Previous Thread
Expand All
Collapse All
Ignore Author
Reply
Any time I'm in the same hunting ground as a Thief, I basically just give up and leave, because they always refuse to kill any creatures and they hog the entire hunting ground spawn to themselves. I am told by multiple Thieves that this is because backstabbing is impossible to train without 4 creatures on you, where you use the crappiest weapon possible and feint them over and over without killing them. I've been told that if I want any creatures to spawn in my room I should petition on the forums for backstab to be fixed so that Thieves aren't required to dance with 4 creatures to train it.
So can this please be fixed? I'm sure it sucks as a Thief to have a weapon skill that requires dancing with 4 creatures in order to train it, and it really sucks even more for other people in the hunting ground to have their entire game experience ground to a halt every time a Thief enters the area.
I don't know if this is better to post in a Combat folder, but it seems more like a Thief issue, and not necessarily something that would be resolved in Combat 3.0, so I figure it is better to post here. Please fix, this sucks for everyone involved
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
I have no problem training backstab while killing stuff. I only feint when there are below a certain number of mobs (to keep from killing the last 1 or 2, depending on the mob). The only reason to keep more than 1 is to train defenses.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Unless something has changed and I missed the announcement (which is entirely possible) what we've always heard is that only hiding/stalking contests the perception of every critter in the room. BS only contests the perception of the critter you're attacking and doesn't require a swarm.
Backstab issues have been complained about many times on the boards, and word is all three stealth skills are up for review once 3.0 is in place. Probably won't be a change until then unfortunately.
Kaxis
>You tap a hooded huckleberry hound-pelt cloak that you are wearing.
Backstab issues have been complained about many times on the boards, and word is all three stealth skills are up for review once 3.0 is in place. Probably won't be a change until then unfortunately.
Kaxis
>You tap a hooded huckleberry hound-pelt cloak that you are wearing.
>>I only feint when there are below a certain number of mobs (to keep from killing the last 1 or 2, depending on the mob). The only reason to keep more than 1 is to train defenses.
Well I really don't get it then, because I've seen probably 5 or 6 different Thieves doing this in head-splitters. Always hidden >90% of the time (so not training defenses), always attacking with a carving knife (so not killing anything for 20+ minutes), always hogging the spawn and making it impossible for others in the hunting ground to train anything. It's not like it's just one person being inconsiderate - it's an epidemic with many different people doing it. At the absolute worst yesterday there were 2 thieves plus me in the area, one thief had 4 mobs, the other had 5, and I got zero for literally 20 minutes straight, despite moving between 7 rooms.
Head-splitters will swarm like crazy if people actually kill stuff, but once a room get 4-5 stuck in there on one thief (how do they even get 5? I thought that was impossible but it happens alot - I guess with all the hiding/unhiding they get confused?), it pretty much shuts off the spawn completely unless there are 4+ hunters in the area (which there rarely is). Even if people just killed one damn creature killing one and left 3 alive, it would work wonders for everyone else in the area, but for some reason apparently no one ever does this :(
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Well I really don't get it then, because I've seen probably 5 or 6 different Thieves doing this in head-splitters. Always hidden >90% of the time (so not training defenses), always attacking with a carving knife (so not killing anything for 20+ minutes), always hogging the spawn and making it impossible for others in the hunting ground to train anything. It's not like it's just one person being inconsiderate - it's an epidemic with many different people doing it. At the absolute worst yesterday there were 2 thieves plus me in the area, one thief had 4 mobs, the other had 5, and I got zero for literally 20 minutes straight, despite moving between 7 rooms.
Head-splitters will swarm like crazy if people actually kill stuff, but once a room get 4-5 stuck in there on one thief (how do they even get 5? I thought that was impossible but it happens alot - I guess with all the hiding/unhiding they get confused?), it pretty much shuts off the spawn completely unless there are 4+ hunters in the area (which there rarely is). Even if people just killed one damn creature killing one and left 3 alive, it would work wonders for everyone else in the area, but for some reason apparently no one ever does this :(
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>Head-splitters will swarm like crazy if people actually kill stuff, but once a room get 4-5 stuck in there on one thief (how do they even get 5? I thought that was impossible but it happens alot - I guess with all the hiding/unhiding they get confused?), it pretty much shuts off the spawn completely unless there are 4+ hunters in the area (which there rarely is). Even if people just killed one damn creature killing one and left 3 alive, it would work wonders for everyone else in the area, but for some reason apparently no one ever does this :(
Besides the backstab thing, keeping four critters at melee constantly is the "optimal" way to train stalking and hiding. It's not just Thieves, I've seen several Necros do this too.
Why the quotes around optimal? Cause I really have no clue why they would do this for a half hour or more at times. I've raised this issue several times myself and gotten no definitive answer. The only thing I can think of is that said survival primaries are <expletive deleted> scripters and don't know how to create a freaking variable or match table to cycle to weapons/defenses once stalking is mind locked.
I'm not sure what options you have right now besides AFK reporting or killing said hunters. Personally, I am trying to comfort myself with the knowledge that 3.0 will make keeping that many critters on you a very, very bad idea.
Besides the backstab thing, keeping four critters at melee constantly is the "optimal" way to train stalking and hiding. It's not just Thieves, I've seen several Necros do this too.
Why the quotes around optimal? Cause I really have no clue why they would do this for a half hour or more at times. I've raised this issue several times myself and gotten no definitive answer. The only thing I can think of is that said survival primaries are <expletive deleted> scripters and don't know how to create a freaking variable or match table to cycle to weapons/defenses once stalking is mind locked.
I'm not sure what options you have right now besides AFK reporting or killing said hunters. Personally, I am trying to comfort myself with the knowledge that 3.0 will make keeping that many critters on you a very, very bad idea.
I can't speak for others but when I hunt I generally go through the same routine:
Lock defences (shield, parry, MO, evasion, leather and LC)
Lock stealths + backstab - 4 critters moves hide/stalk quickly but backstab takes considerably longer.
As I hunt in celpeze there are usually plenty to go around so spawn is not an issue, so I generally keep 4 at melee as I like to leave with all combats mindlocked (these days I only log in to lock them then I log out again) and because backstab takes so long to get to mindlock...
It's possible to use 1 critter for backstab training as by the time it is locked, hide and stalk will be too, even with the diminishing returns from using just the one.
Honestly if the learning rate for BS was uptweaked there would be no problem. It's just an incredible annoyance both for Thieves and other hunters and despite many, many posts on the subject here we are still stuck with it.
Critters do attack often enough between stabs to keep defences locked if you have 4 at melee and are just doing a simple stalk+ambush routine.
Lock defences (shield, parry, MO, evasion, leather and LC)
Lock stealths + backstab - 4 critters moves hide/stalk quickly but backstab takes considerably longer.
As I hunt in celpeze there are usually plenty to go around so spawn is not an issue, so I generally keep 4 at melee as I like to leave with all combats mindlocked (these days I only log in to lock them then I log out again) and because backstab takes so long to get to mindlock...
It's possible to use 1 critter for backstab training as by the time it is locked, hide and stalk will be too, even with the diminishing returns from using just the one.
Honestly if the learning rate for BS was uptweaked there would be no problem. It's just an incredible annoyance both for Thieves and other hunters and despite many, many posts on the subject here we are still stuck with it.
Critters do attack often enough between stabs to keep defences locked if you have 4 at melee and are just doing a simple stalk+ambush routine.
I dont hunt as high level as previous posters but i can indeed verify that this technique applies for training stalking. I dont see any difference in backstabbing but stalking sure moves considerably faster with 4 critters rather than one or two.
The same goes for evasion, i usually "milk" any hunting area up to 4 critters. :)
The same goes for evasion, i usually "milk" any hunting area up to 4 critters. :)
One more to add to the lock defenses then work BS pile. I try to think of others a bit though, so I just lock parry, and shield (over 100 lower than evasion, so lock fairly quick) then I switch to train BS. Once it hits 20/34 I start killing things though. Throwing in a stalk/ambush while training melee weapons helps keep it moving the rest of the time.
I had to stop locking BS a long time ago though. Even when it was in the high 200s it would take 45+ minutes to lock. It has suffered a bit compared to my other survivals, but still plenty above my weapons.
I'm agreement that BS exp needs to change, and hope it is after 3.0 is released. Outside of that nothing is going to change spawn hogging while we train it though.
I had to stop locking BS a long time ago though. Even when it was in the high 200s it would take 45+ minutes to lock. It has suffered a bit compared to my other survivals, but still plenty above my weapons.
I'm agreement that BS exp needs to change, and hope it is after 3.0 is released. Outside of that nothing is going to change spawn hogging while we train it though.
>>The only thing I can think of is that said survival primaries are <expletive deleted> scripters and don't know how to create a freaking variable or match table to cycle to weapons/defenses once stalking is mind locked.
I think this is the only thing that would really make any sense. All it would take is a simple "if $monstercount > 3, then kill one" and the head-splitters would keep swarming for everyone, plus they would move weapons at the same time
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
I think this is the only thing that would really make any sense. All it would take is a simple "if $monstercount > 3, then kill one" and the head-splitters would keep swarming for everyone, plus they would move weapons at the same time
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>Any time I'm in the same hunting ground as a Thief, I basically just give up and leave, because they always refuse to kill any creatures and they hog the entire hunting ground spawn to themselves. I am told by multiple Thieves that this is because backstabbing is impossible to train without 4 creatures on you, where you use the crappiest weapon possible and feint them over and over without killing them.
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but the answer to Apu's question is that those Thieves are most likely training inefficiently. Backstab is relatively simple to learn, even for me at well over 800 ranks, and does not require hogging spawn nor feinting. I have a much harder time with crossbow than I ever have with backstab.
I trained backstab in headsplitters, and I didn't ruin other hunters' spawn along the way, so I'm not sure what the issue there is.
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but the answer to Apu's question is that those Thieves are most likely training inefficiently. Backstab is relatively simple to learn, even for me at well over 800 ranks, and does not require hogging spawn nor feinting. I have a much harder time with crossbow than I ever have with backstab.
I trained backstab in headsplitters, and I didn't ruin other hunters' spawn along the way, so I'm not sure what the issue there is.
Yeah they're training wrong. I move hide/stalk/BS just fine on one mob or four. I use a nice weapon and just feint to minimize the damage, the trick is to aim for the spot that will teach you the most. Finding this sweet ambush spot is the only hard part.
I generally use this checklist to find the spot:
Try the back first.
Try the neck.
Try the head.
Try the left/right eye.
I generally use this checklist to find the spot:
Try the back first.
Try the neck.
Try the head.
Try the left/right eye.
<<Thieves are most likely training inefficiently.>>
No doubt some are. But it's been pointed out before that for unexplainable reasons the various techniques for backstab training don't work equally well for all thieves. The thieves that don't seem to have much of an issue never believe it, but the idea that all slow backstab training is due to poor technique isn't true. It locks, it can just be very slow for some.
<<I trained backstab in head-splitters, and I didn't ruin other hunters' spawn along the way, so I'm not sure what the issue there is.>>
I can relate, but what he's keying on is how well the room stays thinned out. Unless it's late at night, head-splitter rush hour is usually so heavy I can hardly keep up with it no matter what weapon I'm using, even one-punching every one of them. So it might appear I'm hogging spawn when I'm actually hustling. But if spawn is slow I tend to use the crappy weapon method Apu mentioned.
<<just feint to minimize the damage,>>
This style of training is exactly what Apu is complaining about. Feinting => minimized damage => critters lasting longer => better chance of critters piling up in the room (swarm) since they're not being killed fast enough => other hunters complaining about thieves hogging spawn => Apu posting in the thief complaint folder...
Here's his complaint:
<<I am told by multiple Thieves... feint them over and over without killing them.>>
Your comment is a good example of what I'm talking about. Feinting works well for you, but it doesn't work at all for Kaxis. It totally skews his stealth experience. When backstabbing, hiding and stalking stay pretty even while backstab is about half as much. When feinting, hiding surges while stalking slows way down and backstab tanks even worse. Oddly, sniping does exactly the same thing to his stealth training, which is one reason I never snipe. Feinting increases the time Kaxis needs to train backstab.
It's not as a big deal for me since I don't really hunt that much any more. I'm the lore thief. But it's a serious issue for others.
Kaxis
>You tap a hooded huckleberry hound-pelt cloak that you are wearing.
No doubt some are. But it's been pointed out before that for unexplainable reasons the various techniques for backstab training don't work equally well for all thieves. The thieves that don't seem to have much of an issue never believe it, but the idea that all slow backstab training is due to poor technique isn't true. It locks, it can just be very slow for some.
<<I trained backstab in head-splitters, and I didn't ruin other hunters' spawn along the way, so I'm not sure what the issue there is.>>
I can relate, but what he's keying on is how well the room stays thinned out. Unless it's late at night, head-splitter rush hour is usually so heavy I can hardly keep up with it no matter what weapon I'm using, even one-punching every one of them. So it might appear I'm hogging spawn when I'm actually hustling. But if spawn is slow I tend to use the crappy weapon method Apu mentioned.
<<just feint to minimize the damage,>>
This style of training is exactly what Apu is complaining about. Feinting => minimized damage => critters lasting longer => better chance of critters piling up in the room (swarm) since they're not being killed fast enough => other hunters complaining about thieves hogging spawn => Apu posting in the thief complaint folder...
Here's his complaint:
<<I am told by multiple Thieves... feint them over and over without killing them.>>
Your comment is a good example of what I'm talking about. Feinting works well for you, but it doesn't work at all for Kaxis. It totally skews his stealth experience. When backstabbing, hiding and stalking stay pretty even while backstab is about half as much. When feinting, hiding surges while stalking slows way down and backstab tanks even worse. Oddly, sniping does exactly the same thing to his stealth training, which is one reason I never snipe. Feinting increases the time Kaxis needs to train backstab.
It's not as a big deal for me since I don't really hunt that much any more. I'm the lore thief. But it's a serious issue for others.
Kaxis
>You tap a hooded huckleberry hound-pelt cloak that you are wearing.
>>No doubt some are. But it's been pointed out before that for unexplainable reasons the various techniques for backstab training don't work equally well for all thieves. The thieves that don't seem to have much of an issue never believe it, but the idea that all slow backstab training is due to poor technique isn't true. It locks, it can just be very slow for some.
Is there some underlying issue with characters that get rolled out of character gen or something which dictates if a thief learns backstab well or not? Seems like it boils down to training methods to me. I highly doubt two different thieves will learn backstab at different rates with identical skills/stats using the same methods, one of them is doing it differently.
Is there some underlying issue with characters that get rolled out of character gen or something which dictates if a thief learns backstab well or not? Seems like it boils down to training methods to me. I highly doubt two different thieves will learn backstab at different rates with identical skills/stats using the same methods, one of them is doing it differently.
