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As part of my research on alchemy, I noticed this and wondered why it cannot be made by empaths AND clerics. There is are no obvious restrictions in the formulas that would limit it to one profession. Why? I went on the assumption that it can be made by both professions seeing that there wasn't any reason why it couldn't.
--Zizzle
--Zizzle
empaths dont automatically get everything clerics do. if they did, what's the point of having different professions?
that said, yeah it makes sense. clerics are trained to deal with the undead; that's their stereotype, at least. have to base design decisions on something and stereotypes leads the way a lot.
~Moredin
that said, yeah it makes sense. clerics are trained to deal with the undead; that's their stereotype, at least. have to base design decisions on something and stereotypes leads the way a lot.
~Moredin
empaths dont automatically get everything clerics do. if they did, what's the point of having different professions?
that said, yeah it makes sense. clerics are trained to deal with the undead; that's their stereotype, at least. have to base design decisions on something and stereotypes leads the way a lot.
~Moredin
I understand that there are differences between professions and in many cases there are already items that can only be made by a certain profession. The use of CHANT in an alchemy process ensures professional bias already. I could further understand that some parts of the alchemy formula might require regents/components that only a specific profession can make. However, in this case the only professional restriction in the formula is the use of CHANT, and it is a spell that is able to be cast by both a cleric OR an empath. But I suppose that if it was necessary to restrict a certain alchemy formula to a profession that it would have included something only a cleric can do, otherwise the requirement to create the formula, if met, should be able to made through ALCHEMY by any profession that could complete the steps required.
The formula should change to reflect that only a cleric can do it, or allow it to be made in accordance to the required steps of the formula. I have no problem with certain professions creating things via alchemy. I do have a problem with formulas that appear on their face value to be able to made by more than one profession. There are no restrictions in the process that should prevent an empath to make these talismans.
--Zizzle
that said, yeah it makes sense. clerics are trained to deal with the undead; that's their stereotype, at least. have to base design decisions on something and stereotypes leads the way a lot.
~Moredin
I understand that there are differences between professions and in many cases there are already items that can only be made by a certain profession. The use of CHANT in an alchemy process ensures professional bias already. I could further understand that some parts of the alchemy formula might require regents/components that only a specific profession can make. However, in this case the only professional restriction in the formula is the use of CHANT, and it is a spell that is able to be cast by both a cleric OR an empath. But I suppose that if it was necessary to restrict a certain alchemy formula to a profession that it would have included something only a cleric can do, otherwise the requirement to create the formula, if met, should be able to made through ALCHEMY by any profession that could complete the steps required.
The formula should change to reflect that only a cleric can do it, or allow it to be made in accordance to the required steps of the formula. I have no problem with certain professions creating things via alchemy. I do have a problem with formulas that appear on their face value to be able to made by more than one profession. There are no restrictions in the process that should prevent an empath to make these talismans.
--Zizzle
When the lichbane talisman recipes were released, part of the storyline was one of the cleric guild masters was missing in the rift. So.. maybe some storyline element also helps it be cleric only. There are a few other recipes that have profession restrictions. The chalk sorcerers can make for 740 is sorcerer only, but there is no chant at all in it. So, nothing at all (recipe wise) to restrict it, yet it's still restricted.
<<<The chalk sorcerers can make for 740 is sorcerer only, but there is no chant at all in it. So, nothing at all (recipe wise) to restrict it, yet it's still restricted.>>>
I'm only curious here, but do you know for a fact that sorcerer chalk can only be made by sorcerers? Has any non-sorcerer ever actually tried? Just wondering.
~ Heathyr and friends
I'm only curious here, but do you know for a fact that sorcerer chalk can only be made by sorcerers? Has any non-sorcerer ever actually tried? Just wondering.
~ Heathyr and friends
I understand that there are differences between professions and in many cases there are already items that can only be made by a certain profession. The use of CHANT in an alchemy process ensures professional bias already. I could further understand that some parts of the alchemy formula might require regents/components that only a specific profession can make. However, in this case the only professional restriction in the formula is the use of CHANT, and it is a spell that is able to be cast by both a cleric OR an empath. But I suppose that if it was necessary to restrict a certain alchemy formula to a profession that it would have included something only a cleric can do, otherwise the requirement to create the formula, if met, should be able to made through ALCHEMY by any profession that could complete the steps required.
The formula should change to reflect that only a cleric can do it, or allow it to be made in accordance to the required steps of the formula. I have no problem with certain professions creating things via alchemy. I do have a problem with formulas that appear on their face value to be able to made by more than one profession. There are no restrictions in the process that should prevent an empath to make these talismans.
--Zizzle
CHANT isn't a good indicator of who can make a recipe. If it were then nearly none of the recipes would be profession restricted as any profession could chant almost all spells via 1750.
That being said, I don't think any alchemy recipes should be profession restricted. If I'm a cleric have a 506 self knowledge enhancive/1750 item that lets me chant that spell, then I should be able to make haste potions. Same with any other spell. Maybe one day it will work that way.
Dgry
The formula should change to reflect that only a cleric can do it, or allow it to be made in accordance to the required steps of the formula. I have no problem with certain professions creating things via alchemy. I do have a problem with formulas that appear on their face value to be able to made by more than one profession. There are no restrictions in the process that should prevent an empath to make these talismans.
--Zizzle
CHANT isn't a good indicator of who can make a recipe. If it were then nearly none of the recipes would be profession restricted as any profession could chant almost all spells via 1750.
That being said, I don't think any alchemy recipes should be profession restricted. If I'm a cleric have a 506 self knowledge enhancive/1750 item that lets me chant that spell, then I should be able to make haste potions. Same with any other spell. Maybe one day it will work that way.
Dgry
<<<That being said, I don't think any alchemy recipes should be profession restricted. If I'm a cleric have a 506 self knowledge enhancive/1750 item that lets me chant that spell, then I should be able to make haste potions. Same with any other spell. Maybe one day it will work that way.>>>
Hmm. On the other hand, alchemy implies expert knowledge of your field. I'm not sure an alchemist would have the expertise to work with magic they are not inherently familiar with, even with the benefit of certain magic items.
~ Heathyr
Hmm. On the other hand, alchemy implies expert knowledge of your field. I'm not sure an alchemist would have the expertise to work with magic they are not inherently familiar with, even with the benefit of certain magic items.
~ Heathyr
Hmm. On the other hand, alchemy implies expert knowledge of your field. I'm not sure an alchemist would have the expertise to work with magic they are not inherently familiar with, even with the benefit of certain magic items.
~ Heathyr
I disagree. Hitting level 100 implies expert knowledge of your field.
Alchemy is pretty much a primitive version of chemistry. Spells are simply ingredients in a chemical formula. If anything, it's a "I think I'll try mixing these two things and see what happens" system. There's virtually no expertise involved. Knowledge of alchemy is basically trying every possible combination, discarding those that don't produce results, and refining those that do. A master alchemist in GS is just someone that's just memorized a lot of recipes. If the items produced were of varying potency, I might agree that some mastery were involved, but there isn't any variance. All I see is memorization of proper measurements and steps.
Dgry
~ Heathyr
I disagree. Hitting level 100 implies expert knowledge of your field.
Alchemy is pretty much a primitive version of chemistry. Spells are simply ingredients in a chemical formula. If anything, it's a "I think I'll try mixing these two things and see what happens" system. There's virtually no expertise involved. Knowledge of alchemy is basically trying every possible combination, discarding those that don't produce results, and refining those that do. A master alchemist in GS is just someone that's just memorized a lot of recipes. If the items produced were of varying potency, I might agree that some mastery were involved, but there isn't any variance. All I see is memorization of proper measurements and steps.
Dgry
Hmm. On the other hand, alchemy implies expert knowledge of your field. I'm not sure an alchemist would have the expertise to work with magic they are not inherently familiar with, even with the benefit of certain magic items.
~ Heathyr
I disagree. Hitting level 100 implies expert knowledge of your field.
Alchemy is pretty much a primitive version of chemistry. Spells are simply ingredients in a chemical formula. If anything, it's a "I think I'll try mixing these two things and see what happens" system. There's virtually no expertise involved. Knowledge of alchemy is basically trying every possible combination, discarding those that don't produce results, and refining those that do. A master alchemist in GS is just someone that's just memorized a lot of recipes. If the items produced were of varying potency, I might agree that some mastery were involved, but there isn't any variance. All I see is memorization of proper measurements and steps.
Dgry
I agree with you 100% Dgry. I do not see alchemy as something that is profession restricted. It is merely the knowledge and skill of the alchemist that is important. A formula should be made by any alchemist that can gather the ingredients and perform the necessary steps to do it. I only used CHANT as an example of some formulas that can be made by alchemists that have the ability to CHANT that spell. Frankly, I wasn't even thinking of 1750 (I actually don't know what it is, so more research on my part shortly) which I am assuming gives someone the ability to cast a spell they otherwise wouldn't be able to. But that aside, I would still say that if an alchemist can get the ingredients, have the skill level to create the formula and can do each step in the process they should be able to make the item.
--Zizzle
~ Heathyr
I disagree. Hitting level 100 implies expert knowledge of your field.
Alchemy is pretty much a primitive version of chemistry. Spells are simply ingredients in a chemical formula. If anything, it's a "I think I'll try mixing these two things and see what happens" system. There's virtually no expertise involved. Knowledge of alchemy is basically trying every possible combination, discarding those that don't produce results, and refining those that do. A master alchemist in GS is just someone that's just memorized a lot of recipes. If the items produced were of varying potency, I might agree that some mastery were involved, but there isn't any variance. All I see is memorization of proper measurements and steps.
Dgry
I agree with you 100% Dgry. I do not see alchemy as something that is profession restricted. It is merely the knowledge and skill of the alchemist that is important. A formula should be made by any alchemist that can gather the ingredients and perform the necessary steps to do it. I only used CHANT as an example of some formulas that can be made by alchemists that have the ability to CHANT that spell. Frankly, I wasn't even thinking of 1750 (I actually don't know what it is, so more research on my part shortly) which I am assuming gives someone the ability to cast a spell they otherwise wouldn't be able to. But that aside, I would still say that if an alchemist can get the ingredients, have the skill level to create the formula and can do each step in the process they should be able to make the item.
--Zizzle
>That being said, I don't think any alchemy recipes should be profession restricted.
Wow, can you imagine if any pure could make any alchemy recipe, including outside spells? Alchemy would ALMOST approach being worthwhile!
________________________________
>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"
>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg."
Wow, can you imagine if any pure could make any alchemy recipe, including outside spells? Alchemy would ALMOST approach being worthwhile!
________________________________
>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"
>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg."
Ok did a bit of research on 1750 (Fash'lo'nae's Gift) and I can say that this would certainly not be possible to get around the CHANT verb. Has anybody even attempted to try it? The spell learned can only be PREPARED and CAST. Numerous comments by GM-Oscuro indicates that spells gained in this manner cannot be infused, or be used with any other verb except PREPARE and CAST. I would suspect that trying to use ALCHEMY CHANT would prevent you from using the spell for alchemy purposes as well.
Not to mention that the item that grants this ability is supposedly quite rare, and only last for 10 minutes or so. So it may be quite safe to say that no alchemist would regularly use such a method to create alchemy items that they cannot otherwise make.
--Zizzle
Not to mention that the item that grants this ability is supposedly quite rare, and only last for 10 minutes or so. So it may be quite safe to say that no alchemist would regularly use such a method to create alchemy items that they cannot otherwise make.
--Zizzle
>That being said, I don't think any alchemy recipes should be profession restricted.
Wow, can you imagine if any pure could make any alchemy recipe, including outside spells? Alchemy would ALMOST approach being worthwhile!
Naturally anything that required outside spells (via CHANT) cannot be made by that alchemist. The key here is to look at the requirements in the formula. Most items can be made by any alchemist with the skill to create that item, regardless of profession. The steps needed, and the skill of the alchemist, are what should limit what can be made. Currently the only thing keeping all alchemists from creating Haste potions is the ability to CHANT 506.
Again I am perfectly okay with that. It is logical. What I am not okay with is formulas that have no restrictions in the steps required to make the item being unable to be made by an alchemist. If the alchemist can perform the necessary steps then the item should be able to be made.
That's my opinion anyways. I just hate arbitrary illogical restrictions when otherwise it would appear not to have one.
--Zizzle
Wow, can you imagine if any pure could make any alchemy recipe, including outside spells? Alchemy would ALMOST approach being worthwhile!
Naturally anything that required outside spells (via CHANT) cannot be made by that alchemist. The key here is to look at the requirements in the formula. Most items can be made by any alchemist with the skill to create that item, regardless of profession. The steps needed, and the skill of the alchemist, are what should limit what can be made. Currently the only thing keeping all alchemists from creating Haste potions is the ability to CHANT 506.
Again I am perfectly okay with that. It is logical. What I am not okay with is formulas that have no restrictions in the steps required to make the item being unable to be made by an alchemist. If the alchemist can perform the necessary steps then the item should be able to be made.
That's my opinion anyways. I just hate arbitrary illogical restrictions when otherwise it would appear not to have one.
--Zizzle
Currently the only thing keeping all alchemists from creating Haste potions is the ability to CHANT 506.
That's the thing though, I'd bet you money that a cleric with a 506 knowledge enhancive wouldn't be able to create haste potions at the moment. There's probably a profession flag associated with every recipe in addition to the chant verb.
Dgry
Ok did a bit of research on 1750 (Fash'lo'nae's Gift) and I can say that this would certainly not be possible to get around the CHANT verb. Has anybody even attempted to try it? The spell learned can only be PREPARED and CAST. Numerous comments by GM-Oscuro indicates that spells gained in this manner cannot be infused, or be used with any other verb except PREPARE and CAST. I would suspect that trying to use ALCHEMY CHANT would prevent you from using the spell for alchemy purposes as well.
Not to mention that the item that grants this ability is supposedly quite rare, and only last for 10 minutes or so. So it may be quite safe to say that no alchemist would regularly use such a method to create alchemy items that they cannot otherwise make.
1750 definiteoly does not work with ALCHEMY CHANT.
There are a number of items that have been released in the game that grant 1750 1x per day.
-- Faulkil
Not to mention that the item that grants this ability is supposedly quite rare, and only last for 10 minutes or so. So it may be quite safe to say that no alchemist would regularly use such a method to create alchemy items that they cannot otherwise make.
1750 definiteoly does not work with ALCHEMY CHANT.
There are a number of items that have been released in the game that grant 1750 1x per day.
-- Faulkil
Again I am perfectly okay with that. It is logical. What I am not okay with is formulas that have no restrictions in the steps required to make the item being unable to be made by an alchemist. If the alchemist can perform the necessary steps then the item should be able to be made.
It was explained on the official forums some time back that the design idea behind alchemy was that it was not just a matter of combining ingredients in a particular order but that it was a magical process and such was the result of the ingredients, the process, and the magic of the individual creating the alchemical result.
As such, a sorcerer may use magic differently or have a deeper understanding of the magic than any other profession when making chalk. Likewise there may be subtle differences in the magic between a cleric and empath when making certain items even though they both can achieve the same spell effect required in the creation of the item.
While I dislike the use of profession as a success criteria for certain alchemy recipes I would argue that there is some logic behind it.
The reason for my original inquiry on this thread is that someone told me (a long time back) that empaths could make lichbane talismans. When my empath friend attempted to make a minor lichbane talisman they were unscuessful even though they appeared to meet all of the obvious requirements. My hope was that this would not also be the case for the greater talismans.
-- Faulkil
It was explained on the official forums some time back that the design idea behind alchemy was that it was not just a matter of combining ingredients in a particular order but that it was a magical process and such was the result of the ingredients, the process, and the magic of the individual creating the alchemical result.
As such, a sorcerer may use magic differently or have a deeper understanding of the magic than any other profession when making chalk. Likewise there may be subtle differences in the magic between a cleric and empath when making certain items even though they both can achieve the same spell effect required in the creation of the item.
While I dislike the use of profession as a success criteria for certain alchemy recipes I would argue that there is some logic behind it.
The reason for my original inquiry on this thread is that someone told me (a long time back) that empaths could make lichbane talismans. When my empath friend attempted to make a minor lichbane talisman they were unscuessful even though they appeared to meet all of the obvious requirements. My hope was that this would not also be the case for the greater talismans.
-- Faulkil
