>>Backstab exp definitely needs to be up-tweaked and if snipe checks backstab it should grant experience.

>>Disagree. Then again, I wouldn't have it check backstab either.

I agree with JMF90 that snipe shouldnt be checking backstab or teaching it, my vote is a new Ranger/Thief only skill.

>>Backstab exp is fine.

I disagree that its fine just based on two well known facts:

1)We can easily lock ME and LE before backstab locks, on high perception targets.

2)Ambushing neck, head ,eyes teaches more backstab than backstab.

Please bump up backstab.

I really hate to complain. Something has to be wrong with backstabbing though. It takes absolutely forever to train it. Even constantly using ambush clout I can literally lock 5 weapons before I get anywhere near locking backstab. Yes, I know with the new exp system locking is not the goal. The thing is backstabbing barely moves even when using the special attacks that teach backstabbing. Is there any way it can be tweaked to teach just a little better? Honestly this is the only skill I have problems with. All others are fairly easy to train if I really work at it.

Mujaki, Paladin of the people.

Perhaps it's hard to train for a reason, such as it being extremely OP. :/

I love it when somebody backstabs me, I get the message "but you are not surprised" and the blade still goes through my neck or through my face or whatever some of the other common backstab kills are.

I wish shield and/or parry at least factored into your defense when you get the "not surprised" messaging... would mean a good many less insta-deaths for me when I give a thief who robbed me and got caught consent by hitting said thief with PS or SICK or what-have-you.

Segmere
Shadow Priest, Baron's Own Militia

"The best cure for insomnia is to get a lot of sleep." ~WC Fields

>>I wish shield and/or parry at least factored into your defense when you get the "not surprised" messaging... would mean a good many less insta-deaths for me when I give a thief who robbed me and got caught consent by hitting said thief with PS or SICK or what-have-you.

Last I heard from Z about it is that the messaging for backstab is wacky. So you may in fact be getting surprised even though the message doesn't reflect it.

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Vinjince Rexem'lor

Without an approximation of your ranks or any mention of what you are hunting it can be challenging to give feedback. You might just be "underhunting" the specific skill...


<<I have no problem with it being tougher to train if they made another survival count towards circles.>>>

We can choose 8 survivals out of 10 possible skills for our general survival rank. The requirements for 7 and 8 are almost meaningless. You could easily choose to train hiding, stalking, evasion, climbing, stealing, perception, disarm and locks. Bam. I'm not even aware of a hard req for backstab, like you have for hiding, stalking, stealing, locks and disarm sooooo, what's the problem?

>I have the same problem...training backstab is ridiculously slow. I dont understand how locking weapons is so easy and locking backstabbing takes about 3 or 4 times as long.

Well, for starters, there's the skillset discrepancy. But I agree backstab exp is low via backstab, especially compared to ambush.

Backstab gets slower a ways before other stealths. Move up accordingly, ambush, and or use dirt.

<<I'm not even aware of a hard req for backstab, like you have for hiding, stalking, stealing, locks and disarm sooooo, what's the problem? >>

Sooooo the problem is the skill moving too slowly. People complain about it constantly, and for good reason. It's tough to move into upper mindstates.

>They must have fixed it then because 2 years ago when I still played my thief amush eye was the way to train on non-bipedal critters. It would teach way past the normal combat cap of a critter

There was a cap to the "cap boost" granted via ambushing harder body parts. Ambushing the eyes is a waste. Extra hard without the extra reward. You need to ambush an easier-to-hit location such as the head or neck.

From the original poster, if not his original post

<<<<I have no problem with it being tougher to train if they made another survival count towards circles. I would much rather go toe to toe with critters but I need to train pretty heavily in backstabbing if I wish to circle.>>>

My response... <<<I'm not even aware of a hard req for backstab, like you have for hiding, stalking, stealing, locks and disarm sooooo, what's the problem? >>>>

Sooo, for him, at least, what's the problem? If you do not want to train backstab, you do not have to. That goes for any of us.

>>Just taking a stab in the dark here, but I would guess that his problem is that he actually does want to train backstab. I could be completely off-base, however.

Training skills? Pshhh... Who does that anymore.

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TG, TG, GL, et al.
Also: Moo.

<<Sooo, for him, at least, what's the problem? If you do not want to train backstab, you do not have to. That goes for any of us.>>

I want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. If a skill has broken learning experience, just forget about it and go to the next skill? That's the solution?

So if evasion, for example, didn't train for squat would we just ignore it because it isn't a hard req and instead work escaping or stealing? What about perception? Learning it rankled people for years. We should have blown that off too? I don't think anyone needs it for circling, but it got GM attention because it needed fixing.

Let's expand this a little bit to make it easier. What if all the skills, non-req or otherwise, had the same experience problems? Just ignore them all? That's great.

Kaxis

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TIP OF THE DAY:
A heavy crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.

At this point I can only assume everybody else must have more than 400 ranks of backstab or something because I have no more trouble learning backstab than I do evasion or hiding. Either that or you're all just doing something wrong, heh. I'm sure it's just that my skills aren't pushing legendary levels or something though... heh.

This info I only thought to collect after I'd left orc manor tonight because I'd gotten all the boxes I needed. Hide, stalk, and backstab are all on odd-numbered ranks. Hide is two ranks less than stalk, and backstab is 40ish ranks less.

SECOND STORY ORC RAIDERS
(hide/stalk/backstab all 0/34 at start)

After 63 backstabs/61 kills:

Hiding: (12/34)
Stalking: (29/34)
Backstab: (10/34)

When I first started hunting the manor, hide and stalk trained more equally. Hiding is starting to slow down to the level of backstab, which has always been dead slow there.

ARMORED WARKLIN/WARKLIN MAULERS
(hide/backstab are both 0/34 and stalk is 15/34 at start)

After 87 ambushes/4 kills:

When the first stealth locked:

Hiding: (27/34)
Stalking: (34/34)
Backstab: (9/34)

When the second stealth locked:

Hiding: (34/34)
Stalking: (34/34)
Backstab: (11/34)

Hide and stalk both train very well here. First place tie for them. Backstab, as usual, takes the "also-was-present" award. Maybe not the best organized or complete test but hopefully of some use anyway.

Kaxis

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TIP OF THE DAY:
A heavy crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.

<<whether we want it over powered and slow to learn or nerfed and quick>>

We've been told BS is going to be nerfed, or should I say "brought within global caps" (that's the new hip phrase going around these days) I just hope the exp learning is looked at when that time comes.

Kaxis

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TIP OF THE DAY:
A heavy crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.

<<A nerf may well do it. I tested last night in Swains with my 145 BS, 123 LE and 110 ME.>>>

Except I'm not having the issue at about double those ranks. Try tier two snobs or kra'hei hatchlings. If this issue exists, I can only assume it actually occurs at 300+ ranks, or people are just too darn skurred to hunt at the level they "need" to for training BS. I've just gotten used to hunting basically a full peg up the critter ladder for Hide/Stalk/BS compared to where I train evasion despite my backstab and evasion being equal rank for rank.

Double post, but on that note I think I will give hatchlings a go to see what's what in there. I'll report back.

Quick question though, how are hatchling boxes compared to Swains? Right now I'm on the low end of swains (essentially just box skills holding me back from circling for a bit), just wondering if they're about on par or significantly more difficult.

<<However, I was getting masterful position most of the time (after I put up a certain ability) and I essentially locked BS using a single Swain.>>

I get masterful position in warklins most of the time and still get the results I posted earlier, after nearly 100 attacks.

<<or people are just too darn skurred to hunt at the level they "need" to for training BS.>>

I think the essential point is still being missed. I'm just one example, but my backstab is 40ish ranks less than my hide/stalk, not higher than, and still it can't keep up or even get anywhere close to hide/stalk under any and all circumstances. If your idea of underhunting backstab was correct then it should be my hide/stalk that lags since they would be closer to a cap, or all three skills, but not backstab alone. When the higher skills lock easily but the lower skill lags, that sounds like the system is wonky.

I think it was Falk? who recently had a thread somewhere that said he thought skills that are similar in nature or which act in concert with each other or which share the same usage nature should train reasonably close to each other. I can agree with that. For example, it would be odd if opening boxes trained disarm really well but hardly trained lockpick at all. It would be imbalanced.

Hide, stalk, and backstab are all stealth skills that are used as a concerted, integrated combat unit. They complement each other the same way the two box skills complement each other. Using the previous premise, it would make sense if the three stealth skills all trained similarly and tracked pretty much the same, with backstab locking about the same time as hide and stalk. If any of the three is wildly out of proportion to the other two, it just doesn't seem reasonable to me, especially if it's the lower skill.

I also think that having to attack something over and over again with the express purpose of not trying to kill it because somehow that odd way of non-hunting trains backstab better than actually just using the skill to kill, is wrong in principle. We should just be able to backstab or ambush creatures while hunting normally, and have all three stealth skills perform similarly and lock reasonably close to each other at all circles.

As for ranks, I honestly do not recall where the problem began developing. Maybe others can shed more light on it. I'm pretty sure death spirits and red leucros locked everything, and maybe geni.

It's really an experience issue, but I'm hoping this concern will be revisited along with everything else in the combat rewrite.

Kaxis

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TIP OF THE DAY:
A heavy crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.

As I said before. I hate complaining but honestly backstabbing is broken. Also yes it is powerful but so is the fire spitting mages can pull off. Almost all guilds have some uber powerful ability now.
So come on. Please ease up on how difficult it is to train backstab. It is messing with the reason exp was changed. We were supposed to be given the chance to suck up a lot of experience then go and roleplay. At the rate I am learning backstab I would have to nonstop grind just to barely get by. Therefore I am having to completely neglect rp if I want to train and circle. I would really like a good balance of both.

Mujaki, paladin of the people.

<<I hate complaining>>

There's nothing wrong with presenting what you feel are reasonable and legitimate concerns on the boards for discussion.

Kaxis

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TIP OF THE DAY:
A heavy crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.