Because there is a real cost. It's zero dollars but it's effort and energy and also impetus. Toward something I think will have zero actual positive impact in game. Other than letting everyone pay themselves on the back about how great of a job they have done while people continue to suffer real harm and no action that could actually help is taken cause we are too busy ensuring pretend characters can make the same money selling stuff for silver at a pawnshop.

Maybe sharing an experience will explain. Years ago I was going through a very difficult patch and I struggled with some real dark thoughts as well as depression. I had no job at the time and no income source. I needed help. But all anyone ever wanted to do was give me advice on how I should cheer up or get a hobby or stop being so glum. These people were 100 percent well intentioned. They wanted me to be better. They did more. But they didn't get me to a therapist to actually get some help.

Thankfully I eventually did receive what I needed but there was a lot of wasted time by people who wanted to help but actively impeded me being helped because they were not doing what needed done.

This strikes me as that. Time is being wasted not actually helping while the real problem proceeds apace and we all are busy running around with fire hydrants as the flood waters rise.

I too want to help though. I think discrimination and inequality are real issues that are systemic and hurtful. So instead of just being critical I am offering an idea that can do what I feel would be real good. Y'all can get your extra silver at the pawnshop and people who need it can hopefully be aided. No downside everyone wins!

---

AuchandToday at 11:28 PM
I would like to reiterate: Whick is my hero.

What is love? BB don't hurt me05/13/2020
Whick's so helpful! He's our villain even in our backchannel chatter as staff. :smile:

<I don't think that the people uncomfortable with changing the game are inherently racist.

<I hope they'll respect the prevailing sentiment that changing fantasy documents in the interest of kindness and respect toward real people is not a bad thing, though.

I hope you'll respect the real world sentiment that this is utterly ridiculous because all of the people enduring and suffering in the real world would look at you like you've lost your mind if you tell them you're "doing what you can" to update documents in a game that has zero impact on their lives and well being.

Some people are flat out dumb and their worldview is microscopic. I encounter it on a daily basis working in a grocery store and trying to explain to people how the world works in regards to supply chains and manufacturing because they dont understand why coca cola isn't producing caffeine free coke at the moment or why we have toilet paper but no paper towels (news flash, I wouldn't not want to have tp but neither is essential for life) and when there's a transportation shortage food and water take priority.

You say prevailing sentiment and I see it being a lot of back and forth. Have a poll before you tell me you represent the majority please.

I totally get that there may be a very small subset of players that actually believe in prejudice and play the game due to being able to act out that fantasy without repercussion. I feel that media and art is a way to connect with these people on a daily basis and maybe they see that a lot of people of different ethnicities and backgrounds and sexual orientations play this game together and maybe were not so different because at the end of the day most of us are having fun playing a game and having a shared experience.

If you want to change how NPCs behave due to evolving storylines that occurred in game go for it. But leave history and lore alone. Regardless of how bad it currently looks or what you think the creators bias was it's there. It should remain unchanged. You can create new documents that speak of change in the world but the original documents should remain.

As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!"

I may come off as abrasive but we ultimately want the same thing here. Just so we are clear. We just have very different approaches and I think n it's good to sound out alternatives. Let people see different solutions and we can find the ones that work.

---

AuchandToday at 11:28 PM
I would like to reiterate: Whick is my hero.

What is love? BB don't hurt me05/13/2020
Whick's so helpful! He's our villain even in our backchannel chatter as staff. :smile:

I agree with all of the RP driven ones/raffles but trading bonuses are a baked in stat people chose at character creation and it DID effect my character choice, not being able to swing a lance in 5 seconds without expensive enhancives makes my character feel inferior and better trading bonuses was one of the benefits to make up for it. If anything mechanical was altered I would want at least a one time option to change race to offset deceasing my race choices benefits over other races (even if it was a simucoin item). Also some races having -logic and being portrayed as stupid and is borderline offensive in the case of half-krolvin and also effects leveling speed and how much playtime you have to invest is an issue I'd like to see addressed while everyone is on the subject and IMO is much more profound than certain shop keepers in towns where you choose to live paying you less.

I've been remaining mostly quiet and just reading all of this, but I do have some concerns of my own. The most pointed one at this moment being a question of to what end? Those who support these changes, I just want to know what you hope to gain from all these changes? I see a lot of people listing mechanical changes that will benefit them in game, which I guess is fair enough (though I disagree with doing these changes for in game mechanical benefits), but I see very little being said about how the lore and history changes will be a positive adjustment to our lives. Many of you who are hopeful for the change keep saying it'll make the game more welcoming to new players. But I've never, ever heard of a single player who was turned away from the game due to the lore, history or the RP of a player. I've heard of people being turned off of the game due to other players actions, but that is not what is being proposed to be changed here.

For me, it feels like there is a small group of people who are choosing Gemstone to be their soap box. Preaching to each other about how they are doing the good fight to fix the wrongs of the world. Unfortunately these wrongs don't seem to apply in the world you're attempting to apply them too. Racism in the real world, will not be corrected, effected or even take note of the changes we make in the world of Elanthia. I really feel that everyone for these changes should take a few moments, and think about if this is really the change you really desire in your life. Will half-elves and half-krolvin having a different lore background then is current actually improve your life? Will it really improve the lives of the people of color who don't play gemstone at all? I've seen several persons who have explained that they fall into these real world minority groups and they don't see a positive outcome to their lives from these proposed lore and history changes. I get why these two history/lore subjects can be startling to some. But it's completely the players choice on how to react to them. They can chose not to play those races. They can chose how to interact with these races in game. The current lore is not forcing anyone to do anything. It's simply providing a background or a starting point for the player to build their own story.

The half-krolvin lore in specific is cold, dark and shocking. I get that. But it's not unheard of. I was originally on the side of "oof, this needs changed." yesterday. But last night, I was speaking to a friend who does not even play our game about the issues going on, and had to explain the half-krolvin lore to him, as he has no idea what they are. I was cringing expecting the worst, but his response took me off guard:

"Oh, so in basic terms they are half-monkey half-men vikings, right? They attack and pillage villages just like vikings did."

I'd never connected that until he said it. He followed it up with :

"I mean, it's dark but it's not crazy. The vikings did it, and they were lightweights compared to other historical peoples - lets not get started on Genghis Khan!"

Those two statements completely nullified my desire to see half-krolvin lore changed. Not because our real life history justifies it, but because hiding from these things in our entertainment nullifies the ability to see this history, interact with it, and grow from it as a person.

I personally don't feel like we are doing a service to anyone, of any creed or background, by adjusting or changing the lore or history that has been built for this game. I don't feel like we should be changing mechanics of the game based on a viewpoint of the mechanics being "racist". I don't agree that changing the history of our game will actually improve any lives outside of Elanthia.

Since this information has not made it to the forums, I want to copy/paste it for people here to see.

Wyrom Yesterday at 9:32 PM

Just some perspective, since the announcement has been perceived differently by many.

Senior staff started discussing this several weeks ago. We later added more people to the discussion to talk about the scope. The forums erupting today was a reason for me to announce today, as I was planning to announce on Thursday (after our staff meeting).

We're not looking to retcon everything. We have a number of changes, both large and small, we want to work toward updating. Our game will still have conflict. Players will still be able to roleplay, we're not changing that. But what we're doing is on the staff side, we're writing things to not have the roots in those areas. Did War of the Nations still happen? Yes. Are we going to write villains like Lerep Hochstib going forward? Probably not.

We have a list of planned updates, and we'll be discussing them when they are a bit further along.

Wyrom Yesterday at 9:41 PM

At this point, nothing is being eliminated. As Kveta mentioned, Half Krolvin do have a lot of work, and likely the most changes. But we aren't stopping anything from happening. We're just pivoting in certain areas. Your backstories and your histories will not be changed. We just want to move in a direction that we feel better with, as creators of adventures.

Wyrom Yesterday at 9:43 PM

Right now, we are reviewing racial concerns.

Wyrom Yesterday at 9:58 PM

Again, we're not removing anything. We're rewriting some things, updating others. Prejudices will continue to exist. Fantasy tropes will continue to exist. There will still be struggles between elves and dwarves. We're just altering how we've typecast the situation. Some changes will be big, but many will be small.

Wyrom Yesterday at 10:10 PM

I will post items that will be worked on once they are more finalized and have staffing.

Wyrom Yesterday at 10:10 PM

HK need the most work, and Auchand jumped on it.

Wyrom Yesterday at 10:12 PM

The updates aren't going to be as sweeping to everyday gameplay that have been rehashed on here, and they won't impact how you play, outside being more inclusive in some areas.

Wyrom Yesterday at 10:18 PM

I will say, we've seen complaints over the years about not knowing what's in development or what's being worked on. I've worked very hard to making changes so we do discuss them early and it's not been a good experience. It's taken a lot of time to move in this direction. I really don't want to backpedal on it, because we want to include everyone. We're a smaller game with a tighter-knit community. We want your input. We understand not everyone has to conduct themselves in a professional manner. But we do wish it could be more civil at times.

Wyrom Yesterday at 10:21 PM

I meant backpedal with discussing things. We don't plan to backpedal with development.

Talinvor Yesterday at 10:21 PM

"dirt elf" is a racist comment in GS. It has no application in RL

Using the N word on a dark elf, is OOC racism

Wyrom Yesterday at 10:22 PM

Calling an elf that will still be acceptable by other players. Staff won't write it into an NPC script though, @Talinvor. That's the sort of changes we're talking about.

Wyrom Yesterday at 11:08 PM

We aren't changing a lot in terms of mechanics. We are going to look at racial biases in the shops. We may change a few names around. Please don't worry about mechanics. Nothing is likely to change with the CMGR, stats, etc.

Wyrom Yesterday at 11:09 PM

Citizenship may get looked at.

To be more inclusive.

Wyrom Yesterday at 11:09 PM

There will still be fantasy tropes. So dwarves and elves likely won't get along still. But you'll still be able to play the game.

Wyrom Yesterday at 11:11 PM

We really aren't trying to change how you play. We're changing how we deliver lore. The way you want to interpret the lore will still be how you want to do it.

Astrenoir Yesterday at 11:12 PM

@Wyrom so in other words, players unattracted to the lores will prolly don't even notice changes at all, I summarize it well?

Wyrom Yesterday at 11:14 PM

@Astrenoir outside racial biases and likely some other hiccups (Vaalor papers came up, issues with citizenships, and a few others), correct. Documentation and how we deliver that documentation will be a bit wider scope.

--Jen

>>Every game has toxic extremes of the community, but in a small player base like GS these toxic extremes can have an outsized voice.

I think THIS is a bingo. The sad point is that the re-skinned movement won't see their impact in this way.

Let me be unutterably clear - The current campaign rests on an individual feeling comfortable displaying what they wish without being encumbered by other perceptions, mores or standards. Knock yourself out. But remember that you can cause discomfort in others displaying what you wish. If you are insistent on doing so without consideration, you toss the very ideals you are trying to support. If you are insistent on not only doing so without consideration but you wish to force others to do so without consideration - well, see the quote.


Doug

Wyrom, so I hope you are now actively re-coding Duskruin considering it contains slavery, racism and animal cruelty? Basically the premise of this event is people go and murder 25 things to a cheering crowd to earn "blood" script. It's a mockery of the slavery and brutality of gladiator games and Roman history.

I hope you are going to be revamping Guardians of Sunfist which is built upon the hatred of other races and rewards characters for their brutal murders. Step 10 mimics the brutality seen in Duskruin with rewarding the player character for the murder of a captured Grimswarm in an arena.

I hope you are re-coding the racial bias given toward half-krolvin with the logic penalty given to them. Essentially making them "dumber" than the other races players can choose from. Why should there be global penalties assigned to each race?

I hope you are removing every reference of Dhe'nar considering the lore is built upon slavery?

I hope you are removing all hunting grounds that give reference to sentient beings, including those that are of another race but unplayable by any characters? Examples include the Shan and Kobolds. Why is rewarding players for with experience and treasure for the murdering of these races allowed?

I hope you are doing a thorough review of all references to grotesque items that refer to other races that players can wear and/or interact with. I've seen characters walking around with halfling scalps or other body parts for example.

I hope you are re-coding the whole trading system to completely remove any ounce of racial bias from any of the towns. The biggest example are dark elves but is also easily applied to halflings and giantmen(women) in the Elven Nations.

I hope you are coding new ways for characters to learn other racial languages rather than having special items to speak or hear another language.

I hope you are, while I am on it, completely and utterly revamping all of Elven Nations considering this whole major area of the game is completely 100% racist in like every single way.

At what point do you stop? You're talking about a massive re-write here. Might as well make this GSV.

I can't even express enough how this post is amazing. So well worded, so progressive. Thank you. I'm a white american, I stand with black lives matter, protests. I'm completely against racism, and have even pushed it in game. Thank you for taking a positive stand against a real problem, even through a game. Thank you, thank you, thank you.



All lives matter. It's not just about one race. Just like in Elanthia. All characters and races matter with the lore. The difference here is Fiction vs Nonfiction. While I applaud the duskruin idea, the problem I have is that once again you are mixing Fantasy and Real Life. What happens in fantasy stays in fantasy (or is supposed to) and thus should have ZERO impact from what is going on in the Real World. This whole thing going on here is basically giving the green light for whatever issue is going on with the real world to have impacts on what goes on in Elanthia. Elanthia should stay Elanthia. There is nothing to fix. You have free will to choose what race you play. You know their background if you read it. To encourage people to not read the background and cry about something they don't like because they still want to be a race that was enslaved in the history of their race isn't fair nor right to the other people that actually do their homework - know what each race's background is and roll with it. They chose to be a Dark Elf, knowing they aren't very welcomed in places (as an example) and accepted it. Nowhere in the game does it ask if you are a Real Minority and thus treats you differently. No, it goes by the choice you make when you create the character. You chose to be the Dark Elf. You accepted that your character is going to be treated differently and that includes by the NPCs.

__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night

You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!

* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!

>We are taking this opportunity to revisit some of the lore and mechanics that only exist because of systemic racism.

Kind of insulting to suggest your players and past/current GMs are racists who inserted some of their prejudices into the game, but you guys do you.

<<There's a tremendous movement going on in this country that has served as a stark reminder of systemic racism in the US. We are taking this opportunity to revisit some of the lore and mechanics that only exist because of systemic racism. In the process of evaluating some of these issues, we've run across some other lore that invited change, like the half-krolvin origins being simultaneously grotesque and beneath our usual qualitative standards as a staff.>>

Cool, you're bringing real life political correctness and your views into a fantasy world. How about you address the previous idea of profit sharing DR revenue to a charity that helps fight racism IRL?

Since when do RL events impact GS? Why not make PCs wear masks since a majority of the world is being required to?


The GMs can feel free to butcher whatever lore they want in a vague attempt at combating RL racism. However, at the end of the day, after you've all patted each other on the back, real world racism will be completely unaffected and your energy wasted.

>I don't want to speak for everyone, so I will say that my interest in speaking up and agitating for some changes isn't about reductive cases like a person of color being offended about Faendryl in particular. I agree that's an edge case. It's more about our body of lore and mechanics as a whole and the message we are sending about the inclusivity of our game as a whole.

People choose to be offended.
Those people then choose to scream that they are offended.
Those people then demand something is changed because the choose to be offended.

It's a game. Don't like it, don't play it.
If a book offends you, don't read it.
If a business offends you, don't go to it.

<<>Make progressive steps to remove racism in GS via RP instead of the cancel culture's demand for instant results. Use is as projected road ahead to give players hope that the real world can follow suit.

That is the plan.

~Kveta>>

Then why are there talks about retconning half-krol history?

>Then why are there talks about retconning half-krol history?

Half-Krol, as most people here have acknowledged, have some troubling and problematic descriptions of their history. I think it's more likely that HK history will be expanded and fleshed out to be less one-dimensional, and maybe provide alternative histories. I think there's a strong preference, both by players and staff, to do the least amount of retconning possible, and instead provide options for origins. We'll see how this shakes out. I'm sure we'll get your opinion as it actually happens.

>Wipe them from existence and they are gone. This may feel pleasant in the short term. In the long run?

If you're worried about any BIPOC forgetting that racism is a thing...don't.

~Kveta

>If you're worried about any BIPOC forgetting that racism is a thing...don't.

Quite the contrary, Kveta. It is those that commit the crimes that need to be reminded. You do realize I assume that there are quite sizeable numbers of people the world over who to this day attempt to deny that the Holocaust ever happened? The danger they present is real and must be constantly guarded against.

Avaia, player of

<<We'll see how this shakes out. I'm sure we'll get your opinion as it actually happens.>>

You will get my opinion because I refuse to silently let cancel culture destroy the lore of a game a cherish.

>So why not DECIDE to donate a portion of the next Duskruins Profits to a real world charitable organization that can help promote racial justice and equality?

Raising this idea. It's multiple levels above my paygrade, but you've been heard.

>I agree 100%. It is not the people that suffer, but the people that cause suffering either through ignorance or willful action that need to have it pointed out to them, constantly, that 'This is Bad. This is what it Looks Like. This is how it Feels.'

If the game mechanics/documents/official stance on the part of the GMs (not just players) in any way enforced the idea that it was bad, I would agree.

>You asked me to listen. Okay.

>I'm asking you to ACT.

I will match any donation to a racial justice organization that you make up to $1,000. Email me your receipt.

~Kveta

>Kind of insulting to suggest your players and past/current GMs are racists who inserted some of their prejudices into the game, but you guys do you.

That's a misrepresentation of what I said.

I was referring to how your views are shaped by societal impressions about race and how those views manifest themselves when you are not in any way being consciously racist.

For example: Black magic is bad. White magic is good. Fantasy struggles are framed as being between the light and the dark. This stuff has its origins in racial iconography going centuries back.

Auchand

<<Those people probably think the world is flat too. Honestly these changes are taking place because of outside influence and that's really all there is to it.>>

And, unless I'm mistaken, no political event has ever influenced events in GS because GS is a separate, fantasy world is not associated with real life.

<<Sorry, but GS does not exist in a bubble. It has always been informed by real life.>>

examples of when/how?