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My two cents.
I like backstab how it is since I probably contributed to the cries of OP from other guilds with how I use it. I've two-hit killed characters above my level with it in 3.1. It works great if you know how to use it.
Ambushes on the other hand need some help. The skill/stat checks seem fine to me as they really haven't caused me any problems. The effects and duration of those effects needs some help IMO. Stun is the biggest offender since the stun wears off and the target is standing before you are out of RT, and sleep seems to suck as a debuff in 3.1. I haven't played with new choke though, but I think the new effect added to it is good and looking forward to playing with it. I can't remember if slash can cause damage, if it can nevermind, if not it would fill out the ability very well.
All in all I am happy where Thieves are at in 3.1. I really wish we had a more reliable stunner and our strength buff back. I'll take what I can get though.
P.S. I really like our AoE khris. Please don't get rid of them because others can't find a use for them.
>Please do tell what use you have for prowess and guile that actually make use of debuffing multiple enemies at once.
Aside from the exp reward reasons... If you kill the target you are facing, there is no need to worry about waiting for the ability to pulse on the next target since its already debuffed. Sure its not much, but I am rather fond of the AoE effect and would rather keep it then not.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Aside from the exp reward reasons... If you kill the target you are facing, there is no need to worry about waiting for the ability to pulse on the next target since its already debuffed. Sure its not much, but I am rather fond of the AoE effect and would rather keep it then not.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
>Please do tell what use you have for prowess and guile that actually make use of debuffing multiple enemies at once.
I use them both all the time when I'm hunting, I like being able to take the edge off of everything that's attacking me, just in case I wind up getting smacked or left off balance from a bad swing and I'm standing there with four bad guys at melee.
Can't bards choose to sing loud or soft? What if we were able to choose (with enough skill, even), whether we were trying to use it on anything in the area or just the thing we're facing?
> Aside from the exp reward reasons... If you kill the target you are facing, there is no need to worry about waiting for the ability to pulse on the next target since its already debuffed. Sure its not much, but I am rather fond of the AoE effect and would rather keep it then not.
Not wanting to wait the 1 second required to apply the debuff after you kill a monster is not a valid reason for keeping the khris AoE and majorly expensive, that is just impatience on your part.
> I use them both all the time when I'm hunting, I like being able to take the edge off of everything that's attacking me, just in case I wind up getting smacked or left off balance from a bad swing and I'm standing there with four bad guys at melee.
You are aware both prowess and guile reduce enemy defense, right? They won't give you any sort of edge in survival.
Not wanting to wait the 1 second required to apply the debuff after you kill a monster is not a valid reason for keeping the khris AoE and majorly expensive, that is just impatience on your part.
> I use them both all the time when I'm hunting, I like being able to take the edge off of everything that's attacking me, just in case I wind up getting smacked or left off balance from a bad swing and I'm standing there with four bad guys at melee.
You are aware both prowess and guile reduce enemy defense, right? They won't give you any sort of edge in survival.
>that is just impatience on your part.
Hah, its clearly a convenience that is not strictly needed, but I still like it. Ambush Screen is Finesse vs Reflex and the reflex contest uses Reflex, which is debuffed via Prowess. So there is one clear advantage. That said I guess I am not really sure why the AoE effect bothers you so much, I dont honestly think turning it into a single target debuff is going to win us anything in exchange.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Hah, its clearly a convenience that is not strictly needed, but I still like it. Ambush Screen is Finesse vs Reflex and the reflex contest uses Reflex, which is debuffed via Prowess. So there is one clear advantage. That said I guess I am not really sure why the AoE effect bothers you so much, I dont honestly think turning it into a single target debuff is going to win us anything in exchange.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Not all combat is PvP. I'm sure even you get multiple opponents on you while you train, even at your level. We're not all at the top tier of critters though, so debuffing everything advancing has it's advantages while hunting or while in invasions, and can be the difference in dying or surviving. Everything might be too easy for you to need AoE effects but it is beneficial for most of us.
A compromise I would go for is turn prowess into single target debuff and make it much easier to use for little ones and leave guile alone. AoE is useful even if not for you.
A compromise I would go for is turn prowess into single target debuff and make it much easier to use for little ones and leave guile alone. AoE is useful even if not for you.
<<That said I guess I am not really sure why the AoE effect bothers you so much, I dont honestly think turning it into a single target debuff is going to win us anything in exchange.
In another thread requesting those two abilities not give away their debuff via messaging I believe it was mentioned by a GM that they are not secret about their debuff because of their AoE status. Changing them to single target would possibly mitigate that aspect.
I still think they should stay AoE, since all that changing it to single target to avoid messaging would do is slightly alter your first strike in a PvP situation. Not worth the trade-off, especially for someone who never PvPs.
In another thread requesting those two abilities not give away their debuff via messaging I believe it was mentioned by a GM that they are not secret about their debuff because of their AoE status. Changing them to single target would possibly mitigate that aspect.
I still think they should stay AoE, since all that changing it to single target to avoid messaging would do is slightly alter your first strike in a PvP situation. Not worth the trade-off, especially for someone who never PvPs.
>In another thread requesting those two abilities not give away their debuff via messaging I believe it was mentioned by a GM that they are not secret about their debuff because of their AoE status. Changing them to single target would possibly mitigate that aspect.
I understand that concern, but I dont think removing the AoE status will help much there. Unless it has recently changed my understanding is that both Prowess and Guile only message on targets that 1) you are facing or 2) are facing you. I dont expect Prowess or Guile to be silent vs those being affected.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I understand that concern, but I dont think removing the AoE status will help much there. Unless it has recently changed my understanding is that both Prowess and Guile only message on targets that 1) you are facing or 2) are facing you. I dont expect Prowess or Guile to be silent vs those being affected.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
> Hah, its clearly a convenience that is not strictly needed, but I still like it. Ambush Screen is Finesse vs Reflex and the reflex contest uses Reflex, which is debuffed via Prowess. So there is one clear advantage. That said I guess I am not really sure why the AoE effect bothers you so much, I dont honestly think turning it into a single target debuff is going to win us anything in exchange.
Setting up for ambush screen is a valid use of Prowess, but the overall benefit is still too expensive, combining prowess and ambush screen is its only real use. I say we meet in the middle and make Guile single target and leave prowess AoE.
> Not worth the trade-off, especially for someone who never PvPs.
The main tradeoff would be making the khri cheaper as a single target khri, it would become viable for use without sacrificing 2 normal khri to maintain it.
> We're not all at the top tier of critters though, so debuffing everything advancing has it's advantages while hunting or while in invasions, and can be the difference in dying or surviving
The debuffs you speak of specifically reduce enemy defense, which will not keep you alive any better since you can only attack 1 monster at a time. What good is an ability that only has use in an invasion setting on the monsters who choose to engage you, assuming there are others around to beat up your monsters for you.
Setting up for ambush screen is a valid use of Prowess, but the overall benefit is still too expensive, combining prowess and ambush screen is its only real use. I say we meet in the middle and make Guile single target and leave prowess AoE.
> Not worth the trade-off, especially for someone who never PvPs.
The main tradeoff would be making the khri cheaper as a single target khri, it would become viable for use without sacrificing 2 normal khri to maintain it.
> We're not all at the top tier of critters though, so debuffing everything advancing has it's advantages while hunting or while in invasions, and can be the difference in dying or surviving
The debuffs you speak of specifically reduce enemy defense, which will not keep you alive any better since you can only attack 1 monster at a time. What good is an ability that only has use in an invasion setting on the monsters who choose to engage you, assuming there are others around to beat up your monsters for you.
>The main tradeoff would be making the khri cheaper as a single target khri, it would become viable for use without sacrificing 2 normal khri to maintain it.
I will admit I havent done a huge cost per pulse study on all our abilities yet, with casual observation I havent noticed a huge drain on concentration from either of these. Do Prowess and Guile really cost much more then our buffs to keep running? I will do some tests and see where everything falls.
> What good is an ability that only has use in an invasion setting on the monsters who choose to engage you, assuming there are others around to beat up your monsters for you.
Forward compatibility is also something to keep in mind. We may not have many AoE attacks right now but we may in the future, IIRC Sweep was meant to be a Melee AoE attack at one point.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I will admit I havent done a huge cost per pulse study on all our abilities yet, with casual observation I havent noticed a huge drain on concentration from either of these. Do Prowess and Guile really cost much more then our buffs to keep running? I will do some tests and see where everything falls.
> What good is an ability that only has use in an invasion setting on the monsters who choose to engage you, assuming there are others around to beat up your monsters for you.
Forward compatibility is also something to keep in mind. We may not have many AoE attacks right now but we may in the future, IIRC Sweep was meant to be a Melee AoE attack at one point.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Prowess debuffs the Tactics skill in PvP, since creatures don't have a tactics skill it debuffs a more general offensive ability instead.
Guile could probably benefit from affecting something else offensive, but I'm not likely to make any more changes to the system while people are still getting a feel for how everything works together.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Guile could probably benefit from affecting something else offensive, but I'm not likely to make any more changes to the system while people are still getting a feel for how everything works together.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
> Prowess debuffs the Tactics skill in PvP, since creatures don't have a tactics skill it debuffs a more general offensive ability instead.
This makes prowess much more useful for hunting and as an aoe debuff, everything else included. Somewhat useful.
Guile i still want to push for a single target debuff, i think it would work better that way all around.
This makes prowess much more useful for hunting and as an aoe debuff, everything else included. Somewhat useful.
Guile i still want to push for a single target debuff, i think it would work better that way all around.
> Do Prowess and Guile really cost much more then our buffs to keep running?
With 200 debil, guile now lasts me 2 minutes, but takes 10% of my concentration to turn it on each time. 10% every two minutes, plus the drain + my two always-on combat khri, means it's unsustainable. Sometimes I turn it on when I'm having a particularly hard time hitting with my lowest weapon; it's very nice for that. But, functionally, I only want it for a single-target purpose. The cost to make it AoE is not worth it for me.
Ideally we'd have a choice, like magic users with cast vs. cast area. But that might take more coding. In that case, I support the "AoE Prowess, Single-Target Guile" group.
With 200 debil, guile now lasts me 2 minutes, but takes 10% of my concentration to turn it on each time. 10% every two minutes, plus the drain + my two always-on combat khri, means it's unsustainable. Sometimes I turn it on when I'm having a particularly hard time hitting with my lowest weapon; it's very nice for that. But, functionally, I only want it for a single-target purpose. The cost to make it AoE is not worth it for me.
Ideally we'd have a choice, like magic users with cast vs. cast area. But that might take more coding. In that case, I support the "AoE Prowess, Single-Target Guile" group.
>Guile i still want to push for a single target debuff, i think it would work better that way all around.
Frankly I think thieves have enough single target abilities. Having a whopping 2 AoE debuffs (ok, 3, if you count screen) isn't a big deal. If you MUST have a single target version of something, why not just suggest a new ability to do that, rather than trying to get an existing one hammered down?
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
Frankly I think thieves have enough single target abilities. Having a whopping 2 AoE debuffs (ok, 3, if you count screen) isn't a big deal. If you MUST have a single target version of something, why not just suggest a new ability to do that, rather than trying to get an existing one hammered down?
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
>With 200 debil, guile now lasts me 2 minutes, but takes 10% of my concentration to turn it on each time.
Decided to power through the list and determine Start and Sustain costs.
My skills and Concentration score:
258 Concentration
Inner Magic 305
Augment 255
Utility 195
Debility 192
First value is the Start cost and Sustain cost follows, all khri cost 4 times the sustain cost.
Darken (8\2)
|-- Dampen (12\3)
| |-- Shadowstep (16\4)
| |-- Sensing (12\3)
|
|-- Strike (12\3)
|
|-- Silence (12\3)
|-- Vanish (30)
Hasten (8\2)
|-- Safe (12\3)
|
|-- Avoidance (12\3)
| |-- Flight (16\4)
| |-- Elusion (16\4)
| |-- Liberation (16\4)
|
|-- Plunder (16\4)
|-- Guile (20\5)
Focus (8\2)
|-- Sight (12\3)
|
|-- Prowess (16\4)
| |-- Steady (16\4)
| |-- Eliminate (35)
|
|-- Calm (25)
|-- Serenity (16\4)
|-- Sagacity (20\5)
So listed from highest cost to lowest (and ignoring Special Khri)
Sagacity, Guile
Serenity, Steady, Prowess, Plunder, Liberation, Elusion, Flight, Shadowstep
Sight, Avoidance, Safe, Silence, Strike, Sensing, Dampen
Darken, Hasten, Focus
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Decided to power through the list and determine Start and Sustain costs.
My skills and Concentration score:
258 Concentration
Inner Magic 305
Augment 255
Utility 195
Debility 192
First value is the Start cost and Sustain cost follows, all khri cost 4 times the sustain cost.
Darken (8\2)
|-- Dampen (12\3)
| |-- Shadowstep (16\4)
| |-- Sensing (12\3)
|
|-- Strike (12\3)
|
|-- Silence (12\3)
|-- Vanish (30)
Hasten (8\2)
|-- Safe (12\3)
|
|-- Avoidance (12\3)
| |-- Flight (16\4)
| |-- Elusion (16\4)
| |-- Liberation (16\4)
|
|-- Plunder (16\4)
|-- Guile (20\5)
Focus (8\2)
|-- Sight (12\3)
|
|-- Prowess (16\4)
| |-- Steady (16\4)
| |-- Eliminate (35)
|
|-- Calm (25)
|-- Serenity (16\4)
|-- Sagacity (20\5)
So listed from highest cost to lowest (and ignoring Special Khri)
Sagacity, Guile
Serenity, Steady, Prowess, Plunder, Liberation, Elusion, Flight, Shadowstep
Sight, Avoidance, Safe, Silence, Strike, Sensing, Dampen
Darken, Hasten, Focus
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
<<With 200 debil, guile now lasts me 2 minutes, but takes 10% of my concentration to turn it on each time.>>
My recent combat juicing I use a Mental Focus (+int) spell plus Plunder (+disc) to push me to 321 concentration. I then run Strike, Avoidance and Elusions with Prowess in combat. I'm at 328 debil (I used exp switch to make it my top) so Prowess lasts about 5 min-ish. With that though it is much easier to train debilitation with a class than in combat. Magic from classes for a thief is actually really easy to ML.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
My recent combat juicing I use a Mental Focus (+int) spell plus Plunder (+disc) to push me to 321 concentration. I then run Strike, Avoidance and Elusions with Prowess in combat. I'm at 328 debil (I used exp switch to make it my top) so Prowess lasts about 5 min-ish. With that though it is much easier to train debilitation with a class than in combat. Magic from classes for a thief is actually really easy to ML.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
>>Guile i still want to push for a single target debuff, i think it would work better that way all around.
Mate im bettin your motivation for this is because your looking at this from the point of view that you want to be able to get the biggest shot on any person who plays DR. Thinking how it would be useful during PvP and sneaking up on the target, backstabbing them, hopefully a 1 shotter, then running off.
I really hope your not lobbying for a khri that only has 1 specific purpose, that would feed your desire to be absolute number 1 PvPer.
Rifkinn
<< My recent combat juicing I use a Mental Focus (+int) spell plus Plunder (+disc) to push me to 321 concentration.
Not sure if juicing is still optimal in 3.1. As far as i understand, the only benefit of boosting the concentration pool is to just marginally delay the inevitable total loss of your concentration. If this is the case, technically you're just putting more strain on your concentration pool over long term. Probably does more harm than good.
I don't know, i still find the best way to train debil is ambushes but i'm glad people are finding different ways.
Not sure if juicing is still optimal in 3.1. As far as i understand, the only benefit of boosting the concentration pool is to just marginally delay the inevitable total loss of your concentration. If this is the case, technically you're just putting more strain on your concentration pool over long term. Probably does more harm than good.
I don't know, i still find the best way to train debil is ambushes but i'm glad people are finding different ways.
At the highest end of stats and potency for Plunder, you might be able to recoup the concentration cost if you are sitting, but probably not ever while standing. Plunder still ends up discounting itself a little regardless, so it'll always be a good khri to use for training considerations, which I find fitting since sitting around thinking about how best to steal things is a good regime for any healthy mind.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
> I really hope your not lobbying for a khri that only has 1 specific purpose, that would feed your desire to be absolute number 1 PvPer.
Im lobbying to have guile reduced to a debuff just like it is, but single target and lower tier (thus cheaper). This would not change the mechanics of it, the debuff would still be sustained and constant on the target like now, just not AoE for no reason. If you look at the tier and cost of Guile, you can see it is 2-2.5x more expensive than standard khri. I don't feel it currently merits the excessive cost just because its an aoe debuff, dropping it to a cost of 3 upkeep and making it target what you are facing would give it much more utility.
Im lobbying to have guile reduced to a debuff just like it is, but single target and lower tier (thus cheaper). This would not change the mechanics of it, the debuff would still be sustained and constant on the target like now, just not AoE for no reason. If you look at the tier and cost of Guile, you can see it is 2-2.5x more expensive than standard khri. I don't feel it currently merits the excessive cost just because its an aoe debuff, dropping it to a cost of 3 upkeep and making it target what you are facing would give it much more utility.
You can lobby all you want, what you're asking for won't happen. If by some crazy stretch I did want Guile to be single target, it would have a one-shot cost more in-line with Eliminate, and a cooldown per use like the other single shot khri have. So, if you really want to debate the pros and cons of that particular setup, you'd at least be on the right page with how the abilities operate.
>>you can see it is 2-2.5x more expensive than standard khri.
The highest tier khri are intended to be more costly than the lowest tier khri.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
>>you can see it is 2-2.5x more expensive than standard khri.
The highest tier khri are intended to be more costly than the lowest tier khri.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
> If by some crazy stretch I did want Guile to be single target, it would have a one-shot cost more in-line with Eliminate, and a cooldown per use like the other single shot khri have.
So Guile would have to be rewritten to be more like eliminate, just to make it effect 1 monster instead of all of them, even if it has the exact same effect on that one monster? Sounds kind of fishy to me.
> The highest tier khri are intended to be more costly than the lowest tier khri.
This is where the problem lies, for the benefit it provides i do not consider it worthy of being a highest tier khri, it is overly expensive for what it provides. Shadowstep is the same way, too expensive for its limited use.
So Guile would have to be rewritten to be more like eliminate, just to make it effect 1 monster instead of all of them, even if it has the exact same effect on that one monster? Sounds kind of fishy to me.
> The highest tier khri are intended to be more costly than the lowest tier khri.
This is where the problem lies, for the benefit it provides i do not consider it worthy of being a highest tier khri, it is overly expensive for what it provides. Shadowstep is the same way, too expensive for its limited use.
>>Sounds kind of fishy to me.
So you want an internalized semi-magic ability that somehow affects someone else's evasion constantly, but only the others you are facing, but also not noticeable to anyone else and you want it to be just as expensive as a second tier ability. Ok, I've got that down on the wishlist. Move on.
>>This is where the problem lies
For me the problem lies with a constant influx of requests to beef up the ability output of Thieves, while every change I've made recently to meet this demand gets either no feedback, feedback that is wrought with examples from before the changes, or massive hyperbole.
I'm going to try and be clear here once again. I think I should add something to Guile, or make some sort of change with it. I am not going to do it until I actually get real feedback regarding the more recent changes to other parts of the whole picture.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
So you want an internalized semi-magic ability that somehow affects someone else's evasion constantly, but only the others you are facing, but also not noticeable to anyone else and you want it to be just as expensive as a second tier ability. Ok, I've got that down on the wishlist. Move on.
>>This is where the problem lies
For me the problem lies with a constant influx of requests to beef up the ability output of Thieves, while every change I've made recently to meet this demand gets either no feedback, feedback that is wrought with examples from before the changes, or massive hyperbole.
I'm going to try and be clear here once again. I think I should add something to Guile, or make some sort of change with it. I am not going to do it until I actually get real feedback regarding the more recent changes to other parts of the whole picture.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
> I am not going to do it until I actually get real feedback regarding the more recent changes to other parts of the whole picture.
To keep this going, what sort of feedback and/or what format are you looking for Ricinus? Id be happy to run some tests and generate data if it can help improve our abilities and/or increase my understanding of how our Khri work.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
To keep this going, what sort of feedback and/or what format are you looking for Ricinus? Id be happy to run some tests and generate data if it can help improve our abilities and/or increase my understanding of how our Khri work.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
> So you want an internalized semi-magic ability that somehow affects someone else's evasion constantly, but only the others you are facing, but also not noticeable to anyone else and you want it to be just as expensive as a second tier ability. Ok, I've got that down on the wishlist. Move on.
I did not include the part about not being noticeable FROM STEALTH this time, back then i just wanted it to apply shortly before i broke stealth instead of pulsing nonstop and screaming, "HERE I COME!!!" at them. My lobby was just to make it effect 1 monster and be a second tier ability, nothing more.
> For me the problem lies with a constant influx of requests to beef up the ability output of Thieves, while every change I've made recently to meet this demand gets either no feedback, feedback that is wrought with examples from before the changes, or massive hyperbole.
The reason for this is because the general consensus between experienced players is that the feedback we send to any GM is used to blow your nose with before discarding it. So you get stuck with overly enthusiastic noob testers who have no real experience or ability to help you.
> I'm going to try and be clear here once again. I think I should add something to Guile, or make some sort of change with it. I am not going to do it until I actually get real feedback regarding the more recent changes to other parts of the whole picture.
I look forward to seeing what changes are made. Thank you for listening to me rant.
I did not include the part about not being noticeable FROM STEALTH this time, back then i just wanted it to apply shortly before i broke stealth instead of pulsing nonstop and screaming, "HERE I COME!!!" at them. My lobby was just to make it effect 1 monster and be a second tier ability, nothing more.
> For me the problem lies with a constant influx of requests to beef up the ability output of Thieves, while every change I've made recently to meet this demand gets either no feedback, feedback that is wrought with examples from before the changes, or massive hyperbole.
The reason for this is because the general consensus between experienced players is that the feedback we send to any GM is used to blow your nose with before discarding it. So you get stuck with overly enthusiastic noob testers who have no real experience or ability to help you.
> I'm going to try and be clear here once again. I think I should add something to Guile, or make some sort of change with it. I am not going to do it until I actually get real feedback regarding the more recent changes to other parts of the whole picture.
I look forward to seeing what changes are made. Thank you for listening to me rant.
>>what sort of feedback and/or what format are you looking for Ricinus?
The most recent stuff that was changed was a bug fix to how debilitation ranks affect the SvS contest for ambushes. I expected to see most people start getting on average longer duration for ambush effects like stun, perception debuff, stamina debuff etc. There was also the change to Ambush stun to only do stuns rather than doing unconscious at the high end. It would be good to know if that's been helpful at all. Finally, Ambush choke had an added effect of fatigue loss, does this addition make it at all viable for general use.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
The most recent stuff that was changed was a bug fix to how debilitation ranks affect the SvS contest for ambushes. I expected to see most people start getting on average longer duration for ambush effects like stun, perception debuff, stamina debuff etc. There was also the change to Ambush stun to only do stuns rather than doing unconscious at the high end. It would be good to know if that's been helpful at all. Finally, Ambush choke had an added effect of fatigue loss, does this addition make it at all viable for general use.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Just did some quick testing/messing around in young wyverns and with a character I outclass pretty bad.
Stun's length is much better now, and is much more useful. The high-end success on the ambushes are pretty potent (at least on characters with low stats: <30). The SvS contests seem pretty fair in PvE at least, haven't tried against a character with comparable stats yet though. I like the addition to choke. Took 50% fatigue off on a character with 30 stamina, definitely useful in a melee fight, and has some synergy with other ambushes.
Your recent changes make ambushes much more useful for me. Thanks for the work Ricinus.
Some suggestions that came to mind while looking over our ambushes: Add a minor discipline debuff onto clout, it would add some bite to it plus help to land other ambushes. Since we aren't getting the strength buff back, how about a new khri/ambush/ability that debuffs the targets strength? Wouldn't be as useful as a buff would be, but would still help in the Power vs. Fortitude contest.
Stun's length is much better now, and is much more useful. The high-end success on the ambushes are pretty potent (at least on characters with low stats: <30). The SvS contests seem pretty fair in PvE at least, haven't tried against a character with comparable stats yet though. I like the addition to choke. Took 50% fatigue off on a character with 30 stamina, definitely useful in a melee fight, and has some synergy with other ambushes.
Your recent changes make ambushes much more useful for me. Thanks for the work Ricinus.
Some suggestions that came to mind while looking over our ambushes: Add a minor discipline debuff onto clout, it would add some bite to it plus help to land other ambushes. Since we aren't getting the strength buff back, how about a new khri/ambush/ability that debuffs the targets strength? Wouldn't be as useful as a buff would be, but would still help in the Power vs. Fortitude contest.
> There was also the change to Ambush stun to only do stuns rather than doing unconscious at the high end.
This makes the ambush much, much better for me. Doesn't interrupt training anymore (can't stun a sleeping foe) so it's an incredibly worthwhile change. And the sleep always seemed to break immediately, so the stun matters. What I need to do sometime is try to track how long the stuns are lasting. Sometimes it seems great, sometimes it seems to break? I'll look into some numbers so it's quantitative instead of qualitative.
I find it odd that my confidence builds very slowly with ambush stun successes. It builds much more quickly with "jab head" and missing those hits. Cause stealth succeeds (surprises 'em) but the weapon misses. (Missing on jabbing body parts is something I posted about previously, and it's still a problem.) But the confidence thing, hm. I locked backstab and debil and I'm only "feeling quite good"--but maybe it's intended to not give as much confidence as backstab-only commands.
> a bug fix to how debilitation ranks affect the SvS contest for ambushes.
It's a little hard to say because I've been working so hard to train, too, and gaining debil ranks. But it seems, qualitatively, that I'm succeeding more often with ambushes than I was, although this is just in PvE. I moved up to the harder gryphons with no trouble (although both stealth and tactics are training very slowly, still trying to figure that out).
This makes the ambush much, much better for me. Doesn't interrupt training anymore (can't stun a sleeping foe) so it's an incredibly worthwhile change. And the sleep always seemed to break immediately, so the stun matters. What I need to do sometime is try to track how long the stuns are lasting. Sometimes it seems great, sometimes it seems to break? I'll look into some numbers so it's quantitative instead of qualitative.
I find it odd that my confidence builds very slowly with ambush stun successes. It builds much more quickly with "jab head" and missing those hits. Cause stealth succeeds (surprises 'em) but the weapon misses. (Missing on jabbing body parts is something I posted about previously, and it's still a problem.) But the confidence thing, hm. I locked backstab and debil and I'm only "feeling quite good"--but maybe it's intended to not give as much confidence as backstab-only commands.
> a bug fix to how debilitation ranks affect the SvS contest for ambushes.
It's a little hard to say because I've been working so hard to train, too, and gaining debil ranks. But it seems, qualitatively, that I'm succeeding more often with ambushes than I was, although this is just in PvE. I moved up to the harder gryphons with no trouble (although both stealth and tactics are training very slowly, still trying to figure that out).
