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Zadraes,
Do you want me to start testing now or next week? I'm a bit confused.
Regards,
Sortny/Braunwen
just a suggestion for this, if you are currently working on caravan stuff
the amount of time before your caravan disappears when you log off is something like 30 minutes to 1 hour. This time frame is inconveniently short. I cannot log off to go get a burger and come back without my caravan disappearing.
Secondly, the amount of time before your caravan dies from not feeding it is totally not realistic. I believe it is something like 1-2 hours without feeding (stay logged in) and your caravan will die.
Given that 1-2 hours is like 4-8 hours (in game life), does it seem appropriate that an animal would die from not having food for 8 hours? Certainly not!
Why can this not be increased to something like 8 hours real life time? (we do have caravan recall afterall)
These issues make trading anti-fun.
the amount of time before your caravan disappears when you log off is something like 30 minutes to 1 hour. This time frame is inconveniently short. I cannot log off to go get a burger and come back without my caravan disappearing.
Secondly, the amount of time before your caravan dies from not feeding it is totally not realistic. I believe it is something like 1-2 hours without feeding (stay logged in) and your caravan will die.
Given that 1-2 hours is like 4-8 hours (in game life), does it seem appropriate that an animal would die from not having food for 8 hours? Certainly not!
Why can this not be increased to something like 8 hours real life time? (we do have caravan recall afterall)
These issues make trading anti-fun.
i wanted to furthur explain why i am bringing this up.
I hate afk scripting. Better said, i would hate to get caught afk scripting, therefore i do not.
To accommodate this, i log off or pause my scripts when i am not actively watching/playing the game.
But the timer on idle caravan death is non-forgiving and does not at all consider potential situations why the caravan might be idle.
regarding caravan death and forgetting to feed it. I feel the caravan should eventually die, but not at all as fast as it does currently.
This can be rectified by slowing the caravan if it does not get fed, then once it reaches its slowest speed, it could eventually die then.
I hate afk scripting. Better said, i would hate to get caught afk scripting, therefore i do not.
To accommodate this, i log off or pause my scripts when i am not actively watching/playing the game.
But the timer on idle caravan death is non-forgiving and does not at all consider potential situations why the caravan might be idle.
regarding caravan death and forgetting to feed it. I feel the caravan should eventually die, but not at all as fast as it does currently.
This can be rectified by slowing the caravan if it does not get fed, then once it reaches its slowest speed, it could eventually die then.
>To accommodate this, i log off or pause my scripts when i am not actively watching/playing the game.
I thought I would point out: You can stable the caravan (even if it has crates on it) before you log out. The stable also feeds the caravan, and it's fairly cheap as long as it's less than a day or so. Just remember to have it returned so that you can deliver the contracts before they expire.
most of the time while trading is not spent sitting next to a stable. So you suggest that everytime i want to pause trading, to go stable the caravan (usually takes 5-10 minutes).
This is a non-feasible plan for pausing a trading session to grab a bit to eat, or to answer a long phone call, or whatever it is that interrupted your gaming for an hour or two.
considering many real life situations require immediate attention, pausing life for 5-10 minutes so you can pause the game isn't always feasible.
thanks tho for your trading 101 tip, tho i would think it obvious that i am aware of what stables are and how they work.......
This is a non-feasible plan for pausing a trading session to grab a bit to eat, or to answer a long phone call, or whatever it is that interrupted your gaming for an hour or two.
considering many real life situations require immediate attention, pausing life for 5-10 minutes so you can pause the game isn't always feasible.
thanks tho for your trading 101 tip, tho i would think it obvious that i am aware of what stables are and how they work.......
>Do you want me to start testing now or next week? I'm a bit confused.
You can test the basics now -- it should largely be invisible (outside of LOOK/STUDY stuff), so it won't exactly be fun, but it's a chance to see if anything broke in my updates before we push it live. The upcoming new POC thing won't be available for testing until early next week.
>...Was able to do everything except buy commodities.
Yeah, it was setting off an error when you tried. Something got missed in the updates, I was just tied up in Prime at the time. I'm looking into it now, will post again once I get it resolved. Good find!
>the amount of time before your caravan disappears when you log off is something like 30 minutes to 1 hour.
I'll double check the timers, but I feel that a reasonable amount of time. We don't want them sitting around excessively just looking pretty, nor do we want to risk them starving to death. Stables usually aren't far if it'll be a prolonged absence.
>Secondly, the amount of time before your caravan dies from not feeding it is totally not realistic. I believe it is something like 1-2 hours without feeding (stay logged in) and your caravan will die.
I'll check this as well; I was thinking it was longer. What you last fed them can also have an effect on the time, and that's part of a future update I want to dig into now that a lot of the core mechanics of them have been cleaned up to be more easily expanded. :)
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
You can test the basics now -- it should largely be invisible (outside of LOOK/STUDY stuff), so it won't exactly be fun, but it's a chance to see if anything broke in my updates before we push it live. The upcoming new POC thing won't be available for testing until early next week.
>...Was able to do everything except buy commodities.
Yeah, it was setting off an error when you tried. Something got missed in the updates, I was just tied up in Prime at the time. I'm looking into it now, will post again once I get it resolved. Good find!
>the amount of time before your caravan disappears when you log off is something like 30 minutes to 1 hour.
I'll double check the timers, but I feel that a reasonable amount of time. We don't want them sitting around excessively just looking pretty, nor do we want to risk them starving to death. Stables usually aren't far if it'll be a prolonged absence.
>Secondly, the amount of time before your caravan dies from not feeding it is totally not realistic. I believe it is something like 1-2 hours without feeding (stay logged in) and your caravan will die.
I'll check this as well; I was thinking it was longer. What you last fed them can also have an effect on the time, and that's part of a future update I want to dig into now that a lot of the core mechanics of them have been cleaned up to be more easily expanded. :)
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
I also fixed an error when trying to climb a ledge while holding the ledger. I think
does this include the overhanging ledge in grass eels? I remember always getting stuck there when my trader fought eels, had to specify "overhanging ledge" or it would try to climb the ledger in my backpack.
The other place i ran into trouble is climbing up and down the ledges in la'tami on aesry with my trader, but for that i used to just close my backpack before i'd start climbing. this also applies to the la'tami in the undergondola area in shard.
/---
Oh and last one, DR at any given time has a population of weenies that will criticize at the drop of a hat, don't take things personally it happens to everyone.
Leucius
does this include the overhanging ledge in grass eels? I remember always getting stuck there when my trader fought eels, had to specify "overhanging ledge" or it would try to climb the ledger in my backpack.
The other place i ran into trouble is climbing up and down the ledges in la'tami on aesry with my trader, but for that i used to just close my backpack before i'd start climbing. this also applies to the la'tami in the undergondola area in shard.
/---
Oh and last one, DR at any given time has a population of weenies that will criticize at the drop of a hat, don't take things personally it happens to everyone.
Leucius
>It's just shy of 35 minutes for a dead owner.
Allow me to clarify -- this timer is only valid if you're in the room with your caravan while dead. If you leave it sitting and go off hunting and die away from the caravan, it will continue doing whatever it was doing without a care in the world that you're dead. It's just more jarring for the driver to see you lying there dead, so he calls a halt and waits for you to (hopefully) get help. If you stay dead too long, he'll give up on waiting and take things to storage.
Interesting possibilities for future updates with this mechanic.
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
Allow me to clarify -- this timer is only valid if you're in the room with your caravan while dead. If you leave it sitting and go off hunting and die away from the caravan, it will continue doing whatever it was doing without a care in the world that you're dead. It's just more jarring for the driver to see you lying there dead, so he calls a halt and waits for you to (hopefully) get help. If you stay dead too long, he'll give up on waiting and take things to storage.
Interesting possibilities for future updates with this mechanic.
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
<<It's just more jarring for the driver to see you lying there dead, so he calls a halt and waits for you to (hopefully) get help>>
hmm. so it wouldn't be too unreasonable that in some future update he might, after a short time, be able to tie your foot to the wagon and drag your dead body to the closest outpost? or you could set it up as a toggle in advance for an additional fee?
:-).
/---
Oh and last one, DR at any given time has a population of weenies that will criticize at the drop of a hat, don't take things personally it happens to everyone.
Leucius
hmm. so it wouldn't be too unreasonable that in some future update he might, after a short time, be able to tie your foot to the wagon and drag your dead body to the closest outpost? or you could set it up as a toggle in advance for an additional fee?
:-).
/---
Oh and last one, DR at any given time has a population of weenies that will criticize at the drop of a hat, don't take things personally it happens to everyone.
Leucius
>It's just shy of 35 minutes for a dead owner.
i have to bring this up again, 35 minutes? doesnt that seem a bit quick?
Real life Animals dont die from a day of not feeding, they get hungry, but they do not die.
This death time mechanic simply appears overly tight, stupid, and anti-fun. What's the point? Why not make the caravan death timer more realistic?
How long do rangers familiars die from not feeding? do they ever?
i have to bring this up again, 35 minutes? doesnt that seem a bit quick?
Real life Animals dont die from a day of not feeding, they get hungry, but they do not die.
This death time mechanic simply appears overly tight, stupid, and anti-fun. What's the point? Why not make the caravan death timer more realistic?
How long do rangers familiars die from not feeding? do they ever?
>>Allow me to clarify -- this timer is only valid if you're in the room with your caravan while dead. If you leave it sitting and go off hunting and die away from the caravan, it will continue doing whatever it was doing without a care in the world that you're dead. It's just more jarring for the driver to see you lying there dead, so he calls a halt and waits for you to (hopefully) get help. If you stay dead too long, he'll give up on waiting and take things to storage.
something i noticed last nite
1. i was at the stable and forgot to stable my caravan before i logged off
2. i had tons of contracts and commodities on the caravan
3. i logged off pretty quickly
4. when i woke up and tried to get the caravan back, i was told i let it die. (actual deaths not wander)
This is not normal, Previously, when a caravan is idle from a trader who is logged off, the caravan wanders back to the stable. It does not straight up die in this situtation, (never has before)
It did this time.
something i noticed last nite
1. i was at the stable and forgot to stable my caravan before i logged off
2. i had tons of contracts and commodities on the caravan
3. i logged off pretty quickly
4. when i woke up and tried to get the caravan back, i was told i let it die. (actual deaths not wander)
This is not normal, Previously, when a caravan is idle from a trader who is logged off, the caravan wanders back to the stable. It does not straight up die in this situtation, (never has before)
It did this time.
>>i have to bring this up again, 35 minutes? doesnt that seem a bit quick?
>>Real life Animals dont die from a day of not feeding, they get hungry, but they do not die.
>>This death time mechanic simply appears overly tight, stupid, and anti-fun. What's the point? Why not make the caravan death timer more realistic?
I could be entirely wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 35 minute timer is for when the caravan leaves after the owner dies. Not for the caravan itself "dying".
"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2
>>Real life Animals dont die from a day of not feeding, they get hungry, but they do not die.
>>This death time mechanic simply appears overly tight, stupid, and anti-fun. What's the point? Why not make the caravan death timer more realistic?
I could be entirely wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 35 minute timer is for when the caravan leaves after the owner dies. Not for the caravan itself "dying".
"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2
>>I could be entirely wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 35 minute timer is for when the caravan leaves after the owner dies. Not for the caravan itself "dying".
i understand this, its the entire caravan death timer (all aspects about it) thing that hits me.
(i hate it when one dies for me just having to go get lunch, and after it happening 1000 times it gets annoying)
(it really annoys me how once you start trading, you cannot take even a short break at all, for the system screwing you. If you even want to take a lunch break, you can't. You have to wait 5-10 more minutes to stable before you can stop playing. Everyone else pretty much just as to type, ret;ret;exit and they can pause within seconds.)
maybe noone but me cares about this, so i'll shut up about it after this.
But since i've explained my problem with this from the real life angle, let me show this from the character perspective.
i'm an old trader. I get tired. Half way to leth, grassy fields look nice down on the STR. lets park the caravan so we can take a nap, just a couple hours.
sleep.... sleep... sleeep....
Wake up 4 hours later, where's the caravan? Search Search Search, what? its at a stable? Mr. Caravan Driver, what do i pay you for? How long is that attention span that you cannot sit in one place for even the shortest time........
anyways, sure, conserve system resources on thoes idle caravan's. i'm sure there's a hundred of them just sitting around doing nothing.
i understand this, its the entire caravan death timer (all aspects about it) thing that hits me.
(i hate it when one dies for me just having to go get lunch, and after it happening 1000 times it gets annoying)
(it really annoys me how once you start trading, you cannot take even a short break at all, for the system screwing you. If you even want to take a lunch break, you can't. You have to wait 5-10 more minutes to stable before you can stop playing. Everyone else pretty much just as to type, ret;ret;exit and they can pause within seconds.)
maybe noone but me cares about this, so i'll shut up about it after this.
But since i've explained my problem with this from the real life angle, let me show this from the character perspective.
i'm an old trader. I get tired. Half way to leth, grassy fields look nice down on the STR. lets park the caravan so we can take a nap, just a couple hours.
sleep.... sleep... sleeep....
Wake up 4 hours later, where's the caravan? Search Search Search, what? its at a stable? Mr. Caravan Driver, what do i pay you for? How long is that attention span that you cannot sit in one place for even the shortest time........
anyways, sure, conserve system resources on thoes idle caravan's. i'm sure there's a hundred of them just sitting around doing nothing.
>>i understand this, its the entire caravan death timer (all aspects about it) thing that hits me.
I agree about caravan deaths, but my understanding is that the new change is that caravans will go to storage (not death) under certain circumstances when the TRADER is dead. The game could use more mechanics where caravans go to storage rather than just die off, so I don't see any problem with the actual part being changed.
It sort of seems irrelevant (how often has anyone ever been sitting there dead next to their caravan for 35 minutes? anyone EVER in the entire history of the game?) - but if GMs want to code it then I don't see how it hurts anything. If anything I would say make the timer way shorter. 35 SECONDS would be plenty long enough for me - if you're dead, the last thing you need to have to worry about is what your caravan is up to, so sending it to storage immediately would only be helpful to the dead Trader
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
I agree about caravan deaths, but my understanding is that the new change is that caravans will go to storage (not death) under certain circumstances when the TRADER is dead. The game could use more mechanics where caravans go to storage rather than just die off, so I don't see any problem with the actual part being changed.
It sort of seems irrelevant (how often has anyone ever been sitting there dead next to their caravan for 35 minutes? anyone EVER in the entire history of the game?) - but if GMs want to code it then I don't see how it hurts anything. If anything I would say make the timer way shorter. 35 SECONDS would be plenty long enough for me - if you're dead, the last thing you need to have to worry about is what your caravan is up to, so sending it to storage immediately would only be helpful to the dead Trader
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
I'll preface this again by saying that the updates I did were a starting point. By cleaning up these mechanics now, it makes it easier to make adjustments, additions and expansions in the future. Few things are ever permanently set in stone, so if something is off, we can examine it and see how to improve it down the line.
>i have to bring this up again, 35 minutes? doesnt that seem a bit quick?
Not really, no. 35 minutes to sit as a corpse is a pretty long time. This mechanic is if YOU are dead; it has nothing to do with the caravan/animal being dead. The mechanics for this existed before I stepped in, but they were broken and not functioning. In cleaning things up, I fixed them to work as they were intended. I'll have a post on old vs new logic in a bit with more info on this.
>This is not normal, Previously, when a caravan is idle from a trader who is logged off, the caravan wanders back to the stable. It does not straight up die in this situtation, (never has before)
There was a conflict with the updated hunger mechanics. Good find. This should be fixed -- if the owner is offline, then the hunger stages 5+ (see below) won't stop the caravan from acting so that the offline timer continues to function.
>(it really annoys me how once you start trading, you cannot take even a short break at all, for the system screwing you
You can take a short break. Hunger isn't a factor for nearly 3 hours. Being offline triggers at 1 hour. You can run to the kitchen and make a sandwich. You can't make a reservation somewhere and then sit through a multi-course meal.
>maybe noone but me cares about this ...
It takes all types to keep this game going. Not everyone likes the same things. Not everyone dislikes the same things. What suggestion can you make to change this specific thing -- not being able to walk away immediately?
Would you pay for a TELL CARAVAN TO GO TO STABLE option? Some other suggestion?
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
>i have to bring this up again, 35 minutes? doesnt that seem a bit quick?
Not really, no. 35 minutes to sit as a corpse is a pretty long time. This mechanic is if YOU are dead; it has nothing to do with the caravan/animal being dead. The mechanics for this existed before I stepped in, but they were broken and not functioning. In cleaning things up, I fixed them to work as they were intended. I'll have a post on old vs new logic in a bit with more info on this.
>This is not normal, Previously, when a caravan is idle from a trader who is logged off, the caravan wanders back to the stable. It does not straight up die in this situtation, (never has before)
There was a conflict with the updated hunger mechanics. Good find. This should be fixed -- if the owner is offline, then the hunger stages 5+ (see below) won't stop the caravan from acting so that the offline timer continues to function.
>(it really annoys me how once you start trading, you cannot take even a short break at all, for the system screwing you
You can take a short break. Hunger isn't a factor for nearly 3 hours. Being offline triggers at 1 hour. You can run to the kitchen and make a sandwich. You can't make a reservation somewhere and then sit through a multi-course meal.
>maybe noone but me cares about this ...
It takes all types to keep this game going. Not everyone likes the same things. Not everyone dislikes the same things. What suggestion can you make to change this specific thing -- not being able to walk away immediately?
Would you pay for a TELL CARAVAN TO GO TO STABLE option? Some other suggestion?
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
>>Would you pay for a TELL CARAVAN TO GO TO STABLE option? Some other suggestion?
I would definitely pay for this! This would be all sorts of awesome as long as it wasn't too high of a fee (maybe 1 gold extra, on top of the 2-4 silver stable fee?)
Also even more awesome would be the ability to call a caravan out of a stable to your current location, where for balance reasons I would limit to only work if you have no crates on the caravan (storage box not included).
These two abilities together would be critical for allowing Traders to use caravans while hunting, which they sort of seem intended for (such as TELL CARAVAN TO SPOOK, plus just storage boxes in general), but without these two abilities it's just way too much of a pain in the ass to use caravans while hunting.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
I would definitely pay for this! This would be all sorts of awesome as long as it wasn't too high of a fee (maybe 1 gold extra, on top of the 2-4 silver stable fee?)
Also even more awesome would be the ability to call a caravan out of a stable to your current location, where for balance reasons I would limit to only work if you have no crates on the caravan (storage box not included).
These two abilities together would be critical for allowing Traders to use caravans while hunting, which they sort of seem intended for (such as TELL CARAVAN TO SPOOK, plus just storage boxes in general), but without these two abilities it's just way too much of a pain in the ass to use caravans while hunting.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>Also even more awesome would be the ability to call a caravan out of a stable to your current location,...
I like the idea, but I worry about caravans ending up in places we may not want them (the Ways, fest shops, etc). I'm sure we could find a way to overcome that concern if this was something we did.
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
I like the idea, but I worry about caravans ending up in places we may not want them (the Ways, fest shops, etc). I'm sure we could find a way to overcome that concern if this was something we did.
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
Is it possible? Yes. I'm on the fence right now if it'd be worth the effort or not. As it is, you can just hand a feedbag over or offer it food directly -- if it isn't hungry, it won't take it. How many people feed without a feedbag? I'm generally a fan of making info available, I'm just not sure how much benefit there would be in this particular case.
Convince me.
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
Convince me.
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
Well for one I use a feedbag but because I'm leading to half of the outposts, or in my interior room, its a pain to remember to feed them without getting reminded by the driver. Half the time I get caught without grass or anything else to feed the caravan and no where to get any! Even though I foraged up to 30 or so grass to fill my feedbag at the beginning of my trade run. I try to remember to feed the caravan after every outpost but I do forget. I'm not perfect. I'd also like to see how hungry they are when I study the caravan. Similar to your post of the various stages of hunger.
If you think it's not worth it I'll understand.
Regards,
Sortny/Braunwen
If you think it's not worth it I'll understand.
Regards,
Sortny/Braunwen
>>How many people feed without a feedbag? I'm generally a fan of making info available, I'm just not sure how much benefit there would be in this particular case.
I always use a feedbag, but I would still definitely take advantage the proposed feature if it was something that doesn't require roundtime to check the caravan's hunger level. It would be alot more efficient to have your script always check hunger level whenever leaving an outpost, and then feed it any time it is below X hunger level than to just feed automatically every time you leave an outpost (which will run you out of food faster, which requires RT to replace)
It wouldn't be a huge change or anything, but if it were coded then I would take advantage of that change (you know, assuming I ever traded contracts, which I actually haven't done in months - but theoretically I would take advantage of the change)
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
I always use a feedbag, but I would still definitely take advantage the proposed feature if it was something that doesn't require roundtime to check the caravan's hunger level. It would be alot more efficient to have your script always check hunger level whenever leaving an outpost, and then feed it any time it is below X hunger level than to just feed automatically every time you leave an outpost (which will run you out of food faster, which requires RT to replace)
It wouldn't be a huge change or anything, but if it were coded then I would take advantage of that change (you know, assuming I ever traded contracts, which I actually haven't done in months - but theoretically I would take advantage of the change)
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>and then feed it any time it is below X hunger level than to just feed automatically every time you leave an outpost (which will run you out of food faster, which requires RT to replace)
How does it use more food? Using imaginary numbers here:
Caravan is at stage 3 hunger, it needs 2 grass to be full. You give your feedbag and it eats those 3 from it and is done.
Caravan is at stage 9 hunger, it needs 8 grass to be full. You give your feedbag and it eats those 9 from it and is done.
Caravan is at stage 1 hunger (full). You give it your feedbag, it eats nothing because it's already full.
I don't understand the running out of food faster bit.
Would it make your scripts more efficient? Sure, you wouldn't need to remove the feedbag and re-wear it. But it's scripted behavior anyways, so how much effect is it going to have?
If I did it, I wouldn't give you "stage x hunger". I'd establish ranges and knock it down to 3-5 messaging options. If it's hungry, it's hungry, you just don't want it getting so hungry that it starts affecting your speeds and movement.
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
How does it use more food? Using imaginary numbers here:
Caravan is at stage 3 hunger, it needs 2 grass to be full. You give your feedbag and it eats those 3 from it and is done.
Caravan is at stage 9 hunger, it needs 8 grass to be full. You give your feedbag and it eats those 9 from it and is done.
Caravan is at stage 1 hunger (full). You give it your feedbag, it eats nothing because it's already full.
I don't understand the running out of food faster bit.
Would it make your scripts more efficient? Sure, you wouldn't need to remove the feedbag and re-wear it. But it's scripted behavior anyways, so how much effect is it going to have?
If I did it, I wouldn't give you "stage x hunger". I'd establish ranges and knock it down to 3-5 messaging options. If it's hungry, it's hungry, you just don't want it getting so hungry that it starts affecting your speeds and movement.
ASGM Zadraes
Logistics Lead
>>How does it use more food? Using imaginary numbers here:
Hm I dunno, I thought it would be less efficient to be constantly feeding it, but you've seen the code and I haven't so I'd assume you know better than me
It isn't a big deal either way - like you said it's scripted behavior so it doesn't particularly matter alot which way you do it.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
Hm I dunno, I thought it would be less efficient to be constantly feeding it, but you've seen the code and I haven't so I'd assume you know better than me
It isn't a big deal either way - like you said it's scripted behavior so it doesn't particularly matter alot which way you do it.
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>>Would you pay for a TELL CARAVAN TO GO TO STABLE option? Some other suggestion?
>I would definitely pay for this! This would be all sorts of awesome as long as it wasn't too high of a fee (maybe 1 gold extra, on top of the 2-4 silver stable fee?)
i would definitely pay for this also. in fact, i would also pay for a hireling to go retrieve my caravan for me.
They could do both
