::points at Calemnon's post::

Hey Lennon, this might be your answer for why you lost to Redarch.

[/tease]

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Absorb...
and Transform!!!

Here I tracked it down.

Posted from this link.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=4&topic=20&message=584

Right...If you use a halberd type as the jousting weapon then that is the skill it uses to determine weapon bonus. If you use a pike type it uses that skill.

GM Jeremael

The lances from the racks appraise as "halberd / heavy thrown". Any competition using the rack version of the lance should take this into consideration, apparently this is not necessarily the case. Personally I train both nearly equally so I'm not the best test subject for this case. However, I would think that pike would be the most appropriate skill for jousting as a lance is effectively just a pike with a handle. The damage from the attack being caused primarily by the impetus of the horse and rider. It makes sense that impact and puncture of the weapon would also factor in.

Cheers - Cyllwdd

> and for the record those blunted lances are pike weapons

Interesting. That would explain the trouble Calemnon is noticing. Any idea when were they changed from halberd/HT to pike? As someone in the "Mounts" folder mentioned it was thought (from weapon app's, etc) that halberd skill was a suitable for jousting (in DR.)

Now I'm curious...

Cheers - Cyllwdd

>there are a several kinds that appraise halberd/HT but teach and use pike skill in combat, maybe its something ssra is going to fix

That explains it... the buggy lances.

All other lances have been fixed so that if they app as halberd, they teach halberd. These blunted lances are the only ones left that are still bugged. All 1 handed lances in the world teach halberd, except these buggy blunted jousting lances.

I posted in Bugs folder under combat, at least. Hopefully Ssra will read that and get it fixed.

If not, we can nag him repeatedly till he does.

Cavalier Calemnon

>I propose a new weapon skill: Lances
Let people who train Pike/Halberd for jousting purposes be able to transfer skill to the new skill (a la music split)
Anything that's called a lance will now app as a lance and train lances. Pikes will be the big ol two handed spears, and halberds will be halberds. Problem solved.

I'm ALL for that idea, and have suggested it in the past. But considering how not likely this is to happen, might as well do what can be done to fix buggy lances.


Cavalier Calemnon

Well, I did my first jousting yesterday evening and I was soundly thrashed by any and all noble paladins on the field. Some were much lower (circle wise) than me and I am certain have less ranks in shield. I must say that I really like the set up which focuses on a narrow area of training that accomplishes a particular result. Why should Madigan all of the sudden be good at jousting just because of his circle? The obvious answer is that he shouldn't and that is the way the system works in my opinion.

Anyway, I certaintly had a blast and look forward to more competitive jousts after I train some bloody halberts and pikes!

Madigan

<<Gadorr hitting Relayer in the melon, but then losing a joust with Phanton who is quite a bit lower. Rekon trained his shield to 50 more than mine since the last time we jousted Gad beat him twice in a row. Wonky.>>

Take that old man!! :P

Phanton

Umm where did you get it and how long you had it?


Cavalier Calemnon

<<Hey Lennon, this might be your answer for why you lost to Redarch.>>

Never lost to Redarch, lost to Ruslip, another damn dwerf.

<<Then it came to mind that the jousting formula might be entirely pike based with no emphasis on halberd whatsoever.>>

I have had the opposite experience. I have pike about 100 ranks higher than halberd and was losing to someone with 80 less halberd (to my pike) and over 100 less pike than me.

What seems to be the deciding factor (oddly enough) is parry.

When jousting Ruslip, I had more shield, weapon skill and equal evasion. He had more parry (by nearly 20 or 30 ranks).

With stance shield I won. With stance parry, he won. With stance evasion I believe results varied (it was a while ago so Im trying to recollect). When we split stances between shield and evasion, oddly enough he won.

No clue about the formula, to me jousting makes no sense whatsoever.


Big as Pebbles, Strong as Talc, Smarter than you, I am - Lennon's Bulldog

<<I don't see how evasion would factor in at all... the horse's evasion maybe. Seems like it would be hard to influence the enemy's attack other than using your arms (since you're sitting and all).>>

None of the jousting formula makes much sense.

It seems to me that jousting was created Post Hoc, as a system to help increase the purchase and use of horses. Not necessarily as a self contained system in and of itself.


Big as Pebbles, Strong as Talc, Smarter than you, I am - Lennon's Bulldog

>What seems to be the deciding factor (oddly enough) is parry

I had heard this too but didn't give it much consideration because it is so ridiculous. Guess I'll need to rethink that stance - while I try to envision someone parrying a charge with a lance.... ponder

Cheers - Cylllwdd

<<With stance shield I won. With stance parry, he won. With stance evasion I believe results varied (it was a while ago so Im trying to recollect). When we split stances between shield and evasion, oddly enough he won.>>

<<No clue about the formula, to me jousting makes no sense whatsoever.>>

Personally I don't think stance has anything to do with it at all. My guess from tests would be there's a random factor kind of like how a trader selling gem pouches would have a +-10% differential.

I set my stance to 1% parry 1% evasion 1% shield and 1% attack stance and was still winning by the same margin (both lances skidding across the shields quite a bit with a few broken lances here and there) as I did with a full stance on multiple jousts in a row. I tried this test with a few different people. As far as shield being the be all end all skill in jousting...I've also won without my shield out and dodged the lance coming for me against someone with, granted, quite a bit less skill. That leads me to believe that evasion does play a bit of a role as well.

Beliel

"Wow, weird, I have both the pike and the halberd version of this lance. The one that appraises as a halberd definately teaches me halberd. I have more halberd than pike, I let someone use it who has more pike than halberd and it teaches them halberd as well."

I've never trained halberd. My lance apps as halberd but trains pike. Which I'm quite happy with. I really don't want to have to train it all over again.

Cadmuson De'Uess
Did i say something to offend you? Let me rephrase it and offend you some more!

>Then theres the weird jousts. ie...Gadorr hitting Relayer in the melon, but then losing a joust with Phanton who is quite a bit lower.

My shield stance was set at 0 when that happened. I changed it and did a bit better.


Relayer

http://darkanvil.bravepages.com/Index.html

---

The yellow jester does not play
But gentle pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance
In the court of the crimson king.

<<The reason it teaches pike is cuz it's the old version. Was before the bugs were fixed. The newer ones should teach halberd... I think they were fixed around Jan of 2001.

Cavalier Calemnon>>

You are assuming that the bug was that they were teaching pike. The bug was in the appraisal being halberd. It should have been pike all along. Unfortunately the wrong bug was fixed.

That being said, I will speculate that whoever fixed it just did the easiest solution to the problem, and fixed what it teaches, instead of fixing all of the pikes in the system.

Quit trying to bring across the idea that a lance is a halberd. It is not. A lance does not have an axe blade on it.

However that still does not solve the problem of what weapons to use for jousting.

Cyllwdd do you know more pikes or halberds?

Even if we do come to some conclusion regarding the blunted lances, we still do not know what the jousting formula uses.

Does it use what the weapons teaches, or how it appraises? Or does it even matter, and they default in some way? Defaulting would be the nice simple answer, but enough people are noticing wonkyness that perhaps they do not.

Or Cal is just mad that he has lost a few. Snicker.

Candidus
________________


Raellia lowers her head briefly before unleashing a roar hinting at a fatal following.
You are frozen with fear!
Tigo, Rufhelous and Grasimnio appear frozen with fear.

Rufhelous says, "That's not good."

Well just to add more illogic to an already illogical situation.

The Crossing arena blunted jousting lances appraise halberd. Yet they teach pike. I have about 35 more ranks in pikes than Halberds, although eventually I will train them even.

Pikes: XXX 02.70% learning

Halberds: XXX 68.89% clear

I did not feel like taking the blunted lance to a creature that will train me better, so this was the result after a few hits on a gargoyle. Both were clear prior to this.

The result with the blunted lance was the typical problem with most pole arms created throughout the years. Until someone, right about the time horses and jousting came out, assisted and said "Why is not my Halberd appraised lance (gold tipped lance I believe) teaching Halberds?"

I know the original gold-tipped lances were this way, for I have one that still teaches pikes and appraises halberd. I do not want it to teach halberd, so have not assistsed on it.

This was of course when, instead of the appraisal being fixed, the skill they taught was adjusted. Hence now he have the completely illogical situation of Lances being treated as a Halberd weapon. The newer Jousting lances from the Safari are a good example of this.

I realize some of you are emotionally involved in this, with time and training. There are plenty of suitable halberd type weapons out there. The short hafted halberd and the lochaber axe come to mind.

However, just look at the historical descriptions, or even just the dictionary definitions of Lances, Halberds, and Pikes. You will see the truth of the situation.

The truth being that Lances are a hell of alot closer in description and definition to Pikes, than they are to Halberds.

The best solution would be to create a Lance weapon category, have all lances IG changed to this, and have a utility created that on a one time offer only, anyone may move one of their current pole arm skills into the new Lance skill. And then to make Jousting work only with Lances and the new Lance skill.

However that is not a simple solution.

Be that as it may, I think the only right and simple solution to this problem will be either for the GM judging Jousting to have two sets of blunted lances - one pike and one halberd (otherwise they are identical) - or to allow each contestant to supply their own weapon of choice.

I am going to the Kaith Kirm folder to ask on this now.

Candidus
_________________


Raellia lowers her head briefly before unleashing a roar hinting at a fatal following.
You are frozen with fear!
Tigo, Rufhelous and Grasimnio appear frozen with fear.

Rufhelous says, "That's not good."

Halberd's and Lances are nothing alike. One is an axe on a pole and one is a long poker. There is absolutely no reason the two should be in the same skill. Yes, a halberd typically has a pointed tip, but that does not put it in the same category as a lance. They are used in completely different fashions.

And honestly, there is no reason a halberd should be usable in jousing, in my opinion.

Litharius

______________________________________________________________

No sprinkles! For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you!

-Stewie Griffin

Well, the real truth of it is that those lances you see used in combats of the lists were rarely used in combat. The much more common weapon was a long spear couched low, a shorthafted... hmm for lack of a better word javelin and a poleaxe.. which looks remarkably like a halberd. Essentially, halberd was a generic term that applied to nay long shafted weapon with a slicing capability. The term halberd is actually rather rarely used in weapons histories texts in favor of the more accurate naming of the weapon in question. A pike in no way was ever use on horseback. point blank. A pike was generally 20 ft. long and was used by footmen where the pike butt end could be braced into the dirt behind the foot soldier to weather the brunt of a cavalry charge.

In the end, as someone stated.... a lance is not a pike, a lance is not a halberd. It is what it is a lance used in tournaments.

The best choice is to provide both halberd blunted and pike blunted. It is that simple, until the day there is actually a lance skill.. of course what is the point of developing a skill called lance that really shouldn't be usable in combat anyway?

Now, the halberd aka poleaxe was actually outlawed in most countries for use in field tournaments because it was determined to be way to deadly and good Knights were getting killed.

Daython

Basically, we need a lance skill. And the ability to copy our ranks from either halberd or pike into lance.

And a guild bonus with lances, but only while mounted.


Cavalier Calemnon