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The following is a cut and paste from the Paladin Conflict Folder.
The discussion ended ideas and possible solutions about the current flooded economy.
Daython suggested that I put my ideas to the Trader GMs.
For background I include first my ideas on how the paladin guild could structure their own affairs.
The second paste contains my answers to Daython's specific questions.
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Post 1461.
Okies... let's put the dung behind us.
And, for the record, in a conflict folder... I am quite happy to actually be conflictual.
I am not about to make retractions for comments made at those past points in time. What should be apparent by now is my ability to actually process new information, then, re-evaluate my position and move on.
Solutions or substance... so eloquently put... anyway I have been thinking... and for the hard core cynics... I am making it up as I go along. It's one of the things I do well. PENMAN = dum. The prior debate, however, has eeked out much valubale information.
And I just love playing with a brand new lump of clay. (as in lump of clay... this sentence is not intended to incite). Artistic like, if you please.
BACKGROUND
Forging is little done, is promoted by a few and becomes a huge success.
Those things that happen in the shadows fell out of the shadows.
There is talk on the gweth of forging unions. There is fear of forging unions. Why? See above.
Fellowship is formed.
Something one thought that was common knowledge was called out.
Mayhem did ensue.
Mayhem did subside.
FACTS OF MAYHEM
Midieval Guilds v. Modern Economics.
Midieval Guilds are an exceptional structure for controlling economies and pricing... amongst other things. Good control by the right kinda folks and ya gots morality, pride and wealth.
Modern economics, however, is based on a relatively recent economic theory called Free Market, which proposes to explain how the current economy runs.
These are two very different types of economic structures.
To have magnificient roleplayed Midieval Forging Guild would require the most strictestly enforced rules. To do so would be tantamount to the Masters rounding up the paladins, ranking them and making 'em tow the line. May Chadatru forbid a war where brother and sister paladins were too... <shudders>.
But from the mayhem we leant much of the brother and sister paladins.
Of this much I am sure... there are three main forgin' types.
Fellowship.
Free Market.
Free.
Fellowships of the Trinity.
One Mideival Guild is Doministic.
Two Mideival Guilds are both Free Market and adversarial.
Three Mideival Guilds is pure Magic from the Gods!
The old fashioned Fellowship already in existence.
The Free Market Fellowship already in existence.
And the Free Fellowship already in existence.
NB: Little bit of imagination need there.
The combined power of The Fellowships of the Trinity could be grand. It would represents and reflects three very distinct, and none less worthy, paths of forgin' paladins in the guild.
Masters of each Fellowship could form their own Council's. Set their own standards, choose their own prices or choose to choose not to set prices or give it away. The Masters of each Fellowship could regularly meet or call immediate conferences to jointly ensure the economic affairs and the like meet the agreed standards of the Paladin Guild.
Apprentices would have three choices. And three separate guilds could, over time, control who they would take as apprentices. Hopefully, in time, all those new to Elanthia would choose to be a paladin based on which path of fellowship they chose to walk.
If all three Fellowships reject a paladin as an apprenticeship then that would create a viable Black Sheep paladin <shudders>.
Organising The Fellowship of the Trinity would take a lot of time and pay no coin.
I do imagine that if this were to be instituted it would grow to be a most powerfully player-run structure and would allow fair assessment of the economy by some the the most generous and hard-working souls in the Realms. Ignoring bank balances altogether I am! I am quite happy to leave the control of the economies of these realms to the paladins.
Three entirely united differing points of view could, in effect, control the forgin' and the overall economic structure. All is required is a method for the Fellowships to do business nicely.
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Post 1466
>How do you think the transfer of goods in the realms should be handled?
Two possibilties come to mind.
One
With economic trinity of the paladin guild a trading treaty could possibly be arranged with the Trader's own similar style Council. I remember some idle Trader chatter from a while ago that they too are keen to take more control in matters concerning coin.
Trading Treaties could be formed where Trader's will be the only ones able to sell. There may even be several different Council's in the Trader Guild which deal with each of the paladins councils. Traders for each Fellowships market. Traders, as a whole, would need to agree not to buy forged goods from any but the Fellowships.
The Barbarians may also like to find a way to be part of this.
If each three of these guilds formed fellowships, unions, councils... what ever suits or already exists can be moulded.
What I have found in my own guild is that we are all very very different from each other... we have no trade with which to focus and have developed under our own devices.
The paladins have three distinct and differing views on forging.
The barbarians... I do not know.
The traders have something... I don't know if there are more than one.
Oh and rangers too... of them I know little except most are very kind and giving of their time.
Moonies and gweths and the like.
Shadows...
And any other guild who has craft to sell and has concerns with pricing and market flooding.
The trade/smithing guilds and the traders need to get together and form some very strong alliances based on mutual interests.
Instead of having the internal midieval guild structure...
You adopt the theory and apply it to a structure of 'multiple guilds' with 'multiple Fellowships' within. Talking major networking here.
The combination of guilds and fellowships use the economic theory of midieval structure for economic control.
There are far to many 'single' minds operating in everybodies best interests. All this motivation needs is structure to work and a heck of a lot of time by those who want change.
Two
Brutal.
Petition for mechanics changes which allow only traders to sell forged/smithed goods. Traders would have the discretion over whom they purchased off.
Make selling second-hand forged goods on the street a crime.
A master paladin could also be given an ability to 'bond' any donated forged goods to the recipient. A timer I guess. For the time armor is bonded to the recipient they can not sell it. They should also be able to do this for any other trade guild wares. Could also have a reversal ability if it is deemed the recipient is genuine.
>As in goods from one player to another, from a shop etc etc. Does a persons time have value?
Goods from one player to another I think I addressed above. A persons time most certainly has value.
>If so, what is the measure of that value and how should it be compensated?
Valuing time is not an easy thing to do.
Some folks turn on the time counter while they are at the forge, some turn it on at the hours of hunting, others minds may be filled with their trade when they are trying to sleep at night. The pure altruist is different again... there is no money value placed on their time at all.
In modern economic terms you measure ALL the costs involved, assess your market and reach a price.
Now you'd have to sell capped plate for about 200 kronar at the least.
I do actually recall, just now, that when Clyn was discussing pricing structures on the gweth he used certain shop prices as a measure.
Quite frankly... I was not viewing Clyn's actions as honourable at that time. Pureblade had made it clear he was the saviour of the shadows and Clyn was just one more union-minded paladin cast in the unfortunate example of Pureblade.
So Clyn has already identified a way to value time which is consistent with pricing of equal or less than equal goods in Elanthia.
And I assume it is this valuing which is currently in place with the Fellowship. Or one agreed to by those folks.
Second thought. Ask the traders too. They know their markets.
The Elanthian shops do not have an identifiable market... there may be a weapon worth 25 plat store bought... but if no-one actually buys it then it is not a good measure for a pricing structure.
Supply and demand.
If a 40 plat item sits on a table for weeks... there is no demand.
If it gets sold in a matter of days... price is good.
Gets sold the second it hits the table... too cheap.
Statistically assess the supply and demand of current goods sold through the traders. Review current pricing structure and make any changes if the statistics research says it's needed.
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If you managed to read this far... well done!
Shasheil... who always looks for half full glasses... not half empty ones.
I didn't understand any of that post, except this:
If a 40 plat item sits on a table for weeks... there is no demand.
If it gets sold in a matter of days... price is good.
Gets sold the second it hits the table... too cheap.
Yeeeeeeeeeaup.
With the caveat that if you price some things below market value, people become suspicious and won't buy them (forged goods operate this way).
Nice post! I think.
- Bazaari Nyken
If a 40 plat item sits on a table for weeks... there is no demand.
If it gets sold in a matter of days... price is good.
Gets sold the second it hits the table... too cheap.
Yeeeeeeeeeaup.
With the caveat that if you price some things below market value, people become suspicious and won't buy them (forged goods operate this way).
Nice post! I think.
- Bazaari Nyken
>Wasn't sure if it was a poem or an epic written in a fanciful style.
Well it wasn't written specifically for you Gidske... it just kinda turned up.
>There was economics discussed in this post?
I am not sure if that is ignorant sarcasm or your way of asking me to explain the economics in another way?
Well it wasn't written specifically for you Gidske... it just kinda turned up.
>There was economics discussed in this post?
I am not sure if that is ignorant sarcasm or your way of asking me to explain the economics in another way?
Forging is little done, is promoted by a few and becomes a huge success.
Those things that happen in the shadows fell out of the shadows.
There is talk on the gweth of forging unions. There is fear of forging unions. Why? See above.
Fellowship is formed.
Something one thought that was common knowledge was called out.
Mayhem did ensue.
Mayhem did subside.
FACTS OF MAYHEM
Midieval Guilds v. Modern Economics.
You are partly right. I have a problem with posts that resemble the opening chapter of a text book and bullets with quaint tidbits.
The problem with the economy, is coins are generated by critters; ignoring Trader contracts for now, as this probably only represents a very small percentage of the actual coins in the realms. Obviously, goblins, trolls, etc, all have minting factorys and gem and mineral mines. Someone once remarked that critters are equivalent to the modern day ATM, without a limit to withdrawal.
This is the real cause of Economic problems in DR. Sure, there are plenty of specifics that go with it; items never wearing out, hardly any taxation, lack of ways to put money on unsubstantial things.
From the first, creatures you hunt should only drop coins on rare occasions, and then it should not be in any real amount. The economy should of been built on commerce and skills of players...and other things...I am too tired right now. Unless the GMs plan to just wipe out a few million plats, this is the system we are now stuck with. Prices will keep going up, plats will just shuffle about between players and critters will keep dropping big boxes and hefty coins.
I suppose your post made some sense, I just didn't like your format.
Trader Gidske
Those things that happen in the shadows fell out of the shadows.
There is talk on the gweth of forging unions. There is fear of forging unions. Why? See above.
Fellowship is formed.
Something one thought that was common knowledge was called out.
Mayhem did ensue.
Mayhem did subside.
FACTS OF MAYHEM
Midieval Guilds v. Modern Economics.
You are partly right. I have a problem with posts that resemble the opening chapter of a text book and bullets with quaint tidbits.
The problem with the economy, is coins are generated by critters; ignoring Trader contracts for now, as this probably only represents a very small percentage of the actual coins in the realms. Obviously, goblins, trolls, etc, all have minting factorys and gem and mineral mines. Someone once remarked that critters are equivalent to the modern day ATM, without a limit to withdrawal.
This is the real cause of Economic problems in DR. Sure, there are plenty of specifics that go with it; items never wearing out, hardly any taxation, lack of ways to put money on unsubstantial things.
From the first, creatures you hunt should only drop coins on rare occasions, and then it should not be in any real amount. The economy should of been built on commerce and skills of players...and other things...I am too tired right now. Unless the GMs plan to just wipe out a few million plats, this is the system we are now stuck with. Prices will keep going up, plats will just shuffle about between players and critters will keep dropping big boxes and hefty coins.
I suppose your post made some sense, I just didn't like your format.
Trader Gidske
That post could have been done better.
I'm in agreement about the economy is pretty much stuck the way it is now with players shuffling coin back and forth. It's not just tanned and forged items. It's merchant and quest items.
Contrary to expectations, merchants in DR have a real disinterest in selling their wares. Merchants rarely advertise themselves, and choose to pop in out of the way areas quite often. Quite a lot of merchants have shown up ONE or TWO times then vanished forever (Immokken, Edword) despite being hugely popular. Coicidentally, these merchants sold items that no other merchant since has, making their wares climb in price as the months tick by,and never every decreasing in price. Basically those who have the items that are in demand can ask what they like for em, since the buyer is willing to pay.
Many, many times I see people decide the day after a merchant leaves that they absolutely MUST have a certain item. They are at the mercy of those who have it.
Forged weapons and tanned items are far too common. Every barbarian who can forge (can forge not forge well) is taking up the hammer to make blades and sell em. Younger forgers are willing to sell far below the price of older, more respected forgers simply to make a name for themselves and get sales. The same with armor. Tanners have more of a market since few are able to tan goods that significantly cmpare with Wolf Clan.
Look at horses....when Rangers could first capture horses they got together to fix the price at 30 plat each for a base price. Now you can get one for as little as 12 plat.
Demand has little to do with prices, supply has more. Forgers who are doing the same work as EVERY OTHER forger cannot expect to command top prices for their wares. Period. End of Story.
I tell my forging clients I am not going to sit all day in the tent trying to sell 'average quality' weapons and armor. Average quality being the same quality as everyone else's. I price competitively and make sure my clients know I am willing to haggle some to make a sale after all it costs me to keep putting the same inventory on my tables and it seems every other trader is doing the same.
I can see no real way for traders to get together on this since we are all dealing with a rather limited customer base who is savvy enough now to shop around and not just buy from the first person they come across. Also we are all offering the same quality of items.
I'm in agreement about the economy is pretty much stuck the way it is now with players shuffling coin back and forth. It's not just tanned and forged items. It's merchant and quest items.
Contrary to expectations, merchants in DR have a real disinterest in selling their wares. Merchants rarely advertise themselves, and choose to pop in out of the way areas quite often. Quite a lot of merchants have shown up ONE or TWO times then vanished forever (Immokken, Edword) despite being hugely popular. Coicidentally, these merchants sold items that no other merchant since has, making their wares climb in price as the months tick by,and never every decreasing in price. Basically those who have the items that are in demand can ask what they like for em, since the buyer is willing to pay.
Many, many times I see people decide the day after a merchant leaves that they absolutely MUST have a certain item. They are at the mercy of those who have it.
Forged weapons and tanned items are far too common. Every barbarian who can forge (can forge not forge well) is taking up the hammer to make blades and sell em. Younger forgers are willing to sell far below the price of older, more respected forgers simply to make a name for themselves and get sales. The same with armor. Tanners have more of a market since few are able to tan goods that significantly cmpare with Wolf Clan.
Look at horses....when Rangers could first capture horses they got together to fix the price at 30 plat each for a base price. Now you can get one for as little as 12 plat.
Demand has little to do with prices, supply has more. Forgers who are doing the same work as EVERY OTHER forger cannot expect to command top prices for their wares. Period. End of Story.
I tell my forging clients I am not going to sit all day in the tent trying to sell 'average quality' weapons and armor. Average quality being the same quality as everyone else's. I price competitively and make sure my clients know I am willing to haggle some to make a sale after all it costs me to keep putting the same inventory on my tables and it seems every other trader is doing the same.
I can see no real way for traders to get together on this since we are all dealing with a rather limited customer base who is savvy enough now to shop around and not just buy from the first person they come across. Also we are all offering the same quality of items.
I don't think the problem is with the economy, per se. No matter how the economy is set up it will eventually end up with the same problems. That's because no matter what economic system is used they all have one thing in common: human nature. Popular items will always cost more(for reasons Xyillia mentioned) and there will always be people who will find a way to manipulate the system for there benefit. Contrary to popular theory price(for the most part) is not base on supply and demand, it's based on greed<for lack of a better word>. It happens in real life and it happens in games. It doesn't cost Nike anywhere near $80 to make a pair of shoes, but they can darn well charge that much because they're popular. Nike(or Reebok or Hushpuppy) wants to make as many bucks as they can and we want to be seen in the coolest shoes so we fork over. Likewise, I'm sure most forgers make a nice profit based on the same reasoning(not that making a profit is bad). My point being, no matter what is done to "fix" the economy; whether it be changing the economic system, the crafting system, through player unions, or whatever, the human factor is still going to be there wanting make a buck at the expense of others and at the expense of messing up the economy. Just so I'm not mis-interpreted, I'm am NOT in any way trying to imply that making a profit is bad. It just doesn't mix well with an unchecked human nature, as we've seen in some businesses lately cough*Enron/Worldcom*cough. Sorry if I sound so negative, but sometimes you just have to be realistic about things. And sorry if I wasn't peotic enough<grin>. I'll probably come back and edit this tomorrow after I get some sleep, so don't flame me too much, yet.
