>GM Ssra made it pretty clear to me that this isn't going to happen, so the spell will not allow warrior mages to bypass the restriction on arm-worn shields. He also made it clear that he wouldn't have approved this feature of the 'other spell' in question either, had it been his decision. That's his stance and as long as he's in charge change is very unlikely.

I'm sorry Wythor, but I need clarification before I can let this die in my mind. Maybe I should have emailed this to you instead, but I'm sure others are wondering the same. I promise to leave it alone after this, but I've got to know - are you saying this spell,which is third-tier, is not going to allow us to arm-wear a shield bigger than small? If this is what you're saying, I find this so incredibly disappointing - I just don't know what to say. A third-tier spell isn't exactly an easy bypass, especially considering the two reqs are a 1st tier TM spell and EaS.

Can we get Ssra in here to state his opinion? I think this is an incredible disservice to the guild (I'm not saying it's your fault Wythor - I know how you would like for this spell to look)and I'm not trying to bash any GMs at all. I know you all work hard to make this game balanced. But it's like nobody cares that we're the only combat-heavy guild that doesn't have a defense in their primary skillset (and 2 in tertiary). I can't speak for our upper-level TM spells since I've never used them, but talking w/ higher circle WMs it seems like we see downgrades to our offensive power, and then are completely shut down on the defensive side.

Add in (and I know this is a belabored point, especially of mine) that we get 2/3 the stance bonus as barbarians and paladins, and I just don't get exactly what we're supposed to be good at. Familiars? Well, dark ones don't run when critters are in the room. That's nice. Fir, which is available at 1/3 the circle cap, can drag a mage when stunned and help w/ one spellbook. Solomon says that weapon enchanting is seriously getting looked at - this is exciting.

So really, all I want, all I need for peace of mind as a WM, is an explanation against my argument as a whole. That is, to say, why can't a guild that has A: the smallest primary skillset (which I think more than offsets the spell/3 circles as opposed to spell/4), B: no creation system (where at least 1 guild has had one - a good one - in place for a decade), and C: guild perks like the Pathways and Familiars (as opposed to roars/dances/khri/snipe - to name, admittedly, the best - combat wise) get thrown SOME sort of defense bone. YES, I know SW is really good. I know YS is really good. That's two spells, and otherwise we're left in the lurch defensively. I've always heard the best offense is a good defense, but in our case I think it's supposed to be "the best defense is a pretty good offense." To me, this just doesn't hold water.

I don't think this thread has degenerated into mud-slinging, serious GvG bashing. I see a lot of well-thought out discussion about what many WMs see as a very negative piece of our guild puzzle. Maybe this should have gone in General Discussion, as we're branching into other areas, but I certainly don't think this thread has no place in our folders. I'm reading each post carefully, trying to come up with some good rationalization for why our defenses are hit like they are. I'm still waiting. Please, Wythor, Ssra, help me understand.

Wythor, you're doing a great job. I know you're putting your all into the guild. I don't know how long you've been around, but it seems like you've been with us for a good while, which, when I left last time, was more than I could say for any other WM Guru. Thank you for everything you're doing for us. Please know that I don't post to gripe and complain and whine, but to try to gain a better understanding of why things are the way they are for us.

Thank you
Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.

>>Sure footing provides a bigger agil/ref boost than khri speed and can be capped out at an earlier level<<

SuF's agil/reflex bonus is fairly modest, and definitely less than Khri Speed's.

>>AoG features.

Since we will not be able to arm-wear an AoG larger than small, will the quality of shield produced be improving over the original proposal or the shield ranks granted when creating an AoG increased?

>Since we will not be able to arm-wear an AoG larger than small, will the quality of shield produced be improving over the original proposal or the shield ranks granted when creating an AoG increased?

Small shields have a relatively low cap on protection (I can't remember it offhand), so you better hope you get a rank boost.

> Since we will not be able to arm-wear an AoG larger than small, will the quality of shield produced be improving over the original proposal or the shield ranks granted when creating an AoG increased? Mazrian

I'd love to know this as well. From the original proposal, the only thing that appears to be left is the increased durability at the cost of weight and hindrance. Why exactly would this be a third tier spell for something as mundane as that?

Is it because it can create a store quality shield? I can create store quality weapons with two first tier spells. Why is AeG third tier?

Looking at the spell list, SW only requires Zephyr, making it a second tier spell correct? Am I wrong in expecting something more powerful than SW from a third tier defense related spell? Or worst case, if not more than SW, at least equal...

Can you please elaborate on the shield quality and rank bonus?

I love your work. It's easy to come up with a spell idea. But it takes real creativity to make it into something special, and you do that all the time. In this case though, I'd easily forgo any bells and whistles for a straight shield rank bonus on the level of SW's parry bonus.

Targoth

<<Well, considering WMs are already getting a spell that will allow them to bypass the armor tert restriction and clerics have a way as well, I don't think this one is quite so dead. Bascially 2 out of the 6 guilds that would be absolutely restricted are able to bypass it entirely.>>

You are correct.

Madigan

Define early... I have 500ish pm/har and can only get around 6 agility boost (not really sure its an equal reflex boost or not).



~Worrclan, Dwarf of the Realms-

>>Regardless 8/8 is still very good and can be reached very early in a warmies life time

As a circle 60th WM I am pretty sure I only get +3/+x out of the spell. My 83rd circle WM friend measured a slightly higher increase of +4/+x or so... so no, the total bonus doesn't seem to come very early in a mage's life. Which is fine, the spell is great for a first tier spell. People do seem to like to inflate the numbers on it however. That or our testing methods are all off (weapon Rt's and origami).

---

http://www.drplat.com - The DragonRealms Platinum Community Website. Be sure to vote DragonRealms as your #1 MUD!

Jhime, once again, I'm concerned about use with 2HE, ie, can't hold a shield. And as said in my original post, it's less about the utility of being able to arm-wear a medium shield as it is the simple thought of being able to do so if I desired. I don't think it's right - I never tried to claim anything more than that, and it's the point which I have obviously beat into the ground. It just seems so so wrong to me. And now the AeG change seems even more wrong. But at least I'll clear up all my 30th circle spellslots!

PS - through effort and/or laziness, my shield is slightly higher than my evasion.


Axillus - Halfling Warrior Mage
>You charge your steel-toed footwrap at a musk hog.

Hrm. Im not sure where im getting mixed up, so I'll admit ignorance. As someone once indicated it worked is that at the mana cap to the spell it provided X/X agil ref. I'm assume though maybe its actually x agil/ref based on mana per ever y agility you have up to a cap....But thats a wild guess. I'll let people that know the spell better state it as I've been so off:(

Getting back to the argument though, mages do have a number of defensive utility spells and they can be kept up. I'm not at all against the idea of more warmie defensive perks, but I dont think your current repertoire is poor by any means.

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

This is a probably too GvG-ish, but my ultimate point is that everything basically fine as is.

I've been at this game a long time. I've trained characters in combat taking advantage of every availible ability with 6 different guilds and I've PvPed against even more. I know how all bonuses compare at all levels.

At low levels WMs are among the best in terms of effectiveness vs ranks. That is largely because of the flat rank bonus of SW which has a fairly high soft cap if it has one at all. At higher levels, once you're already getting full bonus from such spells and thus the ratio of bonus vs ranks decreases WMs approach being the least effective in terms of effectiveness vs ranks. What it comes down to is that none of our defensive abilities grow with us at all. YS and SUF stay constant while SW shrinks as we grow in terms of relative effectiveness. Our boosts to TM, the pathways, are negligable boosts compared to any other range boosting things out there.

The place that WMs really win out is in terms of ease of training. WMs have best time here hands down(speaking strictly in terms of combat). With YS we can train more armors without fatally addition hinderance and we can train hiding in heavier armors than anyone else. Thunderclap is possibly the best skill there is for training hiding. While there is a 1 cast per minute per room limit it is still the most frequently, regularly usable room effect stunning ability in the game and the penalty to perception is significant enough to allow you to effectively work hiding at far lower ranks than your fellow hunters. CL can lock your TM faster than anyone can lock any other combat skill in the game. We have great disables which, while not as effective as they once were, are still wonderful for training weapons. Fortress of Ice has its limitations(such as outdoors only) but it is still hands down the most effective crowd control ability in the game. It provides more safty while training multi than anyone else can have when you cannot take advantage of the engagement limit. I could go on but I think I've made my point.

It would be nice to have boosters that grow with us more but WMs are not in a poor place right now.

It would be nice to be armor or survival secondary. If you train properly you'll be just fine as is.

-Tropicalo

>Hey I got an idea!! How about if TM, not just for WMs but across the board, isn't factored by offense stance??? So if you wanted to stance down attack to 0, you could have 2 stances up to 100.

I wholeheartedly disagree that this is a good idea. assuming all defenses are equal, this allows a 10% increase in defenses while losing absolutely no offense. this means that at 1000 ranks of evasion and parry, instead of having 1800 ranks of total defense, you've got 2000. That's a 200-rank bonus.

-Durnil

>Not saying that it would be a good idea, but at 150th WMs have 10 additional stance points allowing 190% defense while 100% offense. At 1000 in each it would be then a 100-rank bonus, not a 200-rank one. I guess you could say it was a 100-rank + (shield/10)-rank bonus.

You could always throw 10% into parry. Wouldn't do much, but you'd learn a bit of parry when you got hit.

>As those who were here before me and as those who will come after me

This is assuming we ever let you leave. We love you too much for that to happen. If necissary I will house, feed, and pay you. ()


Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
I love shield blocking while stunned and prone with a leg missing. ~Ranger Hanryu

P.S. Don't leave this year, I can't get to you from the Middle East
P.P.S. Don't expect a large amount of pay, I am in the military after all...