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I've been messing around, making a few new characters lately.
Can someone sell me on WMs, instead of clerics, for combat mages? WMs seem to get a lot of TM or direct damage spells. But since you can only fire off 1 TM spell at a time, I'm not really seeing the strong benefit of having so much TM options, vs. a cleric having much fewer, but also have vastly more augmentation, utility, and debilitation options.
Basically I'm deliberately doing a GvG comparison of the two since they have the same skill sets. Am I underselling TM options in general? Am I overselling Cleric magic?
IMO,
Benefits of clerics:
* Strong support class. You can help other people.
* Stronger defensive abilities, especially since you can pull from the paladin spell books. (BENE + SOL + Centering + MPP + MAPP + PFE + BLESS + HALO + Courage + AA) You're a walking magical fortress.
* Death has far less of a "sting"
* Incredible debilitators. You've got soul sickness, malediction, CoZ, hydra hex, divine radiance. No single mob or player (at level) can stand before you. Literally.
* Communes. You get a blood staunch, raise power, swim/fatigue buffs, extra protection/damage against undead, and
* Fun quirky spells like Idon's Theft, Halo, or OM add both strong defensive abilities and utility.
(potential) Cons of clerics:
* Spirit is a resource. If you're not cognizant of this then you could kill yourself.
* Poor AOE damage. FoU/HH isn't "bad", but it's not exactly a cyclic that lets you double up on TM damage.
* Most of your spells only work against undead, or are fairly weak against the living.
* Theurgy is a pain at first. It gets a lot better, but it's never perfect if you aren't willing to hug an altar and play maid for the gods.
FYIs:
* Don't choose cleric if you hate quests. They're mandatory. I like them, but just don't if they're not your thing.
Benefits of WMs:
* Stronger offensive magics. You have a way to tie into every weakness.
* Stronger with weapons. Elemental damage from the summons / ignite is something most armor is abysmal at protecting against.
* Familiars are fun and sometimes useful at connecting yourself to others (AIM kind of replaces them though, but that's a different complaint).
* You can tap into bard abilities natively, which helps crafting and is one of (the only?) access to sorcery buffs in the game.
* Combined with bard abilities, you can buff pretty much anything you care about in the magic, weapons, or lore domain.
* Decent buffs for ranged weapons (resonance + tailwind)
Cons of WMs:
* You don't have a whole lot of group/personal support abilities. You're about blowing up the cat in interesting and variant ways. It's kind of one-dimensional.
* TM is going to be dragged down by your terts. It's the same for clerics, but less pronounced as they can level decently without a ton of it.
FYI:
* Honestly, the only reason I'd choose WMs at this stage of development is for thematic reasons or wanted to focus more on a "weapons" mage than casting mage.
Disclaimer: This is all from a PvE standpoint.
<<But since you can only fire off 1 TM spell at a time, I'm not really seeing the strong benefit of having so much TM options,
War Mages can stack a lot of their TM. Single standard cast + Fire Rain + Rimefang + Dragon's Breath + Blufmor Garaen + Ring of Spears + Magnetic Ballista. That's quite a bit of TM options that can be fired off practically all at once. On top of that, a large portion of that is AoE. The only downside here is not with WM TM spells themselves, but rather TM as a whole which affects Warrior Mages to a greater degree than other guilds. I.e. lackluster TM damage and one-note variety across standard TM spells.
<<vs. a cleric having much fewer, but also have vastly more augmentation, utility, and debilitation options.
As far as buffs go, Warrior Mages are definitely not buff shy and have about the same number of buffs as Clerics, albeit less flashy ones:
-Stats: Reflex, (Strength, Stamina)
-Offences: Every ranged weapon, Targeted Magic
-Defences: Evasion, Parry ability, All 4 armour skills, (Shield usage)
-Barriers: TM barrier, Elemental barrier
-Miscellaneous: Balance, Mana, Fatigue, Weapon damage amplification, (Stealth)
*Skills in brackets are not all simultaneously available based on which elemental form is used.
Clerics do have a lot more debilitation and non-buffing utility spells, but they also have to deal with devotion and rituals. Summoning is by far a much easier and less intrusive skill to train and use. (That said, I'm biased against playing Clerics because religion holds pretty much zero interest for me, and having to frequently go out of my way to do devotional rituals just to remain at full strength is a non-starter.)
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<<But since you can only fire off 1 TM spell at a time, I'm not really seeing the strong benefit of having so much TM options,
War Mages can stack a lot of their TM. Single standard cast + Fire Rain + Rimefang + Dragon's Breath + Blufmor Garaen + Ring of Spears + Magnetic Ballista. That's quite a bit of TM options that can be fired off practically all at once. On top of that, a large portion of that is AoE. The only downside here is not with WM TM spells themselves, but rather TM as a whole which affects Warrior Mages to a greater degree than other guilds. I.e. lackluster TM damage and one-note variety across standard TM spells.
<<vs. a cleric having much fewer, but also have vastly more augmentation, utility, and debilitation options.
As far as buffs go, Warrior Mages are definitely not buff shy and have about the same number of buffs as Clerics, albeit less flashy ones:
-Stats: Reflex, (Strength, Stamina)
-Offences: Every ranged weapon, Targeted Magic
-Defences: Evasion, Parry ability, All 4 armour skills, (Shield usage)
-Barriers: TM barrier, Elemental barrier
-Miscellaneous: Balance, Mana, Fatigue, Weapon damage amplification, (Stealth)
*Skills in brackets are not all simultaneously available based on which elemental form is used.
Clerics do have a lot more debilitation and non-buffing utility spells, but they also have to deal with devotion and rituals. Summoning is by far a much easier and less intrusive skill to train and use. (That said, I'm biased against playing Clerics because religion holds pretty much zero interest for me, and having to frequently go out of my way to do devotional rituals just to remain at full strength is a non-starter.)
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>IMO, and short playtime with both, there isn't. I'd pick playing a Bard over WM, unless you like their guild utilities (fam, elemental weapons, augmentation of TM outside of spells).
Ouch.
I do usually get caught up in the magic secondary instead of magic primary issue. I know terts struggle with spell slots, and usually don't have much to spend on feats. Same thing for secondaries?
Ouch.
I do usually get caught up in the magic secondary instead of magic primary issue. I know terts struggle with spell slots, and usually don't have much to spend on feats. Same thing for secondaries?
>>I do usually get caught up in the magic secondary instead of magic primary issue. I know terts struggle with spell slots, and usually don't have much to spend on feats. Same thing for secondaries?
All the bard spells will take 61 slots to get, you get 77 slots by 150. That leaves 16 slots for AP spells or Feats.
All the bard spells will take 61 slots to get, you get 77 slots by 150. That leaves 16 slots for AP spells or Feats.
> That's a very interesting comparison. Given your WM breakdown, what's the benefit to playing a WM instead of a Bard, since bards could access a lot of the WM TM spellbook (barring stuff like fire rain, etc.)?
It's really down to personal choice.
Reasons I'd pick a warrior mage:
* WM ability system has been fleshed out (familiars, pathways) with the potential of
* WM can do more AOE damage for time investment (CL, while lackluster, can be combined with Fire Rain - and a WM's magic will rise much faster than a Bard's)
* Potential for combat pets ("soon")
* More combat oriented (stronger defenses via shields.
* Access to fantastic spells from the bard spell book combined with spells bards can't access from yours (such as Aegis of Granite)
* Elemental weapons (I can't understate how weak everyone generally is to elemental magic)
* More total stat and defensive buffs.
Reasons I'd pick a Bard:
* Better crafting options. Bard lores will learn faster than a WM's lores + 1 more career.
* Socialization. Bards are good at all aspects of group play. From triage to damage to life saving to room clearing.
* Ability system fleshed out a few years ago looks very interesting, if it comes into fruition.
* RP value. Lots of RP verbs and functions.
* Jack of all trades, master of none.
* Replay value. Play the combat bard. Play the social bard. Play the explorer bard. Repeat. All without starting a new character.
It's really down to personal choice.
Reasons I'd pick a warrior mage:
* WM ability system has been fleshed out (familiars, pathways) with the potential of
* WM can do more AOE damage for time investment (CL, while lackluster, can be combined with Fire Rain - and a WM's magic will rise much faster than a Bard's)
* Potential for combat pets ("soon")
* More combat oriented (stronger defenses via shields.
* Access to fantastic spells from the bard spell book combined with spells bards can't access from yours (such as Aegis of Granite)
* Elemental weapons (I can't understate how weak everyone generally is to elemental magic)
* More total stat and defensive buffs.
Reasons I'd pick a Bard:
* Better crafting options. Bard lores will learn faster than a WM's lores + 1 more career.
* Socialization. Bards are good at all aspects of group play. From triage to damage to life saving to room clearing.
* Ability system fleshed out a few years ago looks very interesting, if it comes into fruition.
* RP value. Lots of RP verbs and functions.
* Jack of all trades, master of none.
* Replay value. Play the combat bard. Play the social bard. Play the explorer bard. Repeat. All without starting a new character.
> Also magic terts aren't that much worse, Rangers are 49/66 and Paladins are 44/66. It's usually magic primes that fare the worst, at least Clerics and WMs. Both will use up almost all your slots if you get every spell available.
Spell scrolls help this, but I definitely feel the pinch while leveling. There are so many niche spells that I want that I can't get because I also want the feats. It's a good problem to have, game play wise, but it's still a harder decision.
>>Spell scrolls help this, but I definitely feel the pinch while leveling. There are so many niche spells that I want that I can't get because I also want the feats. It's a good problem to have, game play wise, but it's still a harder decision.
I suppose I took the long view of it which certainly isn't the same as experiencing it while you're leveling. Saying you get 66 slots at 150 doesn't really help when that can take years.
I suppose I took the long view of it which certainly isn't the same as experiencing it while you're leveling. Saying you get 66 slots at 150 doesn't really help when that can take years.
>War Mages can stack a lot of their TM. Single standard cast + Fire Rain + Rimefang + Dragon's Breath + Blufmor Garaen + Ring of Spears + Magnetic Ballista.
WM's do have the potential for a lot of damage stacking, but it is important to nite here that Rimefang, Ring off Spears, and Fire Rain are mutually exclusive due to all 3 being cyclic. Additionally, Dragon's Breath is good only for a single sshot and then needs a prepare/cast to refresh. Magnetic Ballista requires you to load and maintain it and eats up a decent amount of RT doing so. Of the spells listed, only the three cyclics are AoE, and two of them require you to be at melee to damage things, and the third requires you to be outdoors.
Damage stacking is not the massive advantage people imply it is, largely becaause you can just kill something in a normal cast of an intro spell rather than going through all that extra work.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
WM's do have the potential for a lot of damage stacking, but it is important to nite here that Rimefang, Ring off Spears, and Fire Rain are mutually exclusive due to all 3 being cyclic. Additionally, Dragon's Breath is good only for a single sshot and then needs a prepare/cast to refresh. Magnetic Ballista requires you to load and maintain it and eats up a decent amount of RT doing so. Of the spells listed, only the three cyclics are AoE, and two of them require you to be at melee to damage things, and the third requires you to be outdoors.
Damage stacking is not the massive advantage people imply it is, largely becaause you can just kill something in a normal cast of an intro spell rather than going through all that extra work.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
>-Stats: Reflex, (Strength, Stamina)
-Offences: Every ranged weapon, Targeted Magic
-Defences: Evasion, Parry ability, All 4 armour skills, (Shield usage)
-Barriers: TM barrier, Elemental barrier
-Miscellaneous: Balance, Mana, Fatigue, Weapon damage amplification, (Stealth)
Some stuff that was missed:
- Agility (Mantle of Flame)
- Any melee weapon you are currently holding (Mabtle of Flame)
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
-Offences: Every ranged weapon, Targeted Magic
-Defences: Evasion, Parry ability, All 4 armour skills, (Shield usage)
-Barriers: TM barrier, Elemental barrier
-Miscellaneous: Balance, Mana, Fatigue, Weapon damage amplification, (Stealth)
Some stuff that was missed:
- Agility (Mantle of Flame)
- Any melee weapon you are currently holding (Mabtle of Flame)
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
Don't count Warmages out too quickly, OP. Clerics rock in a lot of ways but dominating physical combat with magic is what WMs do best.
Warmages have a nice selection of AOE disablers to control the fight: Tremor for balance advantage, Thunderclap to break momentum with stuns, Frostbite to keep things winded and debuff stamina so they're easier to kill. The single-target debuffs and disables are pretty sweet, too. Tingle a target with equipment and it can't block or parry, and loses both agility and reflex. Vertigo it and it loses offensive and defensive power at the same time. If the mage is using an elemental weapon, Mark of Arhat allows almost every damaging thing that can be thrown at a target to do extra damage. With a good sense of timing, a good mana room, and enough attunement, a Warmage can dominate encounters a cleric would find difficult. And all of that works against most creatures, while a lot of Cleric hax is restricted to just undead or is only full strength against undead.
For physical combat the WM buff package is as good as Cleric or better. They can run the following buffs all the time:
Sure Footing - Balance and Parry
Swirling Winds - Reflex and Evasion
Substratum - Target
Tailwind - All ranged weapons
Ignite - Bonus fire damage on any melee or thrown weapon
If they want to fight from an aggressive offensive posture they can boost Agility, all melee weapons, and brawling damage, with Mantle of Flames.
If they want to turtle up and be conservative they can get Strength, Stamina and Shield from Aegis of Granite.
The only thing lacking is a physical damage barrier but Manifest Force works fine in that role.
For Target damage, no contest, Warmages have more burst potential than Clerics (at least, once Clerics get the Blumfor Garaen treatment. =P) and though some things are redundant, many are complementary. A WM can pre-load 7 light attacks and 1 heavy one with Blumfor Garaen and Dragon's Breath. Even after nerf BG is super efficient at killing mobs - 2 casts and about 20 seconds will kill most at-level creatures (for me) without any prior softening up. Both can be recast in 8 seconds or less. With good tactics and timing and that counts for a lot.
And as much as AOE TM could use some work, Shockwave is pretty good for both doing damage and creating breathing space.
So IDK OP, it depends on what you want. Cleric magic is pretty cool in its intricacies and niche applications. If you want to wade in and scrap it up I think Warmage is the way to go.
Mazrian
Warmages have a nice selection of AOE disablers to control the fight: Tremor for balance advantage, Thunderclap to break momentum with stuns, Frostbite to keep things winded and debuff stamina so they're easier to kill. The single-target debuffs and disables are pretty sweet, too. Tingle a target with equipment and it can't block or parry, and loses both agility and reflex. Vertigo it and it loses offensive and defensive power at the same time. If the mage is using an elemental weapon, Mark of Arhat allows almost every damaging thing that can be thrown at a target to do extra damage. With a good sense of timing, a good mana room, and enough attunement, a Warmage can dominate encounters a cleric would find difficult. And all of that works against most creatures, while a lot of Cleric hax is restricted to just undead or is only full strength against undead.
For physical combat the WM buff package is as good as Cleric or better. They can run the following buffs all the time:
Sure Footing - Balance and Parry
Swirling Winds - Reflex and Evasion
Substratum - Target
Tailwind - All ranged weapons
Ignite - Bonus fire damage on any melee or thrown weapon
If they want to fight from an aggressive offensive posture they can boost Agility, all melee weapons, and brawling damage, with Mantle of Flames.
If they want to turtle up and be conservative they can get Strength, Stamina and Shield from Aegis of Granite.
The only thing lacking is a physical damage barrier but Manifest Force works fine in that role.
For Target damage, no contest, Warmages have more burst potential than Clerics (at least, once Clerics get the Blumfor Garaen treatment. =P) and though some things are redundant, many are complementary. A WM can pre-load 7 light attacks and 1 heavy one with Blumfor Garaen and Dragon's Breath. Even after nerf BG is super efficient at killing mobs - 2 casts and about 20 seconds will kill most at-level creatures (for me) without any prior softening up. Both can be recast in 8 seconds or less. With good tactics and timing and that counts for a lot.
And as much as AOE TM could use some work, Shockwave is pretty good for both doing damage and creating breathing space.
So IDK OP, it depends on what you want. Cleric magic is pretty cool in its intricacies and niche applications. If you want to wade in and scrap it up I think Warmage is the way to go.
Mazrian
>>As far as buffs go, Warrior Mages are definitely not buff shy and have about the same number of buffs as Clerics
They are both good, but I actually compared them carefully recently and I think Clerics definitely come out on top with buffs. They can get up to six stat buffs at once (if they use Courage), plus shield, defending, evasion, balance, several barriers, and all melee weapons (if they use RW), which are all in-sphere for them. Not to mention perception, attunement, and debil. Plus their OM hax, which (I think?) would allow them to have up more buffs at once than a similarly skilled WM.
WMs nearly match that, but have far fewer stat buffs (only one in sphere), no extra magic buffs beyond TM, and while they can boost all ranged, only Bow is in sphere. Their real edge here is that they can buff shield, evasion, and parry, and all three are in sphere.
Comparing the two for PVE, I'd say Clerics are the tanks who do good damage, and are amazing vs. undead. They're pretty strong all around, with the main drawback of Theurgy being high maintenance. WMs are the better-than-glass cannons who can wipe out rooms of invasion creatures, with a lot of fun RP and utility extras (awesome cantrips, familiars, elemental weapons). Both are highly viable.
They are both good, but I actually compared them carefully recently and I think Clerics definitely come out on top with buffs. They can get up to six stat buffs at once (if they use Courage), plus shield, defending, evasion, balance, several barriers, and all melee weapons (if they use RW), which are all in-sphere for them. Not to mention perception, attunement, and debil. Plus their OM hax, which (I think?) would allow them to have up more buffs at once than a similarly skilled WM.
WMs nearly match that, but have far fewer stat buffs (only one in sphere), no extra magic buffs beyond TM, and while they can boost all ranged, only Bow is in sphere. Their real edge here is that they can buff shield, evasion, and parry, and all three are in sphere.
Comparing the two for PVE, I'd say Clerics are the tanks who do good damage, and are amazing vs. undead. They're pretty strong all around, with the main drawback of Theurgy being high maintenance. WMs are the better-than-glass cannons who can wipe out rooms of invasion creatures, with a lot of fun RP and utility extras (awesome cantrips, familiars, elemental weapons). Both are highly viable.
Pft Clerics are way better than WMs (Theurgy aside). I've got a 100 WM and a 163 Cleric. One of the best Cleric moves out there, and IMO one of the best moves of all, is Soul Sickness to force an opponent to it's knees followed up by Fire of Ushnish. In addition being able to keep MPP, MAPP, Soul Shield, Benediction, Shield of Light, MF, Halo and more in our Orb for as long as we can keep it charged with Mana. We can also keep you from casting any spells HuLP or anyone casting spells with Spite of Dergati. We can steal your spell while you're prepping it with Idon's Theft or strip away all your buffs with Meraud's Cry. Finally we can debuff your weapons, armor, accuracy and evasion (and everyone else in the room) with Hydra Hex. Oh, and as I think was mentioned earlier we have access to all Paladin buffs that are available on scrolls (one or two max obviously).
>One of the best Cleric moves out there, and IMO one of the best moves of all, is Soul Sickness to force an opponent to it's knees followed up by Fire of Ushnish
WMs have debils and AoE TMs too.
>We can also keep you from casting any spells HuLP or anyone casting spells with Spite of Dergati.
And WMs have GaF, Ward Break, AC, ES, and VeI.
> Finally we can debuff your weapons, armor, accuracy and evasion (and everyone else in the room) with Hydra Hex.
But only one at a time. Warmies can make you drop weapons, get RT, immobilized, knocked over/back, or lose balance.
>Oh, and as I think was mentioned earlier we have access to all Paladin buffs that are available on scrolls (one or two max obviously).
Bard spells.
I think it's pretty close WM to Cleric. Clerics have some more utility, WMs have some more debil range and perhaps a better host of damage output skills (FR/RoS/Rimefang + MaB + BG + TM + gorgeous gorgeous elemental weapon buffing). Clerics definitely have better defensive buffing.
I also tested a bit with MC and found it extraordinarily lacking. My 75th Cleric casting at his cap couldn't strip a single spell from a 40th circle Necromancer. Have other people had more success with it?
>Oh, and as I think was mentioned earlier we have access to all Paladin buffs that are available on scrolls (one or two max obviously).
Use Idon's Theft to steal paladin spells and OM them up. Unless something's changed recently, you can do that to sort of bypass the scroll system and fill buff holes with paladin buffs. Just need a paladin buddy or pocket paladin. Sadly you can't buff every stat anymore since Marshal Order became signature, but you can still have all the others if you want 'em. AS and RW are great, too.
It's been like that forever and it's no secret so I'm assuming it's intended.
Use Idon's Theft to steal paladin spells and OM them up. Unless something's changed recently, you can do that to sort of bypass the scroll system and fill buff holes with paladin buffs. Just need a paladin buddy or pocket paladin. Sadly you can't buff every stat anymore since Marshal Order became signature, but you can still have all the others if you want 'em. AS and RW are great, too.
It's been like that forever and it's no secret so I'm assuming it's intended.
> They can get up to six stat buffs at once (if they use Courage
For reference, they can buff 7 if they use both spell slots.
* Intel (paladin): Clarity
* Stamina (paladin): Courage
* Charisma: Auspice
* Wisdom: Gift
* Strength: Bene
* Reflex: Bene
* Agility: Bene
Let's just sum up what else a cleric can do for a second.
Perception (cyclic) with spot effect, defending (MAPP), Shield (SOL - including secondary "perk"), first aid is rendered moot with hodierna's commune, and athletics via elune's 2nd commune.
That and what they can debuff: everything that's hindered by kneeling (sick), everything hindered by low spirit (chs), offensive accuracy and defensive (general) (100/0,50/50,0/100), increased damage taken in the form of reduced armor/weapons quality (coz) and +damage modifier from DR + damage from bless (undead).
That and their sheer number of stackable barriers: MPP + MAF + AA (scroll) + PFE (undead) + GHS (notice the lack of restrictions towards self-cast spells - poor Aether Cloak / Glythtide) the crazy coolness that is Idon's and Sanyu. In terms of PvP, don't forget about integrity infusions.
Warrior mages have elemental weapons and elemental magic. Honestly, so many armors are weak towards elements, and it's fun to be the god(dess) of magic. It's just in terms of sheer defensive and offensive power with some critical utility... clerics. Hands down.
Now. All of that said, it doesn't affect a new character in the slightest. You'll never be competitive in high level PvP. You're too far back in terms of gear, circles, stats, and levels. You're literally years away from even being a blip on the radar. For the most part, Low level PvP is too volatile and potentially unbalanced. Bards, for example, aren't great until they start putting up defensive buffs. Clerics start out strong, but they'll likely lose to a stealth based guild without any armor on.
Both guilds are perfectly fine in PvE. WMs probably come out on top in farming/damage output due to the sheer volume of their spells. Weak against impact? You have a spell for that. Puncture? Same. Elements? Same again. No question clerics can survive better, but where they shine doesn't have the most fleshed out ladder.
>For reference, they can buff 7 if they use both spell slots.
Don't need scroll slots. Paladin spells are compatible with OM. That's what I meant by bypassing the scroll system with a pocket paladin or paladin buddy via IT. It's not even hard or tricky with F2P. It's almost like two guilds in one.
Don't need scroll slots. Paladin spells are compatible with OM. That's what I meant by bypassing the scroll system with a pocket paladin or paladin buddy via IT. It's not even hard or tricky with F2P. It's almost like two guilds in one.
Just possibly the Sorcery paradigm was not as well thought out as it could have been. Possibly.
Hax aside though I think this thread is overvaluing the cleric package a little. Cleric magic manipulation is useful in certain situations but not in most. A lot of the stacking debuff/debils are things Warmages can also do. And the entire cleric package is IIRC 92 slots so any given cleric is not going to be able to do all of that.
Mazrian
Hax aside though I think this thread is overvaluing the cleric package a little. Cleric magic manipulation is useful in certain situations but not in most. A lot of the stacking debuff/debils are things Warmages can also do. And the entire cleric package is IIRC 92 slots so any given cleric is not going to be able to do all of that.
Mazrian
Warmages definitely have a big package, too, but, you know... It's not about the size of the package but how you use it. Then again, maybe that's what all the guilds with small packages say. :(
Clerics are very much inferior to warmages offensively (excl. AE and undead). Both are strong defensively for survival and armor tert guilds, although cleric edges out on more avoidance options. Warrior mages are very much inferior in utility. Both are situationally great at debilitation, although WM could benefit from a few more stat buffs. Both are situationally great at warding, although cleric is better in more situations... meh, not a huge deal.
When deciding among magic primary characters, I find it a good to analyze guilds' entire spellbook on epedia and make a rough spell plan for each guild option. Then analyze the spell plan for each along with skill set placement to determine which ones sounds more exciting to you. Then have a quick look at guild abilities to make sure it still sounds exciting. Then pull the trigger and don't look back.
Clerics are very much inferior to warmages offensively (excl. AE and undead). Both are strong defensively for survival and armor tert guilds, although cleric edges out on more avoidance options. Warrior mages are very much inferior in utility. Both are situationally great at debilitation, although WM could benefit from a few more stat buffs. Both are situationally great at warding, although cleric is better in more situations... meh, not a huge deal.
When deciding among magic primary characters, I find it a good to analyze guilds' entire spellbook on epedia and make a rough spell plan for each guild option. Then analyze the spell plan for each along with skill set placement to determine which ones sounds more exciting to you. Then have a quick look at guild abilities to make sure it still sounds exciting. Then pull the trigger and don't look back.
> Don't need scroll slots. Paladin spells are compatible with OM. That's what I meant by bypassing the scroll system with a pocket paladin or paladin buddy via IT. It's not even hard or tricky with F2P. It's almost like two guilds in one.
Honestly, I love my cleric, but that's kind of crazy.
Looking just at paladin spells, could you put the following into a single orb:
+Stam (Courage)
+int (Clarity) (does that come with - stealing?)
+wis (divine guidance) - save yourself a spell slot
+Weapon skill (Righteous Wrath)
-Magic damage (Soldier's prayer)
-all damage (AA)
+Stun recovery/immunity (Anti-Stun).
If so, that's all practically for free, and then you're buffing like the other guilds would.
> When deciding among magic primary characters, I find it a good to analyze guilds' entire spellbook on epedia and make a rough spell plan for each guild option.
This, and you can't forget the themes. Guild balance can and will change in the blink of an eye. If you like the theme then you can ride the roller coaster. If you're doing it for raw power, you're going to lose out on a lot when you reroll.
>>I'm not saying warrior mages don't have a big toolkit, but what can a warrior mage buff/debuff that a cleric can't do as well, or better?
Just to highlight some differences, Warmages can:
Single-target stun things (Arc Light), or even single-target stun things and leave them prone (Ice Patch). Halo sort of works for this but won't work at missile range.
AOE stun living creatures without throwing them out of melee range (Thunderclap), or AOE stun things at missile range or which are unengaged (Thunderclap), maintain a constant pulsing balance advantage (Tremor), debuff fatigue and stamina (Frostbite) while sending targets prone.
Apply full-strength offense and defense debuffs, with a pulsing balance debuff, in one spell (Vertigo).
Apply an agility and reflex debuff and make things that use equipment drop that equipment (Tingle).
Amplify damage from virtually every attack they do, against living and corporeal undead targets, including melee and thrown with Elemental Weapons (Mark of Arhat). COZ sort of does this by cursing equipment. Hard to say which route is better.
Not hating on Clerics - their stuff is very cool as well and they can do some things Warmages can't. Just IMO Warmages are better equipped to control a fight.
Mazrian
Just to highlight some differences, Warmages can:
Single-target stun things (Arc Light), or even single-target stun things and leave them prone (Ice Patch). Halo sort of works for this but won't work at missile range.
AOE stun living creatures without throwing them out of melee range (Thunderclap), or AOE stun things at missile range or which are unengaged (Thunderclap), maintain a constant pulsing balance advantage (Tremor), debuff fatigue and stamina (Frostbite) while sending targets prone.
Apply full-strength offense and defense debuffs, with a pulsing balance debuff, in one spell (Vertigo).
Apply an agility and reflex debuff and make things that use equipment drop that equipment (Tingle).
Amplify damage from virtually every attack they do, against living and corporeal undead targets, including melee and thrown with Elemental Weapons (Mark of Arhat). COZ sort of does this by cursing equipment. Hard to say which route is better.
Not hating on Clerics - their stuff is very cool as well and they can do some things Warmages can't. Just IMO Warmages are better equipped to control a fight.
Mazrian
> Single-target stun things (Arc Light)
Stun foe scroll. PS for AOE stuns while hunting.
> even single-target stun things and leave them prone (Ice Patch)
Soul sickness. Easy spell to snap cast, charm, and makes them stay kneeling for an extended amount of time.
Divine radiance will give a knock down + increased damage taken.
> debuff fatigue and stamina (Frostbite) while sending targets prone
It's true that they don't debuff fatigue and stam, but they do have a cyclic debuff on general offense and defense or armor and weapons. That said, this is a pro for WMs if fatigue/stam hits are more important to you than off&def/arm&weapon.
> AOE stun
Halo. It can give an AOE knockback/stun, be infused to pulse early, and can be stored in an orb as an emergency trigger. Does PS work on CoZ/Male cursed people? I didn't think so, but thought to ask.
> Apply full-strength offense and defense debuffs, with a pulsing balance debuff, in one spell (Vertigo)
When did vertigo change to apply general off/def buffs in the same way malediction does? Either way DR is better for the balance debuff due to +damage taken.
> Amplify damage from virtually every attack they do, against living and corporeal undead targets
This, IMO, is the huge functional benefit in warrior mage's favor. Metal armors, such as the chain worn by a great majority of players, are absolutely abysmal at protecting against electrical damage. Then again, lay ward + soldier's prayer (paladin scroll) + AA + MPP would greatly reduce that damage.
> Apply an agility and reflex debuff and make things that use equipment drop that equipment (Tingle).
That's a great defensive debuff, but it only helps for defensive maneuvers and will be offset by BENE. Most shields are arm-worn now, and clerics can affect those with CoZ or double up with MALE + COZ + DR + SICK.
> Not hating on Clerics - their stuff is very cool as well and they can do some things Warmages can't. Just IMO Warmages are better equipped to control a fight.
Controlling a fight? I think all things being equal, the cleric would win out. Sheer damage output? tough call, but I'd guess WMs would still win out if they were smart enough to inspect the armor and choose the spells accordingly.
I think it's also worth mentioning the warrior mage DFA. I don't believe clerics have that option (FOU is technically DFB, but it's still FOU). That's functionally a strong, one-shot anti-shield spell and again it uses electrical damage. That's assuming you can strip the barriers.
Please don't take my posts as fuel for GvG. I only meant to offer advice (unsolicited, my favorite kind). Spells and abilities should really be analyzed for balance on their own, just like guilds. I think comparing warrior mages to clerics is apples and oranges. The skill sets align but the theme and playstyle are so different for the most part. Unless we're comparing two things that are nearly identical in functionality or analyzing a heavily one-sided fight, it's usually counterproductive.
Just one more thing... Using spells and abilities that sound like gray area stuff, hacks, exploits or whatever to justify rolling a character for the long term is a bad idea. When AE gets brought in line, I fully expect clerics will be complaining about their damage like warrior mages and everyone else at least until barriers are rewritten. Moreover, having access to "free" paladin spells doesn't magically make a cleric good at PvP. While a hardcore PvP cleric is nearly impossible to beat, a cleric who doesn't understand all his spells is among the easiest to beat. Warrior mages take finesse to excel at, too, but not as much as clerics.
Just one more thing... Using spells and abilities that sound like gray area stuff, hacks, exploits or whatever to justify rolling a character for the long term is a bad idea. When AE gets brought in line, I fully expect clerics will be complaining about their damage like warrior mages and everyone else at least until barriers are rewritten. Moreover, having access to "free" paladin spells doesn't magically make a cleric good at PvP. While a hardcore PvP cleric is nearly impossible to beat, a cleric who doesn't understand all his spells is among the easiest to beat. Warrior mages take finesse to excel at, too, but not as much as clerics.
>>Does PS work on CoZ/Male cursed people? I didn't think so, but thought to ask.
So, does it? That would be a neat interaction.
This is from the DISCERN text for Vertigo:
The Vertigo spell is an entertaining use of elemental magic. The caster causes the air pressure around a victim's head to change and fluctuate, making the target feel weak in the stomach and unsettled. Any foe affected will _have a harder time focusing on combat_, and will often suffer from unsteadiness. Vertigo has no effect on undead or creatures that do not breathe air.
IIRC there was a bug for awhile that made the penalties persist and stack, which was pretty sweet.
>>Other stuff.
I listed a bunch of things that Warmages can do uniquely or more flexibly than clerics. Clerics can also do things. They're both good guilds that ultimately feel very different and suit different play styles despite having the same skill set setup.
I agree with what Warbie has posted, basically, especially this:
>>Just one more thing... Using spells and abilities that sound like gray area stuff, hacks, exploits or whatever to justify rolling a character for the long term is a bad idea. When AE gets brought in line, I fully expect clerics will be complaining about their damage like warrior mages and everyone else at least until barriers are rewritten. Moreover, having access to "free" paladin spells doesn't magically make a cleric good at PvP. While a hardcore PvP cleric is nearly impossible to beat, a cleric who doesn't understand all his spells is among the easiest to beat. Warrior mages take finesse to excel at, too, but not as much as clerics. <<
Mazrian
So, does it? That would be a neat interaction.
This is from the DISCERN text for Vertigo:
The Vertigo spell is an entertaining use of elemental magic. The caster causes the air pressure around a victim's head to change and fluctuate, making the target feel weak in the stomach and unsettled. Any foe affected will _have a harder time focusing on combat_, and will often suffer from unsteadiness. Vertigo has no effect on undead or creatures that do not breathe air.
IIRC there was a bug for awhile that made the penalties persist and stack, which was pretty sweet.
>>Other stuff.
I listed a bunch of things that Warmages can do uniquely or more flexibly than clerics. Clerics can also do things. They're both good guilds that ultimately feel very different and suit different play styles despite having the same skill set setup.
I agree with what Warbie has posted, basically, especially this:
>>Just one more thing... Using spells and abilities that sound like gray area stuff, hacks, exploits or whatever to justify rolling a character for the long term is a bad idea. When AE gets brought in line, I fully expect clerics will be complaining about their damage like warrior mages and everyone else at least until barriers are rewritten. Moreover, having access to "free" paladin spells doesn't magically make a cleric good at PvP. While a hardcore PvP cleric is nearly impossible to beat, a cleric who doesn't understand all his spells is among the easiest to beat. Warrior mages take finesse to excel at, too, but not as much as clerics. <<
Mazrian
> Please don't take my posts as fuel for GvG.
I think it's fair to compare the abilities and features of guilds when trying to decide between them.
> I'm not a 100% on cleric spell slot costs but can they do the things that we've already listed for the same or lower amount than what Mazrian has posted?
Let's compare.
Warrior Mage (16 slots):
* Arc Light (2)
* Ice Patch (2)
* Ignite (2)
* Frostbyte (4)
* Tingle (3)
+2 for only one TM spell + ES to get to elementalism (shortest possible path)
+1 for another scroll (Veritgo + thunderclap)
However, you're going to need to spend another 3-10 scroll slots to max out your potential for elemental damage and weapons, but we're just talking about the shortest path to the spells mentioned here.
On the cleric side (15-16 slots):
* Divine radiance (3+1[bless])
* Soul sickness (2+1[centering])
* MALE ([scroll]+1[uncurse])
* HH (2)
* COZ (2)
* OM (3)
Scroll: Idon's theft + MALE. Now steal halo and put it in your orb for free.
I don't remember if you could get infusion without rejuve, so maybe +1.
And that's the thing. They're about equal before you include OM and Idon's theft, as that turns out to be a combo of crazy potential. You could use it to grab as many spells as you don't know.
Again WMs can blow up non-undead better, but clerics have the edge on undead, debilitation, utility, and buffs.
Closing your eyes, you grunt briefly in effort as you sense a small electrical ethereal fissure open in front of you. Thrusting your hand through, you draw out an electric scimitar. As you open your eyes, the fissure closes.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Warmages win.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
Roundtime: 1 sec.
Warmages win.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
> Any foe affected will _have a harder time focusing on combat_
Interesting. On elanthipedia it lists it as solely a balance reduction. That would be really nice if it debuffed off/def as well.
> barriers are rewritten
This is a great point. The stackability of cleric defenses may be seriously hurt very soon.
> OM + Idon's.
Honestly, this sounds like a bug. I don't see why you can orb spells you don't know. It's good for clerics if it's not, but it kind of destroys the spell slot allocation for OM.
> While a hardcore PvP cleric is nearly impossible to beat
I want to make this point again. This only really factors in at high level PVP. Low-level PvP is mostly determined by guild, gear, stats, spell choices, and training. Neither WMs or Clerics are the best choice if your goal is to PvP around level 30-40. I'd suggest rangers / necros (hiding + sniping). A low-level cleric would never find them, let alone hit them.
>Interesting. On elanthipedia it lists it as solely a balance reduction. That would be really nice if it debuffed off/def as well.
Balance on its own affects offense and defense. Vertigo, on top of the balance debuff, gives some sort of accuracy penalty or some other kind of offense debuff that's really annoying. Vertigo is easily one of the most powerful defensive spells in the game because of the double-whammy. Bear in mind tremor and vertigo can be cast at someone to pulse and follow him around. Few spells of its ilk are so annoyingly persistent.
Tremor is kinda redundant IMO, but baking into Vertigo a full-feature AoE cast would probably be overpowered. Might be cool if there were an area cast option for vertigo for the balance portion only; then you can easily eliminate tremor from the spellbook in favor of something more unique, like stone frisbees, which would be too fun for a mere cantrip of course.
>I want to make this point again. This only really factors in at high level PVP. Low-level PvP is mostly determined by guild, gear, stats, spell choices, and training. Neither WMs or Clerics are the best choice if your goal is to PvP around level 30-40. I'd suggest rangers / necros (hiding + sniping). A low-level cleric would never find them, let alone hit them.
I disagree. If anything, PvP is more balanced at lower levels when you don't have skill set disparities in the hundreds of ranks, stats matter more and people aren't capping every spell they have.
Balance on its own affects offense and defense. Vertigo, on top of the balance debuff, gives some sort of accuracy penalty or some other kind of offense debuff that's really annoying. Vertigo is easily one of the most powerful defensive spells in the game because of the double-whammy. Bear in mind tremor and vertigo can be cast at someone to pulse and follow him around. Few spells of its ilk are so annoyingly persistent.
Tremor is kinda redundant IMO, but baking into Vertigo a full-feature AoE cast would probably be overpowered. Might be cool if there were an area cast option for vertigo for the balance portion only; then you can easily eliminate tremor from the spellbook in favor of something more unique, like stone frisbees, which would be too fun for a mere cantrip of course.
>I want to make this point again. This only really factors in at high level PVP. Low-level PvP is mostly determined by guild, gear, stats, spell choices, and training. Neither WMs or Clerics are the best choice if your goal is to PvP around level 30-40. I'd suggest rangers / necros (hiding + sniping). A low-level cleric would never find them, let alone hit them.
I disagree. If anything, PvP is more balanced at lower levels when you don't have skill set disparities in the hundreds of ranks, stats matter more and people aren't capping every spell they have.
>Tremor is kinda redundant IMO, but baking into Vertigo a full-feature AoE cast would probably be overpowered.
That's how vertigo used to work, but I think we lost it to the slot costing debacles.
Sometimes redundancy is nice. Most guilds drop a debuff and throw an attack spell, warrior mages layer three of each. It's wastefully excessive overkill in most situations, but I like being able to just play with my food, as it were. Do you ever need four TM barriers running at once?
Other guilds control crowds by moving critters around in the room, affecting spawn rates... Warrior Mages make a new room. You can even leave your familiar outside to keep tabs on your initial spot.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
That's how vertigo used to work, but I think we lost it to the slot costing debacles.
Sometimes redundancy is nice. Most guilds drop a debuff and throw an attack spell, warrior mages layer three of each. It's wastefully excessive overkill in most situations, but I like being able to just play with my food, as it were. Do you ever need four TM barriers running at once?
Other guilds control crowds by moving critters around in the room, affecting spawn rates... Warrior Mages make a new room. You can even leave your familiar outside to keep tabs on your initial spot.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
