Previous Thread
Previous
Expand All
Collapse All
Ignore Author
Reply
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=33&topic=4&message=1957
Here's at least 1 although it's fairly old. I know i've seen more recent ones, just can't find them.
Thank you for the responses, especially the link. Yes it appears fairly old, but seeing as I cannot remember the last major combat rewrite since that post I'm sure the spirit of the post is still accurate.
In any case I really wish they would do a temporary exp fix to the verb but I'll try to be patient.
“Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.” - Terry Pratchett
In any case I really wish they would do a temporary exp fix to the verb but I'll try to be patient.
“Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.” - Terry Pratchett
I'd just like to make a comment from the other camp (of people who think backstab works just fine).
I have 151 ranks in backstab and have never had trouble locking it. It currently outranks my weapon, which is at 129, and I have never put any extra effort into the backstabbing. I always backstab, never ambush and have simply moved up the bi-ped chain since day one. I train my defenses so i can survive around the creatures i stab, however, they still lag a bit, but not to the point where i stop learning backstabbing.
I do not write this to sound like an ass or cause any conflict (though I'm sure this sentence will be the one quoted in the coming responses), but i just wonder what you are all doing so differently from me. I literally put zero extra effort into training, and the skill only lags behind hiding and stalking. does weapon balance have anything to do with it? I've used a Tago since about day 20 and it has always worked extremely well, what weapon do you all use that causes you so many training troubles?
I have 151 ranks in backstab and have never had trouble locking it. It currently outranks my weapon, which is at 129, and I have never put any extra effort into the backstabbing. I always backstab, never ambush and have simply moved up the bi-ped chain since day one. I train my defenses so i can survive around the creatures i stab, however, they still lag a bit, but not to the point where i stop learning backstabbing.
I do not write this to sound like an ass or cause any conflict (though I'm sure this sentence will be the one quoted in the coming responses), but i just wonder what you are all doing so differently from me. I literally put zero extra effort into training, and the skill only lags behind hiding and stalking. does weapon balance have anything to do with it? I've used a Tago since about day 20 and it has always worked extremely well, what weapon do you all use that causes you so many training troubles?
<,I've used a Tago since about day 20 and it has always worked extremely well, what weapon do you all use that causes you so many training troubles?>>
You are nerfing your damage potential by using light edge to get increased number of stabs.
One shouldn't have to a bare minimum of damage 50 billion times on one critter to learn. Wait till you start killing in one or two strikes.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
You are nerfing your damage potential by using light edge to get increased number of stabs.
One shouldn't have to a bare minimum of damage 50 billion times on one critter to learn. Wait till you start killing in one or two strikes.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
>You are nerfing your damage potential by using light edge to get increased number of stabs.
And you're nerfing your accuracy by using medium edged weapons which are poorly suited to the task.
To DREIBELBIS1: I'm glad you aren't having issues. Probably the combination of relatively low skill (no offense) and your hunting choices. I'm glad it's working for you though.
Don't get me wrong, I love backstabbing. It just isn't as good for training. So I face a bit of a dilemma.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
And you're nerfing your accuracy by using medium edged weapons which are poorly suited to the task.
To DREIBELBIS1: I'm glad you aren't having issues. Probably the combination of relatively low skill (no offense) and your hunting choices. I'm glad it's working for you though.
Don't get me wrong, I love backstabbing. It just isn't as good for training. So I face a bit of a dilemma.
>describe boar
It's a boar. It doesn't like you.
Just trying to provide an alternate perspective...
additionally, a number of the people who complain about blackstab are lower rank than me, so i dont think my (relatively) low skill level has too much to do with it. My post was a probe trying to figure out which x-factor is actually making it harder for you guys to learn it.
additionally, a number of the people who complain about blackstab are lower rank than me, so i dont think my (relatively) low skill level has too much to do with it. My post was a probe trying to figure out which x-factor is actually making it harder for you guys to learn it.
>>additionally, a number of the people who complain about blackstab are lower rank than me
I have almost 350 BS and I highly doubt I could train it by backstabbing things in my range.
Vashir: one day I will devise a weapon fueled by the tears of warrior mages
Vashir: it'll be unstoppable
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcszxzpn_22g3mtzcv
I have almost 350 BS and I highly doubt I could train it by backstabbing things in my range.
Vashir: one day I will devise a weapon fueled by the tears of warrior mages
Vashir: it'll be unstoppable
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcszxzpn_22g3mtzcv
I made the same statement in the complaints folder, high 100s in BS, low 100s in weapons. Use backstab to learn it, works just fine. The conversation melted down to, people with higher ranks can't learn it anymore without ambush. What I find strange is why it's contest isnt adjusted to where hiding and stalkings contest is, so as long as you are learning hiding/stalking by passing the skilltest, you would learn the same amount of backstab, by passing the skill contest. It seems like the backstab perception contest is much lower then that of the hiding/stalking contest.
I origionally agreed with you backstab works and teaches fine. But 1. so many people at much higher ranks say they can't learn using it, and 2. Getting into the 170s in BS now I'm having to move from dark spirits to death spirits to learn it (even tho I'm still learning hide/stalk there with higher ranks). My combats are definitely not capable yet of keeping me alive too long in death spirits without some major clerical buffing added to my khris. That is quite inconvenient for me.
I origionally agreed with you backstab works and teaches fine. But 1. so many people at much higher ranks say they can't learn using it, and 2. Getting into the 170s in BS now I'm having to move from dark spirits to death spirits to learn it (even tho I'm still learning hide/stalk there with higher ranks). My combats are definitely not capable yet of keeping me alive too long in death spirits without some major clerical buffing added to my khris. That is quite inconvenient for me.
IIRC the back stab vs Perc contest isn't subject to the melee range modifier the way the hiding/stalking contests are. So it's easier to pull off but won't teach as well.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
Just thought I'd chime in:
With over 300 in backstab, I can learn fine in adan'f (using backstab command) when I collect boxes, but I supplement stealth/BS in gryphons (using ambush/attack neck) while training defense. When using backstab command in adan'f, I find that I lock stalking first, then backstab, then hiding. I can think of worse ways to train.
- The Squirrel in Plat
With over 300 in backstab, I can learn fine in adan'f (using backstab command) when I collect boxes, but I supplement stealth/BS in gryphons (using ambush/attack neck) while training defense. When using backstab command in adan'f, I find that I lock stalking first, then backstab, then hiding. I can think of worse ways to train.
- The Squirrel in Plat
Yeah, as you can see by my earlier posts in this thread, backstab was moving really well for me just using BACKSTAB on bipeds at lower ranks. Now I have to ambush eyes over... and over... and over... and over....
The only way now BACKSTAB trains the Backstab skill with any kind of efficiency is when I'm fighting something way over my head. Like sky giants.
The only way now BACKSTAB trains the Backstab skill with any kind of efficiency is when I'm fighting something way over my head. Like sky giants.
>>Now I have to ambush eyes over... and over... and over... and over....
Are you actually getting "masterfully positioned" doing this?
Vashir: one day I will devise a weapon fueled by the tears of warrior mages
Vashir: it'll be unstoppable
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcszxzpn_22g3mtzcv
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Out_of_Character
Are you actually getting "masterfully positioned" doing this?
Vashir: one day I will devise a weapon fueled by the tears of warrior mages
Vashir: it'll be unstoppable
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcszxzpn_22g3mtzcv
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Out_of_Character
Its not a backstab issue. You have to look at when Backstab caps out on the critters your hunting. Yes its not right that you have to "ambush" instead of "backstab" to move it once you hit the cap on the critter your hunting.
Having over 320 ranks in backstab, my ME (highest weapon) is nearly 60 ranks below backstab. Have to remember folks, backstab is a survival skill, where as weapons are a tert. Kinda learn weapons slower. If its causing that kind of problems, focus for now on with just weapons till they catch up. Thats the best advice I can give. Which is what I"m doing now that I"ve hit 80th. I'm not worried about training to cirle. I'm now worried about training to be more well rounded.
But I think thats what the nail of the head is. Backstab outclassing weapons and weapons lagging by quiet a bit because of how we learn it. We may just cap out say Adan'f with backstab way before our weapons hit 300. Where Adan'f cap at 350? Give or take?
Thats what I"m seeing anyways. No one wants to say hey, my weapons are sitting at this rank, but backstab is 60,70, even 80 ranks above our weapons. We can't learn backstab because we can't hunt Sky Giants. etc etc because our weapons/armor ranks won't let us. I believe thats what the main trouble is.
Anyone else agree? Or disaggree? Or agree to just disaggree?
~Dalkin and his driver Jim~
Having over 320 ranks in backstab, my ME (highest weapon) is nearly 60 ranks below backstab. Have to remember folks, backstab is a survival skill, where as weapons are a tert. Kinda learn weapons slower. If its causing that kind of problems, focus for now on with just weapons till they catch up. Thats the best advice I can give. Which is what I"m doing now that I"ve hit 80th. I'm not worried about training to cirle. I'm now worried about training to be more well rounded.
But I think thats what the nail of the head is. Backstab outclassing weapons and weapons lagging by quiet a bit because of how we learn it. We may just cap out say Adan'f with backstab way before our weapons hit 300. Where Adan'f cap at 350? Give or take?
Thats what I"m seeing anyways. No one wants to say hey, my weapons are sitting at this rank, but backstab is 60,70, even 80 ranks above our weapons. We can't learn backstab because we can't hunt Sky Giants. etc etc because our weapons/armor ranks won't let us. I believe thats what the main trouble is.
Anyone else agree? Or disaggree? Or agree to just disaggree?
~Dalkin and his driver Jim~
> No one wants to say hey, my weapons are sitting at this rank, but backstab is 60,70, even 80 ranks above our weapons. We can't learn backstab because we can't hunt Sky Giants. etc etc because our weapons/armor ranks won't let us. I believe thats what the main trouble is.
At the moment (circle 72) my primary weapon is ~313 (LE) and backstab is ~292. When I log in next the exp drain will take MO to 300 and I have 285 in leather. I find that I can often hunt things better out in the open than by backstab (without using khri) but that is purely due to how I have been training.
>Its not a backstab issue. You have to look at when Backstab caps out on the critters your hunting.
The problem is that hiding and stalking will likely still be very trainable on the critters even as backstab is starting to slow down, which is probably why it gets complained about.
At the moment (circle 72) my primary weapon is ~313 (LE) and backstab is ~292. When I log in next the exp drain will take MO to 300 and I have 285 in leather. I find that I can often hunt things better out in the open than by backstab (without using khri) but that is purely due to how I have been training.
>Its not a backstab issue. You have to look at when Backstab caps out on the critters your hunting.
The problem is that hiding and stalking will likely still be very trainable on the critters even as backstab is starting to slow down, which is probably why it gets complained about.
I believe weapons are secondary for thieves along with lore whereas magic and armor are tert.
But I have to agree with this thread. Hiding and stalking are 70-80 ranks above my weapons. Backstab, which I neglected horribly when I started (and at one time was half my highest weapon) and I am now actively training, has started to creep over my highest weapon by about 10 ranks so far. While I'd love to move evasion, when using stealth it isn't really an option. My parry is about on par with evasion and shield is creeping up also when I actively train it.
But I have to agree with this thread. Hiding and stalking are 70-80 ranks above my weapons. Backstab, which I neglected horribly when I started (and at one time was half my highest weapon) and I am now actively training, has started to creep over my highest weapon by about 10 ranks so far. While I'd love to move evasion, when using stealth it isn't really an option. My parry is about on par with evasion and shield is creeping up also when I actively train it.
>>While I'd love to move evasion, when using stealth it isn't really an option.
My suggestion is to always get some kind of exp going in your defenses before moving onto offensive and stealthy actions.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
My suggestion is to always get some kind of exp going in your defenses before moving onto offensive and stealthy actions.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Depends what you can handle in combat. Why not look at http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Bestiary_Level_List and find a new critter.
Depending on your defenses, you've probably capped what the third-tier snoblins can teach. I would suggest laches, if you have access to a friendly cleric and if the bugs don't bother you. If the laches don't work, the bone mastiffs are through an arch in the same area- but be ready to run if a shylvic manages to cast Curse of Zachriedek on you; That will really mess up your armor and weapon.
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
If you are prepared to travel, you could try the ur hhrki'i'zh in Aesry Necropolis, those should see you beyond 300 then you can move onto graverobbers in the cemetary. The hhrks are cursed but not undead, and are unstunnable, box dropping bipeds. Ditto for graverobbers.
Hhrks are terrible for defense training however, but if your defenses are close to your BS skill, you will love nipoh oshu in the sea caves. Just make sure you have around 30 stamina to compensate for the steam attacks.
Hhrks are terrible for defense training however, but if your defenses are close to your BS skill, you will love nipoh oshu in the sea caves. Just make sure you have around 30 stamina to compensate for the steam attacks.
<<Is it better to use backstab {name} or ambush {name} (part) in PvP? Does one do more dammage than the other?>>
Currently backstab uses a stealth contest to bypass shield and parry and can only be dodged. It also gives a significant damage boost bases on the stealth contest. So yes, more damage from backstab.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Currently backstab uses a stealth contest to bypass shield and parry and can only be dodged. It also gives a significant damage boost bases on the stealth contest. So yes, more damage from backstab.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
So I have read several posts about backstab learning rates and such. My question is in relation to the actual experience gain of backstab vs LE and backstab vs ME. From both sides being not locked in weapon skill and then again from being locked. The reason I am curious about locked vs not locked is I have noticed that backstab exp appears to increase once my weapon skill is locked.
I am sure that someone has tested this before and my capabilities are somewhat limited. Would someone mind posting their results or share with me a viable method for me to put this to the test.
I use Wizard. Currently My skills are...
backstab 210
LE 217
ME 193
Also interested in the difference of having weapon skills higher or lower than backstab in relation to experience gain ratios.
I am sure that someone has tested this before and my capabilities are somewhat limited. Would someone mind posting their results or share with me a viable method for me to put this to the test.
I use Wizard. Currently My skills are...
backstab 210
LE 217
ME 193
Also interested in the difference of having weapon skills higher or lower than backstab in relation to experience gain ratios.
I actually have rarely used ME with backstabbing. And I don't think I have a problem learning. Granted there is a considerable amount of time reaching mindlock in backstab. What I am looking for is a way to test this.
When you backstab or ambush with LE you learn LE and backstab. Assuming that you are capable of learning. How much per different levels of hits strong, heavy, etc. goes towards LE and how much toward backstab. And the same goes for ME.
Now, with the weapon locked how much exp gain per hit goes toward backstab. Is is increased because your weapon is locked and that exp transfers fully, partially or not at all to backstab.
What I am looking for is a way for me to test this. Or if someone already has if they would mind sharing this type of information. Maybe I'll even strike someone's curiosity that uses Genie or such with better frontend capabilities than what I have. What bothers me mainly about me testing this is the fact that I use Wizard. And looking for insight as to how with limited resources I could go about doing some testing.
When you backstab or ambush with LE you learn LE and backstab. Assuming that you are capable of learning. How much per different levels of hits strong, heavy, etc. goes towards LE and how much toward backstab. And the same goes for ME.
Now, with the weapon locked how much exp gain per hit goes toward backstab. Is is increased because your weapon is locked and that exp transfers fully, partially or not at all to backstab.
What I am looking for is a way for me to test this. Or if someone already has if they would mind sharing this type of information. Maybe I'll even strike someone's curiosity that uses Genie or such with better frontend capabilities than what I have. What bothers me mainly about me testing this is the fact that I use Wizard. And looking for insight as to how with limited resources I could go about doing some testing.
>>When you backstab or ambush with LE you learn LE and backstab. Assuming that you are capable of learning. How much per different levels of hits strong, heavy, etc. goes towards LE and how much toward backstab.
The amount of weapon you learn is affected by how hard the hit is. The amount of backstab does not appear to be, though I haven't been around the forums enough to know if this has been absolutely confirmed by a GM.
I train my Thief under the assumption that a light hit teaches Backstab just as well as an apocalyptic.
The amount of weapon you learn is affected by how hard the hit is. The amount of backstab does not appear to be, though I haven't been around the forums enough to know if this has been absolutely confirmed by a GM.
I train my Thief under the assumption that a light hit teaches Backstab just as well as an apocalyptic.
The way I understand it (which could be WAY WRONG) is that the amount of backstab learned depends on how hard the stealth contest is and how much you win it by. A hard contest won by a lot would yield the most experience (which is why ambush right eye gives more than backstabbing on the same creature).
<<the amount of backstab learned depends on how hard the stealth contest is and how much you win it by.>>
Which is what we assume, except hiding is also a stealth contest and doesn't have these issues when 100 - 200 ranks over backstab
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Which is what we assume, except hiding is also a stealth contest and doesn't have these issues when 100 - 200 ranks over backstab
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
<<If a weapon locks before backstab, I switch weapons.>>
<<I just finished backstabbing in sky giants. 23 kills locked LE, at which point I switched to ME and locked backstab with 6 more kills.>>
<<BS 539>>
<<LE 431>>
<<ME 366>>
We have something of a mystery on our hands. I've been working backstab in sky giants for a while, and I've never come close to that kind of production. It takes me the better part of an hour to lock backstab. I can't remember the last time I locked LE through backstab.
After 23 LE sky giant kills:
Light Edged: 506 70% considering (6/34)
Backstab: 512 89% thinking (5/34)
After 6 more kills (I didn't have an ME on me so all kills are LE):
Light Edged: 506 71% pondering (7/34)
Backstab: 512 90% ruminating (8/34)
The plot thickens...
Kaxis
http://www.tinyurl.com/kaxisforgedarmor
For my forged LC/HC, IM me at KaxisDR or visit Ciressa's Tiny Haven in the Riverhaven Market Plaza (from town square/temple go: north, go plaza, north) 12pm - 7pm EST daily. Lirums only.
<<I just finished backstabbing in sky giants. 23 kills locked LE, at which point I switched to ME and locked backstab with 6 more kills.>>
<<BS 539>>
<<LE 431>>
<<ME 366>>
We have something of a mystery on our hands. I've been working backstab in sky giants for a while, and I've never come close to that kind of production. It takes me the better part of an hour to lock backstab. I can't remember the last time I locked LE through backstab.
After 23 LE sky giant kills:
Light Edged: 506 70% considering (6/34)
Backstab: 512 89% thinking (5/34)
After 6 more kills (I didn't have an ME on me so all kills are LE):
Light Edged: 506 71% pondering (7/34)
Backstab: 512 90% ruminating (8/34)
The plot thickens...
Kaxis
http://www.tinyurl.com/kaxisforgedarmor
For my forged LC/HC, IM me at KaxisDR or visit Ciressa's Tiny Haven in the Riverhaven Market Plaza (from town square/temple go: north, go plaza, north) 12pm - 7pm EST daily. Lirums only.
