I've been thinking about our Armor tertiaries selves lately, and it really really bugs me that we can only arm-wear small shields. The argument has been used before that our title as a "combat front-line" group is characterized by our offensive prowess. Still, I really think WMs need to be thrown a bone w/ shields, especially arm-worn ones. Rangers have a primary defense, and the other two are secondary, which means that even a Ranger, who is supposed to be fast on his/her feet, can arm-wear a medium shield. Warrior Mages have 1 secondary defense, and 2 tertiary. This is the same as Moon Mages. Doesn't this seem wrong to anybody else? I won't cry and complain about how wrong it seems that on all our armor, as well as evasion, we learn at the slowest rate possible. However, I want to say now that we really should have some sort of ability to arm-wear at a secondary Armor level. I know AeG is being developed, but a third-tier spell (one req which seems, to me, largely unuseful, and seemingly unfounded)really disappoints me. Couldn't WMs have some sort of quest they could go on to gain the ability to arm-wear a medium shield? I wouldn't even care if the guild-specific hinderance wasn't addressed. How about if shield was trained in proximity of parry, our secondary defense? Thus, a 20th circle WM with 50 ranks of shield would arm-wear a small shield, but if that 20th circle had 60 ranks (3 per circle) then he/she could somehow be allowed to arm-wear a medium shield.

I wish we could get some -ability- to arm-wearm medium shields. If we don't then I will continue to eagerly await AeG. I beg though, that it be made good - really really good. SW is very good, good enough in fact, and is a second-tier spell. As a third-tier spell, I seriously hope AeG rocks our finger-wagglin' worlds.


Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.

Axillus - Your posts are generally well-thought-out and constructive, but I know I, in my grammar-nazi way, appreciate it when paragraphs are broken up a little bit more than your first one.

The idea of skill-based shield wearing has been beaten to death in the combat folders a thousand times over. One of the main points that I've seen is that except in very few cases, arm-worn shields are nothing more than a convenience. I know that I have absolutely no trouble using my tower shield in my left hand, and while it's quite nice to be able to skin and loot at any time, thirty seconds to wear your shield, skin, loot, and remove your shield again should not ruin your hunting experience. It's even easier to do with a macro.

The only real part I can imagine Wythor playing in giving us a shield bonus is through something specifically war-magey, like AoG. Giving us a special perk in terms of mundane shield usage would have to be proposed by him, sure, but Oolan and Ssra are the ones that would have to be convinced.

The only thing that I can imagine allowing us to somehow gain medium shield arm-wearability is for us to give up something else. The only things we have that would be a sufficient tradeoff are spell slots or familiars, because the APs are not designed to be a major boon. A spell will be coming out "soon" that will give us a major benefit for shields, and I think that nobody will want to give up familiars once the rewrite is done.

-Durnil

>I'd still use my tower shield even if I could arm-wear a medium shield. Why do you want to put a shield on your arm so badly? Is it that hard to "stow left" "skin;bund" "get shield"? The only reason I'd want an arm worn shield would be if my shield skill was higher than parry + SW boost and I used shield+evasion as my standard setup. But if shield > parry + SW, you've got WAY bigger training problems to deal with...

Why so badly? Simple - 2HE


Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.

I've also got to admit, another reason I want this is "just because". It irks me that as a "front line" combat guild, our defense sets give us as good a learning opportunity as Moon Mages. Just being honest. Also that Rangers can arm-wear a medium shield and we can't. I know it's bad, and petty, to want something just b/c someone else has it, but this just makes so much sense.

Mazrian, I think the main benefit (I bet you know this already, but posting in case anyone's confused) is that we'll be able to buff up existing shields. Also we won't have to worry about nice shields getting beat up quite so much. I know that I'll in essense be able to arm-wear a medium (maybe even large) shield w/ AeG as it's proposed, but the mundane thing still bugs me.

When it all comes down to it, it gets back to skill sets. We've got the smallest primary skillset in the game (shared, of course) and one of our secondaries (Lore) isn't much better for usefulness. Our options there are the big 4 and then tediously training all of the musics. Blech. Weapons is a very nice secondary skillset, but no combat-oriented guild has this as a tertiary (duh, huh?). Our tertiary skills are both extremely important in every sense. As opposed to Thieves and Traders, who have an all-but null skillset, and Barbarians, who have a huge primary skill set and completely null tertiary set.

All of these things in conjunction to the afore-mentioned really just... irk me about small arm-worn shields.


Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.

>I just want to see my 0th level have his oval shield fall off when he joins the Moon Mage guild. That's my biggest issue with skill-set based abilities. If I can do it before I join a guild, why can't I do it afterward? If the GMs insist on skill-set based abilities, there should be two tiers: Primary skill set, and everybody else. I also think everything should be skill-based, not skill-set based. Of course, this has been beaten to death many times.

I haven't tested it myself, but I believe that commoners are restricted to wearing small shields only. But I agree with you 100% otherwise. More feats, less guild hoarding.

> More feats, less guild hoarding.

The entire reason arm-worn shields are the way they are now is to avoid guild hording. They are based on skillset placement -- can't get any more basic than that, nor is that likely to change anytime soon.


- GM Dartenian

"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson

LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/

<<They are based on skillset placement -- can't get any more basic than that>>

Unfortunately, skillset placement is an imperfect way to determine a person's ability at any given thing. Nobody will live very long in combat without being able to defend themselves. I understand comparison between guild is rather pointless, so let me put it this way. The only thing that should affect whether or not a given guild gets any given ability is guild focus. The Warrior Mage focuses on combat, more specifically magical combat. Defence is a large part of combat, and yet we have an innate lack of defences.

It just boggles my mind that a person will suddenly forget how to do something by joining a guild. That being said... "nor is that likely to change anytime soon" pretty much ends any point I'd like to make on the matter.


Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
I love shield blocking while stunned and prone with a leg missing. ~Ranger Hanryu

<<numerous other WM defensive spells>>

Two is hardly numerous. Swirling Winds, Y'ntrel Sechra, and...? The bonus provided by ethereal shield is so miniscule we had to be told it was there because nobody noticed. These are the only spells that will defend against mundane attacks. We have other spells that defend against magical attacks, but in so doing prevent us from using magic ourselves.

<<In most games I've played, mages physical defenses are lacking >>

This is not D&D, nor is it any other game. I only have physical defences. True, I have spells that bonus them, but I still only have the physical defences.

<<What are you forgetting by joining a guild exactly? (as I understand it commoners can only wear small shields as well>>

I stated a few posts ago that commoners can indeed where medium shields. My level 0 Moon Mage to be is currently doing so. I haven't checked the foraging stuff with my level 0 Warrior Mage to be, but I imagine I will have similar results.


Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
I love shield blocking while stunned and prone with a leg missing. ~Ranger Hanryu

There have been countless requests for not only shield, but assorted methods to increase a Warrior mages defensive potential, some argue that Warrior mage merely indicates a wizard of offensive design, some argue that magic is our crutch and compensates properly, what ever the case, it comes down to us needing to take more time to become as formidable as certain other guilds.

At current Warrior mages can compare with a Barbarian, at melee, into their 50th circles, if they stack defensive spells, this is the end of guild comparison if I can help it.

Now from what I've read here, and minor personal experiences past this point, the trouble comes up after these circles, where a gap forms progressively larger as the hard set ranks of our spells become frail in comparison to the potential skill gain offered of a primary skill set.

After this point there is little consolation, mainly coming in the form of a magic resistance rewrite in the wings, and the disabling spells we are offered to afflict our opponents with, other than this we are left with a single option: train. In some cases, four times harder than our competition.

To finalize my rambling, I would, like everyone else, enjoy any sort of resolution to these issues, be it finally gaining a better defensive skill set, or crossing skill set of a select skill or two, or even updating spells at this point where the gap widens, but as things stand, all I believe we can do is understand our situation, and plan early to compensate for what we will inevitably face.

<<They are designed to be used in combat and make it combat easier. That does not make them defensive spells.

<<The Warrior Mage focuses on combat, more specifically magical combat.

<<Defence is a large part of combat, and yet we have an innate lack of defences.

Defence is an innate part of combat, but there are ways to defend yourself beyond just the mundane. (i.e. you can stun everything in the room with TC, or you can bring everything in the room to its knees using FRB). WM's have a number of ways in which to make themselves formidable in combat.

<<Killing things with my sword aids my defenses as well

All guilds can kill with a sword, but only a WM can fight using those spells in order to make combat easier in that way. The ability for my ranger to web something (to me) is very much defensive, as would TC and FRB if I were a WM of similar rank/circle. A paladin might cast halt in order to avoid having that 6th creature at melee with him... to me, that's a good defensive strategy if he knows the 6th one at melee would lead to his death.

It's about gameplay.

Throw all that realism stuff out the window for awhile. Leave that to your RP verbs.

You can't really just say 'We are a combat guild we should get X'.

Things need to vary to keep the guilds different and interesting.

You may wish you had a bigger shield, but I'm sure the barbs wish they could bypass shield.

If you take a step back and look at the whole picture you realize not only do we lose in some areas but we win in alot of others.

The amusing part about this to me is i'm pretty confident that majority of you are actually better off using a small shield anyways when the moment really matters. I suppose bigger is better for training because of durability, but you don't really even need to be wearing it on your arm for training.


I do still wish SW helped shield though. I'm certain it will never happen, but I dream on. I hate eagle dance with a fiery passion that consumes my soul.

---

XXXX signs, "I got a huge wedgie but I'm embarassed to pick it"

XXXX says, "Whos mark is this? Your sabre is a little awkward, but usable."

>Apparently ordinary and oval are the same to my brain.

Even so, you have to be 4th circle to wear any arm-worn over small.

>info

Name: XXX Race: Gor'Tog Guild: None Yet

>app shi careful
You believe that it imposes a low maneuvering hinderance.

This shield is medium in size.

>adj shield
You adjust the straps of your shield, tightening them so that it will fit securely upon your left arm.
>wear shi
The salt-stained shield is too unwieldy for you to wear like that.

-Durnil

>I hate eagle dance with a fiery passion that consumes my soul.

Khri spar is worse by a lot. In random testings I did with some friends a theif hit me easier with LX and khri spar than a barbarian dancing eagle using LB with the same agility and 70 addition ranks in his ranged weapon. And if they snipe they get a bonus beyond that. The stacking of those bonuses is rediculous.

-Tropicalo

<<By extension, it stands to reason that skill sets will play a larger role in determining how long it takes any particular guild to be the 'best' at anything>>

But, because skill sets limit what is possible, a Warrior Mage will never be the best at using a shield or foraging for anything. Especially foraging for anything. Shield we can always hold in our hand, and it doesn't affect our ability to learn shield, it just affects our ability to learn offhand or two-handed weapons while using shield as a defense. Foraging, we can't use precise or careful ever. I just believe that skill set restrictions are pointless. We already learn it slower, so we have to work at it harder to get to the point where we'd gain a feat if it were skill based instead of skill set based, which would definitely fit the "how long it takes any particular guild to be the 'best' at anything" alot more than the arbitrary restriction of what we can and can't do with a shield or searching the area for an herb.

<<Even so, you have to be 4th circle to wear any arm-worn over small.>>

I was saying that I got confused thinking I had an oval shield (medium sized) when I really had an ordinary shield (small size) and was wearing it on my arm.

Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
I love shield blocking while stunned and prone with a leg missing. ~Ranger Hanryu

>I just believe that skill set restrictions are pointless. We already learn it slower, so we have to work at it harder to get to the point where we'd gain a feat if it were skill based instead of skill set based, which would definitely fit the "how long it takes any particular guild to be the 'best' at anything" alot more than the arbitrary restriction of what we can and can't do with a shield or searching the area for an herb.

Wish that would fit in my signature.

---

Fuquois

Regarding NMUs and Magical Devices, all I'll say is this:

Absolute restrictions do not belong in a skill-based game.

---

Fuquois

Jhime hit the nail on the head.


Vinjince

---

"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."

- Sima Yi

>Leave the dead horse out of the shield discussion.

Depending on which shield discussion you mean, the dead horse is already there.

As far as a shield skill booster that is independent of having to have a store-bought quality shield, I'm all for it.

---

Fuquois

Just wanted to clarify that I was actually using the comparison with pride, that a Warrior mage with their current skill set can hold their ground with a barbarian up to 50th circle at melee, even when he's burning flame.

Also that I'm a large advocate of a warrior, who uses magic, but have known my share of wizardly types, we are most definitely a diverse guild, and getting everything right for everyone is not likely to happen, just explaining things as they are from my perspective.

As for the changes, though mildly disheartening to watch through, I'm just being patient and waiting for all the pieces to fall into place before claiming anything else needs to be fixed, just a strong hope that it moves along expediently.

Folks,
I think we're getting a little off track on this already well-beaten discussion. Unless somebody has any new information or suggestions to relay, why don't we call things done here.

Thanks,

Wixs

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