assuming that the ability to join a guild is what separates us from the rest of the cretins? (because that's basically the only thing I can think of that separates a player character from anything else)
<<The moral spirit in which DR was conceived was "good adventurers vs evil outsiders." Arguing that we're ruthless sociopaths because we kill orcs is inappropriately applying a radical modern perspective to a setting in which it doesn't make sense.>>
What DR was concieved as versus what it is today are two totally different things.
Again, simply admit it (not necessarily YOU). There's no IC way to justify the special treatment of player characters over NPC characters when they're part of the same social hierarcy, guild, race, gender, skin color, or whatever else you want to use to try to draw distinctions between the two (when there really aren't any).
Just say "it's a video game and I don't want my character to hurt other players". Admit that it's a OOC/IC mixed boundary and that your character uses that OOC consideration when RPing in Elanthia.
-Mr. Glemm
So, player characters are members of some elite class? What class would that be, exactly? Furthermore, how are other NPCs, like assassins in undershard, to take a random "cirtter", not part of that class? They seem to be part of the thief guild, right? Or are we assuming that the ability to join a guild is what separates us from the rest of the cretins? (because that's basically the only thing I can think of that separates a player character from anything else)
<<The moral spirit in which DR was conceived was "good adventurers vs evil outsiders." Arguing that we're ruthless sociopaths because we kill orcs is inappropriately applying a radical modern perspective to a setting in which it doesn't make sense.>>
What DR was concieved as versus what it is today are two totally different things.
Again, simply admit it (not necessarily YOU). There's no IC way to justify the special treatment of player characters over NPC characters when they're part of the same social hierarcy, guild, race, gender, skin color, or whatever else you want to use to try to draw distinctions between the two (when there really aren't any).
Just say "it's a video game and I don't want my character to hurt other players". Admit that it's a OOC/IC mixed boundary and that your character uses that OOC consideration when RPing in Elanthia.
-Mr. Glemm
>> Just say "it's a video game and I don't want my character to hurt other players". Admit that it's a OOC/IC mixed boundary and that your character uses that OOC consideration when RPing in Elanthia.
^^ this
I think people are just really unwilling to consider the idea that an alley thug in Throne City, who can die/depart repeatedly until they walk just like an adventurer theoretically can, is anything but a juicy little chunk of code that dispenses XP.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
^^ this
I think people are just really unwilling to consider the idea that an alley thug in Throne City, who can die/depart repeatedly until they walk just like an adventurer theoretically can, is anything but a juicy little chunk of code that dispenses XP.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
>Just say "it's a video game and I don't want my character to hurt other players". Admit that it's a OOC/IC mixed boundary and that your character uses that OOC consideration when RPing in Elanthia.
I don't think that's it at all. I don't consider it murder if a person kills someone in the act of justifiable self-defense. These people/creatures/orcs/NPCs/etc are trying to kill innocent people. If the goblins weren't too stupid to wander down a path and through a gate, the crossing would be invaded constantly.
I don't think that's it at all. I don't consider it murder if a person kills someone in the act of justifiable self-defense. These people/creatures/orcs/NPCs/etc are trying to kill innocent people. If the goblins weren't too stupid to wander down a path and through a gate, the crossing would be invaded constantly.
<<I don't think that's it at all. I don't consider it murder if a person kills someone in the act of justifiable self-defense. These people/creatures/orcs/NPCs/etc are trying to kill innocent people. If the goblins weren't too stupid to wander down a path and through a gate, the crossing would be invaded constantly.>>
Which brings us back to how it's then OK to graverob people who advance you first. I'm more than willing to follow this line of reasoning (as it makes the most sense) but let's follow it to conclusion if we are going to follow it at all.
-Mr. Glemm
Which brings us back to how it's then OK to graverob people who advance you first. I'm more than willing to follow this line of reasoning (as it makes the most sense) but let's follow it to conclusion if we are going to follow it at all.
-Mr. Glemm
Personally I agree with both Madigan and Mazrian here.
It's a given that the humanioids mentioned are in fact bad guys. It's easily justified if need be too I'd think. PC's don't charge folks wordlessly attacking to kill 24/7 when you walk by them.
It's pretty easy to incorporate the big picture of Elanthia and say that these bad guys prey on the unseen masses of common folks. We head into the enemy territories to put down the throngs of baddies in an effort to help out the poor farmers and such. We recover thier ill gotten gains and everyone is happy. Okay maybe not mommy and daddy Throne city thug but hey, they can go be a commoner if they don't want that kind of life.
One persons mass murderer can be another persons hero. In DR we are generally defaulted to the hero role.
Leucius
Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
It's a given that the humanioids mentioned are in fact bad guys. It's easily justified if need be too I'd think. PC's don't charge folks wordlessly attacking to kill 24/7 when you walk by them.
It's pretty easy to incorporate the big picture of Elanthia and say that these bad guys prey on the unseen masses of common folks. We head into the enemy territories to put down the throngs of baddies in an effort to help out the poor farmers and such. We recover thier ill gotten gains and everyone is happy. Okay maybe not mommy and daddy Throne city thug but hey, they can go be a commoner if they don't want that kind of life.
One persons mass murderer can be another persons hero. In DR we are generally defaulted to the hero role.
Leucius
Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
There's also the question of turf.
You are living in a dangerous feudal society where you really are constantly at risk for your life from a wide variety of natural and manmade dangers, nevermind the occasional adventuring psychopath.
Someone with a weapon drawn and trussed up in armor walks into your home looking like they want to throw down. What do you do?
If anything, they're the ones acting in self-defense. If someone barged into your home with a weapon, would you wait for them to take a swing at you before you responded?
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
You are living in a dangerous feudal society where you really are constantly at risk for your life from a wide variety of natural and manmade dangers, nevermind the occasional adventuring psychopath.
Someone with a weapon drawn and trussed up in armor walks into your home looking like they want to throw down. What do you do?
If anything, they're the ones acting in self-defense. If someone barged into your home with a weapon, would you wait for them to take a swing at you before you responded?
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
<<I love you, but you came out swinging and in order to appease my friends who point at laugh at my failings, I must do the same.
Hah, fair enough sir.
<<since you're dictating your entire character's roleplay on OOC viewpoints.
This one bothers me. Sorry if I have given anyone the impression that the way I view things or do things is the "right way". I really hate it when people do that, and if I left that impression...absolutely my bad. Everyone should play their paladin in the way that is fun and makes sense to them.
I do have some strong fellings when folks express opinions about our guild that are simply not supported by the guild lore. I think this stems from the fact that many people believe paladins always have to be passive and "good" using their view of "good". My view is that this is just not the case. A paladin can be a very aggressive character under the right circumstances.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
Hah, fair enough sir.
<<since you're dictating your entire character's roleplay on OOC viewpoints.
This one bothers me. Sorry if I have given anyone the impression that the way I view things or do things is the "right way". I really hate it when people do that, and if I left that impression...absolutely my bad. Everyone should play their paladin in the way that is fun and makes sense to them.
I do have some strong fellings when folks express opinions about our guild that are simply not supported by the guild lore. I think this stems from the fact that many people believe paladins always have to be passive and "good" using their view of "good". My view is that this is just not the case. A paladin can be a very aggressive character under the right circumstances.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
>Which brings us back to how it's then OK to graverob people who advance you first. I'm more than willing to follow this line of reasoning (as it makes the most sense) but let's follow it to conclusion if we are going to follow it at all.
Not exactly. There's a difference between something trying to kill you versus something trying to kill anyone it can.
Not exactly. There's a difference between something trying to kill you versus something trying to kill anyone it can.
Corsairs also don't advance on people unless advanced upon first IIRC, since Glemm keeps using them as an example.
I personally think the alley thugs are a better illustrator since they are basically ICly identical to a Thief PC and they are apparently "important" enough for everyone to notice when they walk.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
I personally think the alley thugs are a better illustrator since they are basically ICly identical to a Thief PC and they are apparently "important" enough for everyone to notice when they walk.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
<<Not exactly. There's a difference between something trying to kill you versus something trying to kill anyone it can.>>
So now it's about hostility. It brings us back to 28 days later. If they act like a rabid zombie it's okay to loot their corpse.
Of course, they don't kill their own kind, they only kill people that venture into "their" area, the same way we kill things that "invade" our cities.
Maybe that gelv cyclops is just trying to get that next rank of 2HE to circle. YOU EVER THINK ABOUT THAT?
Still not seeing the answer here, since everyone is acting like it's so obvious.
-Mr. Glemm
So now it's about hostility. It brings us back to 28 days later. If they act like a rabid zombie it's okay to loot their corpse.
Of course, they don't kill their own kind, they only kill people that venture into "their" area, the same way we kill things that "invade" our cities.
Maybe that gelv cyclops is just trying to get that next rank of 2HE to circle. YOU EVER THINK ABOUT THAT?
Still not seeing the answer here, since everyone is acting like it's so obvious.
-Mr. Glemm
Cael: Plenty of guild lore to allow you to engage things (humanoid or otherwise) first. Back to the basic point. The opinions you are expressing are simply not supported by what we know of the paladin guild. Now, whether folks follow that stuff or not is up to them.
People are more than welcome to play a paladin that will not engage a humanoid first under any circumstances. That actually might be a neat role play. A bit too restrictive for me, but maybe interesting to someone.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
People are more than welcome to play a paladin that will not engage a humanoid first under any circumstances. That actually might be a neat role play. A bit too restrictive for me, but maybe interesting to someone.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
<<Cael: Plenty of guild lore to allow you to engage things (humanoid or otherwise) first. Back to the basic point. The opinions you are expressing are simply not supported by what we know of the paladin guild. Now, whether folks follow that stuff or not is up to them.>>
Again, what guild lore dictates it being bad to take a player's things versus it being OK to take a NPC's things if they are part of the same IC (everything)?
If this is the case, then it's cool for paladins to graverob any PC that advances them first- that is unless someone can expound upon Mazrain's "PCs are part of an adventurer caste" thing.
-Mr. Glemm
Again, what guild lore dictates it being bad to take a player's things versus it being OK to take a NPC's things if they are part of the same IC (everything)?
If this is the case, then it's cool for paladins to graverob any PC that advances them first- that is unless someone can expound upon Mazrain's "PCs are part of an adventurer caste" thing.
-Mr. Glemm
Glemm,
>>What DR was concieved as versus what it is today are two totally different things. <<
No, they really aren't. The game is essentially the same as it was. Some of the players are a little older and more sophisticated and want to inject an element of moral relativism. That's fine and great, but it's a personal choice that won't fit most characters.
>>There's no IC way to justify the special treatment of player characters over NPC characters when they're part of the same social hierarcy, guild, race, gender, skin color, or whatever else you want to use to try to draw distinctions between the two (when there really aren't any). <<
This is a distinctly modern attitude.
>>I think people are just really unwilling to consider the idea that an alley thug in Throne City, who can die/depart repeatedly until they walk just like an adventurer theoretically can, is anything but a juicy little chunk of code that dispenses XP.<<
An alley thug? He's impoverished trash squatting in the ruins of civilization who would just as soon kill a decent man as look at him. I'm keeping the peace. It's a laudable deed to kill him before he harms someone.
Is that a horribly skewed point of view to a modern man? Of course. But that's DR's moral base. DR's story is told from a very specific perspective.
And at the very least there is the fact that 99.9% of everything we kill was trying to kill us first.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
>>What DR was concieved as versus what it is today are two totally different things. <<
No, they really aren't. The game is essentially the same as it was. Some of the players are a little older and more sophisticated and want to inject an element of moral relativism. That's fine and great, but it's a personal choice that won't fit most characters.
>>There's no IC way to justify the special treatment of player characters over NPC characters when they're part of the same social hierarcy, guild, race, gender, skin color, or whatever else you want to use to try to draw distinctions between the two (when there really aren't any). <<
This is a distinctly modern attitude.
>>I think people are just really unwilling to consider the idea that an alley thug in Throne City, who can die/depart repeatedly until they walk just like an adventurer theoretically can, is anything but a juicy little chunk of code that dispenses XP.<<
An alley thug? He's impoverished trash squatting in the ruins of civilization who would just as soon kill a decent man as look at him. I'm keeping the peace. It's a laudable deed to kill him before he harms someone.
Is that a horribly skewed point of view to a modern man? Of course. But that's DR's moral base. DR's story is told from a very specific perspective.
And at the very least there is the fact that 99.9% of everything we kill was trying to kill us first.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
>> The opinions you are expressing are simply not supported by what we know of the paladin guild.
Well, yes. Paladins seem to be a group more concerned in modern times about playing ethical hopscotch than actually behaving like decent people.
I, and presumably Glemm, am just trying to get you to think about what your character is doing and ask yourself if marching into someone else's home and murdering them for their precious loot is really a moral thing for a Paladin to do. I don't think that's very Just, Righteous, or Good, but that's kind of the argument. So far all I've seen is people unable to get past the idea of an NPC being anything more than a juicy XP-bit.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
Well, yes. Paladins seem to be a group more concerned in modern times about playing ethical hopscotch than actually behaving like decent people.
I, and presumably Glemm, am just trying to get you to think about what your character is doing and ask yourself if marching into someone else's home and murdering them for their precious loot is really a moral thing for a Paladin to do. I don't think that's very Just, Righteous, or Good, but that's kind of the argument. So far all I've seen is people unable to get past the idea of an NPC being anything more than a juicy XP-bit.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
>>There's also the question of turf.
Manifest. Destiny.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
Manifest. Destiny.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
<<Still not seeing the answer here, since everyone is acting like it's so obvious.
If we are talking about graverobbing, guild lore does not say a paladin can not graverob to my knowledge. I personally think it is bad form, but more power to you if you want to do it.
The item that triggered me was the whole killing creatures = murder.
This whole discussion was also kicked around when Smite Foe was being considered to be used on everyone. In the past, you could only use it on creatures.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
If we are talking about graverobbing, guild lore does not say a paladin can not graverob to my knowledge. I personally think it is bad form, but more power to you if you want to do it.
The item that triggered me was the whole killing creatures = murder.
This whole discussion was also kicked around when Smite Foe was being considered to be used on everyone. In the past, you could only use it on creatures.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
>>I, and presumably Glemm, am just trying to get you to think about what your character is doing and ask yourself if marching into someone else's home and murdering them for their precious loot is really a moral thing for a Paladin to do.
Are we marching into their home or are they invading our lands?
Are we marching into their home or are they invading our lands?
<<No, they really aren't. The game is essentially the same as it was. Some of the players are a little older and more sophisticated and want to inject an element of moral relativism. That's fine and great, but it's a personal choice that won't fit most characters.>>
I don't get how anyone is trying to make this about moral relativism. It's not. It's about people treating PCs and NPCs differently yet acting like it's ok and justified by using some nonexistent IC "lore".
<<This is a distinctly modern attitude.>>
What does "modern attitudes" have to do with discerning PCs from NPCs in a video game again? I'm not playing the Victorian Age internet.
<<An alley thug? He's impoverished trash squatting in the ruins of civilization who would just as soon kill a decent man as look at him. I'm keeping the peace. It's a laudable deed to kill him before he harms someone.>>
Then, it's cool to take a player's stuff if they fit that same designation.
<<And at the very least there is the fact that 99.9% of everything we kill was trying to kill us first.>>
... since you just happened to wander into that hunting area to kill things to gain experience.
-Mr. Glemm
I don't get how anyone is trying to make this about moral relativism. It's not. It's about people treating PCs and NPCs differently yet acting like it's ok and justified by using some nonexistent IC "lore".
<<This is a distinctly modern attitude.>>
What does "modern attitudes" have to do with discerning PCs from NPCs in a video game again? I'm not playing the Victorian Age internet.
<<An alley thug? He's impoverished trash squatting in the ruins of civilization who would just as soon kill a decent man as look at him. I'm keeping the peace. It's a laudable deed to kill him before he harms someone.>>
Then, it's cool to take a player's stuff if they fit that same designation.
<<And at the very least there is the fact that 99.9% of everything we kill was trying to kill us first.>>
... since you just happened to wander into that hunting area to kill things to gain experience.
-Mr. Glemm
>> If we are talking about graverobbing, guild lore does not say a paladin can not graverob to my knowledge.
When did theft become acceptable? I missed this memo. Pretty sure my Paladin's soul is still black from the last time he tried to steal something.
>> Are we marching into their home or are they invading our lands?
In several places, you are basically going out of your way to go where they are residing to murderize them.
Corsairs are a good example of that. Arguably alley thugs, or Undershard thugs. Swain I would say count too, at least when you're wandering into the tavern.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
When did theft become acceptable? I missed this memo. Pretty sure my Paladin's soul is still black from the last time he tried to steal something.
>> Are we marching into their home or are they invading our lands?
In several places, you are basically going out of your way to go where they are residing to murderize them.
Corsairs are a good example of that. Arguably alley thugs, or Undershard thugs. Swain I would say count too, at least when you're wandering into the tavern.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
<<I don't think that really needs to be expounded much. PCs are part of an adventurer caste.>>
Source please, as that would settle many things in this thread.
<<If we are talking about graverobbing, guild lore does not say a paladin can not graverob to my knowledge. I personally think it is bad form, but more power to you if you want to do it.>>
What makes graverobbing a npc more acceptable than graverobbing a pc? How does your character know the difference whatsoever?
-Mr. Glemm
Source please, as that would settle many things in this thread.
<<If we are talking about graverobbing, guild lore does not say a paladin can not graverob to my knowledge. I personally think it is bad form, but more power to you if you want to do it.>>
What makes graverobbing a npc more acceptable than graverobbing a pc? How does your character know the difference whatsoever?
-Mr. Glemm
>>This whole thread reeks of RP elitism.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
