Previous Thread
Previous
Expand All
Collapse All
Ignore Author
Reply
Any of you guys have any of the lore stowed away about familiars? For some reason, I always thought the spirits from aethereal planes were actually a bit more sentient/intelligent than the warrior mage who summoned it... Or maybe that's just my own perspective. With Armifer and the gang thinking of reworking familiars, I wanted to throw out some suggestions but first wanted to know if they'd have any relation to the current lore behind them.
>>Fam lore does not exist, and where it does it is contradictory.
Here's what we're thinking of running with:
As far as Elanthians comprehend such things, elementals do not have an independent existence outside their manifestations on the Plane of Abiding. The Elemental Planes are (with one noteworthy exception) without space, time, and other such trivalities that we consider important for such things as "being" and "individuality." They are, nothing more and nothing less, than the platonic ideal of their element.
A familiar or elemental's individual existence is tied into the talisman. The talisman shapes the manifestation, giving it not only form but possibly consistency as well over summons. In contrast, the essence or "soul" of the creature is transient: you scoop up a handful of elemental essence to define your familiar, and when you're done with it the spirit deforms and mingles again with the waters of its birth. A familiar that gains any sort of self-awareness would, if it doesn't succumb to a crippling case of existentialism, consider the talisman to be the center of its being.
This is, however, entirely based on the notion of "as Elanthians comprehend such things." The planes, if nothing else, love to screw with people who think they know how alien worlds operate.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Here's what we're thinking of running with:
As far as Elanthians comprehend such things, elementals do not have an independent existence outside their manifestations on the Plane of Abiding. The Elemental Planes are (with one noteworthy exception) without space, time, and other such trivalities that we consider important for such things as "being" and "individuality." They are, nothing more and nothing less, than the platonic ideal of their element.
A familiar or elemental's individual existence is tied into the talisman. The talisman shapes the manifestation, giving it not only form but possibly consistency as well over summons. In contrast, the essence or "soul" of the creature is transient: you scoop up a handful of elemental essence to define your familiar, and when you're done with it the spirit deforms and mingles again with the waters of its birth. A familiar that gains any sort of self-awareness would, if it doesn't succumb to a crippling case of existentialism, consider the talisman to be the center of its being.
This is, however, entirely based on the notion of "as Elanthians comprehend such things." The planes, if nothing else, love to screw with people who think they know how alien worlds operate.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
>A familiar that gains any sort of self-awareness would, if it doesn't succumb to a crippling case of existentialism, consider the talisman to be the center of its being.
This doesn't seem to be entirely in synch my understanding of the rules that were given for familiar alterations, which seemed to imply a lot more sentience to familiars.
Or is it more along the lines of "they think and are sentient, but not in the same ways as the fleshy things of this plane?"
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
This doesn't seem to be entirely in synch my understanding of the rules that were given for familiar alterations, which seemed to imply a lot more sentience to familiars.
Or is it more along the lines of "they think and are sentient, but not in the same ways as the fleshy things of this plane?"
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
>>This doesn't seem to be entirely in synch my understanding of the rules that were given for familiar alterations, which seemed to imply a lot more sentience to familiars.
Short answer: that was before we were thinking about this approach.
Retcon answer: alterations are, by definition, a change in the appearance of a pre-existing talisman, with a pre-existing self-identity. When the self-identity and the altered appearance comes into conflict, the spirit comes into coherence just far enough to say "oh Hell no" and dissipates itself.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Short answer: that was before we were thinking about this approach.
Retcon answer: alterations are, by definition, a change in the appearance of a pre-existing talisman, with a pre-existing self-identity. When the self-identity and the altered appearance comes into conflict, the spirit comes into coherence just far enough to say "oh Hell no" and dissipates itself.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
>>I was hoping at some point, for the sake of simplicity and easier access, we would explore options of familiars without talismans.
There's a book and quest on why that's bad... It could change though.
>>This is, however, entirely based on the notion of "as Elanthians comprehend such things." The planes, if nothing else, love to screw with people who think they know how alien worlds operate
wonder if that applies to the void lord. That mean the planes have a sentience as far as we can understand it? Or is that more like don't play with fire?
Almost sounds like build a bear filled with primordial aetheral goop.
_________________________________
"like POWERHAUS said"
- GM Solomon
There's a book and quest on why that's bad... It could change though.
>>This is, however, entirely based on the notion of "as Elanthians comprehend such things." The planes, if nothing else, love to screw with people who think they know how alien worlds operate
wonder if that applies to the void lord. That mean the planes have a sentience as far as we can understand it? Or is that more like don't play with fire?
Almost sounds like build a bear filled with primordial aetheral goop.
_________________________________
"like POWERHAUS said"
- GM Solomon
I like that you have a dynamic where Moon Mages impose order on irrational things giving them a name, and War Mages do so by giving them a shape.
But yeah basically any lore on familiars is going to retcon something, mostly because what's there is so contradictory.
I especially like the book that says they're not from the plane of aether. Not even one of the dusty, confused old volumes either, I don't think.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
But yeah basically any lore on familiars is going to retcon something, mostly because what's there is so contradictory.
I especially like the book that says they're not from the plane of aether. Not even one of the dusty, confused old volumes either, I don't think.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
Ok, after re-reading the Treatise Volumes, the book about spirits and spirituality, the teachings of Oxfre Pepel, and whatever other lore I could find, I don't see the contradictions that are so prevalent. I'm curious whether we should fully change the lore behind it, or just add to existing, and flesh out some of the more vital information.
>>I like that you have a dynamic where Moon Mages impose order on irrational things giving them a name, and War Mages do so by giving them a shape.
This just doesn't sit well, because you have to consider the Haemonculi experiments. After all those AP quests, the correlation is relatively clear as to the history behind them. I just hate to see the whole story idea trashed because I fairly enjoyed it. A definitive, forced shape decided upon by the caster shouldn't be allowed/acceptable to the guild as an institution. As an ability learned not from the guild-leaders, this could be really cool. Learned from, lets say, the familiars themselves?
However, if we are going to be taking a totally new direction from our current lore, what will happen to the lore we have now? Will books have to be re-written to change the lore to be less contradicting, new studies added to disprove the texts we already have, or something along those lines? I like the new approach; it seems like it could still support the studies and writings from the GCMH.
>>I like that you have a dynamic where Moon Mages impose order on irrational things giving them a name, and War Mages do so by giving them a shape.
This just doesn't sit well, because you have to consider the Haemonculi experiments. After all those AP quests, the correlation is relatively clear as to the history behind them. I just hate to see the whole story idea trashed because I fairly enjoyed it. A definitive, forced shape decided upon by the caster shouldn't be allowed/acceptable to the guild as an institution. As an ability learned not from the guild-leaders, this could be really cool. Learned from, lets say, the familiars themselves?
However, if we are going to be taking a totally new direction from our current lore, what will happen to the lore we have now? Will books have to be re-written to change the lore to be less contradicting, new studies added to disprove the texts we already have, or something along those lines? I like the new approach; it seems like it could still support the studies and writings from the GCMH.
>>In contrast, the essence or "soul" of the creature is transient: you scoop up a handful of elemental essence to define your familiar, and when you're done with it the spirit deforms and mingles again with the waters of its birth. A familiar that gains any sort of self-awareness would, if it doesn't succumb to a crippling case of existentialism, consider the talisman to be the center of its being.
Does that mean WMs who RP their familiars as secondary characters or with personalities are Doing It Wrong? I always liked that approach.
~Thilan
Does that mean WMs who RP their familiars as secondary characters or with personalities are Doing It Wrong? I always liked that approach.
~Thilan
A decade ago a GM used to possess my fat cat daily and make it dance, make fun of me, or ignore me and wander off. We always blamed the gremlin that also harrassed us.
I always felt it was a 'thing' acting like it's form until we command it. They're also curious and are probably investigating our plane with new senses.
I'll talk to my pard, but I'm sure it won't talk back.
Some people talk to it like they're talking to me, others treat it like it's own personality, a talking cat. That's fine with me, and I usually have a lot of fun portraying my pard as a cranky old cat.
Since I can force my will on my familiar, might as well let them think that. And Power's more than a little 'off', so an extension of him might be what some consider another personality. Might even explain the stupid fat cat's antics too.
_________________________________
"like POWERHAUS said"
- GM Solomon
I always felt it was a 'thing' acting like it's form until we command it. They're also curious and are probably investigating our plane with new senses.
I'll talk to my pard, but I'm sure it won't talk back.
Some people talk to it like they're talking to me, others treat it like it's own personality, a talking cat. That's fine with me, and I usually have a lot of fun portraying my pard as a cranky old cat.
Since I can force my will on my familiar, might as well let them think that. And Power's more than a little 'off', so an extension of him might be what some consider another personality. Might even explain the stupid fat cat's antics too.
_________________________________
"like POWERHAUS said"
- GM Solomon
>>I like that you have a dynamic where Moon Mages impose order on irrational things giving them a name, and War Mages do so by giving them a shape.
Good catch. Elementalists and Lunar Mages are far removed from the Divine, the creative potential of existence, and instead focus on physical laws and structure where meaning is created by the magician-scientist who is theorizing and observing a largely incidental world. Elementalists do it "right," insofar as they observe and manipulate a universe that remains mostly comprehendable, while Lunar Mages go beyond structure and find Cthulhu-analog waiting for them in the depths Man Wasn't Meant To Know.
In contrast when we talk about Life and Holy Mages, we appeal to notions of active god-beings and a natural teleology (directly opposed to Moon Mages, who consider that a naughty word). The Immortals demand, nature requires, Empathy prohibits, and so on.
>>Does that mean WMs who RP their familiars as secondary characters or with personalities are Doing It Wrong? I always liked that approach.
No? The idea provides an escape hatch that the talisman provides some consistency over manifestations that could lead to self-awareness.
A really geeky example of this kind of life, that I'm ashamed that I just thought of, would be the Doctor from Star Trek: Voyager. In a very real way he stops existing when you turn him off, but the pattern / program endures from one session to the next and can theoretically culminate in personality (though one that has a decidedly different outlook on death and being than we do).
>>This just doesn't sit well, because you have to consider the Haemonculi experiments. After all those AP quests, the correlation is relatively clear as to the history behind them. I just hate to see the whole story idea trashed because I fairly enjoyed it.
Bear in mind that in the midst of "Of Spirits and Spirituality," the author digresses from discussing his neat and orderly hierarchy of kinds to essentially divide Elanthians between the Master Races and the Mud Races. The nice thing about Elanthian books is there's often an insane current of subtext to be read into them.
Even if we accept that the book isn't IC gibberish on the circumstantial evidence, there's nothing in it that would explicitly conflict with this retcon. Elemental creatures will still exist out in the wild, it describes unformed aether elementals as "cruel" (which itself contrasts other stuff, but the 'unbound aether elementals are Bad' thing is consistent enough to get a pass), and finally arrives at an ethical dilemma around undefined "unwholesome shapes" which we independently touched on with the fam alteration stuff.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Good catch. Elementalists and Lunar Mages are far removed from the Divine, the creative potential of existence, and instead focus on physical laws and structure where meaning is created by the magician-scientist who is theorizing and observing a largely incidental world. Elementalists do it "right," insofar as they observe and manipulate a universe that remains mostly comprehendable, while Lunar Mages go beyond structure and find Cthulhu-analog waiting for them in the depths Man Wasn't Meant To Know.
In contrast when we talk about Life and Holy Mages, we appeal to notions of active god-beings and a natural teleology (directly opposed to Moon Mages, who consider that a naughty word). The Immortals demand, nature requires, Empathy prohibits, and so on.
>>Does that mean WMs who RP their familiars as secondary characters or with personalities are Doing It Wrong? I always liked that approach.
No? The idea provides an escape hatch that the talisman provides some consistency over manifestations that could lead to self-awareness.
A really geeky example of this kind of life, that I'm ashamed that I just thought of, would be the Doctor from Star Trek: Voyager. In a very real way he stops existing when you turn him off, but the pattern / program endures from one session to the next and can theoretically culminate in personality (though one that has a decidedly different outlook on death and being than we do).
>>This just doesn't sit well, because you have to consider the Haemonculi experiments. After all those AP quests, the correlation is relatively clear as to the history behind them. I just hate to see the whole story idea trashed because I fairly enjoyed it.
Bear in mind that in the midst of "Of Spirits and Spirituality," the author digresses from discussing his neat and orderly hierarchy of kinds to essentially divide Elanthians between the Master Races and the Mud Races. The nice thing about Elanthian books is there's often an insane current of subtext to be read into them.
Even if we accept that the book isn't IC gibberish on the circumstantial evidence, there's nothing in it that would explicitly conflict with this retcon. Elemental creatures will still exist out in the wild, it describes unformed aether elementals as "cruel" (which itself contrasts other stuff, but the 'unbound aether elementals are Bad' thing is consistent enough to get a pass), and finally arrives at an ethical dilemma around undefined "unwholesome shapes" which we independently touched on with the fam alteration stuff.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Familiars rub up against people, and other types of interactions. That seems like they are possessed of some self awareness or independent thought, or even limited intelligence. Maybe even go as far as to say certain wants or needs? I haven't thought more about really when it comes to them other than 'what do I need it to do for me?'.
I think I see where you're coming from Armifer. Basically, thee isn't a 'someone' inside the familiar. The fact that a familiar/elemental may have life-like tendencies, such as looking at or rubbing against people, wouldn't necessarily mean an individual spirit inhabited it at all. The familiar/elemental would perform these actions because in some form or fashion the 'shape' given for them to occupy includes some basic functions that will be performed to appear living. In other words, the shape taken is 'pre-programmed' by the summoner to do things that makes you think it is what it appears to be.
In that case, the author of the book that refers to them as actual creatures (calling their treatment "cruel") would basically have just given them personification.
Yeah, some serious retcon there, but it works. I've got some ideas I might pitch out if you guys are still in the conceptual phases.
In that case, the author of the book that refers to them as actual creatures (calling their treatment "cruel") would basically have just given them personification.
Yeah, some serious retcon there, but it works. I've got some ideas I might pitch out if you guys are still in the conceptual phases.
Don't forget the lore beyond books: Guildeaders, and quests.
Guildleader familiars tend to be highly personified... as well as doing odd things like Augrym's four(!) summoned familiars. The AP quests are just a trip with familiar oddness. . . the familiar crafting quests are just odd. What's up with the holy requirement?
The AP quests might be the first in-game reference to familiars-as-aether-spirits. Previous in-game lore was that they weren't.
I suppose the one consistent thread you can pull from all the various sources is that War-Mage related elemental summonings tend to be highly personified, and other elementals are murderously insane.
Giving your elemental a personality might be an important step in keeping it from trying to kill everything?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
Guildleader familiars tend to be highly personified... as well as doing odd things like Augrym's four(!) summoned familiars. The AP quests are just a trip with familiar oddness. . . the familiar crafting quests are just odd. What's up with the holy requirement?
The AP quests might be the first in-game reference to familiars-as-aether-spirits. Previous in-game lore was that they weren't.
I suppose the one consistent thread you can pull from all the various sources is that War-Mage related elemental summonings tend to be highly personified, and other elementals are murderously insane.
Giving your elemental a personality might be an important step in keeping it from trying to kill everything?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
>Giving your elemental a personality might be an important step in keeping it from trying to kill everything?
Stop giving them personality!
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Stop giving them personality!
"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
>>That seems like they are possessed of some self awareness or independent thought, or even limited intelligence.
The hierarchy doesn't quite work that way. Most animals have varying degrees of "limited intelligence", but almost none of them are self-aware. Virtually all of them have independent thought.
IIRC, the standard familiar tropes are that a wizard magically attracts an extremely high-quality specimen and enhances it. That's almost certainly where the original design for WM familiars come from, but in DR, that kind of thing steps on like... 4 different guilds' turfs.
The hierarchy doesn't quite work that way. Most animals have varying degrees of "limited intelligence", but almost none of them are self-aware. Virtually all of them have independent thought.
IIRC, the standard familiar tropes are that a wizard magically attracts an extremely high-quality specimen and enhances it. That's almost certainly where the original design for WM familiars come from, but in DR, that kind of thing steps on like... 4 different guilds' turfs.
>That's almost certainly where the original design for WM familiars come from...
WM familiars are a Gemstone spell, which was more of the 'call an existing animal' sort, but in DR they're always more-or-less been summoned from nothing and been slightly off.
Plus whatever the heck a spirit dragon was.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
WM familiars are a Gemstone spell, which was more of the 'call an existing animal' sort, but in DR they're always more-or-less been summoned from nothing and been slightly off.
Plus whatever the heck a spirit dragon was.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
>>Yeah, some serious retcon there, but it works. I've got some ideas I might pitch out if you guys are still in the conceptual phases.
We are. I'm not shy about retcon when appropriate, but I am interesting in coming up with an approach that does as little as possible while still providing a clear understand of who/what/why.
When it comes to familiars, it's impossible to not retcon something so we have a degree of latitude when it comes to figuring out which bits to emphasize and which to paint as mistaken approaches.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
We are. I'm not shy about retcon when appropriate, but I am interesting in coming up with an approach that does as little as possible while still providing a clear understand of who/what/why.
When it comes to familiars, it's impossible to not retcon something so we have a degree of latitude when it comes to figuring out which bits to emphasize and which to paint as mistaken approaches.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
>>It seems fir familiars would have to be more than somewhat intelligent and self aware if only because they choose to help a mage when they're stunned.
<rubs head>
Self-awareness is the ability to recognize yourself when you look in the mirror. It's a prerequisite for introspection, mostly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
Dogs pulling people out of burning buildings is not an example of self-awareness. Nor fir familiars dragging their stunned masters.
As for intelligence, you can use whatever adjectives you like to describe it if it makes you feel better. I have yet to see a definition anywhere that I fully agree with.
>>Plus whatever the heck a spirit dragon was.
It's never really been clear whether or not dragons actually exist. Did something actually come out of Grazhir? We're only sure that it exploded and around the same time a golden moon went black. And thus, what was it actually that Glacis and co. were mimicking?
I mean, sure, they're in lore. But they're in Earth lore, too. And sometimes we're even somewhat sure they're metaphors.
<rubs head>
Self-awareness is the ability to recognize yourself when you look in the mirror. It's a prerequisite for introspection, mostly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
Dogs pulling people out of burning buildings is not an example of self-awareness. Nor fir familiars dragging their stunned masters.
As for intelligence, you can use whatever adjectives you like to describe it if it makes you feel better. I have yet to see a definition anywhere that I fully agree with.
>>Plus whatever the heck a spirit dragon was.
It's never really been clear whether or not dragons actually exist. Did something actually come out of Grazhir? We're only sure that it exploded and around the same time a golden moon went black. And thus, what was it actually that Glacis and co. were mimicking?
I mean, sure, they're in lore. But they're in Earth lore, too. And sometimes we're even somewhat sure they're metaphors.
I always figured the grazhir dragon was real, since we have the whole immortals, magic, and resurrection thing, stretches like that... fantasy world allows for fantasy things. I'd like to say metaphor, but i'm sure a GM would drop dragon poop on us from above to prove otherwise.
The science part of me says, if the moon wasn't a hollow dragon egg, there'd be far more and larger chunks of the Grazhir out there, possibly with shattered moon parts still floating in our orbit. As well as traces of Tunguska-style events all over Elanthia(the shards probably wouldn't have that much time to break apart in orbit)- but I'm not an astrologer, so I may be talking out my ass here.
I also remember a dragon used to fly around on occasion and you could see or sense it pass by overhead on occasion.(though i might be crazy on this- was either shard or knife clan, maybe both- long ago)
I asked a buttload of people about spirit dragons, one mentor said he heard from a GM(a long long long time ago) that they were intended to be big pets that kill and we could maybe ride, but nothing was ever followed up on it or done with it, and there was no mention other than the old in-game Help menu on what a warrior mage was. His information was just a vague.
I don't think the self-awarness is like what we consider it, I think it'd be more like a baby learning that it can interact with things and cause effects, and pretty much everything is a new concept(time, 5 senses, probably not emotions or feelins). Not the "i'm sorry dave, I can't do that", kill-the-master self-awareness. The way Armifer states it, the beings sound more simple than complex in generalized terms.
_________________________________
"like POWERHAUS said"
- GM Solomon
The science part of me says, if the moon wasn't a hollow dragon egg, there'd be far more and larger chunks of the Grazhir out there, possibly with shattered moon parts still floating in our orbit. As well as traces of Tunguska-style events all over Elanthia(the shards probably wouldn't have that much time to break apart in orbit)- but I'm not an astrologer, so I may be talking out my ass here.
I also remember a dragon used to fly around on occasion and you could see or sense it pass by overhead on occasion.(though i might be crazy on this- was either shard or knife clan, maybe both- long ago)
I asked a buttload of people about spirit dragons, one mentor said he heard from a GM(a long long long time ago) that they were intended to be big pets that kill and we could maybe ride, but nothing was ever followed up on it or done with it, and there was no mention other than the old in-game Help menu on what a warrior mage was. His information was just a vague.
I don't think the self-awarness is like what we consider it, I think it'd be more like a baby learning that it can interact with things and cause effects, and pretty much everything is a new concept(time, 5 senses, probably not emotions or feelins). Not the "i'm sorry dave, I can't do that", kill-the-master self-awareness. The way Armifer states it, the beings sound more simple than complex in generalized terms.
_________________________________
"like POWERHAUS said"
- GM Solomon
oh yeah...
the constructs in the Guild target ranges:
The attendents summon them with talismans.
Would those be examples of elemental spirits? or a possibility of what summoning might do for us (simple easily destroyed earth constructs that don't do anything but die). Or is that just a weird quirk, better left unexplained?
_________________________________
"like POWERHAUS said"
- GM Solomon
the constructs in the Guild target ranges:
The attendents summon them with talismans.
Would those be examples of elemental spirits? or a possibility of what summoning might do for us (simple easily destroyed earth constructs that don't do anything but die). Or is that just a weird quirk, better left unexplained?
_________________________________
"like POWERHAUS said"
- GM Solomon
>>The science part of me says, if the moon wasn't a hollow dragon egg, there'd be far more and larger chunks of the Grazhir out there, possibly with shattered moon parts still floating in our orbit. As well as traces of Tunguska-style events all over Elanthia(the shards probably wouldn't have that much time to break apart in orbit)- but I'm not an astrologer, so I may be talking out my ass here.
If the moon, hollow or not, fell on Elanthia, that would've been The End. The planet would have deformed under the impact, quite possibly ejected another, smaller moon in the process, and the planet's geologic clock would've been reset. Not impossible (it happened to the Earth), but you wouldn't get any sort of relics of the ancient past that Elanthians find wandering around.
Whether or not you believe in the dragon, if you take the story as remotely historical you get the picture that Grazhir exploded, cracked or otherwise disintegrated. This is still not remotely healthy, but depending on exactly what and how it's within the realm of possibility that most of the energy and debris went the other way, leaving Elanthia with a more traditional asteroid apocalypse.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
If the moon, hollow or not, fell on Elanthia, that would've been The End. The planet would have deformed under the impact, quite possibly ejected another, smaller moon in the process, and the planet's geologic clock would've been reset. Not impossible (it happened to the Earth), but you wouldn't get any sort of relics of the ancient past that Elanthians find wandering around.
Whether or not you believe in the dragon, if you take the story as remotely historical you get the picture that Grazhir exploded, cracked or otherwise disintegrated. This is still not remotely healthy, but depending on exactly what and how it's within the realm of possibility that most of the energy and debris went the other way, leaving Elanthia with a more traditional asteroid apocalypse.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
>>I always figured the grazhir dragon was real, since we have the whole immortals, magic, and resurrection thing, stretches like that... fantasy world allows for fantasy things. I'd like to say metaphor, but i'm sure a GM would drop dragon poop on us from above to prove otherwise.
It's not like I'm questioning the existence of gryphons or elemental mages or gods: these things are established as certain fact by what passes for empirical evidence in the text game. The World Dragon is not. The only reason we think it exists is because a bunch of old books says it does. And none of them have reliable eyewitnesses.
And this event happened while Elanthia was well-populated, too. Yet there are virtually no known legends about the battle in the sky: the only reference I even know about is the Rakash orally-passed story about "one day the moon went black and we went human". No dragon in that story.
>>The science part of me says, if the moon wasn't a hollow dragon egg, there'd be far more and larger chunks of the Grazhir out there, possibly with shattered moon parts still floating in our orbit. As well as traces of Tunguska-style events all over Elanthia(the shards probably wouldn't have that much time to break apart in orbit)- but I'm not an astrologer, so I may be talking out my ass here.
Actually that's also an argument for metaphor: since when have you seen an egg hatch with an explosion? ALL of the moon should have fallen to Elanthia and it would have been an global extinction-level event: way bigger than Tunguska. There would be a dent in the planet. Yet again, there is absolutely no mention in any literature we have access to.
<shrugs> It's twistable.
>>I also remember a dragon used to fly around on occasion and you could see or sense it pass by overhead on occasion.(though i might be crazy on this- was either shard or knife clan, maybe both- long ago)
I think that was one of the Heralds, which is not really a dragon, but something that took a form that was inspired by the World Dragon because that was the scariest thing in all creation that Elanthians could think of.
Anyways, digressing. =P
>>I asked a buttload of people about spirit dragons, one mentor said he heard from a GM(a long long long time ago) that they were intended to be big pets that kill and we could maybe ride, but nothing was ever followed up on it or done with it, and there was no mention other than the old in-game Help menu on what a warrior mage was. His information was just a vague.
Yeah, I remember the description about warrior mages having dragons as familiars. I suspect that was the original intention, and then they remembered there were other guilds in this game. That was back when ES stood for Elemental Shield. According to the same doc.
>>self-awareness
Saying familiars don't have self-awareness isn't an insult or a nerf. Really. It's not. You guys don't actually need to protest it.
Shadowlings and zombies are probably not self-aware either.
It's not like I'm questioning the existence of gryphons or elemental mages or gods: these things are established as certain fact by what passes for empirical evidence in the text game. The World Dragon is not. The only reason we think it exists is because a bunch of old books says it does. And none of them have reliable eyewitnesses.
And this event happened while Elanthia was well-populated, too. Yet there are virtually no known legends about the battle in the sky: the only reference I even know about is the Rakash orally-passed story about "one day the moon went black and we went human". No dragon in that story.
>>The science part of me says, if the moon wasn't a hollow dragon egg, there'd be far more and larger chunks of the Grazhir out there, possibly with shattered moon parts still floating in our orbit. As well as traces of Tunguska-style events all over Elanthia(the shards probably wouldn't have that much time to break apart in orbit)- but I'm not an astrologer, so I may be talking out my ass here.
Actually that's also an argument for metaphor: since when have you seen an egg hatch with an explosion? ALL of the moon should have fallen to Elanthia and it would have been an global extinction-level event: way bigger than Tunguska. There would be a dent in the planet. Yet again, there is absolutely no mention in any literature we have access to.
<shrugs> It's twistable.
>>I also remember a dragon used to fly around on occasion and you could see or sense it pass by overhead on occasion.(though i might be crazy on this- was either shard or knife clan, maybe both- long ago)
I think that was one of the Heralds, which is not really a dragon, but something that took a form that was inspired by the World Dragon because that was the scariest thing in all creation that Elanthians could think of.
Anyways, digressing. =P
>>I asked a buttload of people about spirit dragons, one mentor said he heard from a GM(a long long long time ago) that they were intended to be big pets that kill and we could maybe ride, but nothing was ever followed up on it or done with it, and there was no mention other than the old in-game Help menu on what a warrior mage was. His information was just a vague.
Yeah, I remember the description about warrior mages having dragons as familiars. I suspect that was the original intention, and then they remembered there were other guilds in this game. That was back when ES stood for Elemental Shield. According to the same doc.
>>self-awareness
Saying familiars don't have self-awareness isn't an insult or a nerf. Really. It's not. You guys don't actually need to protest it.
Shadowlings and zombies are probably not self-aware either.
Devan, If you will refer to the original post 8012 by CRAVYD he was asking about any lore behind the familiars, and since others adrressed what lore was to be found (or not) regarding the subject, I wanted to post my thoughts as they seemed along the lines of what his take on familiars was.
The intelligence part should be easy enough to understand seeing as you can't train them and they aren't a natural animal. If it makes you feel better Devan, think of it like they must have at least some independent intelligence to figure out what you want from it. Additionally, I would suggest you read up on the concept and theory of self awareness beyond Wikipedia to better educate yourself on the subject.
The reason I use the term 'self-awareness' is because it is the closest I can come to explaining why I see the familiar behaving as it does in the game as I see it.
So if a familiar acts without the direction of a mage I see that as, per my original post, "some self awareness or independent thought, or even limited intelligence". I would argue that a familiar being able to recognize it's ability to affect a desired outcome by chosing its actions as an indication of some self awareness. All of this based on what can't be instinct, training or learned behavior but rather as a combination of intelligence and some self awareness in order to act as an individual entity within an enviroment in recognition of other beings. As this relates to fir familiars:
1. It realizes the mage is in trouble.
2. It desires to help.
3. It realizes it has the ability to change the situation.
4. It thinks how to help.
4. It chooses to act.
I can see how one might want to compare it to a dog. Certain familiar actions seem to enforce that notion, they rub up against people, yawn, lay down, and generally fidget around like a mundane animal and do so independent of command. I certainly don't mean to imply the full self awareness that humans enjoy(?)based on this however, Some self awareness and intellignence as the basis for certain actions and perhaps even a familiars willingness to comply with requests doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Hell, maybe when the mage rubbed the talisman he imparted a portion of what is his 'self' into the talisman to draw upon as a psychological template for the aethereal essence.
I guess I should have put all that into my original post but didn't feel it necessary at the time.
<<A familiar that gains any sort of self-awareness would, if it doesn't succumb to a crippling case of existentialism, consider the talisman to be the center of its being. -Armifer
I guess self awareness is possible but is likely very different than what a higher sentient being experiences.
I used to think of familiars as being somewhat like Drizzt's cat Guenhwyvar(sp?) who has a moral code and if pushed too far from that code will disobey.
Remember that this is the way that I've thought of familiars in the game and obviously others disagree. If a GM could nail down all the intricacies that'd be great. In the meantime I'll play with familiars some more. This is likely my last post on the subject, but I'll continue to follow the thread.
The intelligence part should be easy enough to understand seeing as you can't train them and they aren't a natural animal. If it makes you feel better Devan, think of it like they must have at least some independent intelligence to figure out what you want from it. Additionally, I would suggest you read up on the concept and theory of self awareness beyond Wikipedia to better educate yourself on the subject.
The reason I use the term 'self-awareness' is because it is the closest I can come to explaining why I see the familiar behaving as it does in the game as I see it.
So if a familiar acts without the direction of a mage I see that as, per my original post, "some self awareness or independent thought, or even limited intelligence". I would argue that a familiar being able to recognize it's ability to affect a desired outcome by chosing its actions as an indication of some self awareness. All of this based on what can't be instinct, training or learned behavior but rather as a combination of intelligence and some self awareness in order to act as an individual entity within an enviroment in recognition of other beings. As this relates to fir familiars:
1. It realizes the mage is in trouble.
2. It desires to help.
3. It realizes it has the ability to change the situation.
4. It thinks how to help.
4. It chooses to act.
I can see how one might want to compare it to a dog. Certain familiar actions seem to enforce that notion, they rub up against people, yawn, lay down, and generally fidget around like a mundane animal and do so independent of command. I certainly don't mean to imply the full self awareness that humans enjoy(?)based on this however, Some self awareness and intellignence as the basis for certain actions and perhaps even a familiars willingness to comply with requests doesn't seem like such a stretch to me. Hell, maybe when the mage rubbed the talisman he imparted a portion of what is his 'self' into the talisman to draw upon as a psychological template for the aethereal essence.
I guess I should have put all that into my original post but didn't feel it necessary at the time.
<<A familiar that gains any sort of self-awareness would, if it doesn't succumb to a crippling case of existentialism, consider the talisman to be the center of its being. -Armifer
I guess self awareness is possible but is likely very different than what a higher sentient being experiences.
I used to think of familiars as being somewhat like Drizzt's cat Guenhwyvar(sp?) who has a moral code and if pushed too far from that code will disobey.
Remember that this is the way that I've thought of familiars in the game and obviously others disagree. If a GM could nail down all the intricacies that'd be great. In the meantime I'll play with familiars some more. This is likely my last post on the subject, but I'll continue to follow the thread.
I liked the previous idea that the familiars were independently existing spirits who were participating in the elemental planes' adopt-a-warrior-mage program for their own ineffable reasons. I'm kinda sad to see that go the way of the retcon.
>>Saying familiars don't have self-awareness isn't an insult or a nerf. Really. It's not. You guys don't actually need to protest it.
Not to mechanical gameplay, but it does close a number of doors in RP.
I used to play my familiar as an independent entity, and enjoyed doing that, but eventually stopped due to the uncertainty over whether or not it broke lore, and the requirement that I hold a talisman every time he did something (it breaks the illusion that the familiar is independent when you can always see the warrior mage pulling the strings.)
Anyways, Armifer's already clarified that he's trying to leave the door open for sentience and self-awareness in familiars.
>>That's almost certainly where the original design for WM familiars come from, but in DR, that kind of thing steps on like... 4 different guilds' turfs.
I think there's a good argument to be made that they stepped on our turf first. Familiars have a long history of ridiculously slow development, broken promises, declining uniqueness and usefulness, and things that were promised for familiars but then given to someone else instead.
I'm not bitter. Why do you ask?
>>Saying familiars don't have self-awareness isn't an insult or a nerf. Really. It's not. You guys don't actually need to protest it.
Not to mechanical gameplay, but it does close a number of doors in RP.
I used to play my familiar as an independent entity, and enjoyed doing that, but eventually stopped due to the uncertainty over whether or not it broke lore, and the requirement that I hold a talisman every time he did something (it breaks the illusion that the familiar is independent when you can always see the warrior mage pulling the strings.)
Anyways, Armifer's already clarified that he's trying to leave the door open for sentience and self-awareness in familiars.
>>That's almost certainly where the original design for WM familiars come from, but in DR, that kind of thing steps on like... 4 different guilds' turfs.
I think there's a good argument to be made that they stepped on our turf first. Familiars have a long history of ridiculously slow development, broken promises, declining uniqueness and usefulness, and things that were promised for familiars but then given to someone else instead.
I'm not bitter. Why do you ask?
World dragon - post log or it didn't happen. check
You lost me at Rakash...
I figure the shockwave of a moon hatching would kill everything that was able to witness it before pieces ever fell to the planet. So no eyewitnesses.
Dragons, guardians, immortals. Ok, but canada's just as american as mexico.
HELP still tells me to BRAWL too. My spirit dragon casts MES and strobe as well.
Someone tell Jaedren to kill Gauthus so we can retcon our guild lore already...
I've been enjoying these threads lately, thanks for chiming in Armifer.
_________________________________
"like POWERHAUS said"
- GM Solomon
You lost me at Rakash...
I figure the shockwave of a moon hatching would kill everything that was able to witness it before pieces ever fell to the planet. So no eyewitnesses.
Dragons, guardians, immortals. Ok, but canada's just as american as mexico.
HELP still tells me to BRAWL too. My spirit dragon casts MES and strobe as well.
Someone tell Jaedren to kill Gauthus so we can retcon our guild lore already...
I've been enjoying these threads lately, thanks for chiming in Armifer.
_________________________________
"like POWERHAUS said"
- GM Solomon
>>Anyways, Armifer's already clarified that he's trying to leave the door open for sentience and self-awareness in familiars.
Emphasis this.
The intent, first and foremost, is to depict familiars as a radically different form of existence than the one Elanthians are used to. This is part of the overarching emphasis in DragonRealms that the other planes of reality are very freaky and not just "Earth, but on fire."
The secondary intent is to allow familiars to be depicted broadly, either as gerbil puppets or willful creatures. It strikes me as more artistic to define familiars as starting as puppets with the potential to build up a personality, rather than introduce planar lobotomies.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Emphasis this.
The intent, first and foremost, is to depict familiars as a radically different form of existence than the one Elanthians are used to. This is part of the overarching emphasis in DragonRealms that the other planes of reality are very freaky and not just "Earth, but on fire."
The secondary intent is to allow familiars to be depicted broadly, either as gerbil puppets or willful creatures. It strikes me as more artistic to define familiars as starting as puppets with the potential to build up a personality, rather than introduce planar lobotomies.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
ugh. There is no guild turf. Stop talking about guild turf.
Guild turf wars just make all the guilds less cool. half the current problems with pet systems in DR were created by guild turf staredowns locking up development avenues. The companion/familiar stalemate basically turned into an excuse to not even try to develop either.
Warmage-grade combat pets for WMs aren't a bad idea because they step on someone's toes, they're a bad idea because they're redundant.
The only combat utility we need out of Famliars is the cool factor, we should have more than plenty of kill-you-dead factor without our familiar out.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
Guild turf wars just make all the guilds less cool. half the current problems with pet systems in DR were created by guild turf staredowns locking up development avenues. The companion/familiar stalemate basically turned into an excuse to not even try to develop either.
Warmage-grade combat pets for WMs aren't a bad idea because they step on someone's toes, they're a bad idea because they're redundant.
The only combat utility we need out of Famliars is the cool factor, we should have more than plenty of kill-you-dead factor without our familiar out.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
>I also remember a dragon used to fly around on occasion and you could see or sense it pass by overhead on occasion.(though i might be crazy on this- was either shard or knife clan, maybe both- long ago)
Any chance you're thinking of the mechanical "dragon" from the Gnome quest?
~ Pansophist Kougen
Knowledge is not power. Power is a trinket, a mere bauble, a distraction. Knowledge is an end unto itself.
Any chance you're thinking of the mechanical "dragon" from the Gnome quest?
~ Pansophist Kougen
Knowledge is not power. Power is a trinket, a mere bauble, a distraction. Knowledge is an end unto itself.
<<>I also remember a dragon used to fly around on occasion and you could see or sense it pass by overhead on occasion.(though i might be crazy on this- was either shard or knife clan, maybe both- long ago)
<<Any chance you're thinking of the mechanical "dragon" from the Gnome quest?
I remember a dragon too. I think it was one of the Heralds, specifically Sildua.
"He has one lair behind the falls of the Erlinilaya southeast of Shard, and another in the hills above Knife Clan. He can occasionally be seen flying directly over the Crossing, and once used a gwethdesuan to mock the tiny people below."
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Heralds
-Evran
"RAGE + TEAR + EYE + RESO + HARM + DRUM + MISD + PRIDE + Your choice of Cyclic + AoE stun/knockdown as needed without losing buffs = OMG! I just crapped my pants!" -Evran
<<Any chance you're thinking of the mechanical "dragon" from the Gnome quest?
I remember a dragon too. I think it was one of the Heralds, specifically Sildua.
"He has one lair behind the falls of the Erlinilaya southeast of Shard, and another in the hills above Knife Clan. He can occasionally be seen flying directly over the Crossing, and once used a gwethdesuan to mock the tiny people below."
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Heralds
-Evran
"RAGE + TEAR + EYE + RESO + HARM + DRUM + MISD + PRIDE + Your choice of Cyclic + AoE stun/knockdown as needed without losing buffs = OMG! I just crapped my pants!" -Evran
Okay, in the interest of not derailing Armifer any more, I'm going to cut out all the arguing I do in this post. If you want to take this further, conflicts or equine cemetery.
>>If it makes you feel better Devan, think of it like they must have at least some independent intelligence to figure out what you want from it.
I wouldn't mind it if familiars were Elder Gods who amused themselves by acting as manservants for derelict scholars.
I wouldn't mind it if familiars were suprageniuses from Yoakena who memorize their masters' antics with photographic detail and magically recreate it at home for the entertainment of their wife and kids.
I wouldn't mind it if familiars were animals imbued by the talisman ritual with the ability to explain the nuance of the twelfth dimension and figure out how to move with respect to it.
I do mind that you feel that familiars must have a certain characteristic simply because you don't understand that no one took it away.
>>Additionally, I would suggest you read up on the concept and theory of self awareness beyond Wikipedia to better educate yourself on the subject.
Okay. Please actually provide links to sources that would educate me better. The information in Wikipedia synchs with what I've learned in my independent study of neuroscience and child development and human behavior. If I am incorrect, then point me at a credible authority that contradicts what I've stated.
>>If it makes you feel better Devan, think of it like they must have at least some independent intelligence to figure out what you want from it.
I wouldn't mind it if familiars were Elder Gods who amused themselves by acting as manservants for derelict scholars.
I wouldn't mind it if familiars were suprageniuses from Yoakena who memorize their masters' antics with photographic detail and magically recreate it at home for the entertainment of their wife and kids.
I wouldn't mind it if familiars were animals imbued by the talisman ritual with the ability to explain the nuance of the twelfth dimension and figure out how to move with respect to it.
I do mind that you feel that familiars must have a certain characteristic simply because you don't understand that no one took it away.
>>Additionally, I would suggest you read up on the concept and theory of self awareness beyond Wikipedia to better educate yourself on the subject.
Okay. Please actually provide links to sources that would educate me better. The information in Wikipedia synchs with what I've learned in my independent study of neuroscience and child development and human behavior. If I am incorrect, then point me at a credible authority that contradicts what I've stated.
>>If it makes you feel better Devan, think of it like they must have at least some independent intelligence to figure out what you want from it.
-me
>>I do mind that you feel that familiars must have a certain characteristic simply because you don't understand that no one took it away.
-you
>>l leo
>>You find the creature to be a magnificent specimen. There is a soft aura about it and you notice the eyes stare back with a nature which hints at intelligence. Your experience as a Warrior Mage tells you this is a familiar.
-the game
As for self awareness? Leave it up to the player to determine if it fits or not. I think it does, you don't. Fair enough.
Neuorscience deals with the physiology of the brain and nervous system and relates to psychology only peripherally. When I suggested you look for additional sources of information I merely am advising you read more than simply the first paragraph you come to on Wikipedia. i think you can find them yourself since you appear to be motivated enough to pursue independent study.
We've already spent more than enough time beating this to death. I don't think there's any reason for us to continue to beat this into the ground. Do you?
>> When I suggested you look for additional sources of information I merely am advising you read more than simply the first paragraph you come to on Wikipedia.
I referenced nothing from the first paragraph of the article I linked. I think my reference was actually the tenth paragraph. Which you'd know if you had read beyond the first paragraph.
>>i think you can find them yourself since you appear to be motivated enough to pursue independent study.
So, you have no sources and no basis for your disagreement with me. I'm sorry to hear that.
I referenced nothing from the first paragraph of the article I linked. I think my reference was actually the tenth paragraph. Which you'd know if you had read beyond the first paragraph.
>>i think you can find them yourself since you appear to be motivated enough to pursue independent study.
So, you have no sources and no basis for your disagreement with me. I'm sorry to hear that.
