Fact 1: The list was created for Warriors, Paladins, and Rogues.
Fact 2: The list is called the "ARMOR" list because it has to do with armor training.
Fact 3: The more you train in armor, the more points you get to spend on the list - or - greater benefit you receive.
Fact 4: The Rogue who trains for the highest armor cannot use the list for any noticeable benefit.

---

I think you are mixing facts with opinion here. We're agreed on 1 and 2. Also, as a point of reference, I believe when the ARMOR system was released it was stated that one of the design goals/purpose of the release was to encourage lighter armor use (or to bring some balance to lighter armor vs. heavier armor). I'm paraphrasing but I think I have captured the general gist of what was stated. It's seems pretty obvious that was at least some of the intention given how the skills scale with the heavier armor groups.

Fact 3: The more you train in armor, the more points you get to spend on the list and the greater potential benefit you can reap (depending on the armor you choose to wear).

Fact 4: Those training extensively in the armor skill will need to make a choice between the benefits of heavier armor vs. the benefits of using ARMOR skills with lighter armor types (or using lighter armor and not overtraining in the armor skill at all).

-- Robert

The DS benefits for using lighter armor are pretty small. With 303 ranks of dodge and a AGI bonus of 35 here's how it plays out (no weapon or shield, some spells [401, 406, 414, 503, 103]):

---

Defensive, 7x MBP, rank 3 evasion, empty hands:

A frozen corpse swings a large ice pick at you!
AS: +282 vs DS: +470 with AvD: +47 + d100 roll: +41 = -100
A clean miss.

Offensive, 7x MBP, rank 3 evasion, empty hands:

A frozen corpse swings a large ice pick at you!
AS: +282 vs DS: +339 with AvD: +47 + d100 roll: +66 = +56
A clean miss.

Defensive, no armor, empty hands:

A polar bear throws her head back and roars ferociously!
A polar bear claws at you!
AS: +386 vs DS: +466 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +12 = -27
A clean miss.

Offensive, no armor, empty hands:

A polar bear claws at you!
AS: +331 vs DS: +330 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +91 = +133
... and hits for 6 points of damage!
Minor puncture to the right arm.

---

35ish DS is definitely nothing to sneeze at, that's actually quite nice. However, in most cases my AvD would be worse not better, my CvA is enormously worse off in all cases in lower armor, and check out that polar bear actually getting a crit on my arm because of the higher DFs and lower crit divisors.

You might wonder why I moved to polar bears - that's because I stood in front of the corpses for a very long time and couldn't get past outright evading them, because my huge dodge ranks, 3 ranks of dodge mastery, and no armor makes me very, very hard to hit. But the problem comes back to getting crushed by that one hit that does make it through.

Vvrael destroyers swing mauls and claids, anybody feel like going up against them in robes?

All that said, I think heavy armor is fine for rogues, but I wouldn't complain if we got more out of those doubled ranks. Efforts to improve lighter armor for rogues will always be applauded by me (though I'm quite happy in MBP, personally I find it stylish).

I think the biggest hurdle to overcome when it comes comparing light armor to heavy armor is the fact that most of the mechanics that benefit light armor are those that we can't see.

DS, AvD, and CvA are what they are.

Evade %, Maneuver Penalties, Action Penalties, etc... are much more difficult to nail down and make the entire concept a hard sale.

I am not going to delve into the semantics of what a rogue is on paper, or get into a philosophical debate as to whether or not GS is a 'class based game' first and a 'skill based game' second. I'm also not going to get into which is 'better', or 'more viable', because frankly they both have their pros and their cons. At the end of the day just do what works best for you and your play style.

What I think is being overlooked is how fundamentally different it is to 'play' a lightly armored rogue compared to a heavily armored rogue. If you are used to playing in plate and have done so for years, then decide you are going to throw on some brig you are going to have a pretty bad time. If you decide to just throw on robes to see what the fuss is all about, you're going to have a VERY bad time.

Training priorities (spell ranks, for example), CMan decisions, and tactics are going to vary greatly along the Armor Selection Spectrum (don't use that as an acronym). There are magic builds, stealth builds, sniping builds, open archery builds, open combat builds, etc etc etc.

A lot of rogues stay in lighter armor for spell hindrance alone. I would also go out on a limb and say that most rogues are going to 1x armor no matter what. 3 ranks of an armor skill is nothing to shake a stick at by cap, especially when it comes to armored stealth. The bonus to hiding in soft leather and robes is profound, yet again, it is a bonus we cannot 'see'. 5 ranks of armored stealth in robes is practically broken when combined with vanish (shhhh). Throw in evade mastery, tap on some duck and weave, some self-cast e-wave... and suddenly you're a lot less worried about what your CvA is because you're focused on crowd control and managing swarms.

Yeah. Bad things happen. You might die now and again... but last I checked rogues in plate die once in a while, too. Thing is, AS and CS attacks aren't the only things out there that can kill you, and no one needs me to tell them that. I've been all over the spectrum with armor over the years and I definitely sense that the effects of certain CMans and Maneuvers are mitigated when in lighter armor, primarily in the avoidance and RT departments. Not to mention the ability to outright evade attacks, or outright evade CS attacks if you invest in Slippery Mind (27% in robes). These are all redundant points, however.

The catch is these aren't mechanics that can be 'seen', so it is difficult to take that 27% evasion rate from Slippery Mind and compare it apples to apples with CvA. It isn't fair to. CS mitigation through Slippery Mind vs. a better CvA are fundamentally different approaches to addressing the same mechanic. That doesn't mean that either should be summarily dismissed or labeled inferior. They're just... different. Being able to take a big hit vs. not taking the hit at all vs. vanishing before the hit can happen. Rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock anyone?

I think it is pretty neat that rogues can be such a diverse class and still be devastatingly effective. Play, adapt, and break the game one day at a time. Rogues in plate and robes alike should be able to coexist. Do I think that maybe rogues that 2x in armor could use a little more than the shaft if they want to be in plate? Yeah. I can get behind that. Maybe armored evasion should be tweaked to give more of a benefit all around. That said, I am going to take my 200 armor ranks, my 5 ranks of armored stealth, and my robes over to a warcamp and do my best Hattori Hanzo impression.

.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.

<<I think the biggest hurdle to overcome when it comes comparing light armor to heavy armor is the fact that most of the mechanics that benefit light armor are those that we can't see.>>

<<DS, AvD, and CvA are what they are.>>

<<Evade %, Maneuver Penalties, Action Penalties, etc... are much more difficult to nail down and make the entire concept a hard sale.>>

I think this is a big part of it too. It's hard to point to one of those benefits and say "that's why I wear light armor," because it's impossible to quantify the exact benefit (as nice as it might be).

>>That said, I am going to take my 200 armor ranks, my 5 ranks of armored stealth, and my robes over to a warcamp and do my best Hattori Hanzo impression.

I can appreciate what you said in your post, and really have tried to see things from the light armor side, honestly. I just used a fixskills last night, and really tried to find a build that would work for me in light armor, but couldn't. I really really really would love to be able to wear light armor, but it would be MUCH more difficult for me.

I did end up going from full plate to MBP, though, since I will be hunting rift crawlers a lot, from now on, and I wanted to go a little lighter + train 3x perception for them.

Also, keep in mind that this is coming from a brawling rogue. I would benefit more from light armor that most, because of the UAC penalties of wearing heavy armor!

But even so, wearing light armor just isn't typically good advice for a capped rogue. As I said earlier - There are a handful of rogues that pull it off, but typically these are ones with a great deal of post cap XP and/or a great deal of money to spend on exceptional gear (usually a bit of both).

Of course, there are ways to make light armor work. But to make it sound as if it is an equal path compared to heavy armor, is just plain wrong. Almost every capped rogue I know wears plate armor. The fact that most rogues WANT to wear light armor, but don't, is pretty telling, in my opinion. Life in plate is far less difficult at cap.

And almost every light armor wearing rogue I know, at cap, knows at least 120 or 430; but usually both. I also don't personally know any that aren't snipers, since it's a much more forgiving build for light armors, since you can shoot from the shadows and vanish if you get unhidden. Granted, it seems you aren't a sniper, but then the first thing that comes to mind is that you either have expensive magic items to cast extra TD spells on yourself, or have enough XP to afford 430 and/or 120. Or perhaps you only hunt in a group, for the safety it affords?

Well, either that, or you die a lot.

Most capped rogues wear plate, and would advise you to wear plate if asked. And most of them learned this through experience.

>>But even so, wearing light armor just isn't typically good advice for a capped rogue. As I said earlier - There are a handful of rogues that pull it off, but typically these are ones with a great deal of post cap XP and/or a great deal of money to spend on exceptional gear (usually a bit of both).

This is the thing that always gets me. Yes, my rogue is post cap (very), which in many of these conversations makes my opinions null and void. So we'll go back in time for a bit. I'll preface by saying that I play in Plat, so my OTF experiences were different in that it took me longer to fry. I won't do the whole "The swarms aren't as bad here so it is easier" since my rogue's training was pretty much tailored to decimate swarms. The bigger the swarm, the better. Regular hunting is just too slow.

Entertain me just a moment while I reflect... or do yourself a favor and skip to the end.

My rogue wasn't born capped. He was your typical GS3 ambusher in MBP. When GS4 hit he dropped into the game at level 53 as a pure stealth rogue in brig with 3x hide, TWC, and e-wave (10 spell ranks total). I never saw CS attacks as my rogue's weakness. I saw crowd control as his weakness. Plat was a pretty solo and self-cast experience when it came to hunting. So I played around for weeks ahead of time in the test server and addressed my perceived short comings with e-wave, overkill stealth, and new tactics. It was brutally effective up through Wyneb, the Rift, Maaghara, and the Duct/West Wood areas of OTF. Brutally. When I tried the main area of OTF my DS was suddenly a problem with the flaring weapons. Getting tagged with 20 seconds of RT by a war griffin then sniffed out despite being tripled in hide didn't help matters either. So I had to make some quick adjustments and cashed in a fixskill.

He went from 87-100 in double leathers. Yes, you read that right. Double leathers. I had been called unviable and off my rocker the whole way so I developed a natural chip on my shoulder and figured... why not? Yes, my character could now cast 120 and 414. As I said, most rogues in light armor tend to train different than rogues in heavy armor, and one of the most popular ways to do so is magic. He was sword and bored and only 2x in dodge, 1x in shield, and 2x in hide. This was also back before all of the perks to light armor were in place. Heck, Shadow Mastery was barely even a thing. In hindsight knowing what I know now, I would have dropped TWC to 1x and just upped my dodge instead of going shield.

Why was he in double leathers? Well, this is where the 'gear' argument carries some weight, but not in the way that most would think. If I would have had awesome augmented chain? I would have been wearing awesome augmented chain (I had an okay 6x set with no padding that enhanced my CMan ranks, woo). If I would have had awesome brig? I would have been wearing awesome brig. I didn't have awesome brig or awesome chain, even though my spell slinging rogue went UP to 90 ranks of armor (min spell hindrance for aug chain, figured more armor is better if I was gearing towards defense). What I 'did' have, was a set of 6x double leathers with self-mana camo. No padding. No resistances. No enhancives. Just good old self-mana camouflage when rubbed. The reason I used it was quite simply the war griffin factor. No other reason. It made it possible to reliably hide on them after they swooped down in order to take them out.

I figured if I was going down I was going down, and going down in doubles would just speed up the process and save me some time, but the funny thing is... I didn't die that much at all... and eventually those armor ranks started going away (there were no armor points back then, and I wanted more mana) until I was eventually down to just 10 ranks. So here I was grinding my way to cap, solo-hunting, purely self-cast, with 4x disposable weapons and a 4x buckler because only 5 people could survive OTF and you still dropped what you were holding when you died, so you'd have to log out and wait for someone to be around to rescue you (up hills both way, blah blah I know). All of that aside I was having a rather easy go at it. Sure I had my bad weeks because OTF is cheap and bad luck happens, but all in all... it was a pretty uneventful steamroll to cap.

Let's go a little post cap now.

Eventually Nelemar came around (first one in, go me)... and everyone was talking about how crazy charge was and how it was basically instant death. I was just getting mild stuns and walking away from it. Until I started hunting there more and more and my dependence on the self-mana camo began to take a back seat. I put TPs back into armor, put the double leathers into storage, and went back to augmented chain. It was awful. I started getting knocked around, started failing casts, started getting absolutely DESTROYED by charge and other CMans and maneuvers. But hey, my CvA was nicer. Then as luck would have it, I scored one of those armor change certificates and made those double leathers into brigandine, and it was a glorious couple of months! Then evade mastery came out. Then Armor Points came out... and I really wished they were doubles again. On top of that I swear 7% spell hindrance is actually 70% when it matters, and that 7% seems like it happens an awful lot when you're used to 0%.

Even still. I put padding on them, got them enchanted, and threw on some nice enhancives. Eventually? I scored another armor change certificate and made them double leathers again. Eventually I hit 200 armor ranks, tried some robes... and the rest is more or less history. EBP was sick. Hiding was sick. Everything just seemed easier and more fluid. The doubles went back in storage. Admittedly at that time, yes, my rogue could cast 430 and 120. I could make an argument that in all honesty he doesn't 'need' all the extra DS from those spells, since nothing comes even close to hitting him even IF they manage to sneak past his wall of EBP. Then one day for kicks I went up to 202 armor ranks and put +8 armor on my AG badge to get min casting hindrance in MBP. I borrowed the suit of Adamantine breastplate and went out expecting laughs and game breaking defense.

Never have I been so wrong.

I had more close calls and died more in one day than I had since... well... ever. It was embarrassing. Even with a paladin halving the spell hindrance it felt like I was botching every cast. The poor guy was getting knocked around like a rag doll by maneuvers, and getting HIT! Actually taking HITS! The result was getting plinked to death by physical attacks that weren't even touching him before via either EBP or a higher all around DS. I couldn't get back into robes fast enough.

Was it because plate is bad? No, not at all. Moral of the story is that I wasn't trained for it anymore. My skills, cmans, tactics, and play style were not suited for heavy armor so naturally it proved to be a troublesome hindrance rather than an advantage. My spell ranks were killing my redux, for example.

The problem is a lot of rogues that are used to plate, and geared for plate... just go throw on some brig and rush out to see what kind of a beating they can or can't take. It isn't fair or productive to give it a day or two and then come to the boards with the doctrine that plate is the only viable option for rogues when it quite simply could not be further from the truth. It discourages conversation and experimentation, especially when numerous examples and experiences are simply being brushed aside because, "Oh they just have great gear and are post cap".

No offense, but, who's making excuses for who?

.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.

>>Not to mention the ability to outright evade attacks, or outright evade CS attacks if you invest in Slippery Mind (27% in robes). These are all redundant points, however.

I also forgot to touch on this point.

Here's my problem with slippery mind, and why I feel it is not worth it, for most rogues.

I know I personally walk a fine line between being able to get warded, and not. Depending on the critter (I won't even count the scatter, because CS there is insane.), I typically have around 90-95% chance of warding their spells. Some are right at about 100%, if I am underhunting enough. This is with -18 CvA.

If I were to switch to robes, I would lose 33 TD, but gain 27% chance to evade. That means I would go from being 0-10% of being warded, to like 30-40% chance.

Unless you already have less than 27% chance to ward an attack, slippery mind is not really worth getting into robes for, in my opinion. It puts your fate into the hands of the dice, more so than raw +TD.

>>Did you, by chance, actually read his post? He pretty explicitly stated that he got to cap using light armor, and that attempting MBP actually led to him getting utterly destroyed in his preferred hunting grounds. He's living proof that pre-cap light armor is very viable.

Did you not read my statement that you quoted? I can't say I know Jaired, especially since he is in plat.

He was also clear that he struggled at first, until he used a fixskills. He also made it clear that after the fixskills, he learned 120, which is exactly what I stated must be done, for a rogue to reasonably succeed in light armor.

>>Jaired said that he actually goes looking for the biggest swarms possible. It's what he designed his build for. At the same time, Jaired dies so rarely that it becomes an event in Plat. Anything that can take him down will pretty much obliterate anyone.

And he likely has like 100 ranks of MoC, and who knows what else. Enough post cap XP, and you can become damn near invincible. But I can guarantee you he was no swarm killing machine, when he was leveling from 87 to 100, that's for damn sure.

Most of the points he is making, and most people that try to make light armor sound so hunky dory for that matter, are misleading.

Give me 20 mil post cap XP and I could hunt naked and dance around in the open!

It's ok, I can understand where you're coming from.

As someone coming from GS3 as a pure brawling rogue, at a time when there was only one other rogue I knew of that was also one, I can understand the appeal of using a fighting style that is not common.

I actually preferred things before the UAC system came out, because it was a more rare playstyle. Now everyone and their uncle has fixskilled into brawling, when I had to struggle through it, even in the hardest of times when there was only Voln Fu and an undead gap. It almost seems unfair, at times.

So, here comes someone pointing out that light armor has serious flaws (myself), and is advocating change, but you are being stern about how it's just fine as is. Why? Because you like that it's a rare playstyle, and you don't want a bunch of rogues to suddenly fixskills into light armor, in the event that it were improved.

If this is not true, then why are you arguing against me - someone who is simply posting here in order to try and improve the usefulness of light armor, and make it more enticing to most rogues.

You can say all you want about how "viable" it is for you, but the facts speak for themselves. Most rogues end up in plate. So I guess they are all mistaken, and are missing out on the superior benefits that light armor awards? Obviously not.

So much for bowing out.

>>Why? Because you like that it's a rare playstyle, and you don't want a bunch of rogues to suddenly fixskills into light armor, in the event that it were improved.

I'm sorry but you are making it very difficult to take any of this conversation seriously. I'm advocating that more rogues should try light armor and weigh the options and different tactics available to them. I'm not in any way arguing against improvements because I want to protect my play style. I'm not arguing against improvements at all. If that was the case I wouldn't bother posting about it and keep my dark little secrets to myself.

The original subject of this whole thread was based on the notion that PLATE armor needed improvements for rogues and PLATE armor should receive more benefit from over-training in armor via Armor Points. What followed has been a frank discussion about how most of the improvements that have been put into place for rogues has only been a boon for lighter armor. Thus leading to points being thrown around that no matter what Dev has done, plate is still the superior option and there is no reason for a rogue to be in anything else.

I'm summarizing but it was pretty much said in so many words that no rogue in their right mind near or at cap wears light armor unless they are insanely post-cap and have the best gear that cash money can buy.

So I decided to play Devil's Advocate and present my own experiences with light armor. Before cap. Before all of the improvements were made. Before a lot of the new CMans were in place. Before a lot of things. Solo. Self-cast. In fairly vanilla gear. I tried to explain why I did it and how. How I eventually came to the conclusion that heavier armor proved to be a hindrance when I tried to move back into it. Just to illustrate a point that it only takes a little shift in priorities to break out of the mold.

All I've been trying to communicate is that light armor is not as inferior as it is being painted to be if you properly train your character to take advantage of it. Not to mislead. I know I'm not alone out there.

.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.

>>I'm sorry but you are making it very difficult to take any of this conversation seriously. I'm advocating that more rogues should try light armor and weigh the options and different tactics available to them. 

And I think I've been pretty straightforward in saying how this is wrong. You are making it sound like you had an easier time in light armor at level 87, in the highest level area of OTF, than you did in heavy armor (Did you say MBP? I can't remember.), which I simply don't believe. The only reason you would have had an easier time, is if you had such terrible training in other skills, that those changes are what made the difference. You could even have been 3x picking and disarming, and 2x pickpocketing, when you wore heavy armor, for all I know, but then dropped them for a war rogue build. 

>>I'm advocating that more rogues should try light armor and weigh the options and different tactics available to them. I'm not in any way arguing against improvements because I want to protect my play style. I'm not arguing against improvements at all. If that was the case I wouldn't bother posting about it and keep my dark little secrets to myself.

So you are basically making the assumption that most rogues have not already given light armor a try? Most have, and chose MBP in the end. But regardless, even if they haven't, I think it's better for a rogue to not listen to your advice, and save themselves the trouble of having to fixskills in order to be able to wear heavier armor, because things were too difficult for them in light armor. Get a large amount of post cap XP first, then make the switch; Or go sniper. That would be my personal advice to anyone. 

>>The original subject of this whole thread was based on the notion that PLATE armor needed improvements for rogues and PLATE armor should receive more benefit from over-training in armor via Armor Points. What followed has been a frank discussion about how most of the improvements that have been put into place for rogues has only been a boon for lighter armor. Thus leading to points being thrown around that no matter what Dev has done, plate is still the superior option and there is no reason for a rogue to be in anything else. 

Yeah, it's true, this specific thread was originally about that. It sort of just combined with the previous thread, that was by me, and was advocating a change that would sort of help plate, but would especially help lighter armors (especially brig and torso chain.). I'd be all for an increase to the effectiveness of armor overtraining, even for plate armor - but ultimately I think more needs to be done in the light armor department. 

>>How I eventually came to the conclusion that heavier armor proved to be a hindrance when I tried to move back into it. 

I'd like to know how, exactly. The amount of dodge DS you would have lost would have been pretty insignificant, especially how you were trained when you made the switch (not 3x dodge.). Again, I don't buy it. I blame it on your training, not on the armor. Or maybe your playing skills improved. 

I have even tried an ewave build in OTF, and it was way worse for me than when I wore plate (because there are too many ways to get ambushed, etc.), and mana was a limitation. In fact, it's better advice to tell rogues to avoid fighting more than one critter, and even divert if that's what it takes, to single out a critter. 

>>Just to illustrate a point that it only takes a little shift in priorities to break out of the mold.

And I would again like to point out, that that mold exists for a reason. 

I'm all for people breaking from the mold, if they can, seeing how I've been a brawling rogue for so many years. But just because I f ound ways to make it work for me, did not mean that brawling didn't need serious attention to be more balanced. I struggled far more than most rogues did, because of it, and it's not something I'd have recommended to anyone, except for major RP reasons. The reality is, that no matter how much I try to sugar coat it, I had a very difficult time because of it. 

If somebody had posted suggestions for improvements to brawling, back then, and I responded by going into great detail about how well I've managed to make it work out for me, I'd simply be working against any changes being made to it.  

>>You are making it sound like you had an easier time in light armor at level 87, in the highest level area of OTF, than you did in heavy armor (Did you say MBP? I can't remember.), which I simply don't believe. The only reason you would have had an easier time, is if you had such terrible training in other skills, that those changes are what made the difference. You could even have been 3x picking and disarming, and 2x pickpocketing, when you wore heavy armor, for all I know, but then dropped them for a war rogue build.

We're all on the same side here. My training was fine. It just wasn't suited for OTF. If Nelemar was around back then I would have just went there instead. I was fine on the first two planes of the Rift but it was too much of a hassle to be making the round trips. I was doing a TWC, 3x hide stealth build with e-wave (ten spell ranks total), in brig from level 53 - 87. My priorities were to just not get hit and to avoid getting put into a situations where I could get hit. Stealth, e-wave, and mstrike was my answer. Being able to take a hit and ward was lower on my list.

And I'm sorry but I don't need you to simply believe in anything. It is just exactly what happened. My experiences in OTF brought me to the conclusion that I just needed to wring out every single point of offensive DS that I could to keep from getting tagged by flaring weapons (and tagged in general). I initially tried augmented chain, but someone hooked me up with some double leathers that had self-mana camo... and that made a world of difference against war griffins. So I switched to them. Again, being able to take a hit wasn't my priority. Not getting hit at all was. I went with the strategic advantage the doubles gave me over the lack of protection.

To me OTF was strictly a DS game. Get to 440 in offensive and you're in the clear. Sure, CS was an issue once in a while... but not the main issue. If I could stand in the open after getting shrieked by a griffin and have a high enough DS to avoid getting hit, I was doing alright. If a Seer faded on me? You bet your buns I ran for the exit and laid low for a bit. I probably would have done that if I was in plate. No shame in making a strategic exit, after all.

But anyway... I think we've gotten off on the wrong foot some how. I'm not trying to stand in the way of any improvements. I'm just trying to explain my experiences in the hope that someone can glean something from it all.

.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.

>>It was years ago but I busted out an old version of my training spreadsheet and at level 95 this is how Jaired plotted out. I'll just toss it all out there.

This is exactly why I said you were being misleading. First of all, you said you were in double leather, not brig. You also said you tried wearing heavy armor and it was worse, but you obviously didn't do so until you had a crazy amount of post cap XP.

Let me pick apart your build, and show you exactly why it is so inferior to plate, at level 95. I assume you forgot to mention that you were 2x dodge, so I will factor that in, as well as assume the use of a 4x small shield (I will disregard certain bonuses, that would be exactly the same for either build, because I am trying to point out DS/TD differences between the two, only.). I will use 25 AGI/INT/DEX/STR bonus, as a baseline.

With your brig build , you would see a +122 DS bonus from dodge, and a +70 DS bonus from your shield, for a total of +192 DS. Now, factor in the +15 DS from 120, since it's the only self cast only spell you knew, and you get a grand total of +207 DS, and +20 spirit TD (+10 non-spirit). I would also like to point out that this build only has 100 mana to use (You can't go around ewaving and spirit striking everything you see, by a long shot.), loses some redux, and is 50 AS less that a 2x CM build. In most capped areas, being 50 AS deficient, you will have a hard time overcoming the DS of many of the critters, thus exposing yourself to more danger upon a failed attack (compounded by the chance of being E/B/P, that all melee face.).

Now, let's say you dropped all the spell ranks, and dropped the 1x shield use. This would give you enough points to 3x dodge, get 90 ranks for MBP, 1x TWC, almost 2x CM, and get the few more AS and/or MIU ranks you would need for spellburst. The extra CM would not just give you much needed AS, but would also allow you to train combat focus, thus getting an additional +10 TD (among other additional CM's.). The total DS from this build would be +232. Also, with 3x dodge, your chance to outright evade would be higher. The TD difference, would be +20 non-spirit TD higher than the magical build (factoring CvA difference and combat focus), and +10 spirit TD higher. The DS would be +25 higher. Your redux would be better, your AS would be higher, you could swing with two weapons, you could get +10 extra DS from using a gauche or no second weapon (giving it a +35 greater DS total), and you would have the vastly superior protection of plate armor.

The only benefit to the spell casting build, is if you had no way to get guards and blues from others (But trying to hunt without a full outside spellup, would be near suicide, anyways, in brig.)

>>I should expand on this experiment. For those that may have glossed over it: I tried 202 armor ranks, +8 armor enhancive, MBP, and max Armored Fluidity for 8% Spell Hindrance. For kicks and giggles. Obviously post cap at this point. I only tried Nelemar a few times, so most of the testing was done in warcamps. This is pretty much a summary of the hardships I came across.

Again, you were very misleading, when you said that heavy armor was a hinderance for you. You failed to mention that you tried it with a crazy spell casting build, with a gazillion post cap experience points, and only really used it in warcamps, which is sunfist only.

As I already stated many times - I agree that once you have enough post cap XP to afford 430 and 120, and have plenty of mana to use, wearing heavy armor becomes less useful (Though you still would want plate for the scatter.). But you made it sound as if you used heavy armor between levels 87 and 100, and it made things more difficult. This was very misleading on your part. You also said you were in double leather, which was also misleading.

>>The other day, Tamuz and I were looking at rogues, and of 8 capped rogues in game at the time, 1 was in robes, 2 were in doubles, 2 were in brigandine, and 3 in full plate. Just wanted to toss some facts out there from a NIR!

And how many of those in light armors were archers, or have tons of post cap XP?

>>This is exactly why I said you were being misleading. First of all, you said you were in double leather, not brig. You also said you tried wearing heavy armor and it was worse, but you obviously didn't do so until you had a crazy amount of post cap XP.

Earlier Post from myself:
>>I initially tried augmented chain, but someone hooked me up with some double leathers that had self-mana camo... and that made a world of difference against war griffins. So I switched to them. Again, being able to take a hit wasn't my priority. Not getting hit at all was. I went with the strategic advantage the doubles gave me over the lack of protection.

...

>>Again, you were very misleading, when you said that heavy armor was a hinderance for you. You failed to mention that you tried it with a crazy spell casting build, with a gazillion post cap experience points,

Earlier Post from Myself:
>>Eventually I hit 200 armor ranks, tried some robes... and the rest is more or less history. EBP was sick. Hiding was sick. Everything just seemed easier and more fluid. The doubles went back in storage. Admittedly at that time, yes, my rogue could cast 430 and 120. I could make an argument that in all honesty he doesn't 'need' all the extra DS from those spells, since nothing comes even close to hitting him even IF they manage to sneak past his wall of EBP. Then one day for kicks I went up to 202 armor ranks and put +8 armor on my AG badge to get min casting hindrance in MBP.

And.

>>Was it because plate is bad? No, not at all. Moral of the story is that I wasn't trained for it anymore. My skills, cmans, tactics, and play style were not suited for heavy armor so naturally it proved to be a troublesome hindrance rather than an advantage. My spell ranks were killing my redux, for example.

>>Let me pick apart your build, and show you exactly why it is so inferior to plate, at level 95. I assume you forgot to mention that you were 2x dodge

Hell, I'd do it very differently today, too. I was just asked what my skills were and answered the question. Yep, I forgot to mention I was 2x in dodge. Thanks.

Hindsight is 20/20. Thing is I wouldn't have dropped the spells because of how useful I found them. Sure I could have dropped them and had a better AS and DS if I did this or that, but then I would have lost a major chunk of my crowd control ability... which...

Earlier Post from Myself:
>>I never saw CS attacks as my rogue's weakness. I saw crowd control as his weakness.

The only reason I'm still here is because I am being called misleading... when I've been very up front and rather precise in regards to what I did, why I did it, where I did it, and how.

I'm starting to question if my posts are actually being read or just being selectively read over.

I'll be honest here it is starting to seem a little like trolling.

.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.

<<And I'm sorry but I don't need you to simply believe in anything. It is just exactly what happened. My experiences in OTF brought me to the conclusion that I just needed to wring out every single point of offensive DS that I could to keep from getting tagged by flaring weapons (and tagged in general). I initially tried augmented chain, but someone hooked me up with some double leathers that had self-mana camo... and that made a world of difference against war griffins. So I switched to them. Again, being able to take a hit wasn't my priority. Not getting hit at all was. I went with the strategic advantage the doubles gave me over the lack of protection.>>

That really is the name of the game in OTF. I find that in other areas without horrible, horrible lightning flares, I'm not really getting hit on a 101, it's more where the critter has to end up with to give me a rank 1, but in OTF, every ounce of DS is precious.

One thing I see in your training at 95 is the 55 ranks in MOC. I only had 5 ranks for a long time, then 10 for a while, and within the last year got enough for a 2 swing focused / 3 swing unfocused, and that was a mistake. I'd highly recommend getting those ranks earlier for any rogue, despite the high cost.

...I really hope these posts aren't boring people into comas.

---

I'm taking notes for my 55 rogue who wears Brigandine. I appreciate your time posting in such detail.

-- Robert

I hope no one is getting overly annoyed, I find it actually a great discussion on the variety and variables associated with Rogues hunting styles. Probably one of the things I like best about the class and one reason I have played more rogues then any other class over the years.

Personal style/likes/what have yous for any training build on any class in all honesty. Anything can work if you do it right, I could name a person or 20 who say you have to do it THIS way cause it's the best. But it really all comes down to what works for you personally, the nice thing is all the options we have in GS4.

I like making builds now and again that let me uphunt 5-20 levels on critters just to see what the treasure system will spit out, and on my rogues I don't go past Brig for that. Is it a mistake or just my personal choice for what works for me? Up to each person to find their own groove. Now you can ask about, when I first started the uphunting I did a lot of dieing, and in Plat that's a very bad thing. A tweak or two to training and I was killing storm giants at level 25 pretty much no problem. And in Prime I was having a field day with Troll kings at level 42 years before I tried Plat.

I'll be honest I've been in OTF once and the Rift once, But not only am I member of "I'm Never going to Cap" club I'm also the president. So take my "end game experience into account if you like. And by-the-by I did just fine and didn't die after 2-3 hour hunts in both places.

Now in Prime I have some really nice armor, in Plat not so much (both instances I wear brig on the rogues, just the prime set is a heck of a lot nicer). It is a lot more self sufficient of an instance across the fence. Outside spells and help to prep one for a hunt isn't always available, or rather more often then not it is not.

Now just food for thought, this is dealing with ones playing style as JD's posts have said. I managed to get a x5 tower shield with +5 TD, all I have is x5 shields in Plat of one flavor or another. I also got some decent Hauberk that had a +5 TD and some MBP that also had a +8 TD. Now I figured with those since I was in an area with a caster as the biggest critter would help me out in warding the occasional cast I got hit with, which was how I would die on rare occasions.

Biggest mistake I could make with MY style of hunting, I couldn't ditch the tower shield fast enough and go back to my medium one and put my brig back on fast enough to make me happy after trying the TD gear out I had acquired. I got pulled out of hiding and hit a heck of a lot more with that gear then I did with my old brig and medium shield. the extra TD didn't help overall compared to how many hits I would take while using it.

Now I could mention there is a certain Wizard player who is all and only about the weapon swinging warmage and pretty much thinks any other build is a waste for a wizard. I don't agree with them and am 99.9% sure I've never argued with them about it, even if it drives me nuts. I do my own build on that class as well, cause it works for me and gets me the results I want. (and sorry not picking on you, just using our diverse methods of training wizards as an example. And no I don't want to argue the points with you or anyone else on any classes builds.)

Best thing I can possibly say on the subject is this game comes down to finding what works for you and your personal style and your likes and dislikes. As Wyrom pointed out you will see diversity amongst every class if you look at them. Least that is what I took from his post. Trying to pick apart someones experience from what works for them as to what works for you isn't overly helpful to the over all experience. Sharing methods and information on why you do what you do is though.


Senglent and his wayward kin.

Thanks for adding your viewpoint, Jaired. :) (Honestly, it was the first (set of) post(s) that I've actually bothered to read all the way through in this thread in several days.)

.

.

Basically, what much of the argument boils down to is, "Try both. FULLY. Total revamp your training--weapon(s) used [multiple small, single big, or adding a board], fighting style [hidden, open, multi-striking], and other options [armor or not, spells or not, items or not, cmans or not, whatever or not]--for each style."

Realistically, the only way to do this is to go into it with TWO FixSkills in your pocket: one to get to <the way that you're not currently trained for>, and one to get back to the way you are now.

But as Jaired points out, you cannot change just one facet (ramp up the Armor ranks and put on a new suit) and expect everything to fall into place. There is worlds of difference between getting hit (for tiny little amounts, all the time) and not getting hit at all; flares, if nothing else. Things Don't Work The Same. You need to change it ALL, and try it ALL, fully.

.

(This is called a 'paradigm shift', where the whole world realigns and you realize something works.
I mind me of when I was playing "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" on the NES [8-bit] back in the late 80s/early 90s.
The first time I beat the game--note that I do not say, 'the first time I played'--took me three months, pretty much 4-10 hours a day [depending on whether it was a work night or a weekend]. I was doing the 'grind': attack with the army, take the province, install a governor, increase the economy, build up the farming, hire soldiers from the peasants, repeat.
Fast forward a couple of real-time years of me doing that, and I start a new game on a Friday evening. Paradigm Shift happens: "What if I just kill off all of these weenie generals--so my opponents cannot re-hire them--and NOT garrison provinces but just sweep through looting rice and gold?"
By Sunday evening the last enemy (only one remaining of my initial 11 opponents) had two provinces left for me to conquer, and there was a barren smoking wasteland behind my Brute Squad of heavy hitters. I didn't even bother to finish the game, because it would be really freakin' boring sitting there searching for generals in every single province and hiring them and sending them out to each other province [you only won the game if you actually controlled each province, but as far as I was concerned if I had no opposition, I'd won].)

<<<I'm actually trying to point out why plate armor is such a superior choice for most rogues (once they can wear it.), and thus why light armor needs some serious improvement. >>>>

Dude, that's what he said all along. He hasn't been misleading at all, he's been offering his own experiences, quite openly, I think. He made light armor work, very well in fact. You seem to have a problem accepting that. I understand why you're making a case for change, and that's fine, but you don't have to troll the other guy in the process. THAT is misleading. Just because other people find other ways of doing things, does not invalidate your point of view. Relax.

~ Heathyr and friends

>>But as Jaired points out, you cannot change just one facet (ramp up the Armor ranks and put on a new suit) and expect everything to fall into place. There is worlds of difference between getting hit (for tiny little amounts, all the time) and not getting hit at all; flares, if nothing else. Things Don't Work The Same. You need to change it ALL, and try it ALL, fully.

There's actually very little difference. The DS differences are pretty insignificant. I don't buy the nonsense about people doing poorly in light armor because it's a different playstyle than they are used to.

The reality, is that you have the exact same playstyle, but are forced to play much more conservatively, and have less leeway than you would in plate armor. But someone in plate armor, can (and should) employ the very same tactics, and benefit from it as well. The difference is they are not FORCED to, because plate is far more forgiving. Light armor is inferior, and thus requires more use of skill, it forces you to be far more conservative, and forces you to use 120 and/or 430 (at cap level hunting grounds.).

You can't keep pointing to crystal weapons as a reason for needing every last bit of DS, because as I pointed out earlier - If you are getting attacked by crystal weapons, you are also getting attacked by CS spells, and so you need TD just as much, if not more.

>>Even split, 8/8 on plate vs. lighter armors. Looking around right now, I see two more rogues who weren't on the initial list. One in brigandine, and one in half-plate, so the even split continues.

Again, this information is ALSO misleading. Why?

First of all, I question how many of those that are wearing light armor, are archers. Archery is not even a fair comparison, since their ridiculous amount of TP savings allows them to train more skills (such as dodge and spells), and they can also snipe. Because of this (And I even mentioned it in previous posts), archers can succeed in light armor much more easily than a melee rogue.

Second, I then question how many of those are extremely post capped, and thus can afford enough skills to run around NAKED if they wanted to.

Third, I question how many of those are locksmiths, who rarely, if ever, hunt. And some might only go out in groups, when they do hunt, because of the safety it affords. I know of some rogues that only hunt when they can join a bandit hunting group, and then pick the rest of the time. Many give up on hunting entirely until they can get enough post cap XP.

>>Dude, that's what he said all along. He hasn't been misleading at all, he's been offering his own experiences, quite openly, I think. He made light armor work, very well in fact. You seem to have a problem accepting that.

The misleading part, was that he said he was worse off in plate. He also pointed out how successful he was in double leather, but this was only due to the fact that he has such a crazy amount of post cap XP, to pull it off so well.

>>I understand why you're making a case for change, and that's fine, but you don't have to troll the other guy in the process. THAT is misleading. Just because other people find other ways of doing things, does not invalidate your point of view. Relax.

I consider it trolling, when people know that something needs improvement, yet they post about how successful they have been with it. It's the type of thing I hate most about these forums. I can post about how my black double leather is not giving me enough protection, and people will argue about how it's not black but actually dark grey, and completely draw attention away from the main issue - the fact that the leather is not protecting me enough.

The very fact that people argued over the Lancelot thing, instead of discussing the actual point he was trying to make, sums up how counter-productive people are when they make those kinds of posts.