I disagree. There are far too many paladins who follow a different God than Chadatru.

~Coine~

and, chadatru isnt the patron of the guild.

<1. Our paldains are not armored priests weilding blades on horseback.
Prostalytizing and dovoting oneself to the worship of the Immortals is the
job of the Clerics guild. Does your character worship a god/s? Fine, but your
character is a paladin first. Remember that.>

and a paladin is a warrior of the gods. the gods come first for a paladin, then comes anyhthing else. clerics are not the exclusive agents of the gods, though they are closer to the gods than paladins.

<5. Dichotimizing our guild into sects or groups, would be bad for guild unity
and cause alot of infighting. Paladins of Chadatru vs paladins of Botolf,
need I say more?>

the guild itself is an organization. the paladin can be a member of the guild, but it is not something required, as long as he himself remains what a paladin is. there is no "god versus god" thing either. the gods just are.

to speak slander and to forsake any god is blasphemy.

-Blasword

<<While Paladins are not neccassarily active preachers of the faith, they do act as an example of the virtues of following a faith. So they can convert by setting a good example. Paladins also protect the worshippers of the gods so they may have more followers, and they do that for religious reasons.>>

While I think both you and Blasword, have points. I still think we need to do a fair recounting of some important issues.

The guild is not the Church of Paladinhood. Unlike Clerics, this guild has no religious affiliation, whatsoever. Keep that in mind. The religious overtones of the job are only what the character brings with him. I would recommend a close scrutinizing of the IG definitions of our calling, NEVER, from all the ones I've looked at, are they based upon religion. This assumption is merely a hold over from outside sources, and while you are validated and legitimate in RPing your paladin that way, I think we also must keep, in perspective, how the guild is set up in DR.

I beleive our characters calling is to protect, defend, and lead. I think these standards can be found in virtually ANY IG source, and they seem to be quite obvious and clear. To lead and protect is a more accurate motto, than to proselytize and promote. Please keep in mind, while you mull these issues over, though we receive our powers from the gods, this does not, necessarily, imply that we are to be priests or to overlap the duties of a priest.. Defenders of the faith, perhaps, guardians of the realms, of course, leaders among all mortal-kind, absolutely.. We must take care not to assign our paladins roles that should belong to Clerics. For, the guild's were designed to be complimentary. They were not designed to be redundant

I would also point out that a paladins personal faith, never seems to be called into question when he joins the guild. It seems, to me anyway, as long as he ascribes to the ideals and calling, his religious views are irrelevant. I believe his perspective on the guild, is not only correct, but also works on a practical level. Allow me to explain, if you're a paladin that for some ridiculous, far-fetched reason venerates a god that advocates murder, torture and theft, your character could not, in all honesty, justify committing these actions, which run-contrary to our guild's codes of honor, by claiming to be championing his/her gods wishes. You can see how that idea could quickly get out of hand. Instead your paladin should be encouraged to personally venerate a more realistically practical religion that corresponds to the calling of our guild.

Perhaps I'm wrong, this isn't most eloquent argument. But I think it deserves at least careful consideration. Granted their are points that can be made on the other side of the issue as well.

Thanks for your time,

Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Darkbrook)

>Unlike Clerics, this guild has no religious affiliation, whatsoever. Keep that in mind. The religious overtones of the job are only what the character brings with him.

I disagree. Between the powers we receive from the gods and our pre-titles, and our glyph quests, we are very affiliated with the gods. You even have to pray to one on a quest to get a glyph. Why would the gods give us powers if they do not request something in return?

Raphael described what we do as protecting the followers of the gods. Many gods in the fantasy genre as a whole somehow get things from their followers. It is the case in dragonrealms as well where people give sacrifices in the form of experience orbs to the gods in exchange for features. What happens to these experiences and skills when sacrificed? Well they are given to the gods and used for whatever purpose. The more followers a god has the more sacrifices they recieve. Everything we do is interconnected with the gods.

It is not our JOB to preach and convert, however everyone endears their religious beliefs onto their friends, neighbors, children, coworkers etc. If you know someone who serves and protects like a corpsman or a police officer they instill certain virtues and ideals just in how they act and by your acquiantance with them. The same is true of palainds. They are shining examples of followers of the faith.

Hege

Very good job, you were quite ambigious at the end. I approve. =P

Hege, divinely devoted.

I agree with Britney.

Calemnon the short-poster

<<Just to toss my two cents in, I have to agree with Brittany. (Rare occasion, I know, but it's true.) >>

Hey don't feel bad, I can't be wrong all the time. :-)

Brittany (..chairman of the Council of Unpopular Opinions)

I also agree with Brittany on the core issue/purpose of this guild, as her points are valid and confirm the constant quest that Gad has been on since joining the paladin guild a very very long time ago.

Gad

I'll share with you what my answer to your questions would be, WHITEC12.

<<However, a question, our spells are not drawn from elemental forces, etc and are a result of dedication to the guild (ie: granted on a per circle basis as opposed to skill set basis) and drawn from the various powers of the gods aren't they? If that is true does that not indicate an at least peripheral affiliation with the dieties?>>

Well it all depends on what you mean exactly by "peripheral affiliation". I would say that our paladin's are divinely empowered, but not divinely obligated. The gods give them power for a specific end, to bring order and justice to Elanthia, to protect it and mortalkind from corrosive and harmfull forces (ie...darkness). In my opinion that's where the calling ends. How our characters choose to associate with the gods beyond that is the perogative of the paladin.

Brittany (..the player of Aspasia Darkbrook)

Wow... it seems like we're actually GETTING somewhere with a religious debate rather than holding our grounds and being stubborn...

Calemnon

<<The gods empower the Clerics to promote and foster their worship and veneration, and to oversee their religious affairs on Elanthia. The gods empower Paladins to bring order and justice, and to protect society and mortalkind from darkness.The Clerics are the direct representitives and servants of the gods, paladins are the protectors of justice and the servants of mortalkind. Two similar empowerments, but two different ends.>>

The only problem I see with this view is that you are seperating the gods "justice" from that of mortals. Mortal "justice" is the mortal interpretation of what the gods find "just". If mortal justice were inherantly different from that of the gods, why would the gods grant the power to defend it? Why would the "gods" help Paladins defend a justice that is not the same as what the gods envision? If however, you agree that the gods give Paladins the power to uphold "mortal justice", because it is a representation of the "gods justice" then Paladins in fact operate as "direct representatives and servants to the gods."

--Just a Squire

<<Perhaps it would be best to simply say that a Paladin believes in something and champions that cause, whether it is a god or goddess, a country, or a belief.
-Ixdaeliovadi, Champion of the Dark Triad >>

If I can't pronounce or spell a persons name, I don't take their ideas seriously...

Heh kidding, anyway I think you are correct in a sense. However, the discussion at hand is whether or not the Paladins are working for the gods directly (ala clerics), or a step removed. I can't see how they are a step removed if they get their powers directly form the gods in order to uphold "justice", even if this "justice" is man-made. Man-made "justice" is still based on the justice of the immortals, otherwise the immortals wouldn't be backing us in u[pholding it...As far as your "champion" of whatever idea goes: I do agree, unfortunately the GM's don't seem to or we would have the Crusader title...

--Just a Squire

<<Man-made "justice" is still based on the justice of the immortals, otherwise the immortals wouldn't be backing us in u[pholding it.>>

Who said the immortals where the ones who ordained "justice"? Interesting contrast of opinion though.

Do our characters follow the gods because they happen to be gods? Or do they follow the gods because they beleive the gods are worthy of being followed?

Is Chadatru a just god, because he determined what justice is. Or is he a just god because he too, follows a universal sense of justice.

Could it therefore be that sense we too follow the same universal sense of justice that we are equally as Just as Chadatru, though we don't actively worship him or perhaps even reject him?

Just some thoughts.

Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Darkbrook)

<<Well your pre-supposing that what you call "Mortal-justice" is inherently different from that of the gods. >>

Actually I was doing the complete opposite. Others made the point that what mortals see as justice is different from what the immortals see as justice. I was just trying to make the point that if this were the case it would make no sense for the immortals to bestow their gifts upon Paladins in order to defend mortal justice....

--Just a Squire

<<Note that the gods chose those that were already pure of heart and purpose. Paladins existed before there was any connection between them and the gods, but just didn't have all the neat things we do today, like spells and glyphs. This can be interpreted as the blessings of the gods merely being a sign of their support for what paladins do>>

Intriguing point. And one which would also support my particular opinion on this matter. However, I must be honest. I don't think it's an accurate statement. Let's look at the whole excerpt so we get a clear look at context.

"The Calling of the Paladin be of the most high and ancient origin. Long ago, when Men of all races strove against Chaos and Darkness, the Gods sent down grace and leadership unto those among us who were pure of heart and purpose. Those so chosen became shining beacons of leadership and courage to all around them. Each Paladin throughout the ages has been a focus for the forces of Light against Darkness."

First thing I think we need to take note of is the fact that the paragraph is being spoken in a context of origin. Note the first sentence, it implies that this is the subject of the paragraph. Origins.

Now if we understand that then we come to an understanding in regard to the rest of the excerpt. Yes their was moral purity before the gods bestowed blessings upon us. But this does not necessarily indicate that their were paladins before this. Of course in fairness, it doesn't necessarily say paladins did not exist prior to this either. But let's remember the context. Origins.

That is my main dissenting view on your point. But I allso would like to add somthing to that.

My particular opinion is that upon the bestowment of the gifts, our guild patron, Rutilor, organized the gifted into the Paladin's guild. There he gave us a purpose and calling and taught us the concept of honor, a manner of discipline and living which would serve as a basis for the path we were called to walk.

Over the millennia the gifts have continued to be bestowed upon the next generation of paladins. I believe this is a sign that the guild still pleases the gods, and that our role is valued by ALL 13. Light and Dark. One reason I would offer as to why ALL 13 still favor us is because our guild is not built around the furtherance of religion. Instead it's built around a universal concern of all 13, the protection of Elathania and the establishment of order.

I look at it like this. The Light gods see a need to instill value and honor into the world to prevent suffering. They probably would realize such an undertaking would require a strong form of moral and just order. To this end they empower and bless the guild, knowing that the preservation of life, society, and virtue are of the utmost importance. If ever they would fail to pursue such "good", they would cease to be morally pure beings, at least in their own eyes.

The dark gods see a need to install order and form to the world. While they may personally see no harm in acts of theft, murder, or torture. They understand that permitting these actions on a global scale would be catastrophic to their goals. In that sense they themselves recognize the value of an honor code, and as long as they are not obligated to follow it, see no problem in enforcing it upon mortals. Because, after all, it serves the ends of the truly important, namely themselves.

This is how my logic is working on this particular issue. Obviously this isn't a simple issue that can be easily explained or even provide convenient answers to tough questions. Doesn't really matter which way you tackle this discussion, it's still a hard sell. But, as we often learn in RL, truth can indeed be more difficult to accept than fiction. And not everything is as simple and marginal as we like it to be. While we may hate all the if's and's and but's, oft times reality has a lot of them in it.

Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Darkbrook)