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>>I'm probably just confused but... whats a restricted skill and why is it stealing for teefs?
Typo on my part.
A restricted skill means it can't be used as a circle req.
I've fixed the Thief one to allow stealing :G:.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Typo on my part.
A restricted skill means it can't be used as a circle req.
I've fixed the Thief one to allow stealing :G:.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Looks like stealing/thievery is the only one I'm short on. Need 520 and I stopped working it at 500 just to get Shadow Wraith for a post title. So a little grandfathering for me I guess.
Kaxis
>A dobek moruryn sits perfectly still.
>The dobek moruryn crumbles apart.
You say, "Hey, use it or lose it, buddy."
Kaxis
>A dobek moruryn sits perfectly still.
>The dobek moruryn crumbles apart.
You say, "Hey, use it or lose it, buddy."
>so does that mean I should stop training it entirely until the combine and suck up all the free ranks?
Remember, grandfathered ranks will come out of your bonus pool.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Remember, grandfathered ranks will come out of your bonus pool.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>Remember, grandfathered ranks will come out of your bonus pool.
Honestly that might actually preferable to training it, if I don't give a hoot about the weapons pool.
That's a lot of time I could spend working other skills that don't take nearly as long to lock.
But I did kinda need the reminder.
I think the new reqs look good, a little worried about lore skills for those still circling I thought one of the points of the mech split was to make people not have to craft if they didn't to, but seems like that might be awful tough with the new reqs... doesn't really matter for me I guess at 150 but thinking about others, other characters, other guilds etc.
I'm hoping as part of 3.0, I might actually want to start playing another character.
The only real issue I have, is thematic (and I may be shooting myself in the foot)
With choosing 8 survivals out of a possible 10, why would the guildleaders care how good I am at outdoorsmanship, or skinning or first aid? They don't seem really thiefly. (I say this with 2 of those in my top 8, one of which in my top 4).
Other than that, stealing (thievery) is the only thing I need, mainly because of how much of a pain it is to train at higher levels.
Lore dropping bothers me, as I no longer need any lore to circle.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
With choosing 8 survivals out of a possible 10, why would the guildleaders care how good I am at outdoorsmanship, or skinning or first aid? They don't seem really thiefly. (I say this with 2 of those in my top 8, one of which in my top 4).
Other than that, stealing (thievery) is the only thing I need, mainly because of how much of a pain it is to train at higher levels.
Lore dropping bothers me, as I no longer need any lore to circle.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
1) I hate stealing.
>Other than that, stealing (thievery) is the only thing I need, mainly because of how much of a pain it is to train at higher levels.
Yeah, and it's a worthless skill.
Argh. I hate this skill. Slower to lock, and earns less money than just hunting. No idea what the point of stealing is.
2)
Does nth survival mean any survival, not the restricted list we currently choose form?
>Other than that, stealing (thievery) is the only thing I need, mainly because of how much of a pain it is to train at higher levels.
Yeah, and it's a worthless skill.
Argh. I hate this skill. Slower to lock, and earns less money than just hunting. No idea what the point of stealing is.
2)
Does nth survival mean any survival, not the restricted list we currently choose form?
I'd like to just say that I lock stealing in less than 10 minutes and earn about 4.5 plat doing it.
as far as the point...
well just gonna hope that since the point of changing it to thievery is to open it up to other things... that exactly that will happen.
its of of my favorite skills, but so is climbing... maybe im just crazy
>* Once you get magic reqs, you'll be basically on par with rangers as far as circling difficulty. Right now, you're a bit below them.
?
150th survival reqs:
Thieves are clearly harder survival reqs. Oh, and we have two hard survival reqs compared to ranger's one. One of which can't be trained in combat, and can only be trained in a few places in game (none near high level hunting...until recently intercessors/assassins help this).
Weapons? Thieves and rangers have identical first and second weapon.
Finally, rangers have more armor, thieves have more lore. The ranger armor req is pretty easy. And the thief lore req is too. Let's call these a wash.
Summary Ranger and thief offset each other on weapons, lore, armor. However, thieves definitely have higher hard survival requirements, and thieves have higher overall survival requirements. Once thieves get magic reqs, they will have higher reqs than rangers. I'm fine with this. I'd prefer our reqs to be harder. But let's call it what it is and be accurate and say they'll be harder.
?
150th survival reqs:
| Skill | Thief | Ranger |
| 1st Survival | 770 | 730 |
| 2nd Survival | 730 | 730 |
| 3rd Survival | 720 | 720 |
| 4th Survival | 720 | 640 |
| 5th Survival | 640 | 640 |
| 6th Survival | 610 | 520 |
| 7th Survival | 570 | 520 |
| 8th Survival | 370 | 470 |
Thieves are clearly harder survival reqs. Oh, and we have two hard survival reqs compared to ranger's one. One of which can't be trained in combat, and can only be trained in a few places in game (none near high level hunting...until recently intercessors/assassins help this).
Weapons? Thieves and rangers have identical first and second weapon.
Finally, rangers have more armor, thieves have more lore. The ranger armor req is pretty easy. And the thief lore req is too. Let's call these a wash.
Summary Ranger and thief offset each other on weapons, lore, armor. However, thieves definitely have higher hard survival requirements, and thieves have higher overall survival requirements. Once thieves get magic reqs, they will have higher reqs than rangers. I'm fine with this. I'd prefer our reqs to be harder. But let's call it what it is and be accurate and say they'll be harder.
some math for you:
4.5 plats in 10 minutes = 648 plats a day
i get more plats than this a day. and i only spend about 2/3 of my time in combat. i forage, climb, etc.
Your rate is lower than my plat intake rate while hunting. And that's assuming you can keep up your 4.5 plats / 10 minutes pace continuously. Which you can't because of the stealing timer.
Also, did you factor in transportation time? If you train all your skills in one area (hunting ground) and then you switch to stealing, you need to account for the time to get to the stealing city, too. Even coming from nearby intercessors to shard takes a few minutes, which matters. If I go to leth or crossing I move quickly (over 1k climb) through undergondola, but this takes time, too.
just some things to consider, sir. hope it helps. look forward to hearing your thoughts.
4.5 plats in 10 minutes = 648 plats a day
i get more plats than this a day. and i only spend about 2/3 of my time in combat. i forage, climb, etc.
Your rate is lower than my plat intake rate while hunting. And that's assuming you can keep up your 4.5 plats / 10 minutes pace continuously. Which you can't because of the stealing timer.
Also, did you factor in transportation time? If you train all your skills in one area (hunting ground) and then you switch to stealing, you need to account for the time to get to the stealing city, too. Even coming from nearby intercessors to shard takes a few minutes, which matters. If I go to leth or crossing I move quickly (over 1k climb) through undergondola, but this takes time, too.
just some things to consider, sir. hope it helps. look forward to hearing your thoughts.
>disagree. our old mech lore req. was brutal. new lore req is much easier.
This. But I don't find that much Mech all that much of a problem. But I train Mech religiously on all my characters. Braiding can take you to 500 anywhere.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
This. But I don't find that much Mech all that much of a problem. But I train Mech religiously on all my characters. Braiding can take you to 500 anywhere.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
>some math
I'm not number crunching here, just training a skill that I like.
Really I just meant that I don't have any difficulty locking it and it gives me more than nothing in return.
Often I do a run when I need to get from point a to point b anyway, so its not too much added travel time.
[Script finished (In 339 seconds): steal.cmd]
Faster than I give myself credit for I guess.
: )
>you go from 0/34 to 34/34 in 339 seconds?
Yes I do. Now you've got me worried its too fast and its gonna get nerfed or something, lol.
>how much stealing and where stealing from?
Lets just say... a significant amount over the new 150th req... but not nearly as impressive as your 1k climbing.
and where from? Gosh I feel like I should keep some secrets, that's half the fun!
________
Ok back to the new req discussion?
>.>
<.<
I wonder what my lores are, Appraisal, Mech, Humming right now, so that becomes Appraisal, Crafting skill, Scholarship?
This concerns me because there really aren't too many other options, scholarship is a hard skill for me and I don't think people should have to craft to circle.
So does that leave just performance? Well I thought that was a goal of the changes so a thief wouldn't need to play a bard.
I'm probably just missing something. But I see this being a reoccurring concern in more than one of the guild folders.
>>I'm probably just missing something. But I see this being a reoccurring concern in more than one of the guild folders.
Similarly recurring is that everybody's forgetting that Tactics is a new lore skill too.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Similarly recurring is that everybody's forgetting that Tactics is a new lore skill too.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
>Similarly recurring is that everybody's forgetting that Tactics is a new lore skill too.
Oh I think I keep thinking that tactics doesn't count towards Nth reqs.
But re-reading your info for everyone post I guess it isn't listed there as restricted from Nth reqs.
But again, that leaves me with Appraisal, Tactics and .... either a teaching / scholarship or a crafting skill?
I'd actually like to train scholarship and teaching, I just seem to be bad at getting/keeping them moving.
>>Similarly recurring is that everybody's forgetting that Tactics is a new lore skill too.
I did try to hint that a list of skills and their categories would be nice, maybe that would help as a reminder to what skills we have available to get our reqs from.
And sorry, you're probably not having a very fun day, but I do appreciate the work and still cannot wait for all the upcoming changes! Wooty Woot Woot!
>>And sorry, you're probably not having a very fun day, but I do appreciate the work and still cannot wait for all the upcoming changes!
I didn't mean my comment to come off snarky - It was more tongue in cheek. I'm actually surprised at just how calmly people are taking most of these changes :-D
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
I didn't mean my comment to come off snarky - It was more tongue in cheek. I'm actually surprised at just how calmly people are taking most of these changes :-D
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
>Lets just say... a significant amount over the new 150th req... but not nearly as impressive as your 1k climbing.
Yeah the 150th req is only 520. Extrapolate the reqs out the 300th circle. This is generally what I look at. This puts theivery at 1120 which still isn't horrendous, but that's a fair bit if you hate the skill like I do.
>and where from? Gosh I feel like I should keep some secrets, that's half the fun!
OK, you're not very helpful. Fine. If you're in Aesry or muspari or something that's great...but realize you're very far from any other good training.
Really the only high huntnig in game is DP spire, and dillos. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like no good training near these areas. I spent years on mriss before capping dillos. No stealing there.
...and you never addressed my first argument. What is the point of stealing? You can make more hunting. And you learn more skills. And you get better at killing people.
Yeah the 150th req is only 520. Extrapolate the reqs out the 300th circle. This is generally what I look at. This puts theivery at 1120 which still isn't horrendous, but that's a fair bit if you hate the skill like I do.
>and where from? Gosh I feel like I should keep some secrets, that's half the fun!
OK, you're not very helpful. Fine. If you're in Aesry or muspari or something that's great...but realize you're very far from any other good training.
Really the only high huntnig in game is DP spire, and dillos. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like no good training near these areas. I spent years on mriss before capping dillos. No stealing there.
...and you never addressed my first argument. What is the point of stealing? You can make more hunting. And you learn more skills. And you get better at killing people.
Socharis,
Just to repeat:
(1)
could stealth and thievery swap?
(2)
Does nth survival mean any survival, not the restricted list we currently choose form? It seems so, but I'd like confirmation.
(3)
Any plans to make stealing not worthless? It makes less money than just hunting. What is the upside to training this skill?
Just to repeat:
(1)
could stealth and thievery swap?
(2)
Does nth survival mean any survival, not the restricted list we currently choose form? It seems so, but I'd like confirmation.
(3)
Any plans to make stealing not worthless? It makes less money than just hunting. What is the upside to training this skill?
<<I did try to hint that a list of skills and their categories would be nice, maybe that would help as a reminder to what skills we have available to get our reqs from.>>
Skill List as I've gotten from postings.
Armor #7
Weapons #19
Supernatural #11
Survivals #12
Lores #12
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Skill List as I've gotten from postings.
Armor #7
| Light Armor |
| Chain Armor |
| Brigandine |
| Plate Armor |
| Defending |
| Shield Usage |
| *Endurance |
Weapons #19
| Small Edged |
| Two-handed Edged |
| Large Edged |
| Small Blunt |
| Two-handed Blunt |
| Large Blunt |
| Slings |
| Bows |
| Crossbows |
| Staves |
| Polearms |
| Melee Mastery |
| Missile Mastery |
| Parry Ability |
| Light Thrown |
| Heavy Thrown |
| Brawling |
| Offhand Weapon |
| *Expertise |
Supernatural #11
| Attunement |
| Augmentation |
| Debilitation |
| Utility |
| Warding |
| Sorcery |
| Arcana |
| Target Magic |
| *Summoning (was Elementalism) |
| *Theurgy |
| *Astrology |
Survivals #12
| Athletics |
| Stealth |
| Locksmithing |
| Outdoorsmanship |
| Thievery |
| Evasion |
| Perception |
| First Aid |
| Skinning |
| Backstab |
| *Scouting |
| *Thanatology |
Lores #12
| Scholarship |
| Tactics |
| Performing |
| Engineering |
| Outfitting |
| Enchanting |
| Blacksmithing |
| Alchemy |
| Appraisal |
| *Bardic Lore |
| *Empathy |
| *Trading |
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
>Yeah the 150th req is only 520. Extrapolate the reqs out the 300th circle. This is generally what I look at. This puts theivery at 1120 which still isn't horrendous, but that's a fair bit if you hate the skill like I do.
Why do you extrapolate to 300? I'm curious as to that specific point.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
Why do you extrapolate to 300? I'm curious as to that specific point.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
one more for socharis:
Why are thief reqs harder than ranger? Ignoring magic, which currently isn't fair comparison. See my previous post in this thread for more details.
>Why do you extrapolate to 300? I'm curious as to that specific point.
better gauge for my thief. you probably calculated the new reqs based on what circle your character is, right? I've been gunning for 300th based on old reqs (150th reqs extrapolated) for a bit. This is what I know best, and thus what I base stuff on.
Why are thief reqs harder than ranger? Ignoring magic, which currently isn't fair comparison. See my previous post in this thread for more details.
>Why do you extrapolate to 300? I'm curious as to that specific point.
better gauge for my thief. you probably calculated the new reqs based on what circle your character is, right? I've been gunning for 300th based on old reqs (150th reqs extrapolated) for a bit. This is what I know best, and thus what I base stuff on.
>>Why are thief reqs harder than ranger? Ignoring magic, which currently isn't fair comparison.
What makes you think they're harder?
Total required skills broken up in skillsets for 101-150:
Not counting magic, thieves from 101-150 need 67 ranks per circle, while rangers need 71.
Both of your signature skills have soft requirements.
Both of your signature skills have the same requirements per circle.
The 1st survival for Thieves is 40 higher than Rangers (770 vs 740).
The 8th survival for Thieves is 100 lower than Rangers (370 vs 470).
Neither of you can compare to Necromancer requirements. :P
What makes you think they're harder?
Total required skills broken up in skillsets for 101-150:
| skillset | ranger | thief |
| lore | 5 | 10 |
| survivals | 40 | 42 |
| magic | 9 | n/a |
| weapons | 14 | 12 |
| armor | 12 | 3 |
Not counting magic, thieves from 101-150 need 67 ranks per circle, while rangers need 71.
Both of your signature skills have soft requirements.
Both of your signature skills have the same requirements per circle.
The 1st survival for Thieves is 40 higher than Rangers (770 vs 740).
The 8th survival for Thieves is 100 lower than Rangers (370 vs 470).
Neither of you can compare to Necromancer requirements. :P
What's 'tactics' all about? And what survivals will count towards nth requirements since swimming never has, stealing will be removed from it and lockpicking/disarm are getting merged?
or if someone has a link to the post where it's all explained...finding things on the forums is almost masochistic
or if someone has a link to the post where it's all explained...finding things on the forums is almost masochistic
>>What's 'tactics' all about?
Non-damaging combat maneuvers (like circling, bobbing, weaving, etc) and other combat actions will fall under this.
>>And what survivals will count towards nth requirements since swimming never has, stealing will be removed from it and lockpicking/disarm are getting merged?
The GMs initial post covers this ( http://elanthipedia.com/w/index.php/Post:Thief_Circle_Requirements_-_03/16/2012_-_01:16 )
Thievery (formerly stealing) is a soft req. It counts toward your nth requirements. Swimming also counts now. In fact, every survival you have counts now, including backstabbing, your signature skill. You actually have no skill restrictions at all anymore.
Non-damaging combat maneuvers (like circling, bobbing, weaving, etc) and other combat actions will fall under this.
>>And what survivals will count towards nth requirements since swimming never has, stealing will be removed from it and lockpicking/disarm are getting merged?
The GMs initial post covers this ( http://elanthipedia.com/w/index.php/Post:Thief_Circle_Requirements_-_03/16/2012_-_01:16 )
Thievery (formerly stealing) is a soft req. It counts toward your nth requirements. Swimming also counts now. In fact, every survival you have counts now, including backstabbing, your signature skill. You actually have no skill restrictions at all anymore.
>>could stealth and thievery swap?
Possibly. There's a compelling argument.
>>Does nth survival mean any survival, not the restricted list we currently choose form? It seems so, but I'd like confirmation.
Any old restrictions are no longer in place. Survival includes everything in the survival skillset, including backstab.
>>Any plans to make stealing not worthless? It makes less money than just hunting. What is the upside to training this skill?
To be honest updating stealing beyond where it is now isn't something in the scope of the X3 release. After all of that craziness is settled down, we're going to look at all of the skills and see what they need to be reasonable, viable skills.
>>Why are thief reqs harder than ranger? Ignoring magic, which currently isn't fair comparison. See my previous post in this thread for more details.
Because while necromancers are the new 'hardmode' guild, thieves should still be a more challenging guild than the public-friendly professional guilds. I would feel dirty if I let thieves fall into complete normality, even if joining the guild isn't as hard as it used to be.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Possibly. There's a compelling argument.
>>Does nth survival mean any survival, not the restricted list we currently choose form? It seems so, but I'd like confirmation.
Any old restrictions are no longer in place. Survival includes everything in the survival skillset, including backstab.
>>Any plans to make stealing not worthless? It makes less money than just hunting. What is the upside to training this skill?
To be honest updating stealing beyond where it is now isn't something in the scope of the X3 release. After all of that craziness is settled down, we're going to look at all of the skills and see what they need to be reasonable, viable skills.
>>Why are thief reqs harder than ranger? Ignoring magic, which currently isn't fair comparison. See my previous post in this thread for more details.
Because while necromancers are the new 'hardmode' guild, thieves should still be a more challenging guild than the public-friendly professional guilds. I would feel dirty if I let thieves fall into complete normality, even if joining the guild isn't as hard as it used to be.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
I think the biggest argument for Stealth/Thievery swap is that Stealth is useful. Stealing is a pointless skill at the moment, even moreso since it became de rigeur to make it nigh on impossible to steal anything of any value, be that fests (I am talking shops here - the 392AV Holy fest was stealable, but none since) or from players (tied gem pouches that can be put into but not taken out of, 300 coin money belts, unable to steal from hands etc etc.)
If critter stealing were to be implemented I could see Thievery being at least trainable (it isn't very trainable at the moment beyond certain areas) and possibly useful.
If critter stealing were to be implemented I could see Thievery being at least trainable (it isn't very trainable at the moment beyond certain areas) and possibly useful.
>>I think the biggest argument for Stealth/Thievery swap is that Stealth is useful. Stealing is a pointless skill at the moment
I feel like the at the moment part is a big thing to stress with this. Not that I'm aware of any GM really tackling adding more "stuff" to do with the skill, but it's my understanding that it was renamed as Thievery to open it up to doing more than just stealing. Acts of deception might fall under thievery, or cheating at cards, or counterfeiting, etc.
I feel like the at the moment part is a big thing to stress with this. Not that I'm aware of any GM really tackling adding more "stuff" to do with the skill, but it's my understanding that it was renamed as Thievery to open it up to doing more than just stealing. Acts of deception might fall under thievery, or cheating at cards, or counterfeiting, etc.
>better gauge for my thief. you probably calculated the new reqs based on what circle your character is, right? I've been gunning for 300th based on old reqs (150th reqs extrapolated) for a bit. This is what I know best, and thus what I base stuff on.
Truth be told I didn't calculate it for any of my characters. I'm not that concerned.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
Truth be told I didn't calculate it for any of my characters. I'm not that concerned.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
>>PB
That's great and all, but how long till that happens? Considering there is no one to work on the Thieves guild right now, and the developers seeing us as "ok" for the moment, I don't see thievery being fleshed out in the near future.
With several skill's reqs being left out of several guilds for now because of the skills lack of development, I don't see why it's too much asking for the Stealth and Thievery reqs to be swapped since Stealth is much more useful, and easier to train at the moment. If later down the road Thievery becomes much easier to train and more useful then I wouldn't be against it's hard req being raised.
The precedent has been set for skills lacking in development to be left out or the reqs to be lessened, we're just asking for consideration for our's.
That's great and all, but how long till that happens? Considering there is no one to work on the Thieves guild right now, and the developers seeing us as "ok" for the moment, I don't see thievery being fleshed out in the near future.
With several skill's reqs being left out of several guilds for now because of the skills lack of development, I don't see why it's too much asking for the Stealth and Thievery reqs to be swapped since Stealth is much more useful, and easier to train at the moment. If later down the road Thievery becomes much easier to train and more useful then I wouldn't be against it's hard req being raised.
The precedent has been set for skills lacking in development to be left out or the reqs to be lessened, we're just asking for consideration for our's.
