Previous Thread
Expand All
Collapse All
Ignore Author
Reply
Most ideas I see for the Ranger guild lately that people post are 'based on TM'. Knock it off or they'll make us a magic secondary guild.
Go shoot something with an arrow while saying "By My Hands, May Lirisa Smite Thee...". I have additional ideas of what can be done with the TM portion of the equation.
>>---> A
>Most ideas I see for the Ranger guild lately that people post are 'based on TM'. Knock it off or they'll make us a magic secondary guild.
Considering how limited the armor skillset is in usefulness for us, I'm more and more of the mind that rangers should be armor tert and magic secondary.
After all, I have magic skills that are higher than any of my armors...
If the paradigm for useful, damaging combat magic is based off TM, then we need to learn to adapt and start using TM. And like most other things we do, get really good at it. Nothing helps you survive like being able to kill without ever touching your foe when you have no weapons or armor.
I rather look forward to the next naked ranger race in Plat, since I can pretty much nuke any of the critters that have gear I need in under 5 seconds without them ever seeing me coming. Brawling takes quite a bit longer at the same ranks.
-pete
Considering how limited the armor skillset is in usefulness for us, I'm more and more of the mind that rangers should be armor tert and magic secondary.
After all, I have magic skills that are higher than any of my armors...
If the paradigm for useful, damaging combat magic is based off TM, then we need to learn to adapt and start using TM. And like most other things we do, get really good at it. Nothing helps you survive like being able to kill without ever touching your foe when you have no weapons or armor.
I rather look forward to the next naked ranger race in Plat, since I can pretty much nuke any of the critters that have gear I need in under 5 seconds without them ever seeing me coming. Brawling takes quite a bit longer at the same ranks.
-pete
I just started a ranger and was wondering what rangers do for TM. Is it worth it to keep on level with other combats? Would it be considered a "must have" combat skill, or can I disregard it completely? When it comes to offensive killing skills, where does it stack up against melee, ranged, thrown, and other weapons? Just trying to get a feel for the priority I should place on TM training... if any. Thanks.
________________________________________
<<DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG. >>
You flat out, absolutely, 100% have no idea what you're talking about.
Solomon
________________________________________
<<DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG. >>
You flat out, absolutely, 100% have no idea what you're talking about.
Solomon
Honestly I've found TM pretty easy to train. Either spam EB at min prep (if you cycle 3 or 4 critters you can lock TM without ever killing a critter). Or toss it in as a part of your attack routine, it only takes about 1.7 seconds per round of attacks to fire off a TM spell, and it's enough to keep the spell moving during a normal hunt if you start by dancing for defenses a little and using the face next\nprep\ntarg\ncast routine.
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
Tolle says, "Yup yup, 'bout time. What the heck took you so long?"
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
Tolle says, "Yup yup, 'bout time. What the heck took you so long?"
>>Honestly I've found TM pretty easy to train. Either spam EB at min prep (if you cycle 3 or 4 critters you can lock TM without ever killing a critter). Or toss it in as a part of your attack routine, it only takes about 1.7 seconds per round of attacks to fire off a TM spell, and it's enough to keep the spell moving during a normal hunt if you start by dancing for defenses a little and using the face next\nprep\ntarg\ncast routine.
Agreed it's easy to train but it's also a tert skill so will fall behind quickly since all our other combat skills are secondary or primary.
Agreed it's easy to train but it's also a tert skill so will fall behind quickly since all our other combat skills are secondary or primary.
There are many different views on TM by rangers in the realms. But here is my take. If you fight something you have trouble hitting, being able to damage it or hamper it in some way with magic can be the edge you need to be able to kill it or for you to stay alive. Keep in mind most folks would immediately say you are hunting over your head. Those things do happen however, so its good to keep it in mind. If you are just starting a ranger I would make sure you keep it moving. I don't think you will be able to keep it up with your weapons skills but thats not the point. Keeping it moving would put you way ahead of those of us who have to spend the next 10 years making up lost ground. In my opinion you can move it by having someone teach you TM for the first 100 ranks, far faster than you can ever move it hunting. So as you train keep that in mind, and that does not mean dont use it in combat. The key to using it in combat is to find out a way that works such that you can damage the critter at the right time to put a real hurt on it when using your weapons, thus giving you the edge in combat. So using spells in combat takes what?...... PRACTICE! It will never stack up as a top killing method for rangers, but you will be able to use it to maximum effect, thus improving your abilities. Just remember one thing though.... not all creatures you face will be affected all that much by magic, so don't make it become the key to your ability to fight. Its just an added weapon to what we can do.
Ranger Pfanston and His Soggy Doggy.
Ranger Pfanston and His Soggy Doggy.
>Agreed it's easy to train but it's also a tert skill so will fall behind quickly since all our other combat skills are secondary or primary.
If you train more than one weapon at or near primary ranks and train TM along with both weapons, you can exceed the rate of gain on weapon training with TM easily.
An alternative to spamming is to train TM while brawling. You can also throw in a charge/focus to learn MD fairly nicely in there as well.
Unfortunately spamming BOLT at 1 mana seems to be the best way to learn TM... :-/
-pete
If you train more than one weapon at or near primary ranks and train TM along with both weapons, you can exceed the rate of gain on weapon training with TM easily.
An alternative to spamming is to train TM while brawling. You can also throw in a charge/focus to learn MD fairly nicely in there as well.
Unfortunately spamming BOLT at 1 mana seems to be the best way to learn TM... :-/
-pete
I decided to start training it, and it's going well. Here is a simplified segment of my script that's working really well:
TOP:
put prep bolt 5
pause .5
put target
pause .5
put load
pause
pause
put cast
put aim
put advance
put hide
pause
pause
put stalk
pause
pause
put poach
goto top
It's keeping TM locked, and as I cycle through the bows, it's staying on pace with the 3 bows I started training also. Of course, after 100 or 200 ranks I'll have more definitive information, but so far, it seems like it's going to work out just fine. Thanks for the info everyone.
________________________________________
<<DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG. >>
You flat out, absolutely, 100% have no idea what you're talking about.
Solomon
TOP:
put prep bolt 5
pause .5
put target
pause .5
put load
pause
pause
put cast
put aim
put advance
put hide
pause
pause
put stalk
pause
pause
put poach
goto top
It's keeping TM locked, and as I cycle through the bows, it's staying on pace with the 3 bows I started training also. Of course, after 100 or 200 ranks I'll have more definitive information, but so far, it seems like it's going to work out just fine. Thanks for the info everyone.
________________________________________
<<DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG. >>
You flat out, absolutely, 100% have no idea what you're talking about.
Solomon
I would echo the sentiment that if you train multiple weapons, and keep TM mixed with all of them, they do train at similar rates. Lhun trains 5 weapons and TM. When TM first came out I had to backtrain nearly 200 ranks to catch it up to my primary weapons. But since then, just simply working each weapon in turn and mixing TM with all of them, I have picked up over 200 ranks equally between Secondary/Tert skills. In fact my TM is currently my top offensive skill, albeit by just 3 ranks. Thats just working it normally.
It makes for a wicked finisher to my weapon combo's (prep/target feint,draw,slice,chop cast - repeat). And is even better when used in tandom with a bow. You can prep/target/aim And fire your fully aimed arrow(s) immediatly followed with a full-prep/target spell. Far more effective than our dual-load (and less roundtime too).
If your just pushing your 1 or 2 weapons though, its going to slow you down a lot more than if your already working a more rounded combat routine. Thats my take on it.
Lhun
It makes for a wicked finisher to my weapon combo's (prep/target feint,draw,slice,chop cast - repeat). And is even better when used in tandom with a bow. You can prep/target/aim And fire your fully aimed arrow(s) immediatly followed with a full-prep/target spell. Far more effective than our dual-load (and less roundtime too).
If your just pushing your 1 or 2 weapons though, its going to slow you down a lot more than if your already working a more rounded combat routine. Thats my take on it.
Lhun
In my oppinion I have always thought TM should have stayed to Magic Prime Guilds only, and the change to force everyone to use TM to kill with was one of the worst changes to ever happen. I was also a supporter to eliminate magic completely from the Rangers arsenal and turn everything into beseeches or some hybrid of the such. I have always thought beseeches was/is/and forever will be a better avenue to manipulate nature than magic but again that was my opinion. With that being said, since TM doesn't seem to be a requirement for advancement in our guild I have no inentions of learning anymore than what I do on occasion while hunting and i most cases, I can't hit the broad side of a gor togs rear while they are laying down and webbed.
Arct
Arct
Not to crack that can of worms open TOO Much... but the entire reason that non magic primes CAN use TM is because it was that or give up their ability to lethal spells entirely.
Because... well... yeah, someone finally realized if Guild A can kill something with a spell and only needs 1 skill (PM) that's non combat trainable, and Guild B needs 2 skills (PM and TM) and one of them is not combat trainable... Guild A is actually the one coming out ahead.
I'm not really sure how you can argue that otherwise aside from some mumbo jumbo about TDPs.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
Because... well... yeah, someone finally realized if Guild A can kill something with a spell and only needs 1 skill (PM) that's non combat trainable, and Guild B needs 2 skills (PM and TM) and one of them is not combat trainable... Guild A is actually the one coming out ahead.
I'm not really sure how you can argue that otherwise aside from some mumbo jumbo about TDPs.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
>I love the new Ranger TM spells and hope there are more on the way.
Yes. I seriously want my third and fourth tier TM spells. Especially enrage undergrowth. WTB messaging tearing things limb from limb and beating them with said limbs. Muhahhahaha.
>Backtraining the ranks really wasn't all that bad.
Meh. Not hard, but a huge time sink.
-pete
Yes. I seriously want my third and fourth tier TM spells. Especially enrage undergrowth. WTB messaging tearing things limb from limb and beating them with said limbs. Muhahhahaha.
>Backtraining the ranks really wasn't all that bad.
Meh. Not hard, but a huge time sink.
-pete
<<Because... well... yeah, someone finally realized if Guild A can kill something with a spell and only needs 1 skill (PM) that's non combat trainable, and Guild B needs 2 skills (PM and TM) and one of them is not combat trainable... Guild A is actually the one coming out ahead.
Much love for you Mozzik, but that is the worst summary I have seen you post. Happy to discuss with you via email or IM as I doubt folks want to read another debate on this change.
<<The can is highly polished and from certain angles appears to reflect light.
And from certain angles much rust. The most punitive change since I have been playing.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
Much love for you Mozzik, but that is the worst summary I have seen you post. Happy to discuss with you via email or IM as I doubt folks want to read another debate on this change.
<<The can is highly polished and from certain angles appears to reflect light.
And from certain angles much rust. The most punitive change since I have been playing.
Madigan
"le rage du paladine" Korsik
Rereading that it perhaps wasn't too clear - but the gist is true.
For a long time TDPs/circle reqs aside a spell being TM was more of a hinderance as opposed to a contested damage spell.
It'd be like if Paladins had a skill called "Armor" that they needed in order to wear armor on top of the heavy plate skill, but everyone else could just wear heavy plate.
Note; I'm not really commenting on how the grandfathering was done, just that the fact that spells could randomly just... skip a skill check in effect wasn't exactly good game design, and the fact that most of these spells existed for the tert guilds made it worse.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
For a long time TDPs/circle reqs aside a spell being TM was more of a hinderance as opposed to a contested damage spell.
It'd be like if Paladins had a skill called "Armor" that they needed in order to wear armor on top of the heavy plate skill, but everyone else could just wear heavy plate.
Note; I'm not really commenting on how the grandfathering was done, just that the fact that spells could randomly just... skip a skill check in effect wasn't exactly good game design, and the fact that most of these spells existed for the tert guilds made it worse.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
I've been training TM because it's easy to keep moving as a tertiary skill. It's slow but doable if you're training at least 2 sets of weapons. For me, 1 set of weapons consists of as many different weapons i can keep moving at the same time.
My ranger's TM is 29 ranks above his main weapons and i can't seem to be able to use it effectively yet.
It still requires me to put too much power and targetting time into the spells.
Against shalswar, for example, i can kill them easily with weapons between 220 and 240 but not able to hit them accurately with TM.
When does TM become useful at level? Is this because we dont have third tier TM spells?
1st Highest: Slings - 243
2nd Highest: Long Bow - 243
3rd Highest: Medium Blunt - 241
TM: 272
Agility is 60 and discipline is 45
My ranger's TM is 29 ranks above his main weapons and i can't seem to be able to use it effectively yet.
It still requires me to put too much power and targetting time into the spells.
Against shalswar, for example, i can kill them easily with weapons between 220 and 240 but not able to hit them accurately with TM.
When does TM become useful at level? Is this because we dont have third tier TM spells?
1st Highest: Slings - 243
2nd Highest: Long Bow - 243
3rd Highest: Medium Blunt - 241
TM: 272
Agility is 60 and discipline is 45
Have you tried using TM to supplement whatever weapon you're using? Prep and target, attack a couple times, cast? Reduces your "wasted" target time and adds damage on top of what you'd normally doing.
Jalika
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Ragran's pockets and carefully grab a platinum.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Jalika
Moving carefully, you slip your hand into Ragran's pockets and carefully grab a platinum.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
>Have you tried using TM to supplement whatever weapon you're using? Prep and target, attack a couple times, cast? Reduces your "wasted" target time and adds damage on top of what you'd normally doing.
Even more so...
eng, prep, target, hide, wait for melee, ambush, cast
eng, prep, target, load, aim, hide, wait for full aim, snipe, cast
Your TM will do more damage in conjunction with the immediate effects of the prior hit and have the benefit of being at full target.
-pete
Even more so...
eng, prep, target, hide, wait for melee, ambush, cast
eng, prep, target, load, aim, hide, wait for full aim, snipe, cast
Your TM will do more damage in conjunction with the immediate effects of the prior hit and have the benefit of being at full target.
-pete
I use EC for training and DEVI for damage.
<<Have you tried using TM to supplement whatever weapon you're using? Prep and target, attack a couple times, cast? Reduces your "wasted" target time and adds damage on top of what you'd normally doing.
Yep. That's the reason i started training TM. I dont use it much but it works great, specially with longbow.
Unfortunately, i still can't hit shalswar consistently after an attack unless the attack stunned it.
Does TM require more skill to hit a creature than weapons?
<<Have you tried using TM to supplement whatever weapon you're using? Prep and target, attack a couple times, cast? Reduces your "wasted" target time and adds damage on top of what you'd normally doing.
Yep. That's the reason i started training TM. I dont use it much but it works great, specially with longbow.
Unfortunately, i still can't hit shalswar consistently after an attack unless the attack stunned it.
Does TM require more skill to hit a creature than weapons?
I'm gonna disagree with the above.. I know rangers don't have spells quite as strong as clerics, but I'm in the same boat.. TM is 35 ranks higher than my primary weapon.
I find TM more often than not is far more effective than the weapon. Granted, I have ~10 different TM spells to choose from, that do different sorts of primary damage (FF-impact, HORN-puncture, FoU-fire, and so on).
Oftentimes, it's more based on what a creature is resistant to which spell I and up using -- but I can tell you for certain that with ~400 TM I can kill cinder beasts in 2-3 casts of HORN (not even with full targeting), yet with ~365 medium edged I have a fair amount of difficulty. I use a sabre, so both methods are primarily puncture damage, which in my book makes it a good comparison.
Discipline plays a pretty big role in TM but not in weapon, so that's the biggest modifier I can think of that would turn things in TM's favor for me. (60 disc/59 agil).
Anyway, I've officially written a lot and not sure I've said much.
tl;dr -- 400 TM is more effective than 365 ME for me, but I'm a cleric not a ranger.
Segmere
Shadow Priest, Baron's Own Militia
"The best cure for insomnia is to get a lot of sleep." ~WC Fields
I find TM more often than not is far more effective than the weapon. Granted, I have ~10 different TM spells to choose from, that do different sorts of primary damage (FF-impact, HORN-puncture, FoU-fire, and so on).
Oftentimes, it's more based on what a creature is resistant to which spell I and up using -- but I can tell you for certain that with ~400 TM I can kill cinder beasts in 2-3 casts of HORN (not even with full targeting), yet with ~365 medium edged I have a fair amount of difficulty. I use a sabre, so both methods are primarily puncture damage, which in my book makes it a good comparison.
Discipline plays a pretty big role in TM but not in weapon, so that's the biggest modifier I can think of that would turn things in TM's favor for me. (60 disc/59 agil).
Anyway, I've officially written a lot and not sure I've said much.
tl;dr -- 400 TM is more effective than 365 ME for me, but I'm a cleric not a ranger.
Segmere
Shadow Priest, Baron's Own Militia
"The best cure for insomnia is to get a lot of sleep." ~WC Fields
> tl;dr -- 400 TM is more effective than 365 ME for me, but I'm a cleric not a ranger.
Playing both a ranger and a cleric I have noticed that DEVI and STRA (on the ranger) don't stack up well against HOT or FF (I know FF is third tier). In general I train TM because it's stupid easy and I <3 TDPs from PM/Harness/TM ranks, but it's never a consideration for dealing real damage in invasions or PvP as a ranger. Your mana is better spent on BB/HB/Buffs than TM. Furthermore I still stick with spamming EB as the most time/mana efficient way to lock TM on either character.
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
Tolle says, "Yup yup, 'bout time. What the heck took you so long?"
Playing both a ranger and a cleric I have noticed that DEVI and STRA (on the ranger) don't stack up well against HOT or FF (I know FF is third tier). In general I train TM because it's stupid easy and I <3 TDPs from PM/Harness/TM ranks, but it's never a consideration for dealing real damage in invasions or PvP as a ranger. Your mana is better spent on BB/HB/Buffs than TM. Furthermore I still stick with spamming EB as the most time/mana efficient way to lock TM on either character.
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
Tolle says, "Yup yup, 'bout time. What the heck took you so long?"
>I'm gonna disagree with the above.. I know rangers don't have spells quite as strong as clerics, but I'm in the same boat.. TM is 35 ranks higher than my primary weapon.
>I find TM more often than not is far more effective than the weapon. Granted, I have ~10 different TM spells to choose from, that do different sorts of primary damage (FF-impact, HORN-puncture, FoU-fire, and so on).
cleric TM > ranger TM at the same tier from what I have seen with a cleric at the same TM ranks as my ranger. No issue with that against undead. That's where clerics should shine, but it seems to be across the board.
It is good to note that STRA and DEVI do different kinds of physical damage so it is smart to have both spells.
I really want my 3rd tier TM.... And eventually my 4th tier TM.
-pete
>I find TM more often than not is far more effective than the weapon. Granted, I have ~10 different TM spells to choose from, that do different sorts of primary damage (FF-impact, HORN-puncture, FoU-fire, and so on).
cleric TM > ranger TM at the same tier from what I have seen with a cleric at the same TM ranks as my ranger. No issue with that against undead. That's where clerics should shine, but it seems to be across the board.
It is good to note that STRA and DEVI do different kinds of physical damage so it is smart to have both spells.
I really want my 3rd tier TM.... And eventually my 4th tier TM.
-pete
Devitalize actually hits harder than HoT, though not by much. The main difference between the two is that they have substantially different secondary damage types.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
>Devitalize actually hits harder than HoT, though not by much. The main difference between the two is that they have substantially different secondary damage types.
That explains it. Impact damage is pretty awesome no matter what form (<3 you lochaber axe).
>Secondary = cold damage from life magic?
Must be.
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
Tolle says, "Yup yup, 'bout time. What the heck took you so long?"
That explains it. Impact damage is pretty awesome no matter what form (<3 you lochaber axe).
>Secondary = cold damage from life magic?
Must be.
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
Tolle says, "Yup yup, 'bout time. What the heck took you so long?"
