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Do the charisma reqs on a lot of the titles tick anyone else off?
How do I need charisma (even in RL) to be an Outlaw? I have to have a hundred warrants for my arrest from Aesry from the past few weeks in aesry and I'm apparently not qualified yet. I'm sure the legal system, shop owners, and passer-byes screaming for my arrest would all vote for me getting title. Why do I need charisma for Highwayman? Is stealing from traders on the NTR not enough? That paladin that was halting people on the NTR and the gang that was stealing with him should automatically qualify for that title. Mastermind is another one that bothers me. I like the wisdom req, maybe replace the charisma with an intel req? You can be a blunt, mean, abrasive character and still organize a heist or criminal organization.
Swindler, scammer and grifter are all examples of titles that sort of make sense for a charisma req, but not in a way that is meaningful to the mechanics of the game. I understand that it could be argued that a criminal should be smooth and I see that the RL connection is natural. However...the smoothness of a criminal is negligibly impacted by the charisma stat in the game. Maybe fines are a little lower, or it factors into whether or not a shopkeeper catches you but when I think of an IG stat or skill that >makes< a DR criminal, charisma isn't even a footnote. What effect does it have on the execution of a crime? None in my experience. It just doesn't make sense from an IG standpoint.
The only other people saddled with the charisma req are traders, and they get direct benefit from training the skill and it's a natural thing for them to train. Fence is the only title I would concede to a charisma req if it were my change to make because it requires the selling of items and the trader would get a bonus to this (which is attached to their charisma right?).
Feel free to correct me if I'm off base about the general worthlessness of the Charisma stat when it comes to being a criminal. I'm not big on tests, but considering two characters that I play regularly have 10 and 46 charisma respectively, and I'm not noticing an outright difference when it comes to stealth and stealing, there simply isn't an impact (although my empath does seem to hide well for her skill/agility, not sure if that's in my head).
I hate going negative on the boards because of all of the great work the GM's do, and the unpaid nature of their employment, but in my opinion this needs to change as soon as titles are worked on again. The lopsided sharing 'Nightmare' title, the ?'s, the charisma reqs, scouting req for 'Shadow Runner'... Arrrrrg. I'm going to post this before I go into my rant on bins, snakeyes, mark, pawnshops and the krhi rewrite.
Also just watched gangs of new york, another title suggestion: Chiseller (sp?)
~ S.S.
Like it or not, in many ways Charisma is becoming the "new Discipline". By that, I mean for a long time Discipline was not really understood and was often under trained. Over time it became recognized that Discipline played a role in many, many systems. Now, no one would really think of not training Discipline.
Likewise, Charisma now is used in spell success (and resistance) calculations, thief confidence, spirit health, etc. I have even heard it supposed (dont know if proven) that Charisma can play a role in multi opponent situations (i.e. the higher your Charisma, the higher mulit opp penalty you give to others). Not to mention the ol' faithful standbys of fine calculations and pricing.
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Nycthemeron
(Nycthe"meron) n. [Gr. night + day.] The natural day and night, or space of twenty-four hours.
Likewise, Charisma now is used in spell success (and resistance) calculations, thief confidence, spirit health, etc. I have even heard it supposed (dont know if proven) that Charisma can play a role in multi opponent situations (i.e. the higher your Charisma, the higher mulit opp penalty you give to others). Not to mention the ol' faithful standbys of fine calculations and pricing.
____________________________________
Nycthemeron
(Nycthe"meron) n. [Gr. night + day.] The natural day and night, or space of twenty-four hours.
I'm half way familiar with the effects of charisma (46 on one of my characters, not training it for giggles), although I'll admit I am more familiar with some effects than others. The thief confidence is a new one to me: How much of an impact does this have? If it's large I could possibly understand the relevance of the requirement to the titles.
It helps with fines: Once again, what does that have to do with the execution of the crime? There should be charisma based titles, but maybe Lawyer, Arbitrator, Litigator or Plea Bargainer would be a better match to express the usefulness of this aspect of charisma IG.
There are 9 criminal titles with a charisma req. There are 0 (?) with an agility requirement? Which stat do you train when you really want to push the envelope as a criminal? I'm not leaning towards charisma.
~ S.S.
It helps with fines: Once again, what does that have to do with the execution of the crime? There should be charisma based titles, but maybe Lawyer, Arbitrator, Litigator or Plea Bargainer would be a better match to express the usefulness of this aspect of charisma IG.
There are 9 criminal titles with a charisma req. There are 0 (?) with an agility requirement? Which stat do you train when you really want to push the envelope as a criminal? I'm not leaning towards charisma.
~ S.S.
Someone else would have to answer on the confidence thing. I just recall that being discussed as a factor when it was coming out.
As you are aware too, the much ballyhood disguise stuff (if and when it appears) is supposed to key off of charisma. In that line, a lot of the fake titles require charisma to pull off (yes, its a bit of a circular argument, but I thought it bears mentioning.)
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Nycthemeron
(Nycthe"meron) n. [Gr. night + day.] The natural day and night, or space of twenty-four hours.
As you are aware too, the much ballyhood disguise stuff (if and when it appears) is supposed to key off of charisma. In that line, a lot of the fake titles require charisma to pull off (yes, its a bit of a circular argument, but I thought it bears mentioning.)
____________________________________
Nycthemeron
(Nycthe"meron) n. [Gr. night + day.] The natural day and night, or space of twenty-four hours.
Let?s say for argument sake, S.S is a local shop keeper. Mr. E and Mr. ShootJooFace walk into S.S's shop to do some stealing. Mr. E is one handsome devil, just gushing with Charisma. Mr. ShootJooFace is one ugly, dull witted bastard, with no Charisma. Both E and the bastard have the same level of stealing skill.
Assuming S.S is extremely interested in protecting her goods and not drooling all over Mr. E...
(Q)Who do you think S.S is going to end up watching more closely?
(A)I would bet most shop owners keep a sharp eye on the ever lovable, yet dull witted, Mr. ShootJooFace; however, Mr. E would probably get a bit more breathing room in the shops. Therefore, I can see a ?loose? tie of Charisma to criminal titles, yet still enough of a tie that it could make sense.
E.
Assuming S.S is extremely interested in protecting her goods and not drooling all over Mr. E...
(Q)Who do you think S.S is going to end up watching more closely?
(A)I would bet most shop owners keep a sharp eye on the ever lovable, yet dull witted, Mr. ShootJooFace; however, Mr. E would probably get a bit more breathing room in the shops. Therefore, I can see a ?loose? tie of Charisma to criminal titles, yet still enough of a tie that it could make sense.
E.
Like I said, I understand the RL connection, but it doesn't equate to the stat's uses in game to my knowledge.
If charisma does have a big impact on theif confidence/avoiding the guards then maybe I could see it with a few titles. But it certainly doesn't have a place with 9 titles when there is no requirement for agility in any of these.
Mr. E might be able to charm in RL, but his 50 charisma and 200 plats of shifting isn't doing a bit of good IG.
(Aside from mr. E, if i'm not mistaken I'm thinking you had a specific person in mind when you chose the ugly dull character to be Mr. Shootjooface.)
~ S.S.
If charisma does have a big impact on theif confidence/avoiding the guards then maybe I could see it with a few titles. But it certainly doesn't have a place with 9 titles when there is no requirement for agility in any of these.
Mr. E might be able to charm in RL, but his 50 charisma and 200 plats of shifting isn't doing a bit of good IG.
(Aside from mr. E, if i'm not mistaken I'm thinking you had a specific person in mind when you chose the ugly dull character to be Mr. Shootjooface.)
~ S.S.
the problem here is the circlular logic...
charisma is worthles people say (despite very numberous reports from GM on teh contray)
charisma should be more useful people say
charisma gets put into places to be used
charisma is looked at by players when looking at these places and says charisma is worthless it shouldn't be here
go back to top....
use that nify new website with the search features to find all teh instances of GM posts on charisma, it's quite a few more places than you'd think.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
charisma is worthles people say (despite very numberous reports from GM on teh contray)
charisma should be more useful people say
charisma gets put into places to be used
charisma is looked at by players when looking at these places and says charisma is worthless it shouldn't be here
go back to top....
use that nify new website with the search features to find all teh instances of GM posts on charisma, it's quite a few more places than you'd think.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
I'm not saying, nor have I ever said it is useless. I do know a good deal of what it is confirmed and rumored to do. What I did say is: "the smoothness of a criminal is negligibly impacted by the charisma stat in the game" and "Feel free to correct me if I'm off base about the general worthlessness of the Charisma stat when it comes to being a criminal [IG]". This isn't the circular argument that you are talking about.
I'm trying to be very clear and specific here: charisma's effect on criminal endeavors that justify charisma requirements for 9 criminal titles. Does it not have a larger effect on magic? How many warrior mage titles have a charisma req? It has a noticable effect on barbarian abilities, what is it roars or intimidation factor both? How many barbarian titles have a charisma req? Traders have 2 more titles with charisma, and bards have like 3 more. So the criminal set of titles reflects the necessity for charisma on par with the bard's guild and trader's guild. Unless I have completely underestimated charisma's (the stat)effect on my ability to con, steal and shoplift my way through life I think this is an unfair requirement to saddle us with.
I am completely open to the possibility, maybe even the likelyhood, that I have vastly underestimated charisma when it comes to thievery. If I were to come here and ask the same questions about agility that I am asking about charisma, obviously the response would be overwhelming. Agility makes a noticable difference that would justify agility reqs for criminal titles. The response I've gotten for charisma is: it effect these 15 things to an unknown degree and some of these things may or may not effect our abilities as criminals.
So far:
Possibly Thief confidence. Okay, didn't know this one. Is it a large effect? Can anyone confirm this?
Possibly makes shopkeepers look the other way.
Lowering fines. Again, there are better titles for charisma reqs than the titles that currently have one. My haul overwhelms my fines, so I don't really care anyway.
My theory is it possibly plays a role in whether or not a guard comes after you once certain things are triggered (I just don't know why else they would put it on the outlaw title).
What website are you speaking of? I'll absolutely look for posts on charisma's effect on criminal success.
~ S.S.
I'm trying to be very clear and specific here: charisma's effect on criminal endeavors that justify charisma requirements for 9 criminal titles. Does it not have a larger effect on magic? How many warrior mage titles have a charisma req? It has a noticable effect on barbarian abilities, what is it roars or intimidation factor both? How many barbarian titles have a charisma req? Traders have 2 more titles with charisma, and bards have like 3 more. So the criminal set of titles reflects the necessity for charisma on par with the bard's guild and trader's guild. Unless I have completely underestimated charisma's (the stat)effect on my ability to con, steal and shoplift my way through life I think this is an unfair requirement to saddle us with.
I am completely open to the possibility, maybe even the likelyhood, that I have vastly underestimated charisma when it comes to thievery. If I were to come here and ask the same questions about agility that I am asking about charisma, obviously the response would be overwhelming. Agility makes a noticable difference that would justify agility reqs for criminal titles. The response I've gotten for charisma is: it effect these 15 things to an unknown degree and some of these things may or may not effect our abilities as criminals.
So far:
Possibly Thief confidence. Okay, didn't know this one. Is it a large effect? Can anyone confirm this?
Possibly makes shopkeepers look the other way.
Lowering fines. Again, there are better titles for charisma reqs than the titles that currently have one. My haul overwhelms my fines, so I don't really care anyway.
My theory is it possibly plays a role in whether or not a guard comes after you once certain things are triggered (I just don't know why else they would put it on the outlaw title).
What website are you speaking of? I'll absolutely look for posts on charisma's effect on criminal success.
~ S.S.
Does it increase the time between the shopkeeper yelling for the guards and the passerby running by? Haven't confirmed it by any means, way too many possible variables, 1 of which can't be given a value (rep), and I don't consider it that important. When the passerby runs by within 3 seconds of me leaving the shop and hiding... time to lay off in that town for a few days.
Thrall of Dergati,
Heroiklim Zortal
Cast of iron, dull grey and pitted, this altar is cold and lifeless. A thin coating of rust covers its surface. The words "Even Death We Master" are scrawled across the altar, defacing even destruction.
Thrall of Dergati,
Heroiklim Zortal
Cast of iron, dull grey and pitted, this altar is cold and lifeless. A thin coating of rust covers its surface. The words "Even Death We Master" are scrawled across the altar, defacing even destruction.
here
https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=21&topic=27&message=1280
https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=21&topic=27&message=1283
the place that has the DR search feature...
http://www.freepgs.com/drsearch/index.php
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=21&topic=27&message=1280
https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=21&topic=27&message=1283
the place that has the DR search feature...
http://www.freepgs.com/drsearch/index.php
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
>>Charisma helps in more things than many people realize. Yes, it is important in will vs will contests, since Charisma reflects your strength of character as well. Don't make the common mistake of equating charisma with physical appearance, because Hitler was extremely charismatic, and as ugly as sin. Same could be said of many of histories most famous leaders.
That said, Charisma is going to be the most useful to those that have abilities that involve leadership, intimidation, or trying to bend others to their will (will vs will spells, roars, enchantes, Lead, and the like), or those that are interested in wheeling & dealing (traders or folks who just want more mileage in the financial arena).
It is also a major component of spirit health, as others have pointed out. In addition to depart times and things of that nature, also consider that there are things that directly attack your spirit, and all the stamina in the world isn't going to save you against them if you have no charisma.
Charisma does factor into several other things, but I think what folks have already mentioned covers the bulk of it.<<
That's a verbatim post from Dartenian. There just weren't a lot of Thief systems talked about there. If that changes... I'll train charisma more. But I have to have tangible benefits from stats I train.
-Wighten
That said, Charisma is going to be the most useful to those that have abilities that involve leadership, intimidation, or trying to bend others to their will (will vs will spells, roars, enchantes, Lead, and the like), or those that are interested in wheeling & dealing (traders or folks who just want more mileage in the financial arena).
It is also a major component of spirit health, as others have pointed out. In addition to depart times and things of that nature, also consider that there are things that directly attack your spirit, and all the stamina in the world isn't going to save you against them if you have no charisma.
Charisma does factor into several other things, but I think what folks have already mentioned covers the bulk of it.<<
That's a verbatim post from Dartenian. There just weren't a lot of Thief systems talked about there. If that changes... I'll train charisma more. But I have to have tangible benefits from stats I train.
-Wighten
Okay, looked through all of the GM posts about charisma...
Royce is the only one that said anything about charisma and thieves specifically (back in 2001). It helps us avoid the guards in a big way. So I'll take Outlaw off of my list of gripes. Everything else remains and I'm no longer confident it has the other supposed effects on our stealing or fines (my character with 46 charisma gets good enough fines).
Thanks for the search link Yamcer, I appreciate it. But people still seem to be thinking i'm criticising Charisma as a whole despite my repeated efforts to make it clear I am focusing on a specific area. The links to the other posts you put up have no bearing on my argument whatsoever.
I agree circular arguments are a frustrating aspect of the board. And a perfect example of this is what has happened here:
Statement:
'Charisma doesn't have a big effect on stealing, not enough to qualify it as a requirement for 9 criminal titles.'
Response:
'Yeah, but it helps spirit health'
So, for what it's worth, my gripe stands with the exception of 'Outlaw' and 'Fence'. I'm done now.
~ S.S.
Royce is the only one that said anything about charisma and thieves specifically (back in 2001). It helps us avoid the guards in a big way. So I'll take Outlaw off of my list of gripes. Everything else remains and I'm no longer confident it has the other supposed effects on our stealing or fines (my character with 46 charisma gets good enough fines).
Thanks for the search link Yamcer, I appreciate it. But people still seem to be thinking i'm criticising Charisma as a whole despite my repeated efforts to make it clear I am focusing on a specific area. The links to the other posts you put up have no bearing on my argument whatsoever.
I agree circular arguments are a frustrating aspect of the board. And a perfect example of this is what has happened here:
Statement:
'Charisma doesn't have a big effect on stealing, not enough to qualify it as a requirement for 9 criminal titles.'
Response:
'Yeah, but it helps spirit health'
So, for what it's worth, my gripe stands with the exception of 'Outlaw' and 'Fence'. I'm done now.
~ S.S.
incorrect s.s. charisma affects stealing significantly.
3 newb characters all start with their starting coin. i run a script to have them steal from each other. each one tries stealing from the other 2 over and over to move perception, stealing. all humans with just starting stats. one gonna be trader and spent all stats on training charisma.
come back in day or two and dude with charisma has all the coins. was interesting to see.
3 newb characters all start with their starting coin. i run a script to have them steal from each other. each one tries stealing from the other 2 over and over to move perception, stealing. all humans with just starting stats. one gonna be trader and spent all stats on training charisma.
come back in day or two and dude with charisma has all the coins. was interesting to see.
>all humans with just starting stats.
Where these stats equal, did you train them all up to 10 for instance? or did our trader friend end up with more agility or something else that might have unbalanced it? That is quite interesting.
Jalika
---
An air elemental appears before Thanious and whispers something to him before floating over to you and saying, "Thanious is attempting to steal from you, madam. You may ACCUSE him to the proper officials."
The elemental fades away.
Where these stats equal, did you train them all up to 10 for instance? or did our trader friend end up with more agility or something else that might have unbalanced it? That is quite interesting.
Jalika
---
An air elemental appears before Thanious and whispers something to him before floating over to you and saying, "Thanious is attempting to steal from you, madam. You may ACCUSE him to the proper officials."
The elemental fades away.
<<I seen everyone is talking about Charisma. I heard that Charisma has a impact on how many box's that are dropped from box dropping critter's. Is there any truth to this? Or is it just the luck of the draw?
Absolutely true.
I figure if people are going to keep believing in urban legends then who I am to fight it
Trebber
Your mech lore ranks could care less if the paper is blue or plain.
GM XXXXXX "Well, we can't please everyone."
You say, "True, but that is no reason not to try."
Absolutely true.
I figure if people are going to keep believing in urban legends then who I am to fight it
Trebber
Your mech lore ranks could care less if the paper is blue or plain.
GM XXXXXX "Well, we can't please everyone."
You say, "True, but that is no reason not to try."
Thanks to that SearchDR website that Yamcer just posted...
>>GM Risek (5/25/04): I wonder if we'll ever dispel that charisma myth. GameMasters have said (long before I ever became one) that charisma plays no part in treasure that you find.
"The day is for honest men, the night for thieves."
-- Euripides
>>GM Risek (5/25/04): I wonder if we'll ever dispel that charisma myth. GameMasters have said (long before I ever became one) that charisma plays no part in treasure that you find.
"The day is for honest men, the night for thieves."
-- Euripides
>>GM Risek (5/25/04): I wonder if we'll ever dispel that charisma myth. GameMasters have said (long before I ever became one) that charisma plays no part in treasure that you find.
Yes.. but note. He never said that it DIDNT. He merely said that GM's have denied its existence. The truth is out there.
-Wighten
Yes.. but note. He never said that it DIDNT. He merely said that GM's have denied its existence. The truth is out there.
-Wighten
