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>If I can learn hiding and stalking easily both of which are near 600 why couldn't I learn backstab since it's also in the survival skill set?
Well I can understand why that would be a question but I don't have a good answer for you except to say that's the way it is.
Just about all critters seem to teach a much wider range of stealth than they do weapons. And for all intents and purposes, backstab is a weapon skill.
Headsplitters still teach hiding well past 1000 ranks, but it'd take all day to mindlock 800+ backstab there (or most other weapons), no matter what technique is used.
I've always said, your backstabbing hunting level should be a different (higher) level than your "dance with 4 critters all day" level.
Sitting at about 760 hiding 730 stalk and 460 backstab... me is my primary bs weapon and its just behind bs, at 450. It hasn't been one of my primary reqs since 60th circle (at which point bs was my highest stealth). I believe there was a tweak done then and it became more of a hassle than it was worth to train.
I'm not complaining really, but even today when I am training and have to decide whether or not I feel like waiting another 30 or so minutes to lock backstabbing or just move on to doing something else. To me the effort put in vs what I gain simply isn't worth it, which is sad to say since its supposed to be one of our class defining skills.
I will continue to train backstab, and will eventually focus on it if its so far behind that I can't hit the at level critter, but it truly feels like little more than a tdp wagon like vocals to me than a skill I NEED to feel like I'm a thief... seems like (most) others are similarly disparaged with the skill, which regardless of a spreadsheet indicates some sort of flaw in design.
I'm not complaining really, but even today when I am training and have to decide whether or not I feel like waiting another 30 or so minutes to lock backstabbing or just move on to doing something else. To me the effort put in vs what I gain simply isn't worth it, which is sad to say since its supposed to be one of our class defining skills.
I will continue to train backstab, and will eventually focus on it if its so far behind that I can't hit the at level critter, but it truly feels like little more than a tdp wagon like vocals to me than a skill I NEED to feel like I'm a thief... seems like (most) others are similarly disparaged with the skill, which regardless of a spreadsheet indicates some sort of flaw in design.
>>seems like (most) others are similarly disparaged with the skill, which regardless of a spreadsheet indicates some sort of flaw in design.
Actually, no. The complainers just believe that whatever they personally are bad at figuring out how to train is inherently flawed and in need of fixing. They don't want to hear that BS exp is probably about how it ought to be, and that for more efficient learning they need to try a different technique that they are not currently using. When I present this information on how to effectively train BS, I am told 'You're making that up' or 'That's not how it should be.'
So in closing, I could tell you to move up to a harder critter. I could tell you to switch to LE. I could tell you that feinting at eyes is laughably ineffective compared to the BACKSTAB verb, or that I mindlock BS in 10 minutes at 850 ranks. But I won't, because we'll all be much happier screaming that the system is broken, right?
Actually, no. The complainers just believe that whatever they personally are bad at figuring out how to train is inherently flawed and in need of fixing. They don't want to hear that BS exp is probably about how it ought to be, and that for more efficient learning they need to try a different technique that they are not currently using. When I present this information on how to effectively train BS, I am told 'You're making that up' or 'That's not how it should be.'
So in closing, I could tell you to move up to a harder critter. I could tell you to switch to LE. I could tell you that feinting at eyes is laughably ineffective compared to the BACKSTAB verb, or that I mindlock BS in 10 minutes at 850 ranks. But I won't, because we'll all be much happier screaming that the system is broken, right?
This has always been one of the best thief topics IMHO. Lots of rancor but also lots of good info.
JR, it's been so long since I read over previous posts about this that I reviewed everything you've said in this folder. Actually it looks like we agree on quite a bit. We both had a love affair with Lyras's undead, for example. I wish every critter swarmed like those.
From what I can tell, you and I prefer the same method of using the backstab verb on swarming bipeds. That's all I've ever really done.
We both use low-damaging weapons to get in more BS attempts per minute so we lose less time on skinning, looting, hunting, etc. To that end, here's been my trusty companion for a long time now:
>You tap a peach knife inside your thigh quiver.
My weighted tyrium telek is really just a conversation piece at this point. Only if I ever really need to one-punch something with BS, then my telek is my goto superweapon.
So it sounds to me like we've used the same techniques. The only real difference between us, as far as I can tell, is this post:
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Thieves/All%20About%20Backstabbing/view/1134
Those numbers suggest you're in DP. Every time I've been in there, they swarm about like Lyras's undead. It's great. I feel like a june bug at a duck pond. I can see where they're working your skills so well.
Kax's only problem is I want to raise his box skills just a bit higher before I go to DP full-time. So that means head-splitters for now, which means he hardly learns much stealth at all, for now. But when I return to DP I'll be expecting to get the good results you're talking about with BS. 10 minutes to lock BS? Sign me up.
Does all this sound like I'm on the right track here? Or am I overlooking something?
R.I.P. Lyras's undead. We shall remember you and your great BS training. Sleep well.
Kaxis
>You tap a hooded huckleberry hound-pelt cloak that you are wearing.
JR, it's been so long since I read over previous posts about this that I reviewed everything you've said in this folder. Actually it looks like we agree on quite a bit. We both had a love affair with Lyras's undead, for example. I wish every critter swarmed like those.
From what I can tell, you and I prefer the same method of using the backstab verb on swarming bipeds. That's all I've ever really done.
We both use low-damaging weapons to get in more BS attempts per minute so we lose less time on skinning, looting, hunting, etc. To that end, here's been my trusty companion for a long time now:
>You tap a peach knife inside your thigh quiver.
My weighted tyrium telek is really just a conversation piece at this point. Only if I ever really need to one-punch something with BS, then my telek is my goto superweapon.
So it sounds to me like we've used the same techniques. The only real difference between us, as far as I can tell, is this post:
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Thieves/All%20About%20Backstabbing/view/1134
Those numbers suggest you're in DP. Every time I've been in there, they swarm about like Lyras's undead. It's great. I feel like a june bug at a duck pond. I can see where they're working your skills so well.
Kax's only problem is I want to raise his box skills just a bit higher before I go to DP full-time. So that means head-splitters for now, which means he hardly learns much stealth at all, for now. But when I return to DP I'll be expecting to get the good results you're talking about with BS. 10 minutes to lock BS? Sign me up.
Does all this sound like I'm on the right track here? Or am I overlooking something?
R.I.P. Lyras's undead. We shall remember you and your great BS training. Sleep well.
Kaxis
>You tap a hooded huckleberry hound-pelt cloak that you are wearing.
Yeah Kaxis, you and I are on the same page here. I also found the box difficulty to be the worst part of moving from headsplitters to DPs. To be honest, it was so bad I stayed in headsplitters much longer than was efficient for combat training, just to pump those box skills.
Now that I have no major problems with assassin boxes, I find I need to hunt intercessors to get the best learning, and their boxes are even harder... such is life.
>>My weighted tyrium telek is really just a conversation piece at this point.
So I can have it then?
Now that I have no major problems with assassin boxes, I find I need to hunt intercessors to get the best learning, and their boxes are even harder... such is life.
>>My weighted tyrium telek is really just a conversation piece at this point.
So I can have it then?
My issue continues to be that:
It is counter to reason and the basic combat and training methods of the entire rest of the game. Doing less to get more bits was a system model we were to get away from years ago.
Finding the hardest critter you can hide on and backstabbing with the weakest weapon you can find is not how backstabbing should be trained. I can't understand the view from anyone that it is acceptable to do so. Because it is the way to do it, doesn't mean it should be the way to do it.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
| use low-damaging weapons to get in more BS attempts per minute so we lose less time on skinning, looting, hunting, etc. To that end, here's been my trusty companion for a long time now: |
| >You tap a peach knife inside your thigh quiver. |
It is counter to reason and the basic combat and training methods of the entire rest of the game. Doing less to get more bits was a system model we were to get away from years ago.
Finding the hardest critter you can hide on and backstabbing with the weakest weapon you can find is not how backstabbing should be trained. I can't understand the view from anyone that it is acceptable to do so. Because it is the way to do it, doesn't mean it should be the way to do it.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
<<Finding the hardest critter you can hide on and backstabbing with the weakest weapon you can find is not how backstabbing should be trained. I can't understand the view from anyone that it is acceptable to do so. Because it is the way to do it, doesn't mean it should be the way to do it.>>
I couldn't agree with you more, Yamcer. The current model is not anywhere near optimal. All the annoying duct tape and baling wire bandaids we come up with to train it better are unacceptable. Overhunting is not a good solution either, especially when backstab is almost always lower than hiding and stalking. I've been consistent for years claiming that all three stealth skills: hiding, stalking, and backstabbing should just train equally well in the same situation without having to do anything clever to make it happen.
The most likely culprit is hiding/stalking contesting the perc from all critters in the room but backstab only contesting perc from the target. But whatever the issue, it needs to be fixed. And my money is on it being fixed in the stealth rewrite sometime after 3.0 is up and running. We know backstab power is getting nerfed, so at the same time let's put backstab experience on a better model.
That is if Zeyurn and Sithix are still with us. They might have posted lately, but I don't think I've seen a post from either of them in a while. Hope we don't have another Atrathien situation here.
Kaxis
>You tap a hooded huckleberry hound-pelt cloak that you are wearing.
I couldn't agree with you more, Yamcer. The current model is not anywhere near optimal. All the annoying duct tape and baling wire bandaids we come up with to train it better are unacceptable. Overhunting is not a good solution either, especially when backstab is almost always lower than hiding and stalking. I've been consistent for years claiming that all three stealth skills: hiding, stalking, and backstabbing should just train equally well in the same situation without having to do anything clever to make it happen.
The most likely culprit is hiding/stalking contesting the perc from all critters in the room but backstab only contesting perc from the target. But whatever the issue, it needs to be fixed. And my money is on it being fixed in the stealth rewrite sometime after 3.0 is up and running. We know backstab power is getting nerfed, so at the same time let's put backstab experience on a better model.
That is if Zeyurn and Sithix are still with us. They might have posted lately, but I don't think I've seen a post from either of them in a while. Hope we don't have another Atrathien situation here.
Kaxis
>You tap a hooded huckleberry hound-pelt cloak that you are wearing.
>> Because it is the way to do it, doesn't mean it should be the way to do it.
>>Yamcer
That could be said for every system in the game... actually, every facet of life. Let's deal with how things are.
A Thief's Backstab skill is like a Mage's TM. It's extremely powerful when used properly, it's the ONLY offensive skill in our primary skillset, and therefore of great importance. For training purposes, the strength of the hit doesn't matter nearly as much as the number of attacks we're able to practice.
The difference is, this skill depends on our other stealth abilities. If you have the backstab skill for a target, but not the hiding to remain undetected, obviously backstab is not an option. This is why backstab must always trail the other stealths. That makes sense, and is as it should be in my opinion, so I don't sympathize with the complaints about backstab ranks failing to keep pace with stealth.
Depending on how severely backstab is nerfed in 3.0, my opinion may change (a less desirable skill should not require as much effort to train, lest it become irrelevant). But considering its current eminent usefulness, I don't think it's too much to ask that our stealths be constantly ahead of backstab, and that we devote some thoughtfulness and creativity to training it.
I'll grant that Backstab experience ought logically to scale with the strength of the hit, like weapon experience. My point is that since there is ample opportunity to train it effectively nonetheless, it's not something I'm overly concerned about.
For the record, my current backstab ranks are exactly 80% of my hiding ranks. It'd be interesting to get ratios from you guys, to get a sense of what most Thieves are doing.
>>Yamcer
That could be said for every system in the game... actually, every facet of life. Let's deal with how things are.
A Thief's Backstab skill is like a Mage's TM. It's extremely powerful when used properly, it's the ONLY offensive skill in our primary skillset, and therefore of great importance. For training purposes, the strength of the hit doesn't matter nearly as much as the number of attacks we're able to practice.
The difference is, this skill depends on our other stealth abilities. If you have the backstab skill for a target, but not the hiding to remain undetected, obviously backstab is not an option. This is why backstab must always trail the other stealths. That makes sense, and is as it should be in my opinion, so I don't sympathize with the complaints about backstab ranks failing to keep pace with stealth.
Depending on how severely backstab is nerfed in 3.0, my opinion may change (a less desirable skill should not require as much effort to train, lest it become irrelevant). But considering its current eminent usefulness, I don't think it's too much to ask that our stealths be constantly ahead of backstab, and that we devote some thoughtfulness and creativity to training it.
I'll grant that Backstab experience ought logically to scale with the strength of the hit, like weapon experience. My point is that since there is ample opportunity to train it effectively nonetheless, it's not something I'm overly concerned about.
For the record, my current backstab ranks are exactly 80% of my hiding ranks. It'd be interesting to get ratios from you guys, to get a sense of what most Thieves are doing.
My Backstab/Hiding ratio is 87% which is remarkable considering I can't remember the last time I left a hunt with BS locked. For the longest time it's been about 34/34/15 or so. But one thing that hamstrings all my training, and has for years, is I pull back from whatever I'm doing to work mech when it gets close to zeroing out.
Just for kicks I looked up Slowdog's numbers from when he sold several years ago, and he was at 83%
<<For training purposes, the strength of the hit doesn't matter nearly as much as the number of attacks we're able to practice.>>
What we've always been told is the strength of the hit doesn't factor in at all. It's strictly a perception contest versus the target as opposed to hiding and stalking contesting all critters in the room. I think at the very least that should be put on a room contest like hiding and stalking.
Okay, obviously thieves will always hold different opinions about this topic. Nothing wrong with that. What I'd like to hear are the current GM thinking about what direction things will go in with stealth. But that will have to wait until 3.0 is done unfortunately.
What doesn't have to wait on 3.0 is Kaxis testing out DP to see how that 10 minute thing works!
Kaxis
>You tap a hooded huckleberry hound-pelt cloak that you are wearing.
Just for kicks I looked up Slowdog's numbers from when he sold several years ago, and he was at 83%
<<For training purposes, the strength of the hit doesn't matter nearly as much as the number of attacks we're able to practice.>>
What we've always been told is the strength of the hit doesn't factor in at all. It's strictly a perception contest versus the target as opposed to hiding and stalking contesting all critters in the room. I think at the very least that should be put on a room contest like hiding and stalking.
Okay, obviously thieves will always hold different opinions about this topic. Nothing wrong with that. What I'd like to hear are the current GM thinking about what direction things will go in with stealth. But that will have to wait until 3.0 is done unfortunately.
What doesn't have to wait on 3.0 is Kaxis testing out DP to see how that 10 minute thing works!
Kaxis
>You tap a hooded huckleberry hound-pelt cloak that you are wearing.
A tyrium sunblade is a light edged melee-ranged weapon.
The sunblade is well suited for backstabbing.
You are certain that it could do:
moderate puncture damage
fair slice damage
low impact damage
You are certain that the sunblade is excellently balanced and is inadequately suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the sunblade is nearly impervious to damage, and is in pristine condition. 17 stones
Backstab: 267 58.72% considering (6/34)
Evasion: 268 18.38% perusing (2/34)
Multi Opponent: 229 70.71% ruminating (8/34)
Parry Ability: 203 53.05% ruminating (8/34
I'm hunting adan'f, which have a skill range (elanthipedia) of 250-400
I can only train defenses with 2 at a time, and train BS by running around killing everything I can as quick as I can. I will probably move to DP soon though for BS and stealth while continueing to train defenses in adan'f till I can handle 4 at a time. I've always trained just a little ahead in BS in stealth. All I do is stalk and BS verb, plus some repetitive hiding/unhiding, and stalking creature after creature (as many as I can handle in the room) if my BS is moving faster than stealth. But everyone trains different. I'm S'kra, so a halfling would probably train different. just like they would probably prefer a weapon with more balance, but I tried the telek that was all balance and no suitability and it didn't work for me. Who likes my tago on steroids?
Since this thread has been picked up again i thought i might as well punch in my numbers for comparison.
<< For the record, my current backstab ranks are exactly 80% of my hiding ranks. It'd be interesting to get ratios from you guys, to get a sense of what most Thieves are doing.
For me it's 78% and it takes around 16 minutes to lock all 3 with backstabbing always trailing by using the feint method but that's probably only because I'm in the low end of my current hunting range - suppose that's the main reason for people getting different results. At least in my experience training backstabbing will slow down way before other the stealth skills do.
Also when talking about widening the gap between stealth and backstabbing I'm sure that the exp gained from stealing runs has something to with it as well.
Defol
<< For the record, my current backstab ranks are exactly 80% of my hiding ranks. It'd be interesting to get ratios from you guys, to get a sense of what most Thieves are doing.
For me it's 78% and it takes around 16 minutes to lock all 3 with backstabbing always trailing by using the feint method but that's probably only because I'm in the low end of my current hunting range - suppose that's the main reason for people getting different results. At least in my experience training backstabbing will slow down way before other the stealth skills do.
Also when talking about widening the gap between stealth and backstabbing I'm sure that the exp gained from stealing runs has something to with it as well.
Defol
>>Since this thread has been picked up again i thought i might as well punch in my numbers for comparison.
<< For the record, my current backstab ranks are exactly 80% of my hiding ranks. It'd be interesting to get ratios from you guys, to get a sense of what most Thieves are doing.
My backstab/hiding ratio is at 87%, after dipping shortly during a backtraining stint not long ago.
<< For the record, my current backstab ranks are exactly 80% of my hiding ranks. It'd be interesting to get ratios from you guys, to get a sense of what most Thieves are doing.
My backstab/hiding ratio is at 87%, after dipping shortly during a backtraining stint not long ago.
