>>someone could be decked out in Rakash gear that you'd have to look up

Nobody ever said you have to look anything up or asked you to do that. Or, that you should care what they are wearing at all. That is your style of play. You can RP ignorance just as well as enlightenment.

>>a tap description that identifies the item as a [item]

I understand some players desire to make it like this, for me that would be insanely boring. Not to mention fly directly in the face of thousands of hours of creation and coding. If everything were stripped to its basic description it would be like "vanilla-gray-scale- relams" in my opinion. As I've said before I love the diversity and the ability to be as "racially fashion forward" as you want or don't want to be.

>>gibberish items

Strange I see them as being "language" items, nothing gibberish at all. It's all Skra, Elven, Prydaen, Rakash, Haakish, Gamgweth anyways. I don't even think they have a race that speaks gibberish, maybe the Ocular? Basically, I'm saying there is no "gibberish items" at all, there are these "racial items" and I think they have a perfect place in this little text fantasy. Our opinions don't have to match, we don't have to try and win each other over. But, let's try not to discredit the people who worked on these and continue to work on other things we may not even know about yet. They do good work, and even if you don't enjoy this aspect of the game... I do.

If it turns out that magically wearing all Rakash stuff will make me a BOSS at pvp, I will buy a dozen alteration vouchers and make my gear tomorrow. You have been warned!

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* SPLAT! * You destroy the annoying thing!

<<I understand some players desire to make it like this, for me that would be insanely boring. Not to mention fly directly in the face of thousands of hours of creation and coding. If everything were stripped to its basic description it would be like "vanilla-gray-scale- relams" in my opinion. As I've said before I love the diversity and the ability to be as "racially fashion forward" as you want or don't want to be.

And yet we keep asking for GMs to stop making gibberish items. Some of us push for not having gibberish titles. My character speaks Ilithic, and will drop Ilithic words into his Common when it suits him. This is an acceptable use of a racial language. Forcing other people to look up what an item that -- stop and consider here -- they would realistically realize is a spear or bow or sword at a glance is not an acceptable use of a racial language. Naming areas in a racial language is an acceptable use of a racial language. Describing the terrain in a racial language is not.

Titles are an OOC enough mechanic (they represent your character's reputation) that most folks are willing to ignore the gibberish titles. Personally, I have them squelched and wouldn't mind seeing them gone.

These aren't unreasonable boundaries to ask for.

<<Strange I see them as being "language" items, nothing gibberish at all. It's all Skra, Elven, Prydaen, Rakash, Haakish, Gamgweth anyways. I don't even think they have a race that speaks gibberish, maybe the Ocular? Basically, I'm saying there is no "gibberish items" at all, there are these "racial items" and I think they have a perfect place in this little text fantasy. Our opinions don't have to match, we don't have to try and win each other over. But, let's try not to discredit the people who worked on these and continue to work on other things we may not even know about yet. They do good work, and even if you don't enjoy this aspect of the game... I do.

You don't want to play semantics. Semantics is where poor arguments go to die.

If this is disparaging the GMs' efforts, then I'm sorry they deserve to be disparaged. With the exception of proper names (which, for the record, have to go in the LOOK description or READ of an item because it was deemed it would get confusing) there is no appropriate use for racial languages in general consumption within the game. If you want your character to speak in pidgin Common-Rakash that's your business and people will respect is a role-playing choice.

I never once said anything about being unreasonable or that I didn't understand what you felt should happen, I just don't agree at all. Again, that's fine. We obviously have different aspects of this game that we find enjoyable.

This whole thing has been a whole lot of opinion with little actual reasoning, the whole I get from you is that "we don't like it, we think it disrupts our playing" and while I respect your ability to play the game how you want, it also means I should get to play how I want. As long as we're within the policy, there should be no reason why we can't both have cake and eat it.

While you don't see a reason or use for it in everyday Elanthia, I do. I see these items as being different enough to warrant usage of their name rather than a generic term. When is a desk a computer desk? When is a pair of shoes some work boots? Why would a scimitar be a scimitar and not a curved sword? Or, a pike a pike... and a lance a lance... and a spear a spear... but still a javelin is a javelin? Because I can look in your hand and see "a fuzzy round ball" doesn't mean its not "a ripe peach".

I can understand your points, I really just don't agree at all. I think this idea of "generic-naming" would really take away alot of the depth and flavor that I personally enjoy. I've never really cared about looking something up I don't understand, or asking a player about what they use/have/hold. I like being surprised by new and interesting things that I either haven't seen before or never had a reason to interact with.

I really do like the current style of Rakash items. They use the name and tell you in the look what the translation is, I understand you want it the other way around but that doesn't really fit with ANY of the Rakash item releases. We do have armor, clasps, sash's, weapon straps ... There are some generic items. Being that these were not put out in that "generic" way would cause me to believe that they are different enough to be deserving of their own names (like I said before) weather or not this is stated, it is implied.

>>LEYHANM

Hah. Than don't. I'll wear more to overcompensate for the loss. Got any khiynit for sale?

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* SPLAT! * You destroy the annoying thing!

Would it be at all feasible for players to get a LOOK DETAIL (or something) command that would tell us the LOOK or TAP description of an item in another player's possession? Ideally it would be no-RT and give no messaging to other players.

For me, that would eliminate a lot of my issues with gibberish items. At least if someone slings a dklsfhasudiabvdfjksv off his shoulder, I can do a quick look and see if it's a musical instrument or a brain-eating worm launcher, and react accordingly, as opposed to looking it up on Elanthipedia and educating myself (not a problem) while my character's brain is potentially being eaten (problem).

Stealing from TEVESHSZAT's example, in Mexico I can point to a beer and ask how to say that in Spanish. I don't ask someone "hey, what's a cerveza?" while looking at the bottle in the other guy's hand. Real life and DR work in opposite ways in this scenario.

This way people could still wave their fhaserdcbggtttt dhjeuiueiw askjdafshalos at everyone with reckless abandon like they want, preserving their own RP style and environment, and we can still see what they're doing in a timely and quasi-IC manner, and either join them in celebration or call the guards.

Just a thought.

>> LOOK DETAIL

+1

Great idea, I would think that it would get rid of allot of this confusion and allow things to progress in whatever manner the developer/creator wants.

>
DETAIL Alexii Skefne
>
Alexii is wearing/holding a relna skefne. The black Rakash-styled spear... blah blah blah.

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* SPLAT! * You destroy the annoying thing!

>>It's not about something generic like water, we are talking about culture specific items

As far as I understand it, there is nothing culturally specific about Rakash-named items. Along with that, it would benefit the player to not have to look it up: I'm all for the path of lease resistance.

If players have to look up what someone is holding/wearing/etc, then there is a problem with the way something is written because the game is properly communicating to the player. When I look at a dress, I see a dress. I don't see a vestir, kleden, or habiller.

>>By that same reasoning only blacksmiths should be able to tell a scimitar, a sabre, etc. from each other. We would only see a curved sword, and a lesser-curved sword.

When someone reads scimitar or sabre, they can visualize the object and remain immersed in the game. The fact that people might not personally understand the nuances of what makes a weapon a scimitar or a sabre rarely diminishes their ability to understand what is going on.

Most players don't remain immersed upon seeing something named with a made up word if they have any interest in acting in response to it.

I look at it this way: I can't feel immersed in a game that I can't read. I don't play non-translated JRPGs because it turns out I don't speak Japanese. Along with that, I don't speak Rakash, or Gorbesh, or Toggish, or Dwarven, or Elven, etc. And, when those words are tossed into the game in the context where I the player read/see them as opposed to my character, it's jarring/distracting/offputting and removes me from the game environment.

It boils down to me feeling that there's nothing wrong with characters/signs/songs/etc being in specific languages, because the language barrier there is properly immersive, but if a room/item description is in a non-commonly-understandable language, it makes less sense because that's not how people visualize things. As I said, I don't go to Mexico and start getting confused because, when I look around, the nouns that enter my brain are all in Spanish.

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

>>I think it would be pretty neat if there was a dye shop in town that would dye items to Rakash translated color options

And back to your original suggestion. Dye shops are going to go mostly or completely away. Dying is going to be done by the artistry skill. Right now you cannot dye any items that are made with the new crafting system and is going to stay that way until artistry release. So I doubt that anyone really is looking to expand/work on a dye shop until that is done. But you could make this suggestion in the crafting folders so we could have this same argument all over again.

Abison/Rystien

>>Argoyle: Would it be at all feasible for players to get a LOOK DETAIL (or something) command that would tell us the LOOK or TAP description of an item in another player's possession?

>>Leej82: I'd prefer it be handled in reverse. That way if I cared to investigate this person's black spear further I could and discover that it is a skefne.

I would like a "look detail" feature, but I agree with Leej82 that even with such a feature, fictitious languages should not be used as item taps for reasons that have already been elaborated.

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

>>Nobody ever said you have to look anything up or asked you to do that. Or, that you should care what they are wearing at all. That is your style of play. You can RP ignorance just as well as enlightenment.

My point was that my character's ignorance is different from my ignorance. If an item is simply called "a skefne" but looks like a spear, my character knows what that is! She sees that it's a spear! Yet because we use the medium of text, all I see is a "skefne" and I don't know what that is. If I want to remain IC, I have to look it up. Having my character ask, "What's that?" when she knows what it is is not RPing ignorance -- it is OOC.

Thus my point was that racial naming means we either have to do something OOC or look something up. Asking people to do either of those is a little inconsiderate.


-- Player of Eyuve

Below are two relevant posts by DR-OOLAN (part of a discussion of using racial names in alterations).

Note: This thread predates the release of Siksraja and its glut of seemingly generic racial items.

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Re: Rakash Suggestions and Ideas on 05/28/2009 04:07 AM EDT
>> So, while I like the idea of racial identity through items, I dislike having to ask someone what my character should plainly recognize.

>>I guess I just don't mind this though I can see why people do. I'll ask if I want to know, it's the problem of having a text based game. There are so many items that exist with names that give no hint to their function or basic structure from clothing to weapons and armour to jewelry. You only have to look at the number of instruments available with unusual names. I only mention it as an issue with weapons because the racial ones are rather poor templates. I use them anyway but it'd be nice to have the option to customise a better forged weapon.

There are two issues within this. The first is the issue of asking what something is. Your solution is nice, but the hidden problem that I haven't seen mentioned within this thread is the fact that there currently exist too many items where no one even has a clue what it is supposed to be or so few do as to make it the same end results. Sure you can appraise item X and determine it is a Heavy Edged weapon. But that doesn't do nearly enough to clarify WHAT it is. Is it a sword? An axe? So short of digging through the lore and the dictionaries hoping for clarification, the owner of the item is left unable to give a solid answer to their questioner as to what the item actually is.

This lead to establishing a set of rules for racial naming. The rules are (I feel) fairly common sense.

In order for the use of a non-common name on an item, we need to have an established understanding of what the item is and how it looks.

1) If the item looks exactly like you'd expect that item to look, you don't get a racial name. What I mean by this is if the item is a chair and it looks just like any other chair, then you need to call it a chair. If however the chair happens to have a tail slot and is otherwise a design common to the S'kra Mur and associated with them, then you get to use a S'kra Mur name with it. So to the suggested Claymore within this thread, in order to qualify for a racial name it would need a unique characteristic that makes that design distinguishable and strongly associated with the Rakash. This is a design aspect that we the GM's need to make and is something I'd like to see done over a wide variety of weapons and included within the forging system.

A few examples from real life might be the Katana (a sword unique in design compared to other countries) a futon and a main gauche knife. While I realize that not each and every person alive knows the ins and outs of them, particularly the weaponry, I'm willing to handwave that within DR to some extent, so long as we have established what the difference actually is.

2) The look of the item needs to be ON the item so that anyone holding it can understand what the name implies and why it is what it is and as equally importantly, why it isn't being called by the more common name of the item if it has a near equivalent. And given your state example, let's indeed look at those many musical instruments with in game names. Aside from knowing if they are percussion or woodwind or whatever, what do our characters in game know about most of them? The answer for most players is next to nothing, the same as with many of the already existing racially named weapons.

On the issue of weapon quality, I do fully agree with and understand the complaint. However, I do not agree that the solution is to just slap random in game language words onto items to make them feel authentic, but instead the solution is to design them as functional weapons and incorperate them into the game properly through merchants and in time the smithing system.

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Re: Rakash Suggestions and Ideas on 05/28/2009 11:23 AM EDT
>>This is a rather crude representation of what I was suggesting.

It was indeed a crude and harsh way to phrase it and I do apologize. But please also understand that I am aiming that as much as a description of what we the GM's have done in the past where we've taken weapon template X, clothing item, musical instrument, etc, slapped a racial name on it without any description at all and declared it a finished product.

I fully understand why many players want weapons and other tools that help them play the role they've chosen, but at the same time we need to make sure the tools in question actually do help you achieve that goal. If I release a Rakash ME weapon and you can't even tell if it is an axe or a sword, how has this helped enhance anything for you?

But knowing what it is still isn't enough in my opinion. A test I commonly use is to ask, well what if I handed this to a human, an elf and a gnome. If the item has no distinguishing features that should make it identifyable as an actual variation, then none of them would use the racial name for the item so we shouldn't either. A three legged stool is probably always going to be a three legged stool. A hunting knife is probably always going to be a hunting knife. But where we can clarify a variation and have a design that stands out, then adding it to the game does indeed make it a tool that helps you the players enhance the role you are playing.

>>As I said earlier, if you would like any help or input from the Rakash player base when the time comes please don't hesitate to ask.

By all means if you guys have thoughts or descriptions please feel free to toss them out. Even if I'm not using them this minute I'll jot them down or come back and search for them later. If you want a general guideline, look to the Prydaen merchant that came out a year or so back with the keyiru and such. That was merchant was designed shortly after the rules were set down and should be a decent example of what we are looking for though the designs don't have to be nearly that elaborate. I happened to have stolen that one from a book I'd read....er I mean my writing was heavily influenced.

>>I assume that the existing Rakash weapons were designed before this came into effect as most are described (if they are described) as a sword / axe etc with their only distinguishing feature being embellishment (vinaigrettes) rather than design differences.

That is quite correct. The Rakash weapons most likely predate me as a GM. But in due time they and most other racial weapons will develop a look of their own as we flesh them out.

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

I can address specific points, but after all this is just your opinion and my opinion on a statement made by someone else. Since these are stated to be rules, than we can just say that most if not all the items in Siksraja adhere to these. Save for some of those original weapons.

>>If the item looks exactly like you'd expect that item to look, you don't get a racial name.

So, if it has a racial name than it is implied that it is different regardless if it is represented in the look or tap. As I said.

>>The look of the item needs to be ON the item so that anyone holding it can understand what the name implies and why it is what it is and as equally importantly, why it isn't being called by the more common name of the item if it has a near equivalent.

This does not state that it needs to be in the tap of the item, just that it has to be ON the item so that someone can see what the name implies. So that is where the look of the item gets fleshed out with exactly what it is and why it is different.

>>design them as functional weapons and incorperate them into the game properly through merchants and in time the smithing system.

This is what has been done with a few of the weapon templates. I think it's wonderful. I would love to see more racial items in the crafting system as a whole, for all the races.

>>But where we can clarify a variation and have a design that stands out, then adding it to the game does indeed make it a tool that helps you the players enhance the role you are playing.

I would argue that due to the changing phsyique of the Rakash that items made by Rakash would be a clear variation. From clothing to weapons and armor. Hence those items in Siksraja currently.

I think we are reading two different things from the statements from DR-OOLAN. I think the dye idea is still fine regardless if in a shop or as a player ability.

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* SPLAT! * You destroy the annoying thing!

>I tried to think of similes or metaphors to more clearly put in perspective the inconvenience you're trying to place on everyone by even suggesting more items like this be created, and the only thing I could think of was an overweight phony bouncer demanding a kiss on the cheek from an innocent bystandard before allowing access to a free dance club. Dear god just let the bystandard into the club without making him or her jump through hoops in order to gain access to what should be free.

This discussions just broke Leilond's player.

>>Maybe there could be special items that look like "a skefne" to the person who owns them but look like "a spear" to others.

This sounds pretty neat actually, regardless of whether it'd be possible or not. Maybe it'd be toggle-able or something so that if you were a player of the appropriate race and had no idea what a skefne was using the example given, you could switch it back to see what it basically is, a spear.

Blackguard Danoryiel

"Sogan udazama umbunor fau arrazoi inishatu seiremisai. (Only the fallen have nothing to despair)"

>>Hexedbythenet: So, if it has a racial name than it is implied that it is different regardless if it is represented in the look or tap. As I said.

The sheer number of the generic-looking Rakash-named items that are sold at Siksraja suggests that whoever made them was not following the philosophy that Oolan descibes. Rather, it seems like they were "slapping random in game language words onto items to make them feel authentic" as a substitute for meaningful Rakash development.

Most of the Siksraja items are simply translations of common items with nothing in the look that explains how the Rakash item differs from similar items used by everyone else (or for that matter why basic colors are being described in Rakash instead of Common).

A few examples:

Tap: relna rugursora (black backpack)
Look: Designed for every day use, the thick black canvas of this backpack will resist punctures and tears.

Tap: forfra safos (purple dress)
Look: Bone buttons from collar to waist secure the bodice of this simple purple dress.

Tap: valta sega (white blanket)
Look: A vision of total comfort, this fluffy white blanket, woven in a waffle pattern, is splashed with ribbon rosebuds.

Tap: variog (shield)
Look: Exposure to the elements has dulled the luster of this shield's beaten metal.

Tap: divirala cirvi (double-edged axe)
Look: A well-shaped oak shaft transfers force from grip to target and balances the swinging weight of this axe's head.
Note: The compound word "divirala" does not appear in any of the Rakash dictionaries that are on Elanthipedia, so you can't even do a nice "find" to quickly translate the word. Instead, you have to guess how the word breaks down by looking for possible components.

Granted, some of the weapons have less generic looks, but overall I'm not seeing anything about them that justifies having an entirely Rakash tap (at the expense of readability).

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

>>So through that reasoning the items currently in place present enough of a variation that they have continued to remain in place and more have been added.

The more likely situation is that GMs, being independent people, ended up not following the same metrics for why a weapon should be named, not that the weapons are unique enough to warrant being named differently from their common variants.

>>Because you the player have a desire to know what's in my character's hand, and you the character cannot see plainly what it is. YOU have the choice what to do.

Honest question. Would you play the game if everything was written in Spanish? That's how racially named items register for many people: gibberish that requires them to break out a dictionary in order to know what is going on. It's not a roleplay environment that supports players easily processing what is going on.

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

I agree with blackguard on the colors thing.... I don't mind racial weapons on the whole, at first they were jarring, but through use ive grown accustomed to what many are. You can look at racial weapons as gibberish or something thats exotic, its your call on the approach. Also it can also help to have options when group hunting. If everyone throws a spear it gets messy.

- Buuwl

Isharon's post establishes two things:

1. The addition of other Rakash-language items to the stores at Siksraja was done in error as it goes against the basic guidelines established.
2. Rakash-language weapons pre-date that particular mandate and were slated for development that would differentiate them from their mundane companions in which case they'd at least meet DR's internal guidelines for gibberish naming.

I'm assuming that the Rakash no longer have a racial champion and that is the reasoning for the rather deafening silence from that side, and I can logically deduce that the development Rakash-language weapons were supposed to get never happened for one reason or another.

This leaves the rest of us with a huge mess and no GM to clean it up.

More from DR-OOLAN on racial items (emphasis added in bold):

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Re: Racial items on 06/20/2007 07:47 PM EDT
>>A while back there was a thread about the racial weapon for Prydaens that as initiated by Shakahn. Also, while working on a wedding package I heard in so many words that when the Prydaen term was used for a common item it was not the same as the common item. In other words a gown is not a gown by another name.

>>So, I'm curious.

>>I would love to see what exactly the differences are.

In regards specifically to Prydaen clothing, while a sarrak is a Prydaen take on a robe, it does not directly resemble what the other races would classify as a robe, that just happens to be the closest translation. For that reason you can't just take a common robe and have it renamed as a sarrak. It isn't just about what pretty designs you have embroidered, but the entire cut and look of the item that makes it a sarrak and the other Prydaen clothing follows the same trend.

>>It would be nice to see not just for Prydaen but all the races. I'm really curious what a sword specifically balanced for my Prydaen would look like vs a normal sword. My Gnome especially would love to see weapons designed that are strong but light and multi use to keep encumbrance down. My Elothean would love to see things that don't necessarily look martial but are strong and light and have multi uses, one of which is quite martial. I can go on.

Please also bear in mind that not all racial weapons are going to be specially coded to work better or be more balanced in race X's hands. What it means is that that race did a variation of the item that is distinctive enough that anyone else looking at it will know it was a special variation and not a normal weapon. However, it is also my goal that such items released in the future will make sense and not require googling or running to an in game library or digging out your notes to figure out if it is an axe or sword when the appraisal only tells you it is a medium edged weapon. A Prydaen sword might not function any differently for a Prydaen than it does for a Gor'Tog, but if it was designed with a totally new look that had not previously been seen in the 5 provinces, then it should rightly keep the name that the Prydaens gave it. And it should have sufficient descriptions on it that you can see not only that it is a sword but also what makes it so different from other examples of a sword.

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

I understand what has been said by both GM's and players. I'm not arguing about things having a better or fuller description. I am against the removal of racial-language items or the restriction on making more simply because some people don't like the translated words.

If you need "an oak-hafted" or a "broad-headed" added on to things so that you can better figure them out without looking them up, that's fine by me. However, them being palatable or not to some players does not invalidate their existence. I'll continue endeavor to work with what I've got until things change.

None of OOLAN's posts said that there could never be racial items at all, I'll point that out. And none of them said that you must be able to see the item as its basic form. So I'll take those two comforts away from this all.

I'll also say again that we obviously have different aspects about this game we enjoy. I don't mind getting my characters over-their-heads in Rakash items, I tend to create traditionalist Rakash. I see it no different than being decked out in Guild-gear or God-gear.

Perhaps I'll make some suggestions for those items already in place for Siksraja. Or even, people who find them distasteful could offer up constructive ideas too. How revolutionary of an idea would that be!

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* SPLAT! * You destroy the annoying thing!

Compromise 1: Rakash tap and descriptive look. Only you and players you SHOW your gibberish noun to can tell in-game what you're holding. Anyone else has to reference elanthipedia or keep a post-it stuck to their monitor with a dozen or more translations for potentially all 11 racial languages. This delays everyone's ability to react and role-play.

Compromise 2: Common tap and descriptive Rakash look. Every player in the game will be able to readily distinguish between your spear, backpack, and tropical fruit. You have shop items with an elaborate LOOK description to further your role-play, and are still free to use the Rakash words to describe your gear when you're speaking in Common.

Option 2 requires no additional effort on the part of the player base at large, with the downside that you have to type "spear" instead of "skefne". Players and players of characters interested in honoring Rakash culture can make an effort to learn the Rakash word for spears, backpacks, and kumquats. In option 1, players have to make an effort to learn the common word just to role-play their character not knowing or caring about the distinction between a skefne and a spear. The upside is that you get to type "get skefne" and "throw skefne", and anyone else with detailed knowledge of Rakash can look at you and tell that you're wearing traditional Rakash gear. A decent TAP description takes care of the second part of that, so all you seem to be arguing for is that every player not knee-deep in Rakash lore should have to work harder to recognize a spear as a spear just so you can interact with a different noun. I can't see that as anything but you being either selfish or short-sighted, and enough people have raised reasonable concerns that I think it's the former rather than the latter.