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Using that ignore button feels better than I thought. Yeesh. Keep that venom on the PC.
~You remove a pair of oval ora-framed spectacles with pale grey lenses from in your ebon linen vest. You unfold the earpieces of your spectacles. You put on a pair of oval ora-framed spectacles with pale grey lenses. You think to yourself, "Deal with it."
> Plenty of people have added their piece early on and are choosing not to argue about it.
I don't like arguing on the internet at all, personally.
But I did want to write a few words here about the Krolvin, since people have mentioned half-krol and this might be the only time staff is really listening. Some years ago when I was still actively editing the wiki, I quietly dropped the wording "ape-like" from the Krolvin page, because I found it extremely cringey that the main historical antagonists of Wehnimer's Landing happened to be a "race of ape-like savages". You can easily describe their physical features without that wording. I couldn't get rid of it from all the pages because it is still part of some in-game descriptions. We can talk about Tolkien and how he struggled his entire life on how orcs are depicted in his stories; it was something he was never satisfied with. When derivative writers made their own settings they copied the orcs but seldom put the same amount of thought into it. All I would like is for the world-builders to reflect on why each element is part of the setting, how to present them, and what they are trying to say about the world, instead of going down a Standard Fantasy Checklist.
I don't like arguing on the internet at all, personally.
But I did want to write a few words here about the Krolvin, since people have mentioned half-krol and this might be the only time staff is really listening. Some years ago when I was still actively editing the wiki, I quietly dropped the wording "ape-like" from the Krolvin page, because I found it extremely cringey that the main historical antagonists of Wehnimer's Landing happened to be a "race of ape-like savages". You can easily describe their physical features without that wording. I couldn't get rid of it from all the pages because it is still part of some in-game descriptions. We can talk about Tolkien and how he struggled his entire life on how orcs are depicted in his stories; it was something he was never satisfied with. When derivative writers made their own settings they copied the orcs but seldom put the same amount of thought into it. All I would like is for the world-builders to reflect on why each element is part of the setting, how to present them, and what they are trying to say about the world, instead of going down a Standard Fantasy Checklist.
::sigh:::
Can we please get a Moderator in here? Some of us are having a civil(if sometimes a bit heated) conversation about all this, with discussion points being brought up on every side. And then we have posters who jump in and contribute nothing other than to attack those who dare to disagree with the proposed design/directional changes as either ignorant, racist, or both.
Why is this allowed?
Avaia, player of
Can we please get a Moderator in here? Some of us are having a civil(if sometimes a bit heated) conversation about all this, with discussion points being brought up on every side. And then we have posters who jump in and contribute nothing other than to attack those who dare to disagree with the proposed design/directional changes as either ignorant, racist, or both.
Why is this allowed?
Avaia, player of
>But I did want to write a few words here about the Krolvin, since people have mentioned half-krol and this might be the only time staff is really listening. Some years ago when I was still actively editing the wiki, I quietly dropped the wording "ape-like" from the Krolvin page, because I found it extremely cringey that the main historical antagonists of Wehnimer's Landing happened to be a "race of ape-like savages". You can easily describe their physical features without that wording. I couldn't get rid of it from all the pages because it is still part of some in-game descriptions. We can talk about Tolkien and how he struggled his entire life on how orcs are depicted in his stories; it was something he was never satisfied with. When derivative writers made their own settings they copied the orcs but seldom put the same amount of thought into it. All I would like is for the world-builders to reflect on why each element is part of the setting, how to present them, and what they are trying to say about the world, instead of going down a Standard Fantasy Checklist.
I like this. Krolvin are something that's truly unique to Gemstone and I want to see them fleshed out more (and add capped creatures!). They deserve better than merely "ape-like."
Award-winning™ Gemstone IV® roleplayer
I like this. Krolvin are something that's truly unique to Gemstone and I want to see them fleshed out more (and add capped creatures!). They deserve better than merely "ape-like."
Award-winning™ Gemstone IV® roleplayer
<<As a gentle reminder, "dark elves" in Elanthia are not the same as dark elves in D&D and other popular RPGs. It was player based lore that developed the perception of what GS dark elves are today. And Simutronics adopted that lore and made it a part of the game with various mechanics systems such as trading. Pre ICE age dark elves were High Elves, and were a completely different race. They were never dark of skin or evil. This trope evolved due to PLAYER roleplaying and development. The Dhe'nar were a completely player created culture, developed and personified by those that chose to play that way.>> - GSROGUE
This isn't quite right. In the Shadow World setting there are two major High Elven lineages, which are called the Iylari. The Linaeri or "singers" are the blonde haired fair elves (probably our "Fair Elves"), and the Loari or "builders" are black haired and pale skinned (probably our "High Elves"). This is on page 45 of the Inhabitants Guide of the 1989 Shadow World Master Atlas. The next page defines the Dyari or "dark elves" as descended from the Loari. They are an "almost invariably evil race of Elves" who are "cunning and cruel" and "ambitious to the end." The rare Dyar who repented evil "slowly transformed physically to resemble the High Elves, the race whence they originally descended."
In the Jaiman (1989) book on page 5 it specifies that they are almost identical in appearance to the other Iylari, except their hair is never blonde and it's more common for them to have streaks of grey or white. The hair color got retconned later. They were not dark skinned or underground like the Drow of Forgotten Realms, but they as a rule lived in hidden communities typically worshipping dark gods (especially who we now call Mularos and Ivas when this is elaborated in later books) or serving the Unlife.
In the second edition of the Master Atlas (1992), page 93, the three have different eye colors and the Loari are distinguished as being especially arrogant, and this is coupled with "lack of morality" in the Dyari. The Dyari still "do not have darker skin than their brethren". They have "pale or even white hair" and their ears "have more pronounced points." The line about physically changing after repenting is dropped. There were players who played their characters as actually being Dyari, and the Dhe'nar came out of that from old players of Dyari. High Elves were going to be changed to Gnomes, and ended up being changed to Dark Elves instead. The initial History of Elanthia document has several names from Forgotten Realms as easter eggs, including Drow noble houses like Despana and Tormtor, so that was pretty clearly an influence on the Faendryl story.
<<It's not enough that darkness is intertwined with being sinister and evil, the documentation goes so far as to essentially say that dark elves are dark-pigmented because of a stain on their race, and that some Faendryl mothers try to lighten the skin of their children to help them better fit in to society. Scrub the epic fantasy references and replace them with mythic history, and they're straight out of Mormon texts justifying the physical 'stain' on black people. ... I agree that's an edge case.>> - Auchand
The darker skin from being closer to the ruins of Maelshyve was always cringey. The Dark Elves being corrupted or physically changed by the evil location, in general, though is pretty deeply rooted. It changed the Grot'karesh giantmen as well, and the Dark Elven language is defined in terms of it. It's even in the gems lore with despanal. The texts are pretty inconsistent on the causes. Some of them talk about the mana foci, some the influence of Despana or sorcery, some the demons and unhealed tear in the veil. With the Dhe'nar being canonized at least some of it has to pre-date Despana and the Undead War. The obvious option would be relating it to some extent to the Ur-Daemon.
This isn't quite right. In the Shadow World setting there are two major High Elven lineages, which are called the Iylari. The Linaeri or "singers" are the blonde haired fair elves (probably our "Fair Elves"), and the Loari or "builders" are black haired and pale skinned (probably our "High Elves"). This is on page 45 of the Inhabitants Guide of the 1989 Shadow World Master Atlas. The next page defines the Dyari or "dark elves" as descended from the Loari. They are an "almost invariably evil race of Elves" who are "cunning and cruel" and "ambitious to the end." The rare Dyar who repented evil "slowly transformed physically to resemble the High Elves, the race whence they originally descended."
In the Jaiman (1989) book on page 5 it specifies that they are almost identical in appearance to the other Iylari, except their hair is never blonde and it's more common for them to have streaks of grey or white. The hair color got retconned later. They were not dark skinned or underground like the Drow of Forgotten Realms, but they as a rule lived in hidden communities typically worshipping dark gods (especially who we now call Mularos and Ivas when this is elaborated in later books) or serving the Unlife.
In the second edition of the Master Atlas (1992), page 93, the three have different eye colors and the Loari are distinguished as being especially arrogant, and this is coupled with "lack of morality" in the Dyari. The Dyari still "do not have darker skin than their brethren". They have "pale or even white hair" and their ears "have more pronounced points." The line about physically changing after repenting is dropped. There were players who played their characters as actually being Dyari, and the Dhe'nar came out of that from old players of Dyari. High Elves were going to be changed to Gnomes, and ended up being changed to Dark Elves instead. The initial History of Elanthia document has several names from Forgotten Realms as easter eggs, including Drow noble houses like Despana and Tormtor, so that was pretty clearly an influence on the Faendryl story.
<<It's not enough that darkness is intertwined with being sinister and evil, the documentation goes so far as to essentially say that dark elves are dark-pigmented because of a stain on their race, and that some Faendryl mothers try to lighten the skin of their children to help them better fit in to society. Scrub the epic fantasy references and replace them with mythic history, and they're straight out of Mormon texts justifying the physical 'stain' on black people. ... I agree that's an edge case.>> - Auchand
The darker skin from being closer to the ruins of Maelshyve was always cringey. The Dark Elves being corrupted or physically changed by the evil location, in general, though is pretty deeply rooted. It changed the Grot'karesh giantmen as well, and the Dark Elven language is defined in terms of it. It's even in the gems lore with despanal. The texts are pretty inconsistent on the causes. Some of them talk about the mana foci, some the influence of Despana or sorcery, some the demons and unhealed tear in the veil. With the Dhe'nar being canonized at least some of it has to pre-date Despana and the Undead War. The obvious option would be relating it to some extent to the Ur-Daemon.
Some of the reactions to my opinions over the past two days have just reinforced why I think this is pointless. I don't feel that my opinion is more valid than anyone elses, but I do feel that I need to clearly state my opinion because I do believe that my life experience has occasionally brought me face to face with prejudice.
I 100% believe that the impetus behind this is selfish desires and greed disguised as altruism.
I disagree wholeheartedly that the game needs to evolve. If folks want a different experience go play a different game. Go create a new game. Same for staff. If you don't like the direction the game is headed you have the same option as many GMs before you, which is to move on and spend your time elsewhere. I don't believe for 1 second that every GM currently staffed is 100% on board with the thinking of some staff members that have been leading this discussion.
The game has been described as so many things over the years but I believe that most people speak of it positively and with great passion because it is so dear to so many and provided an escape for many people that needed one. Changing mechanics is one thing, but changing the WORLD is something else.
Gemstone, in my opinion, is a dark game. Even ignoring half-krolvin origin lore, the game is dark. There is a very real fear that once a few things are tweaked then some other things will be changed and some more things after that and then is the game even Gemstone anymore?
I've seen the list of issues as posted on this board and it looks like a bunch of junk only whiny elves could come up with (I play a dark elf, not an elf). Most of the changes seem very squarely focused on elves other than the staff mentioning they want to expand half-krolvin lore.
I was flat out told I didn't understand the issue because I play in platinum by another player. This is exactly my point with this mess. You want to talk about prejudice? Anytime a platinum player opens their mouth you can bet money there is a prime player ready to throw out a snide comment and diss platinum. Maybe platinum started it, heck if I know. I only really started playing platinum in earnest about 4 years ago but the attitude was pretty prevalent. Some players just like to play in a much smaller instance, but for whatever reason some players (AND STAFF) think platinum shouldn't exist.
I was also told it was too complex for me to understand simply because I don't agree with their opinion. I think its the other way around because we're taking a fantasy world with defined rules where we, most important of all, pretty much control our destiny through our own choices. The folks pushing for these changes aren't offended by these fantasy tropes (they've managed to convince some GMs they are though). If you don't like how your character is treated you can roll up a new one any time you want. You can move to any city you want. You can choose to interact with folks and earn a living or completely ignore everyone and still earn a living. You can be any profession you want. You can be any race you want or sexual orientation or follow whatever religion you want.
If you asked me if I could choose to be a white american before I was married and had my son, I would have said yes. You have to be absolutely crazy to WANT to be black in america. No one in their right mind chooses the option where they might encounter hate and potentially have to endure a whole lot of suffering. Being black doesn't make my life any more joyful than someone else's but it sure as heck does allow the potential for me to encounter more prejudice than other races might. Being any race doesn't make life more meaningful, but I'm pretty darn sure that if the math were done being white would provide better odds at not encountering prejudice than some other colors. I've taken a hard look at myself over the years and understand that my lot in life is a heck of a lot better than millions of people around the world. I understand 100% that in today's world there are many peoples that struggle to have enough to eat and clean water to drink. That it is a matter of course that a family member will be killed before they are an adult. That the odds of them being sold into slavery or sexual trafficking is more than 50%. That some people have very little choice in who they will love, what they will be, what they can learn. The value of life is not in how much you can claim to have suffered. The hand that some folks are dealt in life is truly horrid, but I don't think for 1 second that meaningful and lasting change will come about from any changes made to this game. That's just fantasy.
I 100% believe that the impetus behind this is selfish desires and greed disguised as altruism.
I disagree wholeheartedly that the game needs to evolve. If folks want a different experience go play a different game. Go create a new game. Same for staff. If you don't like the direction the game is headed you have the same option as many GMs before you, which is to move on and spend your time elsewhere. I don't believe for 1 second that every GM currently staffed is 100% on board with the thinking of some staff members that have been leading this discussion.
The game has been described as so many things over the years but I believe that most people speak of it positively and with great passion because it is so dear to so many and provided an escape for many people that needed one. Changing mechanics is one thing, but changing the WORLD is something else.
Gemstone, in my opinion, is a dark game. Even ignoring half-krolvin origin lore, the game is dark. There is a very real fear that once a few things are tweaked then some other things will be changed and some more things after that and then is the game even Gemstone anymore?
I've seen the list of issues as posted on this board and it looks like a bunch of junk only whiny elves could come up with (I play a dark elf, not an elf). Most of the changes seem very squarely focused on elves other than the staff mentioning they want to expand half-krolvin lore.
I was flat out told I didn't understand the issue because I play in platinum by another player. This is exactly my point with this mess. You want to talk about prejudice? Anytime a platinum player opens their mouth you can bet money there is a prime player ready to throw out a snide comment and diss platinum. Maybe platinum started it, heck if I know. I only really started playing platinum in earnest about 4 years ago but the attitude was pretty prevalent. Some players just like to play in a much smaller instance, but for whatever reason some players (AND STAFF) think platinum shouldn't exist.
I was also told it was too complex for me to understand simply because I don't agree with their opinion. I think its the other way around because we're taking a fantasy world with defined rules where we, most important of all, pretty much control our destiny through our own choices. The folks pushing for these changes aren't offended by these fantasy tropes (they've managed to convince some GMs they are though). If you don't like how your character is treated you can roll up a new one any time you want. You can move to any city you want. You can choose to interact with folks and earn a living or completely ignore everyone and still earn a living. You can be any profession you want. You can be any race you want or sexual orientation or follow whatever religion you want.
If you asked me if I could choose to be a white american before I was married and had my son, I would have said yes. You have to be absolutely crazy to WANT to be black in america. No one in their right mind chooses the option where they might encounter hate and potentially have to endure a whole lot of suffering. Being black doesn't make my life any more joyful than someone else's but it sure as heck does allow the potential for me to encounter more prejudice than other races might. Being any race doesn't make life more meaningful, but I'm pretty darn sure that if the math were done being white would provide better odds at not encountering prejudice than some other colors. I've taken a hard look at myself over the years and understand that my lot in life is a heck of a lot better than millions of people around the world. I understand 100% that in today's world there are many peoples that struggle to have enough to eat and clean water to drink. That it is a matter of course that a family member will be killed before they are an adult. That the odds of them being sold into slavery or sexual trafficking is more than 50%. That some people have very little choice in who they will love, what they will be, what they can learn. The value of life is not in how much you can claim to have suffered. The hand that some folks are dealt in life is truly horrid, but I don't think for 1 second that meaningful and lasting change will come about from any changes made to this game. That's just fantasy.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
<<Can we please get a Moderator in here? Some of us are having a civil(if sometimes a bit heated) conversation about all this, with discussion points being brought up on every side. And then we have posters who jump in and contribute nothing other than to attack those who dare to disagree with the proposed design/directional changes as either ignorant, racist, or both.>>
Who exactly has attacked you and how? I've been following this thread closely and I fail to see whatever personal attacks or vitriol you're referring to, Avaia.
I've been quite impressed and proud of the playerbase for discussing this without resulting to personal insults? An opposing opinion that is well written is not an attack on the opposite side. And yes, that goes for most posters I've seen on the opposite side of the issue than I am on.
Who exactly has attacked you and how? I've been following this thread closely and I fail to see whatever personal attacks or vitriol you're referring to, Avaia.
I've been quite impressed and proud of the playerbase for discussing this without resulting to personal insults? An opposing opinion that is well written is not an attack on the opposite side. And yes, that goes for most posters I've seen on the opposite side of the issue than I am on.
<Who exactly has attacked you and how? I've been following this thread closely and I fail to see whatever personal attacks or vitriol you're referring to, Avaia.>
If you go back and look at the post numbers, you can see a bunch were pulled. I dunno what was in them, but I assume they're what Avaia was referring to.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
If you go back and look at the post numbers, you can see a bunch were pulled. I dunno what was in them, but I assume they're what Avaia was referring to.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
<<If you go back and look at the post numbers, you can see a bunch were pulled. I dunno what was in them, but I assume they're what Avaia was referring to.>>
Well if they were pulled, obviously there was a reason to do so, so without context it seems the goal is to keep the conversation civil. Unless someone is arguing the pulled posts were censorship of their opinions. I can't speak to that, I didn't see the pulled posts. But the conversation has seemed civil, even if one sided.
Well if they were pulled, obviously there was a reason to do so, so without context it seems the goal is to keep the conversation civil. Unless someone is arguing the pulled posts were censorship of their opinions. I can't speak to that, I didn't see the pulled posts. But the conversation has seemed civil, even if one sided.
<<I've been quite impressed and proud of the playerbase for discussing this without resulting to personal insults? An opposing opinion that is well written is not an attack on the opposite side. And yes, that goes for most posters I've seen on the opposite side of the issue than I am on.
Person A insulted Person B because Person B didn't agree with Person A's stance on the matter. Person B then rebuttal-ed and insulted person A.
It was purely petty name calling, no actual constructive commentary.
In the case of "kitten pies" and rude merchants and the like, I don't think the intent is to remove everything that bad or squicky or objectionable at all. There are always going to be some things that certain people find objectionable, and some things that others don't. That's fine. I totally get the concern of censorship, and I would be the first to argue for more inclusion of such challenging content -- and to slap a Teen rating on the game, or whatever -- as long as that material was not absolutely tone-deaf to the general climate of the world at large. That last part is the most important part. I'm not going to name specifics, but I'm sure there are plenty of cases of things that people could implement that would be in "poor taste".
That's all that this seems to be; not a "scrubbing of history", but a few minor tweaks to remove or change or add to things that are now, in hindsight, in somewhat poor taste. Other than the mechanical changes which I think most people would be behind (not having selling penalties, specifically, which people have been asking for for years), the remainder is simply being cognizant enough to avoid those mistakes in the future, and to work toward events which might result in more solidarity moving forward. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most of us would actually enjoy that.
For example:
>They could even make the fight against the evil old god an allegory of people banding together to fight against racism and discrimination.
I think that's a great idea, personally. I don't think the exception being taken here is to the concept of "Evil" at all, but rather, to drawing innate racial parallels to such that then echo back to instances in real life, such as racial slurs that mimic ones used in real life. If you want to play your character as "evil" or perceiving another person or even race as evil, or explore various topics that might be considered challenging or even taboo... I don't think that's necessarily being forbidden or even discouraged. The point is that the game shouldn't reflect that right out of the box. That should be your individual choice to make.
To reiterate: I would wager that very few people -- if any -- will have to modify anything regarding their characters and their backstories at all, beyond maybe a few mild tweaks. I am leaning toward thinking that this will be a mild fleshing-out, rather than a mass sanitation as seems to be the primary point of concern.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
That's all that this seems to be; not a "scrubbing of history", but a few minor tweaks to remove or change or add to things that are now, in hindsight, in somewhat poor taste. Other than the mechanical changes which I think most people would be behind (not having selling penalties, specifically, which people have been asking for for years), the remainder is simply being cognizant enough to avoid those mistakes in the future, and to work toward events which might result in more solidarity moving forward. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most of us would actually enjoy that.
For example:
>They could even make the fight against the evil old god an allegory of people banding together to fight against racism and discrimination.
I think that's a great idea, personally. I don't think the exception being taken here is to the concept of "Evil" at all, but rather, to drawing innate racial parallels to such that then echo back to instances in real life, such as racial slurs that mimic ones used in real life. If you want to play your character as "evil" or perceiving another person or even race as evil, or explore various topics that might be considered challenging or even taboo... I don't think that's necessarily being forbidden or even discouraged. The point is that the game shouldn't reflect that right out of the box. That should be your individual choice to make.
To reiterate: I would wager that very few people -- if any -- will have to modify anything regarding their characters and their backstories at all, beyond maybe a few mild tweaks. I am leaning toward thinking that this will be a mild fleshing-out, rather than a mass sanitation as seems to be the primary point of concern.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
>not having selling penalties, specifically, which people have been asking for for years), the remainder is simply being cognizant enough to avoid those mistakes in the future, and to work toward events which might result in more solidarity moving forward. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most of us would actually enjoy that.
I respectfully and kindly ask you to stop speaking for "most people" as I am specifically and strongly against this point in particular. In real life, trading penalties/bonuses are supported by LANGUAGE/cultural barriers, common ground, and business savvy or flat out business promotions/discounts, with NOTHING to do specifically with being racist or not. Do you really think you're going to, as an English speaker, go to a market in Asia and bargain and receive the same price as a native? Or the same in Latin America or in Europe? This is how the world and BUSINESS work, and THAT has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with continued attempts to enhance automated silver farming for profit by certain players without paying for a Premium subscription for the neutral trading ground perk.
If someone, as a lawyer, was to negotiate with someone in a foreign country under terms they don't recognize and legal jargon/precedent with which they are unfamiliar, should they and WOULD they expect to receive the same legal and business result as a native? It would be ridiculous to say yes, when that is patently false.
Attempting to categorize specifics like trading bonus/penalty as "racism" is actually doing a massive disservice to real life racism that people endure on a daily basis, and it's frankly a cheap ploy to further enable automated silver farming to ruin the game economy with hyperinflation without actually going through the hassle of traveling to a separate town to do selling or paying for the Premium perk of having a neutral trading ground.
Now, in GS, language and race are intrinsically tied together in a way that is impossible to separate. There is no option to "learn" another language or become fully integrated in another culture beyond paying for a high-end and rare auction item. Are we suddenly going to allow everyone to learn all languages at will?
GAMES should all force meaningful choice. Choice in residence and choice of mechanical benefits for race are things you CHOOSE upon character creation. Currently, trading bonuses/penalties, and neutral trading options exist for EVERY character of any race, it is just not the same everywhere. There's a town for everyone to receive a benefit or not, and trading bonus is one mechanical advantage and tradeoff certain characters accept for the other mechanical deficiencies they CHOOSE, instead of requiring everyone be cookie cutter and homogenous.
I disagree with any concept supporting changing the basic stat and mechanical benefits of any race (yes, including trading bonuses/penalties) as these are all things people heavily invested into the game in terms of time and character commitment CHOSE upon accepting to play the game. Any suggestion of a FIXRACE is totally out of place, both for RP purposes in a GAME, and mechanically, as every facet of most characters' RP, alterations, customizations, and even residence are intrinsically tied to the race/stat benefits they chose to accept in a way that is impossible to reconcile or fix if the entire race changed suddenly, without just flat out starting a new game. I'm tired of constantly hearing suggestions that our characters and gear should be considered disposable, which frankly, is not what has kept the game alive all these years.
These things are entirely separate from, and being conflated with, actual in-game mechanics that obviously reflect problematic racism with inescapable parallels to real life, historical events, such as requiring proof of racial purity via Ta'vaalor papers, requiring one to be pure of race for citizenship (again only a problem Ta'vaalor/Ta'illistim and no other towns support), and normalizing the demeaning/derogatory segregation of dark elves from the entire Elven Nation inns with select exceptions.
I respectfully and kindly ask you to stop speaking for "most people" as I am specifically and strongly against this point in particular. In real life, trading penalties/bonuses are supported by LANGUAGE/cultural barriers, common ground, and business savvy or flat out business promotions/discounts, with NOTHING to do specifically with being racist or not. Do you really think you're going to, as an English speaker, go to a market in Asia and bargain and receive the same price as a native? Or the same in Latin America or in Europe? This is how the world and BUSINESS work, and THAT has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with continued attempts to enhance automated silver farming for profit by certain players without paying for a Premium subscription for the neutral trading ground perk.
If someone, as a lawyer, was to negotiate with someone in a foreign country under terms they don't recognize and legal jargon/precedent with which they are unfamiliar, should they and WOULD they expect to receive the same legal and business result as a native? It would be ridiculous to say yes, when that is patently false.
Attempting to categorize specifics like trading bonus/penalty as "racism" is actually doing a massive disservice to real life racism that people endure on a daily basis, and it's frankly a cheap ploy to further enable automated silver farming to ruin the game economy with hyperinflation without actually going through the hassle of traveling to a separate town to do selling or paying for the Premium perk of having a neutral trading ground.
Now, in GS, language and race are intrinsically tied together in a way that is impossible to separate. There is no option to "learn" another language or become fully integrated in another culture beyond paying for a high-end and rare auction item. Are we suddenly going to allow everyone to learn all languages at will?
GAMES should all force meaningful choice. Choice in residence and choice of mechanical benefits for race are things you CHOOSE upon character creation. Currently, trading bonuses/penalties, and neutral trading options exist for EVERY character of any race, it is just not the same everywhere. There's a town for everyone to receive a benefit or not, and trading bonus is one mechanical advantage and tradeoff certain characters accept for the other mechanical deficiencies they CHOOSE, instead of requiring everyone be cookie cutter and homogenous.
I disagree with any concept supporting changing the basic stat and mechanical benefits of any race (yes, including trading bonuses/penalties) as these are all things people heavily invested into the game in terms of time and character commitment CHOSE upon accepting to play the game. Any suggestion of a FIXRACE is totally out of place, both for RP purposes in a GAME, and mechanically, as every facet of most characters' RP, alterations, customizations, and even residence are intrinsically tied to the race/stat benefits they chose to accept in a way that is impossible to reconcile or fix if the entire race changed suddenly, without just flat out starting a new game. I'm tired of constantly hearing suggestions that our characters and gear should be considered disposable, which frankly, is not what has kept the game alive all these years.
These things are entirely separate from, and being conflated with, actual in-game mechanics that obviously reflect problematic racism with inescapable parallels to real life, historical events, such as requiring proof of racial purity via Ta'vaalor papers, requiring one to be pure of race for citizenship (again only a problem Ta'vaalor/Ta'illistim and no other towns support), and normalizing the demeaning/derogatory segregation of dark elves from the entire Elven Nation inns with select exceptions.
>I respectfully and kindly ask you to stop speaking for "most people" as I am specifically and strongly against this point in particular.
Absolutely fine, that's why I said "correct me if I'm wrong" -- that's one vote against, and I hope the implication that I was speaking from casual observation and not absolute authority was understood. The racial trading modifier is a point that's been brought up numerous times (and relatively recently), which I'm sure you can go back and find if you wish... so I won't go into that in detail.
>This is how the world and BUSINESS work, and THAT has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with continued attempts to enhance automated silver farming for profit by certain players without paying for a Premium subscription for the neutral trading ground perk.
I mean... that seems a bit of a stretch to me. That may be a consequential effect of such, but to believe that it's the intentional motivator behind it seems a bit presumptuous.
>There's a town for everyone to receive a benefit or not, and trading bonus is one mechanical advantage and tradeoff certain characters accept for the other mechanical deficiencies they CHOOSE, instead of requiring everyone be cookie cutter and homogeneous.
That's not actually true, as the racial discrepancies are in no way evenly distributed; that's also been a common complaint. I'm not saying that tradeoffs should be nonexistent -- nor do I generally support homogeneity of any sort -- but the gist of the argument made by some was these differences should be enforced more by roleplay than mechanics. I don't agree that all mechanical differences should be removed, but I do understand the barrier to entry that some my experiences as being a turn-off. And there are certain mechanics that I just plain wish didn't exist, so that we could navigate those experiences on our own... so I get it.
>I disagree with any concept supporting changing the basic stat and mechanical benefits of any race (yes, including trading bonuses/penalties) as these are all things people heavily invested into the game in terms of time and character commitment CHOSE upon accepting to play the game.
That, I will agree on -- I don't believe that's necessarily onerous enough to need to change, so point there.
>These things are entirely separate from, and being conflated with, actual in-game mechanics that obviously reflect problematic racism with inescapable parallels to real life, historical events, such as requiring proof of racial purity via Ta'vaalor papers, requiring one to be pure of race for citizenship (again only a problem Ta'vaalor/Ta'illistim and no other towns support), and normalizing the demeaning/derogatory segregation of dark elves from the entire Elven Nation inns with select exceptions.
Another excellent point.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
Absolutely fine, that's why I said "correct me if I'm wrong" -- that's one vote against, and I hope the implication that I was speaking from casual observation and not absolute authority was understood. The racial trading modifier is a point that's been brought up numerous times (and relatively recently), which I'm sure you can go back and find if you wish... so I won't go into that in detail.
>This is how the world and BUSINESS work, and THAT has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with continued attempts to enhance automated silver farming for profit by certain players without paying for a Premium subscription for the neutral trading ground perk.
I mean... that seems a bit of a stretch to me. That may be a consequential effect of such, but to believe that it's the intentional motivator behind it seems a bit presumptuous.
>There's a town for everyone to receive a benefit or not, and trading bonus is one mechanical advantage and tradeoff certain characters accept for the other mechanical deficiencies they CHOOSE, instead of requiring everyone be cookie cutter and homogeneous.
That's not actually true, as the racial discrepancies are in no way evenly distributed; that's also been a common complaint. I'm not saying that tradeoffs should be nonexistent -- nor do I generally support homogeneity of any sort -- but the gist of the argument made by some was these differences should be enforced more by roleplay than mechanics. I don't agree that all mechanical differences should be removed, but I do understand the barrier to entry that some my experiences as being a turn-off. And there are certain mechanics that I just plain wish didn't exist, so that we could navigate those experiences on our own... so I get it.
>I disagree with any concept supporting changing the basic stat and mechanical benefits of any race (yes, including trading bonuses/penalties) as these are all things people heavily invested into the game in terms of time and character commitment CHOSE upon accepting to play the game.
That, I will agree on -- I don't believe that's necessarily onerous enough to need to change, so point there.
>These things are entirely separate from, and being conflated with, actual in-game mechanics that obviously reflect problematic racism with inescapable parallels to real life, historical events, such as requiring proof of racial purity via Ta'vaalor papers, requiring one to be pure of race for citizenship (again only a problem Ta'vaalor/Ta'illistim and no other towns support), and normalizing the demeaning/derogatory segregation of dark elves from the entire Elven Nation inns with select exceptions.
Another excellent point.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
>Some of the reactions to my opinions over the past two days have just reinforced why I think this is pointless. I don't feel that my opinion is more valid than anyone elses, but I do feel that I need to clearly state my opinion because I do believe that my life experience has occasionally brought me face to face with prejudice.
That is absolutely fine; I think you should voice your opinion here, and fully support you doing so... especially as someone it potentially pertains to. In theory, we're all adults and can have a conversation about it... even if opinions are wild and varied, and there are a lot of people saying a lot of different things (and a lot of conflation occurring).
I have no reason to believe that this is going to spiral into huge, sweeping changes that make Gemstone an unrecognizable entity. There have been plenty of changes in the last decade -- hell, even in the last month -- for sure, but they've been overwhelmingly positive changes that have largely expanded the world and improved the quality of life for us, as players, within it. Do I agree with every change that's been made, and will I agree with every change that will be made? Absolutely not. But I have seen absolutely zero evidence that this will result in anything vast and impacting enough to render the environment unrecognizable, nor Gemstone unplayable; that is the quintessential slippery slope fallacy that keeps recurring. I understand the reaction, and I understand the emotions behind it -- this is game that most of us have a strong attachment to, and enjoy immensely. I am no exception, and I'm not saying that anyone is wrong to feel that way -- I simply don't see any evidence to support that claim.
If and when I do see something that would suggest these changes will lead to negative effects for the player-base at large, I will absolutely say something.
>The hand that some folks are dealt in life is truly horrid, but I don't think for 1 second that meaningful and lasting change will come about from any changes made to this game. That's just fantasy.
If you don't believe that, I get it. You have every reason not to believe it, and the honest truth is that you may not be wrong. The hope, however, isn't the naivety that this one tiny thing will cause sweeping change... but that slow progress made throughout numerous facets of our society will eventually lead to more positive changes outwardly. That's how it's typically worked.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
That is absolutely fine; I think you should voice your opinion here, and fully support you doing so... especially as someone it potentially pertains to. In theory, we're all adults and can have a conversation about it... even if opinions are wild and varied, and there are a lot of people saying a lot of different things (and a lot of conflation occurring).
I have no reason to believe that this is going to spiral into huge, sweeping changes that make Gemstone an unrecognizable entity. There have been plenty of changes in the last decade -- hell, even in the last month -- for sure, but they've been overwhelmingly positive changes that have largely expanded the world and improved the quality of life for us, as players, within it. Do I agree with every change that's been made, and will I agree with every change that will be made? Absolutely not. But I have seen absolutely zero evidence that this will result in anything vast and impacting enough to render the environment unrecognizable, nor Gemstone unplayable; that is the quintessential slippery slope fallacy that keeps recurring. I understand the reaction, and I understand the emotions behind it -- this is game that most of us have a strong attachment to, and enjoy immensely. I am no exception, and I'm not saying that anyone is wrong to feel that way -- I simply don't see any evidence to support that claim.
If and when I do see something that would suggest these changes will lead to negative effects for the player-base at large, I will absolutely say something.
>The hand that some folks are dealt in life is truly horrid, but I don't think for 1 second that meaningful and lasting change will come about from any changes made to this game. That's just fantasy.
If you don't believe that, I get it. You have every reason not to believe it, and the honest truth is that you may not be wrong. The hope, however, isn't the naivety that this one tiny thing will cause sweeping change... but that slow progress made throughout numerous facets of our society will eventually lead to more positive changes outwardly. That's how it's typically worked.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
Thank you, GMs, for your tireless work on all aspects of our beloved game! Thank you, fellow players, for coming to the table and engaging in reasonable dialog.
I respect the passion with which many of you have approached this topic.
Games are powerful, but I think it's disingenuous to suggest the data support the claim that games can normalize any behavior in the real world. This is an erroneous belief that has terrifying implications for the gaming industry. It is an assertion that, after decades of related research, still has no merit. That said, if that's what we're asserting, then staff have a responsibility to take action.
I like and agree with your list, but I would like to humbly propose a 4th option to staff:
4) Accept the idea that GS has culpability for perpetuating problems in the real world, universally, and take action by building an actionable system that allows the end of racism within Gemstone to come about from the playerbase itself as expressed through their character interactions.
For me, that has been a very compelling reason to roleplay. Character development in that vein is vital to the progression of the story in that vein. That process is the essence of the story, not the white space (no pun intended, but take from it what you will)! Most of the proposals from staff in this thread seem to have stemmed directly from those sorts of interactions, which is fantastic! To me, mechanically, this is exactly the process by which Gemstone realizes its version of a civil rights movement.
. . however . .
Please reconsider taking the approach of revisionist history in regards to races you are asserting are analogous to real life races. Rewriting the history of oppression for an oppressed race that serves as an analog for a real life oppressed race sort of undermines the whole process of recognition and reconciliation - the story we could and should be telling.
Stanford University's Antero Garcia explores more than a few of the concerns and questions raised on these forums in his 2017 "Privilege, Power, and Dungeons & Dragons: How Systems Shape Racial and Gender Identities in Tabletop Role-Playing Games (check it for free @ https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1080/10749039.2017.1293691 )."
Ragz
I respect the passion with which many of you have approached this topic.
| Wyrom |
| It is our responsibility to examine our culpability in normalizing racism as a "fun" or "harmless" diversion and how that perpetuates systemic racism in the real world. |
Games are powerful, but I think it's disingenuous to suggest the data support the claim that games can normalize any behavior in the real world. This is an erroneous belief that has terrifying implications for the gaming industry. It is an assertion that, after decades of related research, still has no merit. That said, if that's what we're asserting, then staff have a responsibility to take action.
| Leafiara |
| On my part, I see three options in response to this: |
| 1) Reject the idea that GS has culpability for perpetuating problems in the real world |
| 2) Accept the idea that GS has culpability, but explain away why this only applies to some problems and not others (or, at least, why it only applies to such a degree to merit taking action) |
| 3) Accept the idea that GS has culpability for perpetuating problems in the real world, universally, and thus make the case against everything which is problematic |
I like and agree with your list, but I would like to humbly propose a 4th option to staff:
4) Accept the idea that GS has culpability for perpetuating problems in the real world, universally, and take action by building an actionable system that allows the end of racism within Gemstone to come about from the playerbase itself as expressed through their character interactions.
For me, that has been a very compelling reason to roleplay. Character development in that vein is vital to the progression of the story in that vein. That process is the essence of the story, not the white space (no pun intended, but take from it what you will)! Most of the proposals from staff in this thread seem to have stemmed directly from those sorts of interactions, which is fantastic! To me, mechanically, this is exactly the process by which Gemstone realizes its version of a civil rights movement.
. . however . .
Please reconsider taking the approach of revisionist history in regards to races you are asserting are analogous to real life races. Rewriting the history of oppression for an oppressed race that serves as an analog for a real life oppressed race sort of undermines the whole process of recognition and reconciliation - the story we could and should be telling.
Stanford University's Antero Garcia explores more than a few of the concerns and questions raised on these forums in his 2017 "Privilege, Power, and Dungeons & Dragons: How Systems Shape Racial and Gender Identities in Tabletop Role-Playing Games (check it for free @ https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1080/10749039.2017.1293691 )."
Ragz
>Please reconsider taking the approach of revisionist history in regards to races you are asserting are analogous to real life races. Rewriting the history of oppression for an oppressed race that serves as an analog for a real life oppressed race sort of undermines the whole process of recognition and reconciliation - the story we could and should be telling.
I think the latter is more of what we are contemplating.
~Kveta
I think the latter is more of what we are contemplating.
~Kveta
I know there has been a lot said and posted, and in many cases a lot of information to digest. Thank you for the constructive and thoughtful posts and ideas I have read here.
Like Leafiara, I have had a lot of my own questions over the past weeks, and I am lucky enough to have a great team and great friends to work with who I can talk to.
I admire everyone's courage in coming here, even if you were unsure at first or still have your own doubts or questions.
Thank you for being patient as we work out details. I am looking forward to what will come.
~ Valyrka ~
Ta'Illistim
Elves
Dark Elves
Avawren ~ I have Survival and a knife. I can work it out.
Like Leafiara, I have had a lot of my own questions over the past weeks, and I am lucky enough to have a great team and great friends to work with who I can talk to.
I admire everyone's courage in coming here, even if you were unsure at first or still have your own doubts or questions.
Thank you for being patient as we work out details. I am looking forward to what will come.
~ Valyrka ~
Ta'Illistim
Elves
Dark Elves
Avawren ~ I have Survival and a knife. I can work it out.
>... recognition and reconciliation - the story we could and should be telling. ~RAGZ
That's one of the things players have asked for. A way forward. Events in the last few years have set those doors ajar, but without resolution. We need to see action in places like the Valley of Gold treatise, Faendryl embassy, revocation of Chaston's Edict, and reconsideration around racial restrictions of MHOs and associated roleplay opportunities.
Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
That's one of the things players have asked for. A way forward. Events in the last few years have set those doors ajar, but without resolution. We need to see action in places like the Valley of Gold treatise, Faendryl embassy, revocation of Chaston's Edict, and reconsideration around racial restrictions of MHOs and associated roleplay opportunities.
Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
Thank you to Kveta for a thoughtful, concise, and patient response pose to mine. This'll obviously take some time to further digest, but my initial big three takeaways are:
* The focus of creating change should, and likely even must, be on a limited number of things at a time because resources are limited. So, then, a focus on any one thing isn't intended to diminish concerns over other things. (This part is intuitive and doesn't need any further digesting, so I'm just happy it was stated explicitly and I can move beyond it.)
* The metaphorical dividing line between problematic and (comparatively) unproblematic elements in the game world is perhaps not a hard or easily quantified line, but one felt out based on two primary factors: the scope/scale of the real world parallel, and the scope/scale of its presence within the game (both of which stem to some degree from history).
* RP momentum built up through historical incentive, however unfortunate that momentum and incentive might be viewed in hindsight, either can't or shouldn't aim for a hardline or "cold turkey" change from top down, but a more organic movement primarily driven from the bottom up with some level of encouragement from the framers of the game world.
I hope that's a fair and accurate interpretation. What I think of the latter points will have to wait until I take them in further*, but regardless, thank you for the dialogue.
*Well, the third one in a vacuum is immediately understandable to me, but it's not in a vacuum; it's inextricably tied to first working through my other hurdle of deciding the degree (if any) to which we should account for the real world as a guiding factor in our roleplaying, which I'm also still separately trying to work out for myself.
* The focus of creating change should, and likely even must, be on a limited number of things at a time because resources are limited. So, then, a focus on any one thing isn't intended to diminish concerns over other things. (This part is intuitive and doesn't need any further digesting, so I'm just happy it was stated explicitly and I can move beyond it.)
* The metaphorical dividing line between problematic and (comparatively) unproblematic elements in the game world is perhaps not a hard or easily quantified line, but one felt out based on two primary factors: the scope/scale of the real world parallel, and the scope/scale of its presence within the game (both of which stem to some degree from history).
* RP momentum built up through historical incentive, however unfortunate that momentum and incentive might be viewed in hindsight, either can't or shouldn't aim for a hardline or "cold turkey" change from top down, but a more organic movement primarily driven from the bottom up with some level of encouragement from the framers of the game world.
I hope that's a fair and accurate interpretation. What I think of the latter points will have to wait until I take them in further*, but regardless, thank you for the dialogue.
*Well, the third one in a vacuum is immediately understandable to me, but it's not in a vacuum; it's inextricably tied to first working through my other hurdle of deciding the degree (if any) to which we should account for the real world as a guiding factor in our roleplaying, which I'm also still separately trying to work out for myself.
>Why are staff threatening and harassing paying customers in this thread? Why is it being condoned? Maybe Simutronics should worry about controlling the antics of their employees before worrying about pretending to do something about real life issues?
Lolwhut are you talking about?
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
Lolwhut are you talking about?
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
I think it is hard to deny that there are some needlessly clumsy systems/aspects which needlessly mirror real world problems, such as Dark Elves being the only race discriminated against everywhere in the game, versus having their own Realm. In most games there is some sort of balance via trade-offs that is just not present here that is rather problematic when you hold it up to the light.
Unfortunately, I have some reservations about these changes:
1. How many Black voices have you included in the re-examining of the current systems/lore?
2. Going forward, how do you plan to include Black voices in the creation of new lore and systems?
3. Have you considered paying an outside expert to help you navigate this process?
I think it's easy for non-Black people to tell other non-Black people what Black people want, but without including more Black voices, these changes are entirely performative. Maybe these questions were already answered somewhere in this thread, but I didn't see it after page 4 and it's a bit hard to absorb some of the less sympathetic content in this thread.
AIM: m444w
Discord: Ondreian#3875
Unfortunately, I have some reservations about these changes:
1. How many Black voices have you included in the re-examining of the current systems/lore?
2. Going forward, how do you plan to include Black voices in the creation of new lore and systems?
3. Have you considered paying an outside expert to help you navigate this process?
I think it's easy for non-Black people to tell other non-Black people what Black people want, but without including more Black voices, these changes are entirely performative. Maybe these questions were already answered somewhere in this thread, but I didn't see it after page 4 and it's a bit hard to absorb some of the less sympathetic content in this thread.
AIM: m444w
Discord: Ondreian#3875
Don't get me wrong folks. I'm glad we're having this debate, and i'm probably going to express a fairly unpopular opinion here.
So, first things first. I've been an off and on part of this community since the early to mid 90s. I played a bit on GEnie, played a lot on AOL, and i made the transition along with the rest of Simu to the web. I left for the better part of 6 years, and i came back and started playing Hapenlok, instead of my warrior, who was actually the main character on my account. I've pretty much been playing Hapenlok Exclusively for the past seven years. If you had told 13 year old me, that i'd still be playing this game on the sunny side of forty? i probably would have laughed at you.
I've had a lot of trials and tribulations over my life. Things didn't go exactly the way i wanted. I was stuck for a long time working in a place i grew to hate, and there were times i couldn't even stand to look at myself in the mirror. I turned to this game as my escape. as an old school first edition D&D Player, I actually enjoyed playing a wizard. I outgrew the Rest, where i had left my wizard when i took a 6 year break from the game until i got sick in 2013, and was looking to fill the hours. so i came back. Just in time for Kenstrom's Cross into Shadows. Since then, i took control of my life, and took a position as a Communications Specialist for my hometown police department.
So, a while into the storyline, Kenstrom solicited our character biographies for future use against us. :P I actually found myself enjoying putting pen to paper again. I'm not going to bore you with all the details suffice it to say, i took from this game's canon two major events for my backstory(Actually three, but only two are germaine to this topic). The Krolvin attacks on River's Rest, and Chaston's Edict. I'm also going to be honest, Hatred of Krolvin is kind of what made my bones in this game. Racist (off-screen) humans also were a major part of how i portrayed my character. Fun Fact: i used to roll a twenty-sided die, to see if i'd go into a frenzy during Krolvin attacks.
I'm the sort of person, who loves history(The only thing i ever got straight A's on in high school). Warts and all. In life, there's a lot of things that we, as a nation have in our history that we shouldn't be proud of. We should learn from it. I thought we did learn from some of it. I was wrong. But i don't advocate rewriting it. I hate the fact that monuments are being torn down and defaced over this whole issue. It kills me.
I feel the same way about the way our history is in-game. Don't retcon it. don't erase it. let's move forward, if we're that serious about it.
I'd consider any retcon a slap to the face. Not just to me, but to anyone on staff, or off, any character past, present or future who busted their ass to tell a story, be it through room building, to the vast lore that was pretty much started from scratch, after Ice Crown got the heave-ho. to make everyone enjoy the game a little bit more. I mean, isn't that why most of us are here? to have a little bit of fun? I sure as hell am.
I've watched a lot of things change with this game. a lot of it, quite frankly...i was and am ot a fan of.
I will be watching the coming weeks very carefully, and then, we'll see how she goes. I'll be cautiously optimistic.
Very Respectfully
Andrew,
The man behind Hapenlok
So, first things first. I've been an off and on part of this community since the early to mid 90s. I played a bit on GEnie, played a lot on AOL, and i made the transition along with the rest of Simu to the web. I left for the better part of 6 years, and i came back and started playing Hapenlok, instead of my warrior, who was actually the main character on my account. I've pretty much been playing Hapenlok Exclusively for the past seven years. If you had told 13 year old me, that i'd still be playing this game on the sunny side of forty? i probably would have laughed at you.
I've had a lot of trials and tribulations over my life. Things didn't go exactly the way i wanted. I was stuck for a long time working in a place i grew to hate, and there were times i couldn't even stand to look at myself in the mirror. I turned to this game as my escape. as an old school first edition D&D Player, I actually enjoyed playing a wizard. I outgrew the Rest, where i had left my wizard when i took a 6 year break from the game until i got sick in 2013, and was looking to fill the hours. so i came back. Just in time for Kenstrom's Cross into Shadows. Since then, i took control of my life, and took a position as a Communications Specialist for my hometown police department.
So, a while into the storyline, Kenstrom solicited our character biographies for future use against us. :P I actually found myself enjoying putting pen to paper again. I'm not going to bore you with all the details suffice it to say, i took from this game's canon two major events for my backstory(Actually three, but only two are germaine to this topic). The Krolvin attacks on River's Rest, and Chaston's Edict. I'm also going to be honest, Hatred of Krolvin is kind of what made my bones in this game. Racist (off-screen) humans also were a major part of how i portrayed my character. Fun Fact: i used to roll a twenty-sided die, to see if i'd go into a frenzy during Krolvin attacks.
I'm the sort of person, who loves history(The only thing i ever got straight A's on in high school). Warts and all. In life, there's a lot of things that we, as a nation have in our history that we shouldn't be proud of. We should learn from it. I thought we did learn from some of it. I was wrong. But i don't advocate rewriting it. I hate the fact that monuments are being torn down and defaced over this whole issue. It kills me.
I feel the same way about the way our history is in-game. Don't retcon it. don't erase it. let's move forward, if we're that serious about it.
I'd consider any retcon a slap to the face. Not just to me, but to anyone on staff, or off, any character past, present or future who busted their ass to tell a story, be it through room building, to the vast lore that was pretty much started from scratch, after Ice Crown got the heave-ho. to make everyone enjoy the game a little bit more. I mean, isn't that why most of us are here? to have a little bit of fun? I sure as hell am.
I've watched a lot of things change with this game. a lot of it, quite frankly...i was and am ot a fan of.
I will be watching the coming weeks very carefully, and then, we'll see how she goes. I'll be cautiously optimistic.
Very Respectfully
Andrew,
The man behind Hapenlok
<The Dhe'nar and the Tehir, for example, long predated and thrived without any official lore or support.- GS4-AUCHAND
Hell yeah we did! And the Tehir are still here (all 9 of us). I thrive when I play my Tehir. He is probably the closest any of my characters come to actually portraying my own personality. Deeply rooted in honesty and honour and loyal to a fault. A bit introverted, very few friends, but the ones he has he holds close. He's very, very unforgiving and horribly vengeful, and he thinks vengeance is a dish best served at every meal. Oh yeah, and one hell of a shot, let's not forget that part. And, most importantly, he lives by my own personal creed. 90% of the time violence is NOT the answer, learn to love the 10%.
Now, since we're on this subject, you do understand that some Tehir are slavers and others are the victims of slavery, right? I am not trying to stir the pot here at all, just making a general observation and trying to understand what is going to happen in this situation. I think this might be a good example for staff to attempt to give us all an idea of where this might be going.
Also, can we please get off the phrase "person of colour?" EVERYONE is a person of colour, I don't care what colour that may be, black, white, purple, whatever. That is what has to stop in this world. When you call yourself a person of colour, or call yourself white, black, brown, plaid, you are setting yourself apart and creating a barrier between you and everyone else who may not be that colour.
How about we invent a new colour?
We can call it HUMAN.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
http://radeekandoran.blogspot.ca/
http://thetehirchronicles.blogspot.ca/
Hell yeah we did! And the Tehir are still here (all 9 of us). I thrive when I play my Tehir. He is probably the closest any of my characters come to actually portraying my own personality. Deeply rooted in honesty and honour and loyal to a fault. A bit introverted, very few friends, but the ones he has he holds close. He's very, very unforgiving and horribly vengeful, and he thinks vengeance is a dish best served at every meal. Oh yeah, and one hell of a shot, let's not forget that part. And, most importantly, he lives by my own personal creed. 90% of the time violence is NOT the answer, learn to love the 10%.
Now, since we're on this subject, you do understand that some Tehir are slavers and others are the victims of slavery, right? I am not trying to stir the pot here at all, just making a general observation and trying to understand what is going to happen in this situation. I think this might be a good example for staff to attempt to give us all an idea of where this might be going.
Also, can we please get off the phrase "person of colour?" EVERYONE is a person of colour, I don't care what colour that may be, black, white, purple, whatever. That is what has to stop in this world. When you call yourself a person of colour, or call yourself white, black, brown, plaid, you are setting yourself apart and creating a barrier between you and everyone else who may not be that colour.
How about we invent a new colour?
We can call it HUMAN.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
http://radeekandoran.blogspot.ca/
http://thetehirchronicles.blogspot.ca/
>Also, can we please get off the phrase "person of colour?" EVERYONE is a person of colour, I don't care what colour that may be, black, white, purple, whatever. That is what has to stop in this world. When you call yourself a person of colour, or call yourself white, black, brown, plaid, you are setting yourself apart and creating a barrier between you and everyone else who may not be that colour.
There's nothing wrong with a culture celebrating being different, or identifying as such. People are different. Cultures are different. We're all pretty much a mix of something. That fact is something we celebrate and enjoy both in the real world and in fiction, and that's fine; homogeneity and uniformity is boring. Pretending people aren't different doesn't really solve anything, and I would rather see diversity and celebrate the differences than pretend that the differences don't exist, personally.
You can and should enjoy playing a Tehir, and all which that entails.
>Now, since we're on this subject, you do understand that some Tehir are slavers and others are the victims of slavery, right? I am not trying to stir the pot here at all, just making a general observation and trying to understand what is going to happen in this situation. I think this might be a good example for staff to attempt to give us all an idea of where this might be going.
>As Wyrom has made explicit, we're not trying to make race invisible in Elanthia. Nor are we trying to eliminate conflict or sanitize the game. Anyone who's seen my writing or stories knows that I don't flinch at uncomfortable subject matter or conflict. I am blunt and I can be pretty crude. I'm still for erring on the side of kindness and consideration here. ~AUCHAND
>Question: Has any NIR said they were removing slavery from the game's history entirely?
>No. ~KVETA
Good question, hope that helps. I very much doubt it will be removed or "cleansed", if that is a concern; I can't speak for any of the GMs, but it seems like a broad effort is being made for feedback to see what may be worth looking at and improving.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
There's nothing wrong with a culture celebrating being different, or identifying as such. People are different. Cultures are different. We're all pretty much a mix of something. That fact is something we celebrate and enjoy both in the real world and in fiction, and that's fine; homogeneity and uniformity is boring. Pretending people aren't different doesn't really solve anything, and I would rather see diversity and celebrate the differences than pretend that the differences don't exist, personally.
You can and should enjoy playing a Tehir, and all which that entails.
>Now, since we're on this subject, you do understand that some Tehir are slavers and others are the victims of slavery, right? I am not trying to stir the pot here at all, just making a general observation and trying to understand what is going to happen in this situation. I think this might be a good example for staff to attempt to give us all an idea of where this might be going.
>As Wyrom has made explicit, we're not trying to make race invisible in Elanthia. Nor are we trying to eliminate conflict or sanitize the game. Anyone who's seen my writing or stories knows that I don't flinch at uncomfortable subject matter or conflict. I am blunt and I can be pretty crude. I'm still for erring on the side of kindness and consideration here. ~AUCHAND
>Question: Has any NIR said they were removing slavery from the game's history entirely?
>No. ~KVETA
Good question, hope that helps. I very much doubt it will be removed or "cleansed", if that is a concern; I can't speak for any of the GMs, but it seems like a broad effort is being made for feedback to see what may be worth looking at and improving.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
>1. How many Black voices have you included in the re-examining of the current systems/lore?
>2. Going forward, how do you plan to include Black voices in the creation of new lore and systems?
>3. Have you considered paying an outside expert to help you navigate this process?
>>I think it's easy for non-Black people to tell other non-Black people what Black people want, but without including more Black voices, these changes are entirely performative. Maybe these questions were already answered somewhere in this thread, but I didn't see it after page 4 and it's a bit hard to absorb some of the less sympathetic content in this thread.
This is a point of concern definitely worth echoing, just wanted to amplify that and continue to encourage people to voice their input. I do sincerely hope (and trust) that a large number of people are offering or being solicited for said input -- privately, if they prefer -- so that this is a collective effort.
I have faith that is the case.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
>2. Going forward, how do you plan to include Black voices in the creation of new lore and systems?
>3. Have you considered paying an outside expert to help you navigate this process?
>>I think it's easy for non-Black people to tell other non-Black people what Black people want, but without including more Black voices, these changes are entirely performative. Maybe these questions were already answered somewhere in this thread, but I didn't see it after page 4 and it's a bit hard to absorb some of the less sympathetic content in this thread.
This is a point of concern definitely worth echoing, just wanted to amplify that and continue to encourage people to voice their input. I do sincerely hope (and trust) that a large number of people are offering or being solicited for said input -- privately, if they prefer -- so that this is a collective effort.
I have faith that is the case.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
>>>I have literally never taken anything I have read about the history or lore of the game to mean bigotry and racism were a GOOD thing. Can you point to any examples of this?
You ever been to Ta'Vaalor?
I actually visited play.net tonight to downgrade my last remaining active account from premium to basic. I just have barely been playing this year due to RL and a handful of events last year leaving extremely sour tastes in my mouth related to community issues and the staunch, "We won't change because we're afraid to rock the boat" stance this elder game likes to cling to. Before I reached the account page I saw this headline and thought, "Racial tension? Oh, are we finally going to do that Landing/Vaalor storyline?"
But color me surprised.
Thank you, Wyrom and the GM team. The premium gets to stay on virtue.
https://gswiki.play.net/Avawren
You ever been to Ta'Vaalor?
I actually visited play.net tonight to downgrade my last remaining active account from premium to basic. I just have barely been playing this year due to RL and a handful of events last year leaving extremely sour tastes in my mouth related to community issues and the staunch, "We won't change because we're afraid to rock the boat" stance this elder game likes to cling to. Before I reached the account page I saw this headline and thought, "Racial tension? Oh, are we finally going to do that Landing/Vaalor storyline?"
But color me surprised.
Thank you, Wyrom and the GM team. The premium gets to stay on virtue.
https://gswiki.play.net/Avawren
Has any consideration been put towards allowing permanant race or gender changes incase someone has had a bad experience as a certain race/gender? Most other modern games allow you to do this and with Gemstone IV's lengthy leveling process peoples thoughts/identity may have changed over the past 20 years and they are still locked into a race or gender they may no longer identify with.
| Account: CLOS/Character: Ondreian |
| Unfortunately, I have some reservations about these changes: |
| 1. How many Black voices have you included in the re-examining of the current systems/lore? |
| 2. Going forward, how do you plan to include Black voices in the creation of new lore and systems? |
| 3. Have you considered paying an outside expert to help you navigate this process? |
| I think it's easy for non-Black people to tell other non-Black people what Black people want, but without including more Black voices, these changes are entirely performative. Maybe these questions were already answered somewhere in this thread, but I didn't see it after page 4 and it's a bit hard to absorb some of the less sympathetic content in this thread. |
Hi Ondreian. I don't have actual answers to these questions that you posted, but I did want to copy over some related Discord information for people who may not have seen it that touches on this topic.
| Kveta 06/28/2020 |
| Nehor, if it makes you feel better, we had at least five people who have suffered real life injustices and are actual victims of racial discrimination discuss our ideas in depth. |
| Two of whom are actually diversity researchers or consultants. |
| With the aid of an actual sociologist. |
--Jen
>>I think it's easy for non-Black people to tell other non-Black people what Black people want, but without including more Black voices, these changes are entirely performative.
I agree. To make this a superlative example of what I feel we should be about, this needs to be expanded, not just emphasized. I think every BIPOC and every PRIDE segment should be represented, involved in all reviews and given voice directly. Inclusiveness depends on ensuring we are inclusive. Anything less than full inclusiveness should be deemed a failure on our part.
Doug
I agree. To make this a superlative example of what I feel we should be about, this needs to be expanded, not just emphasized. I think every BIPOC and every PRIDE segment should be represented, involved in all reviews and given voice directly. Inclusiveness depends on ensuring we are inclusive. Anything less than full inclusiveness should be deemed a failure on our part.
Doug
<I think every BIPOC and every PRIDE segment should be represented>
Might want to type that as "P.R.I.D.E." in the future... esp with Pride Month wrapping up as this discussion takes place. I almost derailed the convo on accident until I googled to make sure that wasn't an acronym I wasn't aware of... glad I did now.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Might want to type that as "P.R.I.D.E." in the future... esp with Pride Month wrapping up as this discussion takes place. I almost derailed the convo on accident until I googled to make sure that wasn't an acronym I wasn't aware of... glad I did now.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>>I think it's easy for non-Black people to tell other non-Black people what Black people want, but without including more Black voices, these changes are entirely performative.
I have yet to see anyone acknowledge Allenm20's input on these changes from his perspective as an african-american. The third line in his post states " I 100% believe that the impetus behind this is selfish desires and greed disguised as altruism. "
>That is an interesting comment to make about paying customers. You may not agree with people, you can even think that certain people are "disgraceful," but as a representative of a company you sure as heck shouldn't be allowed to insult people.
It's not insulting to call people out for being over the line. Unless your intent was such or you believe yourself to be one of those people, you have no reason to be insulted; nothing I've seen leads me to believe you are.
>The fact certain people feel the need to pull their views into a fantasy game so they can have a "feel good" moment without actually doing anything to counter systemic racism in the real world is disgraceful.
Disagree. Common decency is not a political position.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
It's not insulting to call people out for being over the line. Unless your intent was such or you believe yourself to be one of those people, you have no reason to be insulted; nothing I've seen leads me to believe you are.
>The fact certain people feel the need to pull their views into a fantasy game so they can have a "feel good" moment without actually doing anything to counter systemic racism in the real world is disgraceful.
Disagree. Common decency is not a political position.
-- Wheels & Skulls Department
You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”
[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]
<<Disagree. Common decency is not a political position.
It's a fantasy game. No one is saying racism is good. However, using authoritative power to alter and skew history (the lore) to meet a narrative is fascism.
Common decency also includes the simple gesture of not labeling people when they simply oppose someone's opinion.
