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All right, I recognize that the vast majority of our players are American, and come from a society with a viewpoint that says "hereditary nobility is very bad for everything!" but folks:
Your. Characters. Don't.
Your characters grew up in Elanthia, where hereditary nobility is the norm and has been in all the provinces for at least a couple generations. Noble rule should be /normal/ to most characters. Rebels should be relatively few and far between!
Just needed to express my thoughts on the matter.
Trantris says "One does not pet holy sharks."
Yea, its amazing how many rp critics there are out there and so many of them don't grasp the basic rp concept of adopting a different mentality aside from American. You should hear the idiotic statements by some characters IG that would make someone wonder if they were born on another planet or something. I almost fall out of my chair laughing (in disgust) when I hear ignorant comments like, "The Prince? I didn't vote for him," or "that should be for the people to decide!" <insert any other democratic modern quote used IG here> I guess in any rpg there will be self-induced retardation.
B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes
Your mind hears Renala thinking, "lady morganbin good evening *big cuddles an smooches*"
Un...Be...Lievable...
B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes
Your mind hears Renala thinking, "lady morganbin good evening *big cuddles an smooches*"
Un...Be...Lievable...
Yeah, I notice this trend too. Look at how many people talk bad about the prince, want to be rebels, dont care about the consequences, etc.
Reality: If you were stupid enough to openly talk bad about nobility, youd probably pay with your tongue at the very least, at the most your life. Death is too trivialized in DR. Death is meaningless to most players, they treat it more like fainting or something. There should be very steep punishments for people like that. A vacation on pokekehekepi beach is still Sammee's recommendation, the M'riss penal colony is FAR too nice a punishment.
Reality: If you were stupid enough to openly talk bad about nobility, youd probably pay with your tongue at the very least, at the most your life. Death is too trivialized in DR. Death is meaningless to most players, they treat it more like fainting or something. There should be very steep punishments for people like that. A vacation on pokekehekepi beach is still Sammee's recommendation, the M'riss penal colony is FAR too nice a punishment.
Actually the only strong IC opposition to a monarchy I would see as coming from the Clergy.
The clergy would be more inclined to having a Theistic state. <And of course themselves as getting a large "cut" of the offerings as the gods "official representation." :-) <which certainly existed in ancient times - see the opposition to appointing the first king in biblical times, or the Pharoahs, who dealt with this potential opposition by declaring themselves to be gods.>
~Weak of arm,crazy roar;
terrible aim,awful health;
broken fingers,no real stealth;
leave em dead,stabbed some more;
lost your coins,on the floor;
greetings!now you're out the door~
>
The clergy would be more inclined to having a Theistic state. <And of course themselves as getting a large "cut" of the offerings as the gods "official representation." :-) <which certainly existed in ancient times - see the opposition to appointing the first king in biblical times, or the Pharoahs, who dealt with this potential opposition by declaring themselves to be gods.>
~Weak of arm,crazy roar;
terrible aim,awful health;
broken fingers,no real stealth;
leave em dead,stabbed some more;
lost your coins,on the floor;
greetings!now you're out the door~
>
Well I personally don't support the prince, but don't do anything to hinder him. It don't matter either way what he does as I'm not a citizen of Zoulren.
It the people that think I need to follow him when I'm in the area that bugs me. I'm not going to speak out against him, but there are things I do not agree with so I'm not going to help him cause I could care less what happens to him.
Brablo of M'riss
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/FatherJarle/index.html
Live by the shield, die by the shield.
It the people that think I need to follow him when I'm in the area that bugs me. I'm not going to speak out against him, but there are things I do not agree with so I'm not going to help him cause I could care less what happens to him.
Brablo of M'riss
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/FatherJarle/index.html
Live by the shield, die by the shield.
Ok, so DR isn't exactly like it was during medieval times. That's fine, it's pseudo-medieval times, so to speak. Acceptable?
Now, what DR is NOT is a democractic government. It's alright to say it's a democractic once or twice and then be corrected. But, to continously state that you think the Prince should vote his way to power or vote his law into affect. Uh, no.
There are monarchies in all governments on the mainland (Ilithi, Zoluren, Therengia). Each has a separate government with different characters showing different characteristics in themselves.
With each rebel type character I have to face, I always ask if they are ready for the possible consequences that they might face. Some say yes, some say no. That's fine, but you cannot say you are ready to become a rebel and then not be ready for a group to oppose you - then when you die, you cry "foul!" It shows you are not fully committed to becoming a rebel.
Each character should be allowed to follow their own storyline, but don't use mechanics of the system to scapegoat your way out of a situation. For instance, we know death is nothing more then a lost favor for now. That's workable because it makes the game playable for many of us as players. But, if you start acting like death means nothing to your character, it shows a disrespect to the players around you. As long as you can RP your death with some sort of meaning behind it; that would work.
Don't try and become a rebel if your not prepared for it. The rewards should be great, but the penalties are great just the same.
Ruffles Scourge of the Seas
The Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaankeeees win!
Now, what DR is NOT is a democractic government. It's alright to say it's a democractic once or twice and then be corrected. But, to continously state that you think the Prince should vote his way to power or vote his law into affect. Uh, no.
There are monarchies in all governments on the mainland (Ilithi, Zoluren, Therengia). Each has a separate government with different characters showing different characteristics in themselves.
With each rebel type character I have to face, I always ask if they are ready for the possible consequences that they might face. Some say yes, some say no. That's fine, but you cannot say you are ready to become a rebel and then not be ready for a group to oppose you - then when you die, you cry "foul!" It shows you are not fully committed to becoming a rebel.
Each character should be allowed to follow their own storyline, but don't use mechanics of the system to scapegoat your way out of a situation. For instance, we know death is nothing more then a lost favor for now. That's workable because it makes the game playable for many of us as players. But, if you start acting like death means nothing to your character, it shows a disrespect to the players around you. As long as you can RP your death with some sort of meaning behind it; that would work.
Don't try and become a rebel if your not prepared for it. The rewards should be great, but the penalties are great just the same.
Ruffles Scourge of the Seas
The Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaankeeees win!
>>>And yet, you also forget that Elanthia is -NOT- Medieval Europe.<<<
I don't think anyone here is saying that it is. Only that there are certain realities that would be consistent with the fact that the Provinces have been feudal for many generations, and that democracy is an unknown concept. Not only have the provinces used a feudal system, but their monarchs have been successful and beloved for the most part.
The kneejerk reactions that many characters have against 'pompous royalty' makes, in general, no sense at all, unless you remember that their players have been trained from birth to think that feudalism is a bad word and that George Washington cut down a cherry tree before he began the fated march of progress to the promised land of democracy.
That being said, I do have a character who thinks nobles and royals are superfluous. That's because she was raised in the wild in a near-feral state and only thinks in terms of eating, keeping warm in the winter, and not letting others take her things. She thinks that baths are superfluous.
---Brett
I don't think anyone here is saying that it is. Only that there are certain realities that would be consistent with the fact that the Provinces have been feudal for many generations, and that democracy is an unknown concept. Not only have the provinces used a feudal system, but their monarchs have been successful and beloved for the most part.
The kneejerk reactions that many characters have against 'pompous royalty' makes, in general, no sense at all, unless you remember that their players have been trained from birth to think that feudalism is a bad word and that George Washington cut down a cherry tree before he began the fated march of progress to the promised land of democracy.
That being said, I do have a character who thinks nobles and royals are superfluous. That's because she was raised in the wild in a near-feral state and only thinks in terms of eating, keeping warm in the winter, and not letting others take her things. She thinks that baths are superfluous.
---Brett
<<Your characters grew up in Elanthia, where hereditary nobility is the norm and has been in all the provinces for at least a couple generations. Noble rule should be /normal/ to most characters. Rebels should be relatively few and far between!
Among the general populace, yeah. But among the kind of individual who ends up becoming a career adventurer? No, such folk often have the mindset of the rogue and adventure because they don't wish to 'work for a living' or conform to the expectations of society. They seek to get around the constraints of system and quite often would resent anything or anyone who would presume to claim authority over them ... not just nobility, any form of government. It is not a huge leap to conclude that the sort of person who would seek to gain mastery of the very forces of nature themselves through magic, or dedicate their lives to the immortals, for example might find any sort of mundane government official or leader an annoyance at best, a threat to their ultimate self-determination at worst.
Rebels are relatively few and far between. But then, compared to the population as a whole, so are adventurers.
Among the general populace, yeah. But among the kind of individual who ends up becoming a career adventurer? No, such folk often have the mindset of the rogue and adventure because they don't wish to 'work for a living' or conform to the expectations of society. They seek to get around the constraints of system and quite often would resent anything or anyone who would presume to claim authority over them ... not just nobility, any form of government. It is not a huge leap to conclude that the sort of person who would seek to gain mastery of the very forces of nature themselves through magic, or dedicate their lives to the immortals, for example might find any sort of mundane government official or leader an annoyance at best, a threat to their ultimate self-determination at worst.
Rebels are relatively few and far between. But then, compared to the population as a whole, so are adventurers.
<<<Among the general populace, yeah. But among the kind of individual who ends up becoming a career adventurer? No, such folk often have the mindset of the rogue and adventure because they don't wish to 'work for a living' or conform to the expectations of society. They seek to get around the constraints of system and quite often would resent anything or anyone who would presume to claim authority over them ... not just nobility, any form of government. It is not a huge leap to conclude that the sort of person who would seek to gain mastery of the very forces of nature themselves through magic, or dedicate their lives to the immortals, for example might find any sort of mundane government official or leader an annoyance at best, a threat to their ultimate self-determination at worst.
Rebels are relatively few and far between. But then, compared to the population as a whole, so are adventurers.>>>
This argument would be well and good, but it seems 90% of the people in DR fall under your excuse for why this is ok. I just think stiffer IC punishments would teach people that if they want to RP being a rebel, they should learn to pay the price.
The reason I think people roleplaying rebels is laughable is because they all use services provided only under the good graces of said ruler of province (at least on the mainlands).
Bank holding their coins (Yeah, thats right, the ruler could decide tomorrow he doesnt want a bank. You use the bank, yeah, you are using a service allowed only because of the ruler.
Vaults: yeah, they store your stuff. Thank the prince, Ferdahl, or Baron if its in their province.
Guilds: Yeah, you may hate to admit it, but these guilds are all endorsed by the provincial leadership. Dont beleive me? Remember the BFA? Ask Zblizz what Agonar thinks about him acting that way.
Shops: Yeah, heres another one, for obvious reasons.
Now, there are a few exceptions to these above examples, but for the most part, this holds true. So for all the people wanting to RP a REAL rebel. Dont use the bank, dont store items in your vault, dont enter the cities. Dont use the ferries. Dont use the barge. See how well you fare without all these things, and if you can manage, then you are a TRUE rebel. if you cant, you are pretty hypocritical as far as im concerned. I love when the prince siezes peoples vaults or bank accounts. Its just punishment, well deserved.
Rebels are relatively few and far between. But then, compared to the population as a whole, so are adventurers.>>>
This argument would be well and good, but it seems 90% of the people in DR fall under your excuse for why this is ok. I just think stiffer IC punishments would teach people that if they want to RP being a rebel, they should learn to pay the price.
The reason I think people roleplaying rebels is laughable is because they all use services provided only under the good graces of said ruler of province (at least on the mainlands).
Bank holding their coins (Yeah, thats right, the ruler could decide tomorrow he doesnt want a bank. You use the bank, yeah, you are using a service allowed only because of the ruler.
Vaults: yeah, they store your stuff. Thank the prince, Ferdahl, or Baron if its in their province.
Guilds: Yeah, you may hate to admit it, but these guilds are all endorsed by the provincial leadership. Dont beleive me? Remember the BFA? Ask Zblizz what Agonar thinks about him acting that way.
Shops: Yeah, heres another one, for obvious reasons.
Now, there are a few exceptions to these above examples, but for the most part, this holds true. So for all the people wanting to RP a REAL rebel. Dont use the bank, dont store items in your vault, dont enter the cities. Dont use the ferries. Dont use the barge. See how well you fare without all these things, and if you can manage, then you are a TRUE rebel. if you cant, you are pretty hypocritical as far as im concerned. I love when the prince siezes peoples vaults or bank accounts. Its just punishment, well deserved.
<<Now, there are a few exceptions to these above examples, but for the most part, this holds true. So for all the people wanting to RP a REAL rebel. Dont use the bank, dont store items in your vault, dont enter the cities. Dont use the ferries. Dont use the barge. See how well you fare without all these things, and if you can manage, then you are a TRUE rebel. if you cant, you are pretty hypocritical as far as im concerned. I love when the prince siezes peoples vaults or bank accounts. Its just punishment, well deserved. >>
I don't know about that. A character might be a hypocrit and still be a TRUE rebel. They are two separate issues. It might just be "a means to an end" type thing for your character's RP.
<<I just think stiffer IC punishments would teach people that if they want to RP being a rebel, they should learn to pay the price.>>
I was thinking about this before I posted before. A few ideas came to mind, but I personally disregarded them as unplayable. The goal is this:
Make it so that RPing of a rebel has excellent rewards, but at the same time - terrible penalties attached to that style of character play.
Let's list what we have so far, for punishment:
Lower tiered Rebel penalties
* Crimes against the state (a meager fine of a few platinum).
Higher tiered Rebel penalties
* Possible death, based on the province your in.
* Not having the Guildleader in your province allow you to advance.
* Exile to another location.
* Stripping you of all or most of your items (especially your weapons and armor) until you are found "sane" to exist in the local province.
Possible penalties (in case they don't exist):
* Not being able to enter the Province - maybe the local monarchy can aquire mages to create force fields that do not give you access into that province (this would also not allow you to enter the province if someone was trying to lead you in). Or, you can just add a few guards at the location where one province changes to another.
* Holding all your funds in the province for an extended time period. (You cannot use your premie transferring service to switch your coins from a province/city your banned in, to a city your not banned in).
* Holding back many or all public facilities to the rebel who commits a crime against the state for an extended period to be decided by the local government (Public Forge, shops, things of that nature).
Increasing the actual fine for crimes against the state would be fine for some folks and not fine for others. Personally, I can afford to pay a 1,000 platinum fine. But, that's not really feasible for other characters. So, that suggestion is out. You might also think - why not make the crimes against the state charge to be scaled based on how much wealth the person has? That's not fair for folks like me to pay 5,000 platinum compared to someone who has to pay 10 platinum. (Very akin to how much TDPs and coins cost for removing or adding a spell slot in the Library at Throne City - Don't do this idea.) So, that suggestion should be ruled out.
Each government should decide to handle it's rebels in it's own fashion. Sending them to the prison near M'riss/Mer'kresh might be suitable for Zoluren's case (Zoluren people and Rissian people have strong ties historically), but it might not be suitable for Therengia's case.
Ruffles Scourge of the Seas
The Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaankeeees win!
I don't know about that. A character might be a hypocrit and still be a TRUE rebel. They are two separate issues. It might just be "a means to an end" type thing for your character's RP.
<<I just think stiffer IC punishments would teach people that if they want to RP being a rebel, they should learn to pay the price.>>
I was thinking about this before I posted before. A few ideas came to mind, but I personally disregarded them as unplayable. The goal is this:
Make it so that RPing of a rebel has excellent rewards, but at the same time - terrible penalties attached to that style of character play.
Let's list what we have so far, for punishment:
Lower tiered Rebel penalties
* Crimes against the state (a meager fine of a few platinum).
Higher tiered Rebel penalties
* Possible death, based on the province your in.
* Not having the Guildleader in your province allow you to advance.
* Exile to another location.
* Stripping you of all or most of your items (especially your weapons and armor) until you are found "sane" to exist in the local province.
Possible penalties (in case they don't exist):
* Not being able to enter the Province - maybe the local monarchy can aquire mages to create force fields that do not give you access into that province (this would also not allow you to enter the province if someone was trying to lead you in). Or, you can just add a few guards at the location where one province changes to another.
* Holding all your funds in the province for an extended time period. (You cannot use your premie transferring service to switch your coins from a province/city your banned in, to a city your not banned in).
* Holding back many or all public facilities to the rebel who commits a crime against the state for an extended period to be decided by the local government (Public Forge, shops, things of that nature).
Increasing the actual fine for crimes against the state would be fine for some folks and not fine for others. Personally, I can afford to pay a 1,000 platinum fine. But, that's not really feasible for other characters. So, that suggestion is out. You might also think - why not make the crimes against the state charge to be scaled based on how much wealth the person has? That's not fair for folks like me to pay 5,000 platinum compared to someone who has to pay 10 platinum. (Very akin to how much TDPs and coins cost for removing or adding a spell slot in the Library at Throne City - Don't do this idea.) So, that suggestion should be ruled out.
Each government should decide to handle it's rebels in it's own fashion. Sending them to the prison near M'riss/Mer'kresh might be suitable for Zoluren's case (Zoluren people and Rissian people have strong ties historically), but it might not be suitable for Therengia's case.
Ruffles Scourge of the Seas
The Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaankeeees win!
<<Only that there are certain realities that would be consistent with the fact that the Provinces have been feudal for many generations, and that democracy is an unknown concept.
Who says?
<<This argument would be well and good, but it seems 90% of the people in DR fall under your excuse for why this is ok.
Which explains why the penalties are so light and the established government virtually leaves adventurer types alone ... they fear organized rebellion from large numbers of very powerful and inherently uncontrollable individuals who if organized against them would present a threat that would make Sorrow look like an amateur.
<<The reason I think people roleplaying rebels is laughable is because they all use services provided only under the good graces of said ruler of province (at least on the mainlands).
Only because the game isn't developed enough to provide the underground alternatives that would self-evidently exist in any sort of real world. We can't exactly bury our treasure, you know.
Who says?
<<This argument would be well and good, but it seems 90% of the people in DR fall under your excuse for why this is ok.
Which explains why the penalties are so light and the established government virtually leaves adventurer types alone ... they fear organized rebellion from large numbers of very powerful and inherently uncontrollable individuals who if organized against them would present a threat that would make Sorrow look like an amateur.
<<The reason I think people roleplaying rebels is laughable is because they all use services provided only under the good graces of said ruler of province (at least on the mainlands).
Only because the game isn't developed enough to provide the underground alternatives that would self-evidently exist in any sort of real world. We can't exactly bury our treasure, you know.
>>>Like what? Like the harsh consequences certain well known rebels against Vorclaf suffered? <<<
I think most of us are aware that during that time, the GMs were hobbled against doing realistic responses, and Vorclaf was played by a different GM. Far as I recall, there have been a lot of change in what the event GMs and consequently the sovereigns are allowed to do to disruptive folks.
While it is true that many 'adventurers' are outside the norm, that does not mean they are automatically foolish and anarchist. I think we'll hear a lot less about such things as being the 'adventurer's mindset' when more characters get their bank accounts seized, guild lockouts in place, true banishments on pain of execution, and houses and possessions taken away.
---Brett
<<<Which explains why the penalties are so light and the established government virtually leaves adventurer types alone ... they fear organized rebellion from large numbers of very powerful and inherently uncontrollable individuals who if organized against them would present a threat that would make Sorrow look like an amateur.
>>>
No...I think its more of players OOCly knowing Simu wont harm them because they pay their bills. I think thats more of what it is. Simu doesnt want to ruin the game for a player by walking them, even tho thats what they deserve. Thats what SHOULD happen though.
>>>
No...I think its more of players OOCly knowing Simu wont harm them because they pay their bills. I think thats more of what it is. Simu doesnt want to ruin the game for a player by walking them, even tho thats what they deserve. Thats what SHOULD happen though.
<<Like what? Like the harsh consequences certain well known rebels against Vorclaf suffered? >>
I talk to them or they talk to me and we discuss if they are ready for the possible feedback they will receive from the public who largely opposes them. This is just a way for them and I to be assured of possible insults/death thrown there way (Nothing to the extreme - like walking). I might recommend them to start gaining more favors or be aware of possible situations.
This also helps so they can't REPORT people for unconsented PvP after they are aware of the situation.
Ruffles Scourge of the Seas
The Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaankeeees win!
I talk to them or they talk to me and we discuss if they are ready for the possible feedback they will receive from the public who largely opposes them. This is just a way for them and I to be assured of possible insults/death thrown there way (Nothing to the extreme - like walking). I might recommend them to start gaining more favors or be aware of possible situations.
This also helps so they can't REPORT people for unconsented PvP after they are aware of the situation.
Ruffles Scourge of the Seas
The Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaankeeees win!
<<Which explains why the penalties are so light and the established government virtually leaves adventurer types alone ... they fear organized rebellion from large numbers of very powerful and inherently uncontrollable individuals who if organized against them would present a threat that would make Sorrow look like an amateur.>>
I don't know about that. I think it's mainly an OOC issue of GMs trying to make things fun, keep in-line with the storyline at hand, and still playable. That could be the case of fear within the government, but I'd disagree with it. Seems like the people that the monarchy hires are extremely buff characters who would probably wipe out a good majority of adventurers - Zoranyl is one example. Him, along with a few other Provincial Guards could definetly hold their own in combat against a majority of us.
Ruffles Scourge of the Seas
The Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaankeeees win!
I don't know about that. I think it's mainly an OOC issue of GMs trying to make things fun, keep in-line with the storyline at hand, and still playable. That could be the case of fear within the government, but I'd disagree with it. Seems like the people that the monarchy hires are extremely buff characters who would probably wipe out a good majority of adventurers - Zoranyl is one example. Him, along with a few other Provincial Guards could definetly hold their own in combat against a majority of us.
Ruffles Scourge of the Seas
The Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaankeeees win!
<<I don't know about that. I think it's mainly an OOC issue of GMs trying to make things fun
Of course it is. But then, that's the whole point of the game ... fun.
And fun to many players means marching to the beat of their own drum without having to cowtow to authority. After all, we have to do that in real life.
But that doesn't mean that such consessions for the sake of fun don't have to be explained IC. The Realms are what they are. Death is what it is.
Pretending that things aren't as they are doesn't make much sense to me. I've seen folk who get mad when a deader talks. They seem to think that because they don't like the fact that in elanthia the dead are accompanied by a disembodied spirit that is quite capable of conversation, that good role-play requires that those spirits don't converse. But in Elanthia, the dead CAN speak. They can laugh, they can moan... there is no point in pretending things aren't as they are. One has to accept 'game reality' for what it is. The same applies to death in general. In Elanthia, with favor of the Gods, death IS only a speed bump. It is simply how things work in the Elanthian universe. That things were designed that way for playability is irrelevant, it's still what it is.
The same is true of the governments attitude against adventurers. No matter why the GMs make the choices they do, those choices have to be defined in IC terms and accepted as Elanthian reality, and acted on or reacted to in that context.
Of course it is. But then, that's the whole point of the game ... fun.
And fun to many players means marching to the beat of their own drum without having to cowtow to authority. After all, we have to do that in real life.
But that doesn't mean that such consessions for the sake of fun don't have to be explained IC. The Realms are what they are. Death is what it is.
Pretending that things aren't as they are doesn't make much sense to me. I've seen folk who get mad when a deader talks. They seem to think that because they don't like the fact that in elanthia the dead are accompanied by a disembodied spirit that is quite capable of conversation, that good role-play requires that those spirits don't converse. But in Elanthia, the dead CAN speak. They can laugh, they can moan... there is no point in pretending things aren't as they are. One has to accept 'game reality' for what it is. The same applies to death in general. In Elanthia, with favor of the Gods, death IS only a speed bump. It is simply how things work in the Elanthian universe. That things were designed that way for playability is irrelevant, it's still what it is.
The same is true of the governments attitude against adventurers. No matter why the GMs make the choices they do, those choices have to be defined in IC terms and accepted as Elanthian reality, and acted on or reacted to in that context.
Medieval society was the way it was because people feared pain and death. Neither of those are a factor in Elanthia society.
Tell me, why should I obey a prince when he tells me I have to do something I don't want? What is he going to do to me? Kill me? Send me to jail?
These things happen on more than a daily basis. What is left to fear? What else can he possibly do to me? In a world with no pain and meaningless death, there is no place for sovereignty.
Litharius
______________________________________________________________
No sprinkles! For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you!
-Stewie Griffin
Tell me, why should I obey a prince when he tells me I have to do something I don't want? What is he going to do to me? Kill me? Send me to jail?
These things happen on more than a daily basis. What is left to fear? What else can he possibly do to me? In a world with no pain and meaningless death, there is no place for sovereignty.
Litharius
______________________________________________________________
No sprinkles! For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you!
-Stewie Griffin
You can still have fun and RP a rebel against the monarchy and society. One main problem - the slap on the wrist type of punishment. Part of this was alleviated when one province allowed death to be justifiable for future rebels of the state.
<<But that doesn't mean that such consessions for the sake of fun don't have to be explained IC. The Realms are what they are. Death is what it is.>>
Most of us are not arguing on the stance of making death more meanigful. It's not really our department to see what death will be, although folks can make suggestions over in the Cleric folders.
<<The same is true of the governments attitude against adventurers. No matter why the GMs make the choices they do, those choices have to be defined in IC terms and accepted as Elanthian reality, and acted on or reacted to in that context. >>
Definetly agreed. But, people do understand that some punishments are lax currently and still need adjusting. Allowing a known rebel against the state to exist in the Province he just committed does not make much sense - depending on the severity of what was done and it's possible outcome. This is why some people are trying to post ideas of what YOU as a player feel should be a new penalty to playing a criminial against the monarchy.
While I am thinking of penalties for that type of RP, I'm still trying to take into account that it's not impossible for that character to overcome that type of penalty. An example here: In the end, it's still fun to try and challenge yourself to defeat "Vorclaf's tyranny" and show him that you are stronger for defying his punishment and words.
We didn't even get into the rewards of what a criminal against the state should achieve if he puts his/her neck on the line. Depends on the situation of course, but what are some ideas that you guys have for this of reward?
Ruffles Scourge of the Seas
The Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaankeeees win!
<<But that doesn't mean that such consessions for the sake of fun don't have to be explained IC. The Realms are what they are. Death is what it is.>>
Most of us are not arguing on the stance of making death more meanigful. It's not really our department to see what death will be, although folks can make suggestions over in the Cleric folders.
<<The same is true of the governments attitude against adventurers. No matter why the GMs make the choices they do, those choices have to be defined in IC terms and accepted as Elanthian reality, and acted on or reacted to in that context. >>
Definetly agreed. But, people do understand that some punishments are lax currently and still need adjusting. Allowing a known rebel against the state to exist in the Province he just committed does not make much sense - depending on the severity of what was done and it's possible outcome. This is why some people are trying to post ideas of what YOU as a player feel should be a new penalty to playing a criminial against the monarchy.
While I am thinking of penalties for that type of RP, I'm still trying to take into account that it's not impossible for that character to overcome that type of penalty. An example here: In the end, it's still fun to try and challenge yourself to defeat "Vorclaf's tyranny" and show him that you are stronger for defying his punishment and words.
We didn't even get into the rewards of what a criminal against the state should achieve if he puts his/her neck on the line. Depends on the situation of course, but what are some ideas that you guys have for this of reward?
Ruffles Scourge of the Seas
The Yankees win, theeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaankeeees win!
Remember, you also don't need to go trying to tear down the State just to show you dislike them.
I had fun a week or two back when the Riverhaven mayor got kidnaped, tortured, etc. Larcus wasn't terribly impressed with what he saw, so I carefully chose his wording and off-hand comments (when said Mayor had *left the room*) to reflect the fact that he thought the mayor was a bloody daft fool that could run strong competition with a head of cabbage.
This in no way involved pitch-forks and torches. Hell, if done quietly enough it'd been perfectly in place with many period balls and others social occasions (and, unfortunately, many balls and social occasions in modern times, too).
Larcus' Player
"It's a metaphor of human bloody existence, a dragon. And if that wasn't bad enough, it's also a bloody great hot flying thing." -- Terry Pratchett
I had fun a week or two back when the Riverhaven mayor got kidnaped, tortured, etc. Larcus wasn't terribly impressed with what he saw, so I carefully chose his wording and off-hand comments (when said Mayor had *left the room*) to reflect the fact that he thought the mayor was a bloody daft fool that could run strong competition with a head of cabbage.
This in no way involved pitch-forks and torches. Hell, if done quietly enough it'd been perfectly in place with many period balls and others social occasions (and, unfortunately, many balls and social occasions in modern times, too).
Larcus' Player
"It's a metaphor of human bloody existence, a dragon. And if that wasn't bad enough, it's also a bloody great hot flying thing." -- Terry Pratchett
<<And fun to many players means marching to the beat of their own drum without having to cowtow to authority. After all, we have to do that in real life.
>>
We don't live in a medieval based society such as those which a vast majority of fantasy rpg's are including Dragonrealms. The statement about having to cowtow to authority sounds as if that is a thing frowned upon. People need to realize it is -not- degrading or immoral to "bow to authority." It is expected and the norm. Players, IMO, too often act as if being a rebel to authority is the "cool" thing to do and it shows. Thats so 16 year old modern American.
<<The same applies to death in general. In Elanthia, with favor of the Gods, death IS only a speed bump. It is simply how things work in the Elanthian universe. That things were designed that way for playability is irrelevant, it's still what it is.
>>
I dissagree. It is far from irrelevant. Sounds like the line between true RP and respecting IG limitations is blurred here. Your not supposed to attack someone without consent but you can IG if you so choose. Is that irrelevant? Nope. Those who think so will possibly learn the harsh reality in lock out some day. Reason? Just because you -can- do it IG doesn't mean you -should- and such things are considered by GMs as -abuse-. Slapping the Prince at an audience is as simple as typing it on your keyboard. Things in Elanthia are what they are? No. How -likely- would it be for someone at a Prince's audience to slap him in front of the guards and everyone else? More than likely the person would never be allowed that close to begin with.
<<The same is true of the governments attitude against adventurers. No matter why the GMs make the choices they do, those choices have to be defined in IC terms and accepted as Elanthian reality, and acted on or reacted to in that context>>
What attitude against adventurers? I agree there should be IG explanations for what GMs do. It is naive to expect that to always be possible however. If the GMs held us to the same strict standards many characters would have walked by now because it would make IG sense to do so. I would love to see how many would be willing to accept reasonable consequences for their actions if it wasn't for the paying customer part. It would be very interesting.
B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes
Your mind hears Renala thinking, "lady morganbin good evening *big cuddles an smooches*"
Un...Be...Lievable...
>>
We don't live in a medieval based society such as those which a vast majority of fantasy rpg's are including Dragonrealms. The statement about having to cowtow to authority sounds as if that is a thing frowned upon. People need to realize it is -not- degrading or immoral to "bow to authority." It is expected and the norm. Players, IMO, too often act as if being a rebel to authority is the "cool" thing to do and it shows. Thats so 16 year old modern American.
<<The same applies to death in general. In Elanthia, with favor of the Gods, death IS only a speed bump. It is simply how things work in the Elanthian universe. That things were designed that way for playability is irrelevant, it's still what it is.
>>
I dissagree. It is far from irrelevant. Sounds like the line between true RP and respecting IG limitations is blurred here. Your not supposed to attack someone without consent but you can IG if you so choose. Is that irrelevant? Nope. Those who think so will possibly learn the harsh reality in lock out some day. Reason? Just because you -can- do it IG doesn't mean you -should- and such things are considered by GMs as -abuse-. Slapping the Prince at an audience is as simple as typing it on your keyboard. Things in Elanthia are what they are? No. How -likely- would it be for someone at a Prince's audience to slap him in front of the guards and everyone else? More than likely the person would never be allowed that close to begin with.
<<The same is true of the governments attitude against adventurers. No matter why the GMs make the choices they do, those choices have to be defined in IC terms and accepted as Elanthian reality, and acted on or reacted to in that context>>
What attitude against adventurers? I agree there should be IG explanations for what GMs do. It is naive to expect that to always be possible however. If the GMs held us to the same strict standards many characters would have walked by now because it would make IG sense to do so. I would love to see how many would be willing to accept reasonable consequences for their actions if it wasn't for the paying customer part. It would be very interesting.
B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes
Your mind hears Renala thinking, "lady morganbin good evening *big cuddles an smooches*"
Un...Be...Lievable...
<<<I would love to see how many would be willing to accept reasonable consequences for their actions if it wasn't for the paying customer part. It would be very interesting.>>>
Indeed, Seihjin's player. I agree wholeheartedly. People very much enjoy hiding behind the paying customer OOC knowledge nothing THAT bad can happen to them, and act accordingly. The only person ive seen to date in DR who DIDNT act that way was Palefox, and he faced a realistic result for his actions. And even then, he forced HIMSELF to walk, Provincial guard Amlach did everything possible to help palefox save giving him favors (paladins didnt have that spell released yet I dont beleive anyway)
~Sammee's player
Indeed, Seihjin's player. I agree wholeheartedly. People very much enjoy hiding behind the paying customer OOC knowledge nothing THAT bad can happen to them, and act accordingly. The only person ive seen to date in DR who DIDNT act that way was Palefox, and he faced a realistic result for his actions. And even then, he forced HIMSELF to walk, Provincial guard Amlach did everything possible to help palefox save giving him favors (paladins didnt have that spell released yet I dont beleive anyway)
~Sammee's player
<<The statement about having to cowtow to authority sounds as if that is a thing frowned upon.
To some, it is. Some of the most interesting characters in fantasy literature are the ones who walked their own path and refused to play the role of the lemming.
<<People need to realize it is -not- degrading or immoral to "bow to authority."
There are conformists and non-conformists. This is and has always been true. Both are equally valid roles.
<<Players, IMO, too often act as if being a rebel to authority is the "cool" thing to do and it shows. Thats so 16 year old modern American.
So only sixteen year old Americans exercise free will? Maybe I'm missing your point, as resentment of authority is neither something exclusive to teenagers or to Americans. There are criminals and people who despise existing power structure in every culture.
<<Slapping the Prince at an audience is as simple as typing it on your keyboard. Things in Elanthia are what they are? No. How -likely- would it be for someone at a Prince's audience to slap him in front of the guards and everyone else?
There is a difference between someone who swears no allegence to and resents whatever inbred bloodlines are currently propped up as 'nobility' by society and someone who is an utter idiot. Of course someone so foolish should be drawn and quartered.
<<What attitude against adventurers?
Bad choice of words. I meant the manner in which the government chooses to deal with individuals who run contrary to the law ... including treasonists. Murder, for example, is not a capital offense in Elanthia. The government instead chooses to use such actions as an oppurtunity to impose a fine on the criminal and fill it's coffers. It is therefor appropriate to play your character as if being fined is the likely result of killing someone ... consent issues aside.
As to the death thing, exactly how many times does an individual have to die before he becomes jaded to the experience? I mean, it's hard to treat your three hundredth death as any sort of traumatic experience, you know. It's not bad RP for a character who has literally been killed more times than he can count to not take death particularly seriously. One of my favorite episodes of Highlander was the one with the bank robber who in the 20s would rob a bank then escape justice by letting the feds shoot and bury him, only to have Duncan come and dig him up later, hehe. Such attitudes aren't particularly inappropriate to someone for whom death isn't permanant.
Adventurer types are, after all, probably the sort of folk who are addicted to adrenaline rushes. It's hard for someone who faces down the sort of horrors adventurers fight on a daily basis not to have inflated egos. :-P
<<<To some, it is. Some of the most interesting characters in fantasy literature are the ones who walked their own path and refused to play the role of the lemming.>>>
Yes, when this character is unique, it is interesting. In DR, I find there are less characters actually loyal to the nobility then there are rebelling against it. VERY bad RP. OOCness flowing over for sure.
<<There are conformists and non-conformists. This is and has always been true. Both are equally valid roles.>>>
See above
<<<So only sixteen year old Americans exercise free will? Maybe I'm missing your point, as resentment of authority is neither something exclusive to teenagers or to Americans. There are criminals and people who despise existing power structure in every culture.>>>
Free will? to a point you should have it. But you cant seriously be denying that people are taking OOC american democratic views and applying them to elanthian culture. Thats exactly what is happening. In a medeival world, you need to BE your character. Democracy is something that is unheard of at this time. Sure, there are some who hate royalty, but speaking about it openly in such a public forum is ludicrous. They should be beheaded.
<<<There is a difference between someone who swears no allegence to and resents whatever inbred bloodlines are currently propped up as 'nobility' by society and someone who is an utter idiot. Of course someone so foolish should be drawn and quartered.>>>
Agreed. But in DR, thats not really a big punishment. People die and still TALK DOWN to the person who killed them while they are dead. Its ludicrous. They should be walked instead, thats REAL death.
Yes, when this character is unique, it is interesting. In DR, I find there are less characters actually loyal to the nobility then there are rebelling against it. VERY bad RP. OOCness flowing over for sure.
<<There are conformists and non-conformists. This is and has always been true. Both are equally valid roles.>>>
See above
<<<So only sixteen year old Americans exercise free will? Maybe I'm missing your point, as resentment of authority is neither something exclusive to teenagers or to Americans. There are criminals and people who despise existing power structure in every culture.>>>
Free will? to a point you should have it. But you cant seriously be denying that people are taking OOC american democratic views and applying them to elanthian culture. Thats exactly what is happening. In a medeival world, you need to BE your character. Democracy is something that is unheard of at this time. Sure, there are some who hate royalty, but speaking about it openly in such a public forum is ludicrous. They should be beheaded.
<<<There is a difference between someone who swears no allegence to and resents whatever inbred bloodlines are currently propped up as 'nobility' by society and someone who is an utter idiot. Of course someone so foolish should be drawn and quartered.>>>
Agreed. But in DR, thats not really a big punishment. People die and still TALK DOWN to the person who killed them while they are dead. Its ludicrous. They should be walked instead, thats REAL death.
<<<<The statement about having to cowtow to authority sounds as if that is a thing frowned upon.
To some, it is. Some of the most interesting characters in fantasy literature are the ones who walked their own path and refused to play the role of the lemming.
>>
Yes, to some. In DR it appears many times to be the overwhelming majority. So much so that the RP becomes far too common, watered down, and actually causes being loyal in DR to be rogue like.
<<There are conformists and non-conformists. This is and has always been true. Both are equally valid roles.
>>
Equally valid I agree again, but far too unequally distributed in favor of rebells. The point is not that it doesn't happen, but that it isn't realistic on such a grand scale even in a fantasy rpg. Just too common.
<<<<Players, IMO, too often act as if being a rebel to authority is the "cool" thing to do and it shows. Thats so 16 year old modern American.
So only sixteen year old Americans exercise free will? Maybe I'm missing your point, as resentment of authority is neither something exclusive to teenagers or to Americans. There are criminals and people who despise existing power structure in every culture.
>>
No. Free will wasn't quite a concept then, so of course not. Not nearly to the degree it is now. My point is that people act like it was through their RP sometimes. The mention of sixteen year old Americans is due to the fact that it seems to be such a widespread trend for teenagers at that phase of their lives to be rebels against authority no matter what walk of life. Hense the paralell to widespread rebelious attitudes by characters IG when such a thing would not be nearly so tolerated, not nearly.
<<There is a difference between someone who swears no allegence to and resents whatever inbred bloodlines are currently propped up as 'nobility' by society and someone who is an utter idiot. Of course someone so foolish should be drawn and quartered.
>>
I agree. I think its interesting to note though that since punishments have been increased from the Palefox time to now, there have been interestingly far less aggressive acts towards monarchs during audiences and such. Direct that is, dunno about behind the scenes and in private.
<<One of my favorite episodes of Highlander was the one with the bank robber who in the 20s would rob a bank then escape justice by letting the feds shoot and bury him, only to have Duncan come and dig him up later, hehe. Such attitudes aren't particularly inappropriate to someone for whom death isn't permanant.
>>
Heh, I love Highlander. Favorite drama/action series of all time. Love it.
B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes
Your mind hears Renala thinking, "lady morganbin good evening *big cuddles an smooches*"
Un...Be...Lievable...
To some, it is. Some of the most interesting characters in fantasy literature are the ones who walked their own path and refused to play the role of the lemming.
>>
Yes, to some. In DR it appears many times to be the overwhelming majority. So much so that the RP becomes far too common, watered down, and actually causes being loyal in DR to be rogue like.
<<There are conformists and non-conformists. This is and has always been true. Both are equally valid roles.
>>
Equally valid I agree again, but far too unequally distributed in favor of rebells. The point is not that it doesn't happen, but that it isn't realistic on such a grand scale even in a fantasy rpg. Just too common.
<<<<Players, IMO, too often act as if being a rebel to authority is the "cool" thing to do and it shows. Thats so 16 year old modern American.
So only sixteen year old Americans exercise free will? Maybe I'm missing your point, as resentment of authority is neither something exclusive to teenagers or to Americans. There are criminals and people who despise existing power structure in every culture.
>>
No. Free will wasn't quite a concept then, so of course not. Not nearly to the degree it is now. My point is that people act like it was through their RP sometimes. The mention of sixteen year old Americans is due to the fact that it seems to be such a widespread trend for teenagers at that phase of their lives to be rebels against authority no matter what walk of life. Hense the paralell to widespread rebelious attitudes by characters IG when such a thing would not be nearly so tolerated, not nearly.
<<There is a difference between someone who swears no allegence to and resents whatever inbred bloodlines are currently propped up as 'nobility' by society and someone who is an utter idiot. Of course someone so foolish should be drawn and quartered.
>>
I agree. I think its interesting to note though that since punishments have been increased from the Palefox time to now, there have been interestingly far less aggressive acts towards monarchs during audiences and such. Direct that is, dunno about behind the scenes and in private.
<<One of my favorite episodes of Highlander was the one with the bank robber who in the 20s would rob a bank then escape justice by letting the feds shoot and bury him, only to have Duncan come and dig him up later, hehe. Such attitudes aren't particularly inappropriate to someone for whom death isn't permanant.
>>
Heh, I love Highlander. Favorite drama/action series of all time. Love it.
B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes
Your mind hears Renala thinking, "lady morganbin good evening *big cuddles an smooches*"
Un...Be...Lievable...
>>>To some, it is. Some of the most interesting characters in fantasy literature are the ones who walked their own path and refused to play the role of the lemming.<<<
>>>So only sixteen year old Americans exercise free will?<<<
I look at these statements and see an overwhelming bias. Loyalty to something or someone does not mean you are a lemming. Rebelling is not the equivalent of free will.
---Brett
>>>So only sixteen year old Americans exercise free will?<<<
I look at these statements and see an overwhelming bias. Loyalty to something or someone does not mean you are a lemming. Rebelling is not the equivalent of free will.
---Brett
>>Rebelling is not the equivalent of free will.
Very very true. I play my character exactly that way. I'm not rebelling against the nobles being in power, or rebelling against the province or being a traitor or any of those things. I roleplay my character as valuing free will over all else, and while that means that I will never be FORCED into doing things (even by nobility) I will also not go attacking the prince to show that "he doesn't control me."
Rebellion and free will are two totally different things, and most people really don't play the difference out well in their characters.
-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia
It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.
Very very true. I play my character exactly that way. I'm not rebelling against the nobles being in power, or rebelling against the province or being a traitor or any of those things. I roleplay my character as valuing free will over all else, and while that means that I will never be FORCED into doing things (even by nobility) I will also not go attacking the prince to show that "he doesn't control me."
Rebellion and free will are two totally different things, and most people really don't play the difference out well in their characters.
-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia
It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.
Although the majority of my characters have allegiance to one ruler or another, or at worst, indifference, Coine has a profound dislike for Vorclaf. She still would never intentionally be rude to him or attack him, she just avoids him (and Darius...for the same reasons).
One of my characters has a strong allegiance to Vorclaf and believes him to be not only the rightful sovereign, but the best as well.
It all depends on the character, what the character's personality is like, what their history is and how that personality fits in with the 'scheme of things' in DR.
There is place in Elanthia for those who feel rebellious, those who feel the need for 'free will', those who give loyalty, those who follow blindly (loyalty does not necessarily mean following blindly), and those who are indifferent. Just make sure it is your -character- doing these things and not you because of a preconceived RL notion.
~S.T.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
One of my characters has a strong allegiance to Vorclaf and believes him to be not only the rightful sovereign, but the best as well.
It all depends on the character, what the character's personality is like, what their history is and how that personality fits in with the 'scheme of things' in DR.
There is place in Elanthia for those who feel rebellious, those who feel the need for 'free will', those who give loyalty, those who follow blindly (loyalty does not necessarily mean following blindly), and those who are indifferent. Just make sure it is your -character- doing these things and not you because of a preconceived RL notion.
~S.T.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
Also recognize, that some characters do not believe in monarchy and are used to open terrains where the only "rulers" were the clan Shamans/Councilmembers. I play a Prydaen that dislikes any form of authority such as a monarch. Which is why he doesn't stay in one place for very long. He also has a dislike for paladin <shrugs>.
Just remember, there is more than one way to play your character, and not all are "rebels" and not all are "supporters" some are just there. And they couldn't care less who wins or loses.
The Merc.
Just remember, there is more than one way to play your character, and not all are "rebels" and not all are "supporters" some are just there. And they couldn't care less who wins or loses.
The Merc.
<<What is left to fear? What else can he possibly do to me? In a world with no pain and meaningless death, there is no place for sovereignty.
This is a rather easy problem to solve. People would have a lot more respect for governmental authority if each ruler could order the seizure of bank accounts and vault items in the particular province. How about executions and one is not allowed to depart for 30 minutes - not too sure how it would be explained IG. The body is guarded, so rejuvs are impossible, leading to the forced experience loss. Despite death and pain being trivial parts of the adventurer's life, there are many, many other ways to send a clear, painful message.
This is a rather easy problem to solve. People would have a lot more respect for governmental authority if each ruler could order the seizure of bank accounts and vault items in the particular province. How about executions and one is not allowed to depart for 30 minutes - not too sure how it would be explained IG. The body is guarded, so rejuvs are impossible, leading to the forced experience loss. Despite death and pain being trivial parts of the adventurer's life, there are many, many other ways to send a clear, painful message.
>How about executions and one is not allowed to depart for 30 minutes - not too sure how it would be explained IG.
There are methods to make someone walk even if they have favors....and there are punishments of a similar nature. It should be a fairly simple thing to keep someones spirit bound to their body for a time.
-Chris
No matter where light goes...it will find darkness has been there first.
There are methods to make someone walk even if they have favors....and there are punishments of a similar nature. It should be a fairly simple thing to keep someones spirit bound to their body for a time.
-Chris
No matter where light goes...it will find darkness has been there first.
<<There are criminals and people who despise existing power structure in every culture.>>
that is an assumption that the criminal is opposed to the current power structure, rather than seeking to corrupt it from behind the scenes to his/her own ends.
<<the true power lies in the shadows that pool behind the leaders, the lords, and the ladies. In a world of power and politics, the greatest power is the one that remains unseen, lurking just beneath the surface, providing information in exchange for money or manipulation.>>
I'm sure some of you will recognize the author of that quote. <G>
-me-
~Weak of arm,crazy roar;
terrible aim,awful health;
broken fingers,no real stealth;
leave em dead,stabbed some more;
lost your coins,on the floor;
greetings!now you're out the door~
>
that is an assumption that the criminal is opposed to the current power structure, rather than seeking to corrupt it from behind the scenes to his/her own ends.
<<the true power lies in the shadows that pool behind the leaders, the lords, and the ladies. In a world of power and politics, the greatest power is the one that remains unseen, lurking just beneath the surface, providing information in exchange for money or manipulation.>>
I'm sure some of you will recognize the author of that quote. <G>
-me-
~Weak of arm,crazy roar;
terrible aim,awful health;
broken fingers,no real stealth;
leave em dead,stabbed some more;
lost your coins,on the floor;
greetings!now you're out the door~
>
