can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/13/2016 07:11 PM CDT
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Is the air lore damage before or after the crit determination?

And what is intended?

I think what was intended was for the extra air lore damage to add before the crit determination, but I am not sure its working like that.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/15/2016 09:53 AM CDT
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Okay so, this is how I understand this to work personally.

You weave another verse into your harmony, directing the sound of your voice at an ice troll.
CS: +475 - TD: +91 + CvA: -2 + d100: +42 == +424
Warding failed!
An ice troll is struck violently by the tightly focused sonic energy of your cacophonous shout!
... 91 points of damage!
An ice troll is staggered by the sonic force!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to left leg!
The ice troll is stunned!
The intensity of the sonic assault disorients an ice troll!
Sing Roundtime 3 Seconds.

The first portion (the 91 damage) is HP loss, this is what air lore directly adds to.

The second portion (the 20 damage) is the crit, it is determined completely separately from the HP damage and the air lore has no affect on it.

Tal, player of.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/15/2016 10:17 AM CDT
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"Primary damage caused is based on the warding roll and increased slightly by training in Elemental Lore, Air. The secondary critical is based on bard vs. target level and the warding roll, and may be either an impact or unbalance critical." -- Bard Spell List page

Each three (3) ranks of EL:Air are supposed to add one (+1) damage to the initial roll. Since the raw HP damage is result/4, this means that Lore is more effective with this Song than gaining extra CS (over-training spells, say), and much much cheaper.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/15/2016 10:50 PM CDT
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Thanks both.

Tal - do you have 30 air lore ranks?
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/15/2016 10:59 PM CDT
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"The secondary critical..."

OK, what you guys makes perfect sense. The problem is that the documentation says "secondary critical" ... which kind of implies a "primary" critical, in all fairness, right?

Hence I assumed there was a critical associated with the first damage cycle... (the implied primary critical). But, the initial cycle is pure damage, no critical, so the air lore has no impact on a critical determination, evidently. Dissappointing, to be sure, not much tactical advantage to increasing HP damage on a disabler...
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/16/2016 08:02 AM CDT
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No, mis-interpretation.

The spell has three effects, a primary effect, a secondary effect, and a tertiary effect.
- The primary effect is the HP damage;
- the secondary effect is a critical;
- the tertiary effect is some degree of incapacitation.

"Primary damage caused is based on the warding roll and increased slightly by training in Elemental Lore, Air. The secondary critical is based on bard vs. target level and the warding roll, and may be either an impact or unbalance critical. Tertiary effect is either a stun or a disorient effect." -- Bard List
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/16/2016 08:58 AM CDT
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I have 0 ranks of air lore at the moment.

And fwiw, there are a few bards who do find use for the spell as a damage dealer while having significant air lore. It's just kinda a niche post-cap thing.

Tal.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/16/2016 09:13 AM CDT
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Boost your Lore ranks with Enhancives, you can do 51hp damage on a 101 result.

Granted, anything at that level is likely to have whole craploads of health, but still.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/16/2016 10:41 PM CDT
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Notice how when you explained why "secondary critical" was misinterpreted, you used the words "secondary effect".

Secondary effect is what it should say, "secondary critical" is unclear.

Thanks for posting all, its finally understandable, to me.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/17/2016 08:05 AM CDT
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Or that it does "primarily damage, secondarily a crit, and possibly other debilitating effects."

The wording as it exists on the site is not as confusing as it could be, but neither is it as clearly stated as it could be. I agree that changing it would clarify a great deal.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/17/2016 11:53 PM CDT
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>Bard Spell List page

There's your problem. Go to the wiki. The play.net stuff is at best vague, and at worst outright wrong.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/18/2016 10:48 AM CDT
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>There's your problem. Go to the wiki. The play.net stuff is at best vague, and at worst outright wrong.

Only some circles have been superceded by the wiki. Play.net is no longer updated, but spells without recent changes don't have definitive statements on the wiki. For 506 you have to read a post saved on the wiki, but for 1008 you have to read play.net.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/18/2016 11:42 AM CDT
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>>For 506 you have to read a post saved on the wiki

Boo, hiss! Foul, I cry! Untrue, untrue!

https://gswiki.play.net/Celerity_(506)

(well, maybe true - not sure, but if something's missing from this article, please let me know! I happen to think it's pretty solid, ahem.)

Doug
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/18/2016 03:45 PM CDT
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Its not written by a GM. If you want to read what the official statement about the spell is, you have to read the saved post.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/19/2016 12:19 AM CDT
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>>Its not written by a GM. If you want to read what the official statement about the spell is, you have to read the saved post.

Huh. And here I thought you were going to critique that the first sentence of the announcement post by Finros wasn't duly incorporated into the wiki article. I'd recommend a side-by-side compare, should clear up a few things.

Unofficially. . .

Doug
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/19/2016 08:13 AM CDT
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Thats irrelevant. If I want to make my own interpretation of the official position, I have to read the official position. The spell descriptions on the wiki are player interpretation not the official description. They may provide useful illustrations and explanations, they may be a straight copy of the official description, but they are secondary sources and inferior to primary ones when what is in question is the content of the primary source. If I want to check the exact phrasing of what Finros wrote, reading what Finros wrote beats reading what anybody else says he wrote.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/19/2016 08:22 AM CDT
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No, I get it, I do. I'm simply suggesting that the casual usefulness of an article is not bound up by 'who' 'typed' it. And suggesting it must be so is what I'm trying to express against.

Appreciate your position, and wish you well in it.

Doug
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/22/2016 03:38 PM CDT
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Since Banshee's Wail/1008 is commonly looked down on as lacking a bit of 'Oomph' (given that single-target Disrupt/1030 costs only +2 mana more)...

...would the GMs be at all open to giving it the 'Channel' boost? +Warding margin, for open-hand casting with hardRT?
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/24/2016 11:42 AM CDT
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Ohh, I second this as is.
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Re: can someone looking into 1008 and air lore on 08/24/2016 11:45 AM CDT
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The bonus for open handed shouting can be from cupping your hand or hands near your mouth to amplify the effect of the sonic shout.
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