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I thought about posting this in conflicts but I realized it's not a conflict at all, but a general observation and perhaps inquiry I want to make.
As time passes, the social aspect of Necromancy seems to be going down the same road as Thieves did years ago. As much as I want to deny it I see it becoming more and more accepted amongst PCs, even if it never actually reaches the status that Thieves have right now. I have been coming across what feels like countless characters in support of Necromancy, or 'playing the fence' so to speak, to the point where I can't honestly continue take the RP of it seriously for my character.
First off let me state this... my interactions with every Necromancer I've come across has been superb. Zerreck, Sepharus, and original Tote to name a few. Completely outstanding times, so hats off to those guys (and others I haven't interacted with) that maintain consistent RP with their bad characters.
My dilemma is in dealing with various 'on the fence' characters that are quick to criticize or oppose anyone taking aggression against Necromancy. Often times it feels as if my character is not in a world where Necromancy is viewed terribly, but rather in a world where it is accepted and he's a fanatic just for being against it. These interactions not only happen over the gweth but in person. Interestingly enough, a lot of these characters don't seem to want to jump in to fully support the Necromancer. Instead, they can look 'cool' by not being against Necromancy yet still maintain a strong social status without being shunned as a supporter. DR has always been a social game and unfortunately this sometimes tramples all over RP, which brings me to my next point.
People can do what they want, which is fine to me. It's not a problem for me if 80% of the game decided to accept Necromancy and get huggly smoochy with it. My question is... if I'm finding it increasingly difficult to take the non-GMPC Necromancy RP seriously, where should I go from here? I believe I'm getting to the point where I want to just ignore any and all things Necromancy since it is becoming rather immersion-breaking for me with all the general acceptance I've been seeing. However, by taking this approach I feel like I would be doing nothing but contributing to the issue. And that would sort of fly in the face of the actual PC Necromancers that have spent quite a bit of time building up their own unique RP, to whom I want to always be available to conflict with and have fun. I think consistently RP'ed bad guys deserve a better response than, "Oh hi and welcome, your presence means nothing because you can't attack me/don't have consent unless I attack your zombie. Tootles!" -or- "Oh umm, yeah dude nothing is wrong with Necromancy at all. He's my friend OOC and he's cool OOC so it's cool. Your character is a fanatic for being RP'ed as opposing it."
This is not to name the large number of factors involved with PC Necromancers, such as seeing them hunting or in passing. I've taken a general 'ignore them unless they're literally trying to cause trouble' response for the sake of playability and respect for the players behind the characters. But when I start to feel that the general atmosphere involving Necromancy is leaning towards acceptance even while they're literally trying to cause trouble (stemmed not from RP origins, but primarily because of the social aspect of the game), it begins to feel too cheesy and makes me want to block out that whole part of the game.
So what would you do? Hypothetically speaking, if you're playing a character opposing it, how would you respond as a player?
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Well said!!!!!
I dunno what to do on the necromancer end to help this not be the case :( Do I play Perverse and just attack wantonly till people hate me as a player just so they can remain some consistant RP in the game? That just sounds silly to me though. That said I have had some good conflict interactions with a few characters in the game haven't formally met Vinjince yet but if you continue to play I'm sure it will happen. Kenamer always plays his Holy Knight of Justice role with me fairly well I like that. Met a few others recently who I can play Khiol how he was meant to be played with, not just PvP but some argument/debate going on too which is awesome. Oh yea Mordibar! Mordi HATES Khiol for some of my Rakash RP stuff which Rakash/Necro = As bad as it gets for em. He's always done justice when it was due even at cost to himself.
In short I see it some but its scarce, and its sad that that is so. Is it some of the necromancer players fault somehow? Or is the support just to appealing to people because it carries no real weight on thier end? Its a rough subject that is hard to approach...
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
I dunno what to do on the necromancer end to help this not be the case :( Do I play Perverse and just attack wantonly till people hate me as a player just so they can remain some consistant RP in the game? That just sounds silly to me though. That said I have had some good conflict interactions with a few characters in the game haven't formally met Vinjince yet but if you continue to play I'm sure it will happen. Kenamer always plays his Holy Knight of Justice role with me fairly well I like that. Met a few others recently who I can play Khiol how he was meant to be played with, not just PvP but some argument/debate going on too which is awesome. Oh yea Mordibar! Mordi HATES Khiol for some of my Rakash RP stuff which Rakash/Necro = As bad as it gets for em. He's always done justice when it was due even at cost to himself.
In short I see it some but its scarce, and its sad that that is so. Is it some of the necromancer players fault somehow? Or is the support just to appealing to people because it carries no real weight on thier end? Its a rough subject that is hard to approach...
"Burn him! Burn him!" You hear the cries echo around you as everyone in the vicinity suddenly moves away, giving you a wide berth! It goes without saying you'll be wanted for forbidden practices in The Rakash Village.
Honestly, I just don't care enough about Necromancers to be bothered either way really. They have zero impact on my character at the moment. I neither support them, nor oppose them since I don't think I've had any interaction with a Necro player. Social Corruption is a good mechanic to try and get the feeling of wanting players to be against the Necro guild as a whole, but for me and i'm guessing a lot of others based on your observations, it's just not enough to really make people care enough. I think it would be pretty damn hard to find a solution that isn't so restrictive that people quit out of frustration or so lax that it ends up turning into the new Thieves guild with everyone just being fine with it unless they're accosted.
From an RP perspective, Dano SHOULD be opposed to Necromancers, seeing as I want him to be a Mountain Elf, although, now that I think of it, I can't remember if Sidhlot was an alleged Sorcerer or a Necromancer. Anyhow, Dano should be opposed to it I suppose, but I just can't be bothered to be that interested in either side of the debate as a player, outside of any RP aspect.
It would probably take some pretty draconian mechanic implementations to make me care enough to fight Necromancy/Necromancers to be honest.
Blackguard Danoryiel
"Sogan udazama umbunor fau arrazoi inishatu seiremisai. (Only the fallen have nothing to despair)"
From an RP perspective, Dano SHOULD be opposed to Necromancers, seeing as I want him to be a Mountain Elf, although, now that I think of it, I can't remember if Sidhlot was an alleged Sorcerer or a Necromancer. Anyhow, Dano should be opposed to it I suppose, but I just can't be bothered to be that interested in either side of the debate as a player, outside of any RP aspect.
It would probably take some pretty draconian mechanic implementations to make me care enough to fight Necromancy/Necromancers to be honest.
Blackguard Danoryiel
"Sogan udazama umbunor fau arrazoi inishatu seiremisai. (Only the fallen have nothing to despair)"
People would be far more likely to express their disapproval of Necromancy (or ANYTHING, really) if there weren't so many people playing the generic "touch me and I'll kill you haha I'm such a badass >:3" characters.
It's not so much a Necromancy issue as it is an RP issue as a whole. Way too many people try to play "that" kind of bad guy, and it's just about never fun to be involved in.
It's not so much a Necromancy issue as it is an RP issue as a whole. Way too many people try to play "that" kind of bad guy, and it's just about never fun to be involved in.
>Often times it feels as if my character is not in a world where Necromancy is viewed terribly, but rather in a world where it is accepted and he's a fanatic just for being against it.
Any PC who holds strongly to the dominant world-view of Elanthia is going to risk coming off as unhinged to peers in the guilds. You're a member of a socially isolated and self-obsessed elite almost utterly cut off from the unguilded populace. That alone should be enough to make the average PC's behavior rather out-of-step with the social and metaphysical realities of Elanthia. Nevermind that a distressing percentage of them are demonstrably insane or their frequent personal interactions with the gods.
You don't need to be dealing with necromancy to hi-light this, you're going to have the same reaction -- or worse -- from other PCs if your character views murder terribly.
Any PC who holds strongly to the dominant world-view of Elanthia is going to risk coming off as unhinged to peers in the guilds. You're a member of a socially isolated and self-obsessed elite almost utterly cut off from the unguilded populace. That alone should be enough to make the average PC's behavior rather out-of-step with the social and metaphysical realities of Elanthia. Nevermind that a distressing percentage of them are demonstrably insane or their frequent personal interactions with the gods.
You don't need to be dealing with necromancy to hi-light this, you're going to have the same reaction -- or worse -- from other PCs if your character views murder terribly.
I agree with the points you made Vinjince, it is frustrating to see so many characters going on about "Necros are people too" and my character looked at as some sort of fanatic for opposing it. It seems no character remembers Lyras or the general lore and badness of Necromancy and just wants to get along because conflict, verbal or otherwise, is more difficult to RP I think. I get that there are players behind the necros and try to respect 'playability' for them, but really, it is supposed to be hard-mode DR, and it is discouraging to be accused of harassment or some such as I don't know if they are talking IC (Seb intends to harass so does not really care) or threatening an OOC report. I do not immediately go the violence route with Seb especially when I know he outclasses the necro. Having been on the receiving end of this kind of thing, I know it is no fun, so I generally try to have him achieve his goals verbally first.
<<So what would you do? Hypothetically speaking, if you're playing a character opposing it, how would you respond as a player?
When confronted with apathy or a necromancer, I stay true to Seb's loathing of necromancy and will call out the supporters and see where it leads. Just because the whole world is going bad, doesn't mean he will compromise his firm principles and beliefs.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
<<So what would you do? Hypothetically speaking, if you're playing a character opposing it, how would you respond as a player?
When confronted with apathy or a necromancer, I stay true to Seb's loathing of necromancy and will call out the supporters and see where it leads. Just because the whole world is going bad, doesn't mean he will compromise his firm principles and beliefs.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
So, so completely agree with everything Vinjince said. To my character, it is completely ridiculous that people would even have an opinion on Necromancy other than "Burn it!", to be sympathetic to them almost worse in some ways than being a Necromancer yourself (since the guilded Necros are clearly insane, and should just be put down like rabid dogs). As a player, it gets harder all the time to maintain social ties with people IG when it seems that the majority is perfectly alright with being supportive of Necromancers to some degree or another. Liuri and Sendi are in the same boat with you, Vinjince. Fanatic tea party later? We won't need a very large table, I guess. =)
Personally I think all this controversy makes for better RP than everyone agreeing and sticking to a single way of handling necromancers ever could.
It's good that it's causing people internal conflict to try to RP their hardline stances; to me it means that we're participating in a vibrant and dynamic world instead of just running around in a cliche.
It's good that it's causing people internal conflict to try to RP their hardline stances; to me it means that we're participating in a vibrant and dynamic world instead of just running around in a cliche.
Elriic's attitude on it is quite simple. The Philosophers of the Knife are insane, evil, and need to be purged in as spectacular a fashion as possible. He does NOT have a live and let live attitude. He does NOT want them to 'carve' their little niche in the world.
And anyone who does is an ignorant blasphemer themselves.
That last little bit is key.
The problem is working this within the confines of the consent policy. I really doubt a necromancer is going to report me for consent unless he's a complete nitwit. Its the rest of the smoochie-woochies that I'm worried about.
<<"earning too little skinning experience for a day or so isn't nearly as bad as having a spell that breaks your wings."
>>The Philosophers of the Knife are insane, evil, and need to be purged in as spectacular a fashion as possible
>>The problem is working this within the confines of the consent policy. I really doubt a necromancer is going to report me for consent unless he's a complete nitwit. Its the rest of the smoochie-woochies that I'm worried about.
Speaking as a mostly necromancer only player these days; I fully support this attitude and I wouldn't report anyone for 'purging' me 'in as spectacular a fashion as possible'.
My issue comes in with what should happen next. You've killed me to make your point, now what do we do? I'm not willing to stop playing, so generally speaking i'm going to want to stand back up, go deal with my wounds and then get back to training so the next fight might go better for me. Where does that leave us though?
Do you just ignore that I still live and breath and train? That seems like it wouldn't be very satisfying for the anti-necro roleplayers.
Or do you follow your in character convictions and find me where i'm healing/training and keep killing me until I get the hint and stay dead? That seems like it wouldn't be satisfying for me the necromancer player.
Where do we reach our compromise between the conflict that the in character lore demands with the reality that we're all playing a game?
>>The problem is working this within the confines of the consent policy. I really doubt a necromancer is going to report me for consent unless he's a complete nitwit. Its the rest of the smoochie-woochies that I'm worried about.
Speaking as a mostly necromancer only player these days; I fully support this attitude and I wouldn't report anyone for 'purging' me 'in as spectacular a fashion as possible'.
My issue comes in with what should happen next. You've killed me to make your point, now what do we do? I'm not willing to stop playing, so generally speaking i'm going to want to stand back up, go deal with my wounds and then get back to training so the next fight might go better for me. Where does that leave us though?
Do you just ignore that I still live and breath and train? That seems like it wouldn't be very satisfying for the anti-necro roleplayers.
Or do you follow your in character convictions and find me where i'm healing/training and keep killing me until I get the hint and stay dead? That seems like it wouldn't be satisfying for me the necromancer player.
Where do we reach our compromise between the conflict that the in character lore demands with the reality that we're all playing a game?
<<My issue comes in with what should happen next. You've killed me to make your point, now what do we do? I'm not willing to stop playing, so generally speaking i'm going to want to stand back up, go deal with my wounds and then get back to training so the next fight might go better for me. Where does that leave us though?
<<Where do we reach our compromise between the conflict that the in character lore demands with the reality that we're all playing a game?
I think the big key that we all need to remember is that it IS a game. We need to reconcile our RP with that overriding point.
That being said, I see it as "I killed that creep, he's being eaten by the worms. I've done my job for the day." It becomes up to the Necromancer at that point. Does -HE- seek me out for revenge? If so, then yes let the fertilizing continue!
Where does it end though comes down to the people involved. I've never been afraid to send an OOC message to someone... Look I think we've taken this far enough and now we're just being jackasses with one another.. Again keeping in mind the point made above.
I'm with Vinjince though getting back to the topic. It isn't the Necromancers that are the problem. Its the rest of the populace that really needs to stop and think about what they support. Just saying, "I don't mind necromancers" should create instant max social outrage imo. Couple weeks of that and this whole problem goes away.
<<So what would you do? Hypothetically speaking, if you're playing a character opposing it, how would you respond as a player?
Stay 100% true to my character. Go fight them. Two exceptions:
1. If it is a little Necro, I give them a long leash (and sometimes whisper to them) before I do anything.
2. I don't mess with people in hunting areas.
Hats off to all the necros I have dealt with to date.
Madigan
You sense the Clarity spell upon you, which will last for about seven thousand eight hundred thirty-six roisaen.
You sense the Anti-Stun spell upon you, which will last for about seven thousand eight hundred thirty-five roisaen.
Stay 100% true to my character. Go fight them. Two exceptions:
1. If it is a little Necro, I give them a long leash (and sometimes whisper to them) before I do anything.
2. I don't mess with people in hunting areas.
Hats off to all the necros I have dealt with to date.
Madigan
You sense the Clarity spell upon you, which will last for about seven thousand eight hundred thirty-six roisaen.
You sense the Anti-Stun spell upon you, which will last for about seven thousand eight hundred thirty-five roisaen.
As a player, I have played both sides of this fight. I have been the one that openly supports, and I have been the one that strongly opposes it. In a world where corruption levels are causing apathy in the society of adventurers (and I say this because the general society at is not comprised of players hates necromancy) I think it adds way more to the feel of the game to have those that feel strongly against it.
Often, it is harder to roleplay a Good Lawful character than it is to be evil or apathetic, but the end result is way more impressive to me than just coasting along "on the fence."
As a gm, play in the sandbox nicely, yo.
---
NaOH+HI
Often, it is harder to roleplay a Good Lawful character than it is to be evil or apathetic, but the end result is way more impressive to me than just coasting along "on the fence."
As a gm, play in the sandbox nicely, yo.
---
NaOH+HI
I'm not close to a HLC, and I take a more social but RP centric form of playing the game.
All that being said, I find that I'm powerless to have done much way back when this first started, PC made zombies ALWAYS have seemed vastly outclassing myself, I used to try and act the part of 'run for your lives' type of danger and volcano is spewing deadly magma flee or die type of scenario (or maybe some hero would show up and save the day), but that got old right off the bat, and people would be like why, you can just stand here and it won't attack. Which is fairly jarring but whatever.
As my main is a Thief and approaching guards isn't supposed to be done, oh you can do it but your not supposed to, so I don't. It's not a course of action I take, besides the fact that the Necromancers always seem to be greatly good a hidden, so mute point anyways.
Finally lately empaths, they don't care because they see that their shift ability being paired to make them seem more like a Necromancer, you can be given Forbidden Practices for openly shifting, and I believe even hounded if you do it often enough (I have an empath but it's not a main and hardly have logged onto the character). I see this mentality as a, well we never got the choice to beat them, we just got forced to join them, so blah. [I've never really backed the shifting ability once it was really explained to me what exactly was going in-game, I feel the ability to spice up, and have more detailed character description should be part of things like Scoins, and 'quest' like items, and part of the premium/platinum experience, but that is a huge digression].
Overall all I can really suggest is that it's a role-playing game, and people who take on a role of being louse with Necromancers are being louse with their future, basically they should have to reap what the sowed, and that should be all ways, dark, nasty, and very overt so that feel it.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
All that being said, I find that I'm powerless to have done much way back when this first started, PC made zombies ALWAYS have seemed vastly outclassing myself, I used to try and act the part of 'run for your lives' type of danger and volcano is spewing deadly magma flee or die type of scenario (or maybe some hero would show up and save the day), but that got old right off the bat, and people would be like why, you can just stand here and it won't attack. Which is fairly jarring but whatever.
As my main is a Thief and approaching guards isn't supposed to be done, oh you can do it but your not supposed to, so I don't. It's not a course of action I take, besides the fact that the Necromancers always seem to be greatly good a hidden, so mute point anyways.
Finally lately empaths, they don't care because they see that their shift ability being paired to make them seem more like a Necromancer, you can be given Forbidden Practices for openly shifting, and I believe even hounded if you do it often enough (I have an empath but it's not a main and hardly have logged onto the character). I see this mentality as a, well we never got the choice to beat them, we just got forced to join them, so blah. [I've never really backed the shifting ability once it was really explained to me what exactly was going in-game, I feel the ability to spice up, and have more detailed character description should be part of things like Scoins, and 'quest' like items, and part of the premium/platinum experience, but that is a huge digression].
Overall all I can really suggest is that it's a role-playing game, and people who take on a role of being louse with Necromancers are being louse with their future, basically they should have to reap what the sowed, and that should be all ways, dark, nasty, and very overt so that feel it.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
>>Just saying, "I don't mind necromancers" should create instant max social outrage imo. Couple weeks of that and this whole problem goes away.
I think that it would be interesting if interacting (intentional interactions like give/accept and friendly social interactions like hug/kiss/etc) with a necromancer gave the non-necromancer a SO hit.
I think that it would be interesting if interacting (intentional interactions like give/accept and friendly social interactions like hug/kiss/etc) with a necromancer gave the non-necromancer a SO hit.
I think that my biggest issue is that the default stance on necromancy these days seems to be apathy. There needs to be mechanical repercussions to hanging out with necromancers (probably only in justice areas). I think something like increasing SO automatically in a justice area in the presence of a necro, similar to how necromancers build up 'heat' in town for extended periods would work. There doesn't need to be huge sweeping changes. People will gravitate towards whatever roleplay is the least work for them. Right now it is less work to ignore necromancers or to be their friend than it is to stand up to them and risk a fight. If you might end up lynched for listening to that necro teach evasion outside the empath guild though I think the default stance would go from 'Yeah bro I don't care if you fondle corpses' to 'Hey I don't want a fight hut I really don't want to be around you. This would pretty much fix the immersion disconnect I feel in these situations. My character of course will continue to hate necromancers whether there is a change or not. After all, they aren't people anymore! :)
- Starlear -
- Starlear -
Society is scared of necromancers.
They're also scared of goblins, trolls, zombies, rats of unusual size, orcs, agitated pigs, notably sized bees, animated sheets of paper, etc.
Many heroes (aka: PCs), at some point, have killed necromancers.
They've also probably killed goblins, trolls, zombies, rats of unusual size, orcs, agitated pigs, notably sized bees, animated sheets of paper, etc.
I think it's reasonable that, at some point, most heroes will stop being terrified of Necromancers in the same scale/scope as the rest of society, just like PCs stop being terrified of goblins, trolls, rats, etc at a certain point. That's not to say they'll stop recognizing Necromancers as a threat to society as a whole, but I'm sure that after you kill your hundredth Isundjen Conjurer you're probably still not clawing at your eyes in terror while charging toward them.
It's like the Immortals. It looks like the Immortals only tend to take notable issue with Necromancers when they reach a certain level of power. I assume that's because they have trouble being too scared about the general din of Necromancy. It might be laziness, it might be recognizing the smaller ones as lesser threats that other people can take care of, or a mix.
Sure, there will still be people who see killing Necromancers as their "cause" but I bet even then there might be a point where they overlook the less threatening ones (because they have bigger fish to fry), just like most heroes don't really stop and kill every troll they see on the way to Adan'f, or how they don't stop to kill every gryphon on the way to intercessors, and so on.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
They're also scared of goblins, trolls, zombies, rats of unusual size, orcs, agitated pigs, notably sized bees, animated sheets of paper, etc.
Many heroes (aka: PCs), at some point, have killed necromancers.
They've also probably killed goblins, trolls, zombies, rats of unusual size, orcs, agitated pigs, notably sized bees, animated sheets of paper, etc.
I think it's reasonable that, at some point, most heroes will stop being terrified of Necromancers in the same scale/scope as the rest of society, just like PCs stop being terrified of goblins, trolls, rats, etc at a certain point. That's not to say they'll stop recognizing Necromancers as a threat to society as a whole, but I'm sure that after you kill your hundredth Isundjen Conjurer you're probably still not clawing at your eyes in terror while charging toward them.
It's like the Immortals. It looks like the Immortals only tend to take notable issue with Necromancers when they reach a certain level of power. I assume that's because they have trouble being too scared about the general din of Necromancy. It might be laziness, it might be recognizing the smaller ones as lesser threats that other people can take care of, or a mix.
Sure, there will still be people who see killing Necromancers as their "cause" but I bet even then there might be a point where they overlook the less threatening ones (because they have bigger fish to fry), just like most heroes don't really stop and kill every troll they see on the way to Adan'f, or how they don't stop to kill every gryphon on the way to intercessors, and so on.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
As a Necromancer lover (but anti-Necromancers/Necromancy in general), I certainly have no desire to see acceptance or even apathy become the norm. I'm not thrilled I'm no longer welcome in a lot of places, but I expected that. Carry on with your shunning!
-Artificer Nilassa
You notice Kssarh trying to remain hidden while speaking.
You hear the voice of Kssarh say, "Slackers."
-Artificer Nilassa
You notice Kssarh trying to remain hidden while speaking.
You hear the voice of Kssarh say, "Slackers."
Good input all around.
To PB: I see what you're saying. But I think there's a difference between not being terrified of something and accepting it. While PCs in general are not terrified by field goblins, let a field goblin or two walk into a city and watch them slaughter/conflict with them. There's also a fundamental difference between Necromancy and general enemies/critters.
From what I can tell, acceptance seems to be a by-product of the social aspect of the game. There ARE some characters that seem to be legitimately RP'ing 'on the fence' type of characters, as there are those who have legitimately RP'ed support for Necromancy. Nothing wrong with going that route, hope my original post wasn't misunderstood in that way.
Let me give a quick scenario of how it goes sometimes... and yes, it does tend to go like this. It's pretty Lol.
1. Jerry the Necro creates zombies in town.
2. Bob tells people present there is nothing wrong with Necromancy.
3. Bill tells people that Necromancy is forbidden.
4. Sally tells Bill no one cares.
5. Larry says Jerry is not a bad person when you get to know him.
6. Bob emphasizes support for Necromancy.
7. Bertha giggles at Bob and hugs him.
8. Joe tells people it can't attack them if they don't attack first.
9. Gary gweths that there is a zombie present, someone should come kill it.
10. Phil gweths that he uses Necromancy all the time, there's nothing wrong with it.
11. Katie gweths huggies and smoochies to Phil.
12. Jack gweths and asks Phil if he still has that cambrinth up for sale.
... and so on. :)
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
To PB: I see what you're saying. But I think there's a difference between not being terrified of something and accepting it. While PCs in general are not terrified by field goblins, let a field goblin or two walk into a city and watch them slaughter/conflict with them. There's also a fundamental difference between Necromancy and general enemies/critters.
From what I can tell, acceptance seems to be a by-product of the social aspect of the game. There ARE some characters that seem to be legitimately RP'ing 'on the fence' type of characters, as there are those who have legitimately RP'ed support for Necromancy. Nothing wrong with going that route, hope my original post wasn't misunderstood in that way.
Let me give a quick scenario of how it goes sometimes... and yes, it does tend to go like this. It's pretty Lol.
1. Jerry the Necro creates zombies in town.
2. Bob tells people present there is nothing wrong with Necromancy.
3. Bill tells people that Necromancy is forbidden.
4. Sally tells Bill no one cares.
5. Larry says Jerry is not a bad person when you get to know him.
6. Bob emphasizes support for Necromancy.
7. Bertha giggles at Bob and hugs him.
8. Joe tells people it can't attack them if they don't attack first.
9. Gary gweths that there is a zombie present, someone should come kill it.
10. Phil gweths that he uses Necromancy all the time, there's nothing wrong with it.
11. Katie gweths huggies and smoochies to Phil.
12. Jack gweths and asks Phil if he still has that cambrinth up for sale.
... and so on. :)
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Necromancy (i.e. the guild) has been a rather interesting topic of study since it's introduction.
We first had Lyras come ravage Elanthia. She brought her hoards of minions, and there were great losses. But mechanically what effects did the player-base (not the characters mind you, but the players themselves) see? I seem to recall there was an awesome story with tons of GM- and PC-led events. How can you not remember the invasions and generals? OMG the logs were entertaining beyond belief. We saw original hunting areas introduced (albeit temporarily) over commonly travel routes (for supreme recognition) that all had the #1 quality ever hunter wants - maximum spawn. Moon Mages gained the ability to instantly get back to Crossings at a moments notice without having to transverse the arduous (and dangerous) Astral Plane (see the Crossing Temple Crystal).
On the necromancer hunting side, during and then after Lyras' defeat, we saw two groups actively hunting for necromancers take center stage; these included a a group of religious zealots and The Inquisition (neither of which sound appealing from their names alone, let alone their actions). Both groups (admittedly the Hounds are a mechanic rather a person, but they still are viewed as a group) who at any time could come and snatch you away - either to kill you for you quote "misdeeds" quote or taken to an undisclosed dungeon where you would be sacrificed top the "Profane Aegis" (again another ominous name).
So I ask you, which side would you as a player like to have back? I know the story is telling you - "NECROMANCY IS EVIL - YOU SHOULD NEVER, EVER EVER GET BACK TOGETHER WITH IT," but is there enough of a reward there? Is there any reward on siding with good, other than to promote character versus character interactions?
I really feel that we as a community, GM and player alike need to think about where the story is taking ourselves. I know this is very meta, but looking back it feels that we've just not given enough reasons for the player-base to hate necromancy. We jumped to the more interesting grey first. And while that's probably far more intellectualy stimulating (and entertaining) to those of us who have been long time players or eventers to have the 'good guys' savagely hunting necromancers and sometimes catching and torturing seemingly innocent peasants, I don't think it's been a good promoter of establishing a status quo. And on top of it all, necromancers are the "new" guild. It's the shiny object that any returning player or slightly bored player looking for a way to shake up their daily playstyle.
I challenge not only the GMs but ourselves to find ways of stimulating the RP. In a world where Necromancy is a "bad" thing, there should be someone(s) who progresses what is now thought of as the 'mundane' perspective and makes it not mundane. People need to be out there showing us that necromancy is bad because all of the stars that I remember point to necromancy being good.
When we've established that, then necromancers will not just become another accepted thieves guild.
Nikpack
We first had Lyras come ravage Elanthia. She brought her hoards of minions, and there were great losses. But mechanically what effects did the player-base (not the characters mind you, but the players themselves) see? I seem to recall there was an awesome story with tons of GM- and PC-led events. How can you not remember the invasions and generals? OMG the logs were entertaining beyond belief. We saw original hunting areas introduced (albeit temporarily) over commonly travel routes (for supreme recognition) that all had the #1 quality ever hunter wants - maximum spawn. Moon Mages gained the ability to instantly get back to Crossings at a moments notice without having to transverse the arduous (and dangerous) Astral Plane (see the Crossing Temple Crystal).
On the necromancer hunting side, during and then after Lyras' defeat, we saw two groups actively hunting for necromancers take center stage; these included a a group of religious zealots and The Inquisition (neither of which sound appealing from their names alone, let alone their actions). Both groups (admittedly the Hounds are a mechanic rather a person, but they still are viewed as a group) who at any time could come and snatch you away - either to kill you for you quote "misdeeds" quote or taken to an undisclosed dungeon where you would be sacrificed top the "Profane Aegis" (again another ominous name).
So I ask you, which side would you as a player like to have back? I know the story is telling you - "NECROMANCY IS EVIL - YOU SHOULD NEVER, EVER EVER GET BACK TOGETHER WITH IT," but is there enough of a reward there? Is there any reward on siding with good, other than to promote character versus character interactions?
I really feel that we as a community, GM and player alike need to think about where the story is taking ourselves. I know this is very meta, but looking back it feels that we've just not given enough reasons for the player-base to hate necromancy. We jumped to the more interesting grey first. And while that's probably far more intellectualy stimulating (and entertaining) to those of us who have been long time players or eventers to have the 'good guys' savagely hunting necromancers and sometimes catching and torturing seemingly innocent peasants, I don't think it's been a good promoter of establishing a status quo. And on top of it all, necromancers are the "new" guild. It's the shiny object that any returning player or slightly bored player looking for a way to shake up their daily playstyle.
I challenge not only the GMs but ourselves to find ways of stimulating the RP. In a world where Necromancy is a "bad" thing, there should be someone(s) who progresses what is now thought of as the 'mundane' perspective and makes it not mundane. People need to be out there showing us that necromancy is bad because all of the stars that I remember point to necromancy being good.
When we've established that, then necromancers will not just become another accepted thieves guild.
Nikpack
I'm curious how you handled that scenario Vinjince. I think it would be a good catalyst to stir up some discussion/debate to turn them into actively supporting Necromancy. At that point, I've read where if someone is actively supporting Necromancy over the gweth or in front of multiple people, you could involve the GM's to institute Social Outrage and possible purging. Now, if that's really the case or not is TBD, I believe Armifer posted to let them know when something like that is occuring (See Walcar thread.)
What did you do?
What did you do?
I've had the same experience as Vee-Rex. The majority of PCs seem to be ambivalent about necromancy. I suspect that this is primarily for OOC and/or social reasons, although the desire to avoid PvP for taking a stand may play a role as well.
>>Teveshszat: I think it's reasonable that, at some point, most heroes will stop being terrified of Necromancers in the same scale/scope as the rest of society, just like PCs stop being terrified of goblins, trolls, rats, etc at a certain point.
The heroes of Elanthian society seem to tolerate invading monsters less than they tolerate necromancers (aside from immersion-breaking comments about how "fun" invasions are). Typically, as soon as an invasion is noticed, people mobilize to stop it. I rarely see that reaction to PC necromancers, even when they are openly flaunting their abilities.
Still, I would argue that the lore distinguishes between mundane threats (like vicious creatures) and the threats to existence as we know it that necromancy represents. That transcends issues like whether a particular necromancer can hurt your character (within the confines of policy) using the mechanics that are available to him. That's why it seems jarring for otherwise good, sane characters to tolerate necromancers.
>>Sebestyen64: When confronted with apathy or a necromancer, I stay true to Seb's loathing of necromancy and will call out the supporters and see where it leads. Just because the whole world is going bad, doesn't mean he will compromise his firm principles and beliefs.
This. My characters still condemn necromancy (albeit for somewhat different reasons). That may make them seem like zealots, but I don't mind as long as other players don't take OOC offense.
I think that an expansion of the SO mechanics would help to alleviate some of the OOC apathy. However, this could be challenging to implement, as it is often difficult to mechanically determine who tolerates the Necromancer and who doesn't. Some of the suggestions I like include accumulating SO for teaching or listening to well-known Necromancers (as indicated by turning the profession flag on, wearing Necromancer titles, having extremely high levels of SO/DO, or manually by GMs in response to the character's behavior).
>>Shadow7988: Finally lately empaths, they don't care because they see that their shift ability being paired to make them seem more like a Necromancer, you can be given Forbidden Practices for openly shifting, and I believe even hounded if you do it often enough (I have an empath but it's not a main and hardly have logged onto the character).
That issue has actually pushed my Empath in the opposite direction, being even more vocally anti-necromancy in an effort to distance herself from Necromancers. I have heard Empaths comparing intolerance toward necromancy with intolerance toward shifting and countered by suggesting that being tolerant of necromancy or comparing shifting to necromancy is likely to bring additional heat on those who are pushing for reform within the guild.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
>>Teveshszat: I think it's reasonable that, at some point, most heroes will stop being terrified of Necromancers in the same scale/scope as the rest of society, just like PCs stop being terrified of goblins, trolls, rats, etc at a certain point.
The heroes of Elanthian society seem to tolerate invading monsters less than they tolerate necromancers (aside from immersion-breaking comments about how "fun" invasions are). Typically, as soon as an invasion is noticed, people mobilize to stop it. I rarely see that reaction to PC necromancers, even when they are openly flaunting their abilities.
Still, I would argue that the lore distinguishes between mundane threats (like vicious creatures) and the threats to existence as we know it that necromancy represents. That transcends issues like whether a particular necromancer can hurt your character (within the confines of policy) using the mechanics that are available to him. That's why it seems jarring for otherwise good, sane characters to tolerate necromancers.
>>Sebestyen64: When confronted with apathy or a necromancer, I stay true to Seb's loathing of necromancy and will call out the supporters and see where it leads. Just because the whole world is going bad, doesn't mean he will compromise his firm principles and beliefs.
This. My characters still condemn necromancy (albeit for somewhat different reasons). That may make them seem like zealots, but I don't mind as long as other players don't take OOC offense.
I think that an expansion of the SO mechanics would help to alleviate some of the OOC apathy. However, this could be challenging to implement, as it is often difficult to mechanically determine who tolerates the Necromancer and who doesn't. Some of the suggestions I like include accumulating SO for teaching or listening to well-known Necromancers (as indicated by turning the profession flag on, wearing Necromancer titles, having extremely high levels of SO/DO, or manually by GMs in response to the character's behavior).
>>Shadow7988: Finally lately empaths, they don't care because they see that their shift ability being paired to make them seem more like a Necromancer, you can be given Forbidden Practices for openly shifting, and I believe even hounded if you do it often enough (I have an empath but it's not a main and hardly have logged onto the character).
That issue has actually pushed my Empath in the opposite direction, being even more vocally anti-necromancy in an effort to distance herself from Necromancers. I have heard Empaths comparing intolerance toward necromancy with intolerance toward shifting and countered by suggesting that being tolerant of necromancy or comparing shifting to necromancy is likely to bring additional heat on those who are pushing for reform within the guild.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
I think the main thing to remember is that many players are simply not that heavily into RP, and in many scenarios will shy away from conflict in whatever form. Perhaps it makes them uncomfortable because they simply don't see the same IC/OOC divide that heavy RPers do, so an attack on a character is viewed (in whole or in part) as an attack on the player.
I think that a mechanic such as the one Starlear suggested would at least physically keep them away from Necromancers, even if it doesn't change their attitude much. I'd like to see it.
As for what to do, I'm with the others who've said they stick to their guns. As more people in respected positions in the DR societies speak out -- and exclude supporters from fun things like militias and Orders -- well, hopefully their leadership will have an effect. It could even be a lever for getting the RP light people to consider more what RP means and learn about IC vs. OOC.
-- Player of Eyuve
I think that a mechanic such as the one Starlear suggested would at least physically keep them away from Necromancers, even if it doesn't change their attitude much. I'd like to see it.
As for what to do, I'm with the others who've said they stick to their guns. As more people in respected positions in the DR societies speak out -- and exclude supporters from fun things like militias and Orders -- well, hopefully their leadership will have an effect. It could even be a lever for getting the RP light people to consider more what RP means and learn about IC vs. OOC.
-- Player of Eyuve
>>I'm curious how you handled that scenario Vinjince.
I was involved in two separate situations similar to the list that I gave, both of which I was mainly preoccupied with dealing with the threat. I did have a few exchanges that resulted in a circular argument that was rather pointless; primarily because it wasn't a debate with people whose position was fueled by RP, but rather against those who were only sticking up for a friend or trying to be the cool, careless guy.
Interestingly enough, I did have a Necromancy meeting where I quite literally attempted to get Walcar to either support it or not, at which point he played the fence and wouldn't commit to one side. Then I was accused of being overly-accusatory from others and such, so I decided to leave it at that.
Thanks all for the suggestions. I think I'll try to stay true to my character's RP despite the lack of immersion for me. I'll perhaps refrain from getting involved in most Necromancy situations though (leave it to the Inquisition) and chalk it up to the general supportive populace being insanely attention-seeking goofs. :)
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I was involved in two separate situations similar to the list that I gave, both of which I was mainly preoccupied with dealing with the threat. I did have a few exchanges that resulted in a circular argument that was rather pointless; primarily because it wasn't a debate with people whose position was fueled by RP, but rather against those who were only sticking up for a friend or trying to be the cool, careless guy.
Interestingly enough, I did have a Necromancy meeting where I quite literally attempted to get Walcar to either support it or not, at which point he played the fence and wouldn't commit to one side. Then I was accused of being overly-accusatory from others and such, so I decided to leave it at that.
Thanks all for the suggestions. I think I'll try to stay true to my character's RP despite the lack of immersion for me. I'll perhaps refrain from getting involved in most Necromancy situations though (leave it to the Inquisition) and chalk it up to the general supportive populace being insanely attention-seeking goofs. :)
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
With me it's basically come down to threat level. If I played Leucius an I know name of evil and it is thee Necromancy! guy It would get old fast. One or two might be running in my Jailbreak game, sitting in a song circle or the like. In my world if a Necromancer has an Army it's serious bzns, if it's him and three freinds, whatever, he's like any other guy and three bad friends. Since what Vinjince says is pretty much true it also means Leucius has trouble taking most of them seriously. In fact in his mind almost all Necromancers are Emo kids with bad parenting.
Leucius
Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Leucius
Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
>>There's also a fundamental difference between Necromancy and general enemies/critters.
I agree completely, but at the same time I think that a lot of the hatred of Necromancy in society is entirely fear driven. Heroes kinda get over being scared a lot faster than the unwashed masses.
Not to say that they'll ever become tolerant of Necromancers as a whole, but I think they as a whole are a bit more educated and it would be rather atypical for them to always be fanatically afraid of Necromancers.
Looking at it in a more esoteric light: a lot of the major bad things about Necromancy stem from the general effects of [capital-S] Sorcery. Society still shuns Sorcery, but some guilds have Sorcery hidden in their own closets. So, guilds are okay with Sorcery, at least as an unspoken thing that goes on in their guild.
>>Let me give a quick scenario of how it goes sometimes... and yes, it does tend to go like this. It's pretty Lol.
Oh, I agree, a lot of the dynamics are... bizarre. At the same time, I can see how many world-traveled heroes of the realm eventually stop having the same panicked response to Necromancers that general society does. Some might be more indoctrinated against it (ie: Paladins and Clerics) but even then are Clerics and Paladins as a whole so fanatically focused on the threat of Necromancy that they dedicate their lives to only doing that?
I think a lot of heroes will eventually become desensitized to Necromancy as it becomes more publicly pervasive, just because they'll get bigger and stronger and in turn see them as less of a personal threat. Bob the dirt farmer will remain terrified, because all his dirt shoveling skills in the world won't really stop a guy who can conjure up acid bolts.
>>Typically, as soon as an invasion is noticed, people mobilize to stop it.
I'd chalk it up as a fun thing for players to do more than an explicitly IC response, but at the same time if I had to look at it in an IC lens when something abnormal takes place people tend to respond more than rote day to day activity. It's not like ogres and goblins are miles away from Crossing, but once they pass the west gate people see them as a threat. Ask the day to day dirt farmer about it, and they might always be totally terrified no matter how far away (or close) they are. But they're also not really capable of dealing with them.
>>Still, I would argue that the lore distinguishes between mundane threats (like vicious creatures) and the threats to existence as we know it that necromancy represents.
At the same time, how apathetic are heroes toward Sorcery? I know Necromancy has a scarier history as a subset of Sorcery, but non-Necromantic Sorcerous spells that can disrupt the universe in devastating ways shouldn't necessarily be seen as any less threatening than Sorcerous Necromancy. War Mages opening rifts to elemental planes, Moon Mages ripping holes in time and space, etc etc etc... a lot of magic does get written off as okay despite how many people should in all justification find that stuff just as terrifying. That's not me saying that viewpoint is bad, but it's clear that heroes people have already become comfortable with all general magic, guilds are kinda okay with some sorcery, despite society not, so on.
Granted, a lot of it can also be boiled down to just player laziness toward caring about society dynamics. I just prefer the notion that people just tend to get used to things until they become too threatening, sorta like how the Immortals work.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
I agree completely, but at the same time I think that a lot of the hatred of Necromancy in society is entirely fear driven. Heroes kinda get over being scared a lot faster than the unwashed masses.
Not to say that they'll ever become tolerant of Necromancers as a whole, but I think they as a whole are a bit more educated and it would be rather atypical for them to always be fanatically afraid of Necromancers.
Looking at it in a more esoteric light: a lot of the major bad things about Necromancy stem from the general effects of [capital-S] Sorcery. Society still shuns Sorcery, but some guilds have Sorcery hidden in their own closets. So, guilds are okay with Sorcery, at least as an unspoken thing that goes on in their guild.
>>Let me give a quick scenario of how it goes sometimes... and yes, it does tend to go like this. It's pretty Lol.
Oh, I agree, a lot of the dynamics are... bizarre. At the same time, I can see how many world-traveled heroes of the realm eventually stop having the same panicked response to Necromancers that general society does. Some might be more indoctrinated against it (ie: Paladins and Clerics) but even then are Clerics and Paladins as a whole so fanatically focused on the threat of Necromancy that they dedicate their lives to only doing that?
I think a lot of heroes will eventually become desensitized to Necromancy as it becomes more publicly pervasive, just because they'll get bigger and stronger and in turn see them as less of a personal threat. Bob the dirt farmer will remain terrified, because all his dirt shoveling skills in the world won't really stop a guy who can conjure up acid bolts.
>>Typically, as soon as an invasion is noticed, people mobilize to stop it.
I'd chalk it up as a fun thing for players to do more than an explicitly IC response, but at the same time if I had to look at it in an IC lens when something abnormal takes place people tend to respond more than rote day to day activity. It's not like ogres and goblins are miles away from Crossing, but once they pass the west gate people see them as a threat. Ask the day to day dirt farmer about it, and they might always be totally terrified no matter how far away (or close) they are. But they're also not really capable of dealing with them.
>>Still, I would argue that the lore distinguishes between mundane threats (like vicious creatures) and the threats to existence as we know it that necromancy represents.
At the same time, how apathetic are heroes toward Sorcery? I know Necromancy has a scarier history as a subset of Sorcery, but non-Necromantic Sorcerous spells that can disrupt the universe in devastating ways shouldn't necessarily be seen as any less threatening than Sorcerous Necromancy. War Mages opening rifts to elemental planes, Moon Mages ripping holes in time and space, etc etc etc... a lot of magic does get written off as okay despite how many people should in all justification find that stuff just as terrifying. That's not me saying that viewpoint is bad, but it's clear that heroes people have already become comfortable with all general magic, guilds are kinda okay with some sorcery, despite society not, so on.
Granted, a lot of it can also be boiled down to just player laziness toward caring about society dynamics. I just prefer the notion that people just tend to get used to things until they become too threatening, sorta like how the Immortals work.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
I think that part of the inherant apathy comes from folks just not wanting to lose a fight. If an individual desides to take on a nercomancer, he/she is basically commiting themselves to a 3v1 fight.(Necro/zombie/construct). So being anti necromancy should be a social thing where people join together to even the odds. The necromancer I have had the most interaction with(Zerreck and Sepharus) know where the line is and don't go all murder everyone and make for an enjoyable RP scenario(minus me having to replenish favors after). I think necromancy, as it is designed by the IG storyline, should basically be a team building thing. You are for or against it. Team good guy vs Team Bad guy. I play my char to be unpredictable(since I am quite boring IRL) in all things except his hatred of necromancy. So while I can understand the apathy to some degree, fence sitting isn't something I look at as realistic. Saying "I really hate necromancy, but don't want to get involved" is basically getting involved on the side of team bad guy. You are actively deciding to do something that helps the bad guy by not helping the good guys. PC's are basically the elite of the world and should IMO take a side.
Ev
Hmmm. My first instinct is to kill anyone openly supporting necromancers, esp. in town.
But then I guess you have to do the consent dance and they probably won't end up fighting you.
It seems like the current fix to this is for GMs to manually give SO/Purges. Which isn't much of a solution at all.
This is a great discussion that should have been had a year ago tbh. I play my character less and less the way I had intended him to end up. Most of that is my fault, the rest I can blame on this very topic. The problem I see is that the Necromancer guild is geared "very heavy" to PvP. With most of the players in game being "guarded/closed" it doesn't leave a whole lot for the RP to really be followed. What I mean by that is: Its pretty boring only interacting with the same people over and over with no real story/plot to run with, most of the RP being Player driven with little or no interaction or follow up. I took my character from a zealot necromancer slayer to joining a notorious crime/necromancy friendly family. There has been some RP to come from it, but it's mostly just put a lot of people who knew my character before in some ackward situations. I don't know, when it stops being fun you sort of just shut down and .script and wait for something interesting to happen. just my 2 cents on it.
'Not in my Backyard'
So you wanna be a Necromancer huh? Fine, go do it somewhere else. Wanna come sit at a meeting, fine. Feel like checkin out a new merchant or hang out at an alterer, okay have a blast. Talk on the gweths, grandstand at public places and do what you want everywhere else. You bring a mudman or a zombie into 'my backyard' and we're gunna have words and probably end up killin eachother. Its less apathy and more 'If you bring it, I'll play too and get you some of the interaction you were looking for'. Also it makes it easier to not have to 'Crusade' against Necromancy (something that I dont really think either side likes doing, I know I dont) and still have a decent IC response when someone shows up to cause a ruckus.
At least thats Osus' stance on things. Your mileage may vary.
-O
Closing in on 100th circle necro and I'm still just as paranoid as Day 1 that I'll be outed. Had one really great RP session with a few folks that caught me in black leucros, but other than that, I avoid people, town, and gwething. I haven't tested all of my necro spells yet because I still have favors. Haven't cast SRE or created a zombie, but it's coming soon. I'm looking forward to people who take a strong anti necro stance if there are any still out there.
For those who are worried that they may lose a fight, so what? I will say that I'm sorely disappointed in my nearly 100th circle necro combat abilities. A 50th circle barbarian or warmage would probably smoke me. Anyway, I hope I didn't create a necro in vain, but instead have the opportunity to get into some RP when I'm ready to come out of the closet... won't be long now.
________________________________________________________________
"EMPATHS RULE ELANTHIA -- ALL SHALL LOVE US AND DESPAAAAAIR" ~GM Melete
For those who are worried that they may lose a fight, so what? I will say that I'm sorely disappointed in my nearly 100th circle necro combat abilities. A 50th circle barbarian or warmage would probably smoke me. Anyway, I hope I didn't create a necro in vain, but instead have the opportunity to get into some RP when I'm ready to come out of the closet... won't be long now.
________________________________________________________________
"EMPATHS RULE ELANTHIA -- ALL SHALL LOVE US AND DESPAAAAAIR" ~GM Melete
I'm probably one of the characters that would fall into the "apathetic when faced with a Necromancer" category. This stems from a few different reasons...
Firstly, I would describe my character as a chaotic neutral. Sometimes it's just more fun to watch a Necromancer wreak havoc and mayhem. Other times, maybe I'll kill it just to watch it bleed. Sometimes my character carries personal vendettas, so he may be apathetic towards a particular person getting killed or perhaps will be more prone to attack a certain Necromancer based on previous interactions. Or maybe it's raining and he's cold and sour and won't budge for anything beyond just glaring and scowling at everyone and everything. Heroes have bad days too...
Beyond that, as a player, I've found that I tend to stay out of Necromancer interactions more and more simply because of the group-beatings that most tend to receive already. It's pretty rare to see a group of Necromancers running around spawning zombies and mud men together, but it's certainly not unheard of for the lynch mobs hunting these Necros to be made of 5 players or more. 5 on 1 is pretty rough odds for the Necro, and though they're supposed to be in "hard mode" and not have an easy go at things, I just don't see the point in piling on just for the sake of RP. That player's got his or her hands full already, at that point I'm more prone to root for the underdog.
I remember when Einmyria and the island crew were hosting invasions of Therengia on the regular, which I thought was great, but apparently was not a sentiment felt by all. That was a case where both sides had numbers, put up some pretty good fights, but eventually it was decided that team bad guy was laying it on too thick and began facing instant deportations when they'd stage an attack. This further soured my motivation to engage in Necromancer RP, because what's the point when, regardless of characters' power or numbers, the good guys are always gonna win? I know Vinjince was a bit distressed over the situation, but personally I don't mind the idea of a corrupt Elanthia where the good guys have become the minority and find themselves ostracized, shunned, and labeled as fanatics at times. I like the idea of an Elanthia that evolves and changes based upon players' actions and sentiments, not just the storylines that the GM's fix in place.
All that aside, I agree that it's a tough situation to address as a whole. Some tweaks to the social outrage system might be a good place to start, but I'm not sure how much can be done to completely overhaul the RP (or lack thereof) of other players, which is what I feel is the root of this discussion.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
Firstly, I would describe my character as a chaotic neutral. Sometimes it's just more fun to watch a Necromancer wreak havoc and mayhem. Other times, maybe I'll kill it just to watch it bleed. Sometimes my character carries personal vendettas, so he may be apathetic towards a particular person getting killed or perhaps will be more prone to attack a certain Necromancer based on previous interactions. Or maybe it's raining and he's cold and sour and won't budge for anything beyond just glaring and scowling at everyone and everything. Heroes have bad days too...
Beyond that, as a player, I've found that I tend to stay out of Necromancer interactions more and more simply because of the group-beatings that most tend to receive already. It's pretty rare to see a group of Necromancers running around spawning zombies and mud men together, but it's certainly not unheard of for the lynch mobs hunting these Necros to be made of 5 players or more. 5 on 1 is pretty rough odds for the Necro, and though they're supposed to be in "hard mode" and not have an easy go at things, I just don't see the point in piling on just for the sake of RP. That player's got his or her hands full already, at that point I'm more prone to root for the underdog.
I remember when Einmyria and the island crew were hosting invasions of Therengia on the regular, which I thought was great, but apparently was not a sentiment felt by all. That was a case where both sides had numbers, put up some pretty good fights, but eventually it was decided that team bad guy was laying it on too thick and began facing instant deportations when they'd stage an attack. This further soured my motivation to engage in Necromancer RP, because what's the point when, regardless of characters' power or numbers, the good guys are always gonna win? I know Vinjince was a bit distressed over the situation, but personally I don't mind the idea of a corrupt Elanthia where the good guys have become the minority and find themselves ostracized, shunned, and labeled as fanatics at times. I like the idea of an Elanthia that evolves and changes based upon players' actions and sentiments, not just the storylines that the GM's fix in place.
All that aside, I agree that it's a tough situation to address as a whole. Some tweaks to the social outrage system might be a good place to start, but I'm not sure how much can be done to completely overhaul the RP (or lack thereof) of other players, which is what I feel is the root of this discussion.
>befriend clear all
You are now friendless.
I really like this discussion but noticed one thing so far - most of the people posting here are not the ones "on the fence" about Necromancers. I think it really needs to be an all or nothing thing, you either support them (evil!) or you don't.
Having people say and act like Vinjince posted to me is just nuts, and I am sad that more people don't take the opportunity to at least have a strong opinion either way. My Bard hates necromancers (as most sane Bards should) and even though he is not high enough circle to normally take them on, I would at least RP his character in such a way to show how opposed I am to them in my backyard (as Osus put so well). If I die for that, then so be it...my only problem is dying repeatedly for something like that.
My Necromancer is still pretty small but I am beyond paranoid about his training and where he goes. I probably would scoff at anyone that supported my Work anyway, unless they were as committed to the cause as I was. These huggy-touchy-feely people would sicken him.
Having people say and act like Vinjince posted to me is just nuts, and I am sad that more people don't take the opportunity to at least have a strong opinion either way. My Bard hates necromancers (as most sane Bards should) and even though he is not high enough circle to normally take them on, I would at least RP his character in such a way to show how opposed I am to them in my backyard (as Osus put so well). If I die for that, then so be it...my only problem is dying repeatedly for something like that.
My Necromancer is still pretty small but I am beyond paranoid about his training and where he goes. I probably would scoff at anyone that supported my Work anyway, unless they were as committed to the cause as I was. These huggy-touchy-feely people would sicken him.
<<In my world if a Necromancer has an Army it's serious bzns, if it's him and three freinds, whatever, he's like any other guy and three bad friends.>>
In game canon wise, it really wasn't the army of undead that was going to destroy all of reality. It was the necromancer itself.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
In game canon wise, it really wasn't the army of undead that was going to destroy all of reality. It was the necromancer itself.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
<<I remember when Einmyria and the island crew were hosting invasions of Therengia on the regular, which I thought was great, but apparently was not a sentiment felt by all.
The trouble here was that she and the island crew far outclassed the Therengian PC's and it gets old getting beat down in every encounter. Likewise when a high level necro parks a zombie someplace public that no one except the highest circle characters can even hope to touch, I can see why everyone just stands around and says 'Oh look, a zombie. Not worth wasting favors, so we'll just ignore it.'
The overall problem here, I think, is that so many of the very highest circle characters want to fight somebody for little or no cause so gravitate to team bad guy, and can just steamroll most of the characters that play good guys, so you are wrong in thinking bad guys never win. They usually do until they get deported. With Necros it is much the same frustration, no matter how much you kill or conflict with them, if they don't want to go, they won't. We can never be rid of them so the anti-necro RP becomes hollow at times.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
The trouble here was that she and the island crew far outclassed the Therengian PC's and it gets old getting beat down in every encounter. Likewise when a high level necro parks a zombie someplace public that no one except the highest circle characters can even hope to touch, I can see why everyone just stands around and says 'Oh look, a zombie. Not worth wasting favors, so we'll just ignore it.'
The overall problem here, I think, is that so many of the very highest circle characters want to fight somebody for little or no cause so gravitate to team bad guy, and can just steamroll most of the characters that play good guys, so you are wrong in thinking bad guys never win. They usually do until they get deported. With Necros it is much the same frustration, no matter how much you kill or conflict with them, if they don't want to go, they won't. We can never be rid of them so the anti-necro RP becomes hollow at times.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
