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A handful of situations have occurred recently that are causing us to alter the language used in POLICY 3. The most recent situation that has occurred is concerning Lich's lnet function and what is and isn't covered by POLICY 3. We also had an issue within the last 60 days where a player was threatened with violence over an unofficial Discord server's voice channel. And finally, we had another unofficial Discord server bullying a few players that were being accused of violating POLICY 18, when they were not.
While we want to keep our players from being involved in disruptive behavior that they do not consent to, we have to draw the line where we can uphold our policy. That line being in-game, our forums, our wiki, and our official Discord server. It will need to be the player's responsibility to participate in unofficial areas and deal with how it's moderated.
POLICY 3 will have an update to specifically name areas where POLICY cannot be enforced shortly.
Wyrom, PM
Really sorry about this situation. I evidenced how easy it is to spoof on LNet. I understand this is an important point of evidence and that LNet (as a whole, including all channels) would not be considered as evidence of anything other than text which has been presented.
As a community, I hope we are all thankful for the level of work that goes in to enforcing a good gaming experience, but that we recognize where these boundaries may not be applicable to go after specific individuals.
As a community, I hope we are all thankful for the level of work that goes in to enforcing a good gaming experience, but that we recognize where these boundaries may not be applicable to go after specific individuals.
These updates are now live. This update only references General Behavior. For ease of clarity, I'll include the differences below.
Wyrom, PM
| Previous General Behavior Clause | Current General Behavior Clause | |
| Because GemStone IV is a multi-player game, there can sometimes be a conflict between an individual player's idea of entertainment and that of the majority of the players as a whole. In such situations, the majority will be given the greatest weight. | Because GemStone IV is a multi-player game, there can sometimes be a conflict between an individual player's idea of entertainment and that of the majority of the players as a whole. In such situations, the majority will be given the greatest weight. | |
| GemStone IV is designed for the enjoyment of everyone, and as a general rule, any behavior which is specifically targeted to lessen that enjoyment for another player may be in violation of GemStone IV policy. While what is disruptive is an extremely long list, it includes things such as vulgarity, harassment, sexual misconduct, cyber-bullying, out of character threats, doxing, and actions specifically targeted to be disruptive. | GemStone IV is designed for the enjoyment of everyone, and as a general rule, any behavior which is specifically targeted to lessen that enjoyment for another player may be in violation of GemStone IV policy. While what is disruptive is an extremely long list, it includes things such as vulgarity, harassment, sexual misconduct, cyber-bullying, out of character threats, doxing, and actions specifically targeted to be disruptive. Threatening violence, using hate speech, and engaging in any sort of personal harassment can result in immediate account termination. | |
| This applies to all interactions within the in-game environment, the official GSIV Forums, GSWiki, and any areas of official communication. | This applies to all interactions within the in-game environment, Play.net Forums, GSWiki, and the official GemStone IV Discord server. | |
| Threatening violence, using hate speech, and engaging in any sort of personal harassment shall be grounds for immediate account termination, regardless of if it happening in or out of game. | Moved into the second paragraph. |
Wyrom, PM
> ...regardless of if it happening in or out of game.
Just be clear, as the quoted was removed as far as I can read. It read before as if you would enforcing this no matter the platform, and the removal now reads as if you will not. Just wanted to make sure 100% that accounts won't be getting closed because someone used a poor choice of words or some such somewhere else unrelated to the listed official areas (wiki, game, forums, discord). The whole recent Patreon thing has probably made me a bit touchy on the subject matter.
Thanks!
Just be clear, as the quoted was removed as far as I can read. It read before as if you would enforcing this no matter the platform, and the removal now reads as if you will not. Just wanted to make sure 100% that accounts won't be getting closed because someone used a poor choice of words or some such somewhere else unrelated to the listed official areas (wiki, game, forums, discord). The whole recent Patreon thing has probably made me a bit touchy on the subject matter.
Thanks!
> Threatening violence, using hate speech, and engaging in any sort of personal harassment shall be grounds for immediate account termination, regardless of if it happening in or out of game.
> Threatening violence, using hate speech, and engaging in any sort of personal harassment can result in immediate account termination.
So as I'm reading this: hate speech, violence, and harassment are fine, so long as they're not on official simu channels? And on official simu channels, they're fine in some situations?
This is an odd tack for a policy update to take.
> Threatening violence, using hate speech, and engaging in any sort of personal harassment can result in immediate account termination.
So as I'm reading this: hate speech, violence, and harassment are fine, so long as they're not on official simu channels? And on official simu channels, they're fine in some situations?
This is an odd tack for a policy update to take.
To clarify a bit, because I feel like that post was perhaps too vague and flippant:
I personally find a small but significant facet of the GS community to be negative enough that it occasionally affects my enjoyment of the game as a whole.
To have Simutronics actively update their policy to clarify that violent harassers who use hate speech are welcome in-game so long as they are smart enough to keep their nose clean on official channels worries me.
I do understand changing "shall" to "can" - there are circumstances a response short of complete account termination might be warranted (especially regarding the severity of threats of violence), and it is important for a policy document like this to reflect the reality of how situations are handled. The rest, I do not think is a good call.
I personally find a small but significant facet of the GS community to be negative enough that it occasionally affects my enjoyment of the game as a whole.
To have Simutronics actively update their policy to clarify that violent harassers who use hate speech are welcome in-game so long as they are smart enough to keep their nose clean on official channels worries me.
I do understand changing "shall" to "can" - there are circumstances a response short of complete account termination might be warranted (especially regarding the severity of threats of violence), and it is important for a policy document like this to reflect the reality of how situations are handled. The rest, I do not think is a good call.
>There are only a few channels that are not official and none of them are required to play the game. Why not remove the toxicity and simply remove them from your life. I have done zo and was better for it.
Cutting out those lines of communication completely is a bit extreme. If you find value in lnet channels but find that someone is harassing you, you can simply use the ;ignore feature to block any sight of them. You can also mute/block individuals on unofficial discord servers.
~Land Pirate Maylan~
Cutting out those lines of communication completely is a bit extreme. If you find value in lnet channels but find that someone is harassing you, you can simply use the ;ignore feature to block any sight of them. You can also mute/block individuals on unofficial discord servers.
~Land Pirate Maylan~
We cannot policy channels outside of the game where we cannot prove someone's identity or if the incident really occurred. While I don't want players to be exposed to the issues you quoted, it's not something we can reasonably prevent. While lnet was mentioned specifically in this thread, it's also going on in private Discord servers over the voice channels.
Wyrom, PM
Wyrom, PM
>We cannot policy channels outside of the game where we cannot prove someone's identity or if the incident really occurred. While I don't want players to be exposed to the issues you quoted, it's not something we can reasonably prevent. While lnet was mentioned specifically in this thread, it's also going on in private Discord servers over the voice channels>
Slightly triggered here by this quote, but it's ancient history, Wyrom, and really, who wants to rehash stuff that happened 15 years ago, under different management anyway?(Other than myself, who has a hard time letting go of things, sometimes. it's one of my less lovable personality traits. i'm Sicllian/Irish, 'Nuff said)
But it does lead me to a question, which i'm sure you've answered before, but humor me, please.
What's the current policy for Staff as it pertains to the usage of third party applications such as Lich/LNet and PSInet(RIP)? whether it be on their own time or on duty?
More questions possibly to follow after the answer.
~Andrew
Hapenlok's Inquisitive player
> We cannot policy channels outside of the game where we cannot prove someone's identity or if the incident really occurred. While I don't want players to be exposed to the issues you quoted, it's not something we can reasonably prevent. While lnet was mentioned specifically in this thread, it's also going on in private Discord servers over the voice channels.
These changes seem to be predicated on specific incidents, which I am neither aware of nor asking for details on. My response is predicated on specific incidents as well: recently, the Games Done Quick team banned some players from their events. These players were (among other things) promoting their "solution" to the "Jewish Question" on an unaffiliated Discord server.
The ignored the initial reports of it, because it was unverifiable, came from another player with their own long history of issues, and that player was likely reporting the information for selfish reasons. That didn't make it any less true.
Followup Statement: https://twitter.com/GamesDoneQuick/status/1067649270730317825
Response from one banned player: https://twitter.com/RWhiteGoose/status/1067707564689776642
Response from another banned player: https://twitter.com/graviton29/status/1067654318898204672
So when I read Policy 3 now, it reads, to me, "If neo-nazis are recruiting Gemstone players on lnet, the PC, or private discords, and we are aware of it, we still will not take action as long as they keep it out of game."
These changes seem to be predicated on specific incidents, which I am neither aware of nor asking for details on. My response is predicated on specific incidents as well: recently, the Games Done Quick team banned some players from their events. These players were (among other things) promoting their "solution" to the "Jewish Question" on an unaffiliated Discord server.
The ignored the initial reports of it, because it was unverifiable, came from another player with their own long history of issues, and that player was likely reporting the information for selfish reasons. That didn't make it any less true.
Followup Statement: https://twitter.com/GamesDoneQuick/status/1067649270730317825
Response from one banned player: https://twitter.com/RWhiteGoose/status/1067707564689776642
Response from another banned player: https://twitter.com/graviton29/status/1067654318898204672
So when I read Policy 3 now, it reads, to me, "If neo-nazis are recruiting Gemstone players on lnet, the PC, or private discords, and we are aware of it, we still will not take action as long as they keep it out of game."
>So when I read Policy 3 now, it reads, to me, "If neo-nazis are recruiting Gemstone players on lnet, the PC, or private discords, and we are aware of it, we still will not take action as long as they keep it out of game."
Lich - sure, I make use of it. I ignore most of lnet or just don't have it going and focus on the merchant and help channels. I don't do discord and I don't bother with PC much, I just check the Wanted and For Sale folders.
You can take my opinion as you want, but we are all grownups (some more than others) here. If you can't find a way to avoid/ignore/block those that irritate you on third party systems, maybe it's not just the other people that are the cause of your misery.
Perhaps I'm not like most people, but I tend to do myself a big favor...Avoid social media and assume everyone that posts their junk thoughts on social media, as ignorant. You'll eventually feel better for not having this junk in your life.
Lich - sure, I make use of it. I ignore most of lnet or just don't have it going and focus on the merchant and help channels. I don't do discord and I don't bother with PC much, I just check the Wanted and For Sale folders.
You can take my opinion as you want, but we are all grownups (some more than others) here. If you can't find a way to avoid/ignore/block those that irritate you on third party systems, maybe it's not just the other people that are the cause of your misery.
Perhaps I'm not like most people, but I tend to do myself a big favor...Avoid social media and assume everyone that posts their junk thoughts on social media, as ignorant. You'll eventually feel better for not having this junk in your life.
<So when I read Policy 3 now, it reads, to me, "If neo-nazis are recruiting Gemstone players on lnet, the PC, or private discords, and we are aware of it, we still will not take action as long as they keep it out of game.">
Since Godwin's Law has come to this thread, I'm going to just post this and hit "mark as read" when I see the thread title on this topic.
No sane person wants hate groups and such using Gemstone for their activities or operating in a way that makes it look like Simu is complicit with their activities. That said, a line HAS to be drawn somewhere.
There's little to nothing stopping anyone from copying any of our identities here and using them to make us look like we're the culprits on nonofficial Discord servers or PC. Literally anyone could go to either posing as you and completely trash your reputation, and there's no way for anyone to know if it's you or not other then taking your word for it. With this policy, you're at least protected from being banned from GS if that happens (and there have been occasions where people posed as others on PC to trash their rep).
For Lich, well that's a genie that should never have been allowed out of it's bottle. That said, NIR has always stated that 3rd party software is use at your own risk and Lich is def that. In this very thread they stated that GMs aren't allowed to use it on computers they use for official Simu business and on the WEB site they as much as say not to bother sending logs of disputes because of how easily they can be altered (they even point out an incident where 3-4 people send logs of the same dispute and none of them matched). Since their ability to monitor it is limited at best and logs are unreliable, how exactly are they supposed to verify any complaints about activity on it?
If you don't like what's going on in unofficial venues, don't make use of them. As a member of a group that has been and in many places still is systemically disenfranchised, I definitely don't want Simu deciding to ban people for what they say outside official channels... what if they decide my people are as ban-worthy as the neo-nazis?
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Since Godwin's Law has come to this thread, I'm going to just post this and hit "mark as read" when I see the thread title on this topic.
No sane person wants hate groups and such using Gemstone for their activities or operating in a way that makes it look like Simu is complicit with their activities. That said, a line HAS to be drawn somewhere.
There's little to nothing stopping anyone from copying any of our identities here and using them to make us look like we're the culprits on nonofficial Discord servers or PC. Literally anyone could go to either posing as you and completely trash your reputation, and there's no way for anyone to know if it's you or not other then taking your word for it. With this policy, you're at least protected from being banned from GS if that happens (and there have been occasions where people posed as others on PC to trash their rep).
For Lich, well that's a genie that should never have been allowed out of it's bottle. That said, NIR has always stated that 3rd party software is use at your own risk and Lich is def that. In this very thread they stated that GMs aren't allowed to use it on computers they use for official Simu business and on the WEB site they as much as say not to bother sending logs of disputes because of how easily they can be altered (they even point out an incident where 3-4 people send logs of the same dispute and none of them matched). Since their ability to monitor it is limited at best and logs are unreliable, how exactly are they supposed to verify any complaints about activity on it?
If you don't like what's going on in unofficial venues, don't make use of them. As a member of a group that has been and in many places still is systemically disenfranchised, I definitely don't want Simu deciding to ban people for what they say outside official channels... what if they decide my people are as ban-worthy as the neo-nazis?
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>Since their ability to monitor it is limited at best and logs are unreliable, how exactly are they supposed to verify any complaints about activity on it?
>Since Godwin's Law has come to this thread, I'm going to just post this and hit "mark as read" when I see the thread title on this topic.
Why are you asking me questions if you don't plan to read my response?
Anyway, for the rest of the thread, I'll at least say re: "Godwin's Law"
It's an issue that happened a month ago in another gaming community, and I bring it up to bring context to my reading of this policy. The players were literally discussing "Jewish Question". It's kinda hard to avoid mentioning the Nazis at that point.
>Since Godwin's Law has come to this thread, I'm going to just post this and hit "mark as read" when I see the thread title on this topic.
Why are you asking me questions if you don't plan to read my response?
Anyway, for the rest of the thread, I'll at least say re: "Godwin's Law"
It's an issue that happened a month ago in another gaming community, and I bring it up to bring context to my reading of this policy. The players were literally discussing "Jewish Question". It's kinda hard to avoid mentioning the Nazis at that point.
>>Is it time for Minority Report level protection of our gaming enjoyment?
That would literally require Savants or someone with access to Major Mental so...
_ _ _
Myasara says, "Raining rocks down on my city was not the best course of action."
- - -
Nishima put a group of five partially frozen corpses in the Nishima disk.
Several frozen limbs peek out of the disk in a macabre fashion.
That would literally require Savants or someone with access to Major Mental so...
_ _ _
Myasara says, "Raining rocks down on my city was not the best course of action."
- - -
Nishima put a group of five partially frozen corpses in the Nishima disk.
Several frozen limbs peek out of the disk in a macabre fashion.
>the player community can self-police
The community is one of the most awesome things that impressed me about GS. While there are aberrations, this community works hard to protect the game and its stability.
---
;tune towncrier
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Xanith: "It's flat out amazing"
Doug: "100.times ^"
TownCrier News Submission link: http://bit.ly/TownCrierNews
The community is one of the most awesome things that impressed me about GS. While there are aberrations, this community works hard to protect the game and its stability.
---
;tune towncrier
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Xanith: "It's flat out amazing"
Doug: "100.times ^"
TownCrier News Submission link: http://bit.ly/TownCrierNews
> Is it time for Minority Report level protection of our gaming enjoyment?
This kind of false dichotomy is dismissive and unhelpful.
The issue is that there are apparently issues with harassment, hate speech, and threatening violence on 3rd party services that are directly or indirectly involved with playing Gemstone.
One option is to follow up on the reports, investigate when you can, and act when you can. When you cannot, you accept that you did the best you can.
Another option is to write into policy that Simutronics will only take action if the harassment, hate speech, or threat of violence, happens on one of four prescribed places.
Simutronics made an active choice to change their policy on this issue. They did not have to!
Nothing in the old policy said they have to ban you because someone made a fake account in your name. Nothing in the old policy said they must take action on any report, regardless of how spurious. The old policy did not mandate any of the things some posters seem to be concerned about.
The new one greatly limits when Simutronics will act. That is their choice. I am making posts expressing my concerns with it; that is mine. The rest of you don't have to agree with me; I'm okay with that. I would rather have said my piece than turned a blind eye.
> It's pretty hard to get banned from some channels, but I'm pretty sure Neo Nazi recruiting efforts would do the trick. So where the GMs can't police, the player community can self-police.
Right, so let's say that happened. Would you want to continue to play Gemstone with that person? What if you were one of the mods, and then you encountered them in-game? Would you RP with them, because the character isn't a neo-nazi, the player is?
This kind of false dichotomy is dismissive and unhelpful.
The issue is that there are apparently issues with harassment, hate speech, and threatening violence on 3rd party services that are directly or indirectly involved with playing Gemstone.
One option is to follow up on the reports, investigate when you can, and act when you can. When you cannot, you accept that you did the best you can.
Another option is to write into policy that Simutronics will only take action if the harassment, hate speech, or threat of violence, happens on one of four prescribed places.
Simutronics made an active choice to change their policy on this issue. They did not have to!
Nothing in the old policy said they have to ban you because someone made a fake account in your name. Nothing in the old policy said they must take action on any report, regardless of how spurious. The old policy did not mandate any of the things some posters seem to be concerned about.
The new one greatly limits when Simutronics will act. That is their choice. I am making posts expressing my concerns with it; that is mine. The rest of you don't have to agree with me; I'm okay with that. I would rather have said my piece than turned a blind eye.
> It's pretty hard to get banned from some channels, but I'm pretty sure Neo Nazi recruiting efforts would do the trick. So where the GMs can't police, the player community can self-police.
Right, so let's say that happened. Would you want to continue to play Gemstone with that person? What if you were one of the mods, and then you encountered them in-game? Would you RP with them, because the character isn't a neo-nazi, the player is?
>>This kind of false dichotomy is dismissive and unhelpful.
Not even remotely. It establishes a boundary. I'll choose to interpret your accusatory response as a simple 'no'.
From the rest of your responses, it appears you're requiring Simutronics to assume culpability and responsibility for players' beliefs and attitudes expressed in avenues and on platforms not provided directly by Simutronics.
Is that accurate?
Doug
Not even remotely. It establishes a boundary. I'll choose to interpret your accusatory response as a simple 'no'.
From the rest of your responses, it appears you're requiring Simutronics to assume culpability and responsibility for players' beliefs and attitudes expressed in avenues and on platforms not provided directly by Simutronics.
Is that accurate?
Doug
<<Nothing in the old policy said they have to ban you because someone made a fake account in your name. Nothing in the old policy said they must take action on any report, regardless of how spurious. The old policy did not mandate any of the things some posters seem to be concerned about.
If you were making a fake account with Simutronics and were using it to impersonate or harass another customer it very well could have led to a ban. You might want to go and read Simutronic's TOS policy, located here: https://www.play.net/gs4/simu_policy.asp
~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
If you were making a fake account with Simutronics and were using it to impersonate or harass another customer it very well could have led to a ban. You might want to go and read Simutronic's TOS policy, located here: https://www.play.net/gs4/simu_policy.asp
~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
