tl;dr version: I think game mechanics should be fleshed out with IC lore that addresses and explains them, and not necessarily always dodged or hand-waved.

I'm just going to toss some things out here that I've been thinking about for a while in a hope to get some other player's (and hopefully some GM) takes on them.

Much of this is driven by the fact that I prefer it when the mechanics and the setting of a game maintain cohesion and acknowledge one another. An example of this would be the natural gravitation of gathering spots to organize in locations with favorable mana conditions for multiple guilds, particularly holy and life.

So, with that in mind...

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TDPs

I know what TDPs do, but what isn't so clear is just what TDPs are. It's fine and dandy that characters receive TDPs based on guild circle promotions and for their dedication to training. The real questions come down to:

Who issues/grants TDPs?
On the surface it would seem fairly easy to say they're granted by the recognized guilds to their members, in recognition for their dedication to excellence, or something along those lines. This doesn't explain the initial 600 TDPs one gets out of the Character Manager, however, nor the TDPs that Commoners are currently (and perhaps will continue to be) able to earn. The question of Necromancer TDP gain and spending is also an elephant in this particular room.

How are they tracked?
I'm fine with just handwaving and saying "they just are," on this one, but it's still a valid question.

Why are the training facilities for TDPs organized the way they are?
As far as I'm aware each province has just one place to train any particular stat. Some of these places make sense; dedicated academies of agility and collegiums of reflexology and such. Others not so much. That aspect aside, are these places specifically established or accredited by any particular authority? Are they simply places that the Adventurer Class of society has learned to utilize to these particular purposes?

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Skills and (in particular) Ranks

This has been hashed out a lot over the years, but I'm not afraid to bring it back up yet again. I'm happy that we have an EXP RP option, but it still doesn't answer some of the obvious questions of the setting.

How do Guildleaders discern individual skills down to the particular rank?
This one, to me, is the biggest argument in favor of the IC-ification of the rank system. Even EXP RP alludes to it with some of the levels containing XXth degree <whatever>, etc. This is really more of a statement than a question on my part, I'll admit. I find things like discussing skills down to the rank a perfectly IC exercise, which I have avoided doing for years now, because I know there are a lot of people who do not. I would just like to challenge that aversion.

To me, it seems the discussion of having 512 ranks of Brawling is the same as a character in Dragon Ball talking about having a power level over 9000. The setting supports it, it's not OOC. /rant

Furthermore, though I think it's something that should stay well down the priority lists, I'd kind of like to see commands like TELLEXP and TELLSTAT be reflected in some IC manner. TELLEXP is basically the same thing our characters apparently do when they go ask their Guildleader to assess their readiness for a circle promotion.

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Time

Going to try to keep this brief because it's a dead horse and I know it, but I'm going to whip it quickly nonetheless.

Would it really hurt to just sync Elanthian time with real time and just allow characters to acknowledge that there are 3.6 (or whatever it is) day/night cycles in a day, that an hour is an hour, etc.?

I'm not sure which is more jarring to me when I'm talking to people really; the people who try to adhere to Elanthian time but then don't know how to properly utilize the grammar of Gamgweth (and even those who can, can't honestly tell you exactly what Elanthian day/time something in the moderately distant future will happen, through no fault of their own), or the folks who try to make it easier on everybody, but who feel obligated to use terms like "Elven Time," or "By the Eastern Bells," etc.

I respect both groups of people, I understand where they're coming from, I just think the whole Elanthian time thing needs to be retconned out and a real-world time analogue put in its place.

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The Adventurer Class

This is one of the most interesting thing about the setting to me, but it's also something that seems to go largely unacknowledged. While our characters are a distinct minority, they do constitute a disproportionately powerful Adventuring Class within society. Though it's very rare to ever see a character, whether PC or NPC acknowledge that fact openly. I'm not sure when the last time I saw it happen was, other than my own character's occasional references.

Members of this Adventuring Class of society are essentially Bourgeoisie with super powers. They occupy the positions within the provincial royal courts without being royal themselves, etc. Judging by most character backstories, they have risen from the lesser social classes or seem to be born into adventuring families. The Immortals themselves acknowledge adventurers as something special and apart from the rest of the schlubs, and grant them their favor. Many of the abilities possessed and taken for granted by the Adventuring Class strike terror into the hearts of the casual passer-by, not to mention their treatment of death as a minor inconvenience.

All of the above is why it sort of confuses me that there is no specific lore surrounding the existence of this particular social class, and in discussions it never quite gets brought up. Was there ever a "rise of the Adventurer Class?" Or has it simply always been that way from the beginning of the world? It makes for an interesting paradigm within which some people truly are discernibly superior to others, not on the basis of some claimed divine right, but because by simple empirical fact they just are.

A pop-culture example of what I mean can be found in the graphic novel Watchmen, or the film based on it. The writers essentially took the real world and then inserted the concept of the "Costumed Hero," and extrapolated a possible alternate history based around their existence. Frankly, as cool as the story itself is, that aspect was probably the most fascinating part of it all, to me. The way societies would react to such people is really something that I think could be explored in much more detail by everybody involved, players and GMs alike.

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Gathering Spots

I hadn't even thought about this one until I started this post, but after writing the last section it sort of clicked for me.

Adventurers gather at particular spots, driven by various factors. What is surprising to me, is that so many of these spots remain relatively undeveloped. I've seen plenty of people petition the GMs OOC to put a bin here or a bucket there, because that's where everybody hangs out. But why do no characters ever seem to petition the rulers of the various provinces to provide better amenities for them at the places they choose to congregate?

Using Riverhaven for an example; if a good deal of the members of the most powerful, wealthy non-noble social class in a realistic setting chose to more or less live outside of the city Dry Goods Store, I don't think it would be long before the store itself would be forced to relocate. The area would likely be transformed into (at least) some sort of more amenable plaza, rather than the open street it is currently.

It's unfortunate that petitioning nobles is antithetical to my character's personal convictions, because I think it would be a lot of fun to RP a quest to establish particular rights for, or at least concessions toward the Adventurer Class.

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Alright, well that was all a whole lot more than I intended to post when I started writing this, but if you've read this far, thanks. Also, apologies for the parts where I digressed into rant territory.

Hopefully some of it will give people something to think about next time we're all going about the mechanical aspects of the game, or trying to figure out just why it is that we're not openly acknowledging them.

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Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus

>All of the above is why it sort of confuses me that there is no specific lore surrounding the existence of this particular social class, and in discussions it never quite gets brought up.

It's like asking why there's no specific lore about rich people.

In my opinion, there not a class so much as a group people who have risen to the top of the heap because everyone else either doesn't try, or died.

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"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh

Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares

>>TDPs.

They're called XP points in other games, in terms of acquisition. It's just a generic way to track that you've been actively training over time, which naturally results in stat increases (for some reason). There is really nothing about the system that's IC.

Play "My Pet Protector" on Kongregate sometime. I can't figure out how to explain why you should, but it's relevant and you'll see why pretty fast.

Honestly, I prefer the D&D system of rolling at character creation and never getting a systematic way to tweak it.

>>Furthermore, though I think it's something that should stay well down the priority lists, I'd kind of like to see commands like TELLEXP and TELLSTAT be reflected in some IC manner. TELLEXP is basically the same thing our characters apparently do when they go ask their Guildleader to assess their readiness for a circle promotion.

Interesting.

Agree. Surprised I agree.

Disturbed.

>>I just think the whole Elanthian time thing needs to be retconned out and a real-world time analogue put in its place.

On the fence about this. I just wrote out an argument against and an argument for in my head and meh.

>>The Adventurer Class

That needs a separate post. Which I will write after I step away from the computer for a bit.

>> Gathering Spots
>>I understand it's a lot of work, so I would love to see GMs dedicated to the task of sprucing up the "place where the cool kids are" de jour. I know it changes and so should the amenities and conditions available at said spots. (Just not at the expense of other stuff; yes I both want my cake and I want to eat it)

Hmmm.....

http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/03/10/some-zone-design-lessons/

It would be worth it to start logging hits in rooms for dialogue, and then mark traffic spikes as gathering points. Like.... 1000+ hits of speech or random emotes per day for over a month, automatically spawn a bucket there or something. <shrugs>

So, to start, I need to disagree with Caraamon, because that's the best way to start anything.

>>It's like asking why there's no specific lore about rich people.

Honestly, there ought to be specific lore for this, too. Especially since we have a Trader guild with an adventurer contingent that's not necessarily connected with Houses Chelochi, Moglin, Odalva, et. al. It's merely not as important because not every PC is rich or came from a rich background.

>> While our characters are a distinct minority, they do constitute a disproportionately powerful Adventuring Class within society.

But there isn't an Adventuring Class. There is a motley group of people loosely understood to be adventurers, but there isn't a specific set of markers (as you have for rich people: their wealth) that set them apart. It's true that all adventurers have favors, for instance, but so do a fair number of non-adventurers.

>>Members of this Adventuring Class of society are essentially Bourgeoisie with super powers.

They also have an interesting set of restrictions: they are entirely beholden to a guild of practitioners and their representative authorities, and their achievements are quantified as "circles" as a general standard inside these institutions.

Their powers and abilities are extremely well-documented, at least internally in the research arm of their institutions, and thus also extraordinarily reliable. It is extremely rare to find adventurers conducting significant research or experimentation.

>>Was there ever a "rise of the Adventurer Class?"

Unlikely. The nature of the adventurer is that she defies social order by adventuring. Major cities sponsor these individuals with an early loan, but beyond this, their role is to sever ties with their home communities and embrace a life punctuated by danger. They might eventually return to re-establish these ties, or root themselves somewhere else, but the monomythical call to adventure does happen for all of them for however brief a time.

There is a worthwhile opportunity for someone to create a fiction about the economic incentive Crossing and Riverhaven had to fund these unpromising wanderers.

Also, a story or two about early discoveries on gaining favors would be worth writing.

And lastly, it'd be interesting for stories to be written where adventurers spend time interacting with the faceless masses. A paladin spending time drilling the provincial military or a cleric ministering to a congregation. That latter has interesting implications for resurrection: since we can't resurrect the favorless, that probably includes parishoners.

There are two options when you start playing with a fantasy setting that follows the general D&D progression logic of lone adventurers who by merit and hard work alone can virtually (or even actually) rise to godhood.

1) You depict what is essentially an alien society to account for the overwhelming influence of medieval superheros.

2) You depict a normal (or a Hollywood normal, anyway) medieval society, where the influence of these people have been implicitly mitigated on the large scale.

For better or worse, the original designers of DragonRealms chose #2.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>If Simutronics changed nothing else, making the time of day consistent with Eastern Time would make things a lot easier for everyone.

Err. This may go a step too far, unless you're also willing to throw out the (useful) 4:1 time scale.

~ Pansophist Kougen

Knowledge is not power. Power is a trinket, a mere bauble, a distraction. Knowledge is an end unto itself.

>>Considering that no one seems to know how to say when an event will take place without talking about Elven towers, I'm not sure how useful that scale is.

Reducing our time compression creates some practical concerns for Moon Mages (and everyone else, if we reach the point of making the seasons and day/night cycle more meaningful than they currently are).

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

<<while some toss it on its head by suspending disbelief to the idea that even if adventurers are the best there is at what they do, the local guardsman is, without a doubt, better at what they do. That's not exactly as admirable.>>

I'll happily and continually disagree with this statement as written.

GM Jaedren

>>For GMs it's a losing battle, since they can't adequately explain why nobles remain nobles (and social constructs remain intact) in the face of people with the ability to wipe out their entire army in minutes. Some address the issue head-on, which is admirable, while some toss it on its head by suspending disbelief to the idea that even if adventurers are the best there is at what they do, the local guardsman is, without a doubt, better at what they do.

That's as much a problem with setting as it is with the systems being built to prop up player ego more than they're built to enforce setting consistency. Culturally, players have a presumption that they should be the best at what they do... despite the fact that they don't actually do anything, because actually having an effect on the game world means that skills are less trainable and the game is thus less playable.

Players are like voters. They go to the polling station once a year, mark up a ballot, drop it in and believe they're helping govern their society when all they're doing is little more than roll call in grade school.

<<while some toss it on its head by suspending disbelief to the idea that even if adventurers are the best there is at what they do, the local guardsman is, without a doubt, better at what they do. That's not exactly as admirable.>>

>I'll happily and continually disagree with this statement as written.

Which part?

~ Pansophist Kougen

You search the Dragon Priest assassin.
The assassin was carrying some knee-high snakeskin boots and a medium red beryl!

<<Which part?>>

The part that states that it is somehow inferior game design/manipulation to not allow 'adventurers' free reign over the game world sans appropriate consequences.

Because really, that's what it boils down to. Sure, the adventurers can wipe out an army in the blink of an eye... but that's because it's a game full of paying customers. Were I to truly make a realistic response, the local leaders would simply annihilate any adventurer that posed even a slight potential threat to their seat of power. All well before they became anything resembling the powerhouses we allow them to currently.


GM Jaedren

>Were I to truly make a realistic response, the local leaders would simply annihilate any adventurer that posed even a slight potential threat to their seat of power. All well before they became anything resembling the powerhouses we allow them to currently.

Should have capped those ranks sooner!

Seriously though, my perception has always been that the rest of the world seems to get stronger along with us anyway. See: Vorasus' infinite army of 150th-circle-killing Zealots. And he's small beans compared to the real power centers of Elanthia. Supposedly our Guild Leaders have been 200th+ circle equivalents for over a decade already, and Guilds:Provinces::City Councils:Washington.

It's more like we're only seeing the surface because the story seldom requires more.

~ Pansophist Kougen

You search the Dragon Priest assassin.
The assassin was carrying some knee-high snakeskin boots and a medium red beryl!

>>Lunar Magic doesn't let you get around eating, drinking, or shivering in the cold.

::teleport remote beach/summon shadowcoconut::

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"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER

I think you forgot comboing burn and shadowling to make fire.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

>>::teleport remote beach/summon shadowcoconut::

Fleeing to a luxurous tropical beach is only a solution to being a starving, penniless outcast in such hyper-stylized fiction that the inital argument loses any meaning.

If you want to argue that one route is more realistic than another, then you need to embrace a more historic approach to the setting along with it: life is cruel, unfair, and fatal to anyone who is abandoned by their community.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>>Fleeing to a luxurous tropical beach is only a solution to being a starving, penniless outcast in such hyper-stylized fiction that the inital argument loses any meaning.

I was more joking/hyperbolic than even remotely serious in my response.

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"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER

I sometimes wonder what kind of glorious mess we'd get if we added a "Personal Responsibility" RP toggle where a PC acknowledges they're OK with getting permakilled / imprisoned for years at a time / etc. by the State if they step out of line, in exchange for being considered for positions of significance in the setting.

It'd be a disaster of unrivaled scope, but a potentially fun one to watch.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

To me, the only thing that tends to be troublesome with many kinds of "more serious" IG punishments is figuring out how to manage the "this should be miserable for the character but an enjoyable experience for the user" type of deal.

Being locked in jail? Totally valid RP situation.
Player essentially being banished to the policy-no-no lockout room, in terms of what that player can then do with that character? Kinda not fun.

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"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER

What was it...SimuCon 2007 that we discussed real consequences for actions against the "government"? I think some of those things were put in place, not sure if that is an on-going policy however.

Not sure how it would play out, as most people would be very reluctant to have any real consequences for their IG roleplay.

Madigan

you could make a prison yard hunting area. Have some of the prisoners be merchants selling smuggled goods. Have some way to contact your minions on the outside to keep your machinations rolling. There are plenty of directions you could go to have the government think you're dealt with but still allow the player fun options. Then of course you have all the locked up people orchestrate a breakout. A mini reverse invasion.