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Could just have the proc add duration since a 0 second cast would have been a "free" extra cast anyway. 1 second? 2 seconds?
>Since the Elemental Lore, Air benefit of a chance to flare a 0 second castRT appears to be unpopular, what other ideas would you suggest? Ideally, something useful and unique, as we're not looking to reimplement acuity or ensorcell (+AS/CS) flares here.
Returns Rapid Fire to its original form for the rest of the spell's duration. If it happens twice in a row, this effect becomes permanent.
But since that won't go anywhere...
- Double damage on next cast
- Double/triple cast
- Reduces cooldown and/or extends duration by 5 seconds
- Grants an instant 1000 experience and 1,000,000 silvers
- Makes Ophion say yes
- Makes David Whatley go back to collecting checks instead of being involved with GS again
My vote is for making Ophion say yes.
~ Methais
Returns Rapid Fire to its original form for the rest of the spell's duration. If it happens twice in a row, this effect becomes permanent.
But since that won't go anywhere...
- Double damage on next cast
- Double/triple cast
- Reduces cooldown and/or extends duration by 5 seconds
- Grants an instant 1000 experience and 1,000,000 silvers
- Makes Ophion say yes
- Makes David Whatley go back to collecting checks instead of being involved with GS again
My vote is for making Ophion say yes.
~ Methais
1. 0 mana cost for the spell would apply to any spell being cast (Offensive, Defensive, Utility), which would be nice. If that is considered imbalanced, then either free to a certain level, then reduced cost beyond that point.
2. Extended duration of Rapid Fire or reduced cooldown both would be universally useful.
3. Increased AS/CS would be useful for offensive spells, but not Defensive/Utility. I imagine people would still enjoy that as an ability.
2. Extended duration of Rapid Fire or reduced cooldown both would be universally useful.
3. Increased AS/CS would be useful for offensive spells, but not Defensive/Utility. I imagine people would still enjoy that as an ability.
I don't think extending either the duration or reducing the cooldown is sufficient to address the amount of power lost by having the cooldown plus mana penalty in the first place. If we're really going for a tangible lore benefit, a free mana double cast or high chance of an aimed bolt, similar to what post-cap ambushers and archers can achieve, would be useful and unique.
Air lore is not the right lore to be using for this, given every other offensive benefit takes fire. Either that, or we need to be able to 3x lores, because the way training is split 4 ways with such high seeds for all means that no matter what, every post-cap wizard is going to be pretty mediocre.
Air lore is not the right lore to be using for this, given every other offensive benefit takes fire. Either that, or we need to be able to 3x lores, because the way training is split 4 ways with such high seeds for all means that no matter what, every post-cap wizard is going to be pretty mediocre.
I really like Tandl's recommendations.
HOWEVER, I would prefer not having something be "On the next cast blahblahblah". Lets face it, we're going to be spam casting while rapid fire is up... I'd rather not have to adjust what I'm casting based on a proc in 1s time. I'd rather have it be retroactively applied. I can't really adjust what I'm doing in 1s! Thats why randomly getting 0 RT is tough... can't really maximize the use of that, because the command for the next cast would already need to be transmitted before the feedback from the previous cast is received. Just like I prefer procs like Acuity rather than an Ensorcell.
On Defensive spells: mana return
On Attack spells: Auto-apply 502 / 513 AS boosts
On Disabling Spells: Auto-Slow/Dispel?
On Utility spells: Randomly apply effects on other PCs in the room?
~Whirlin
HOWEVER, I would prefer not having something be "On the next cast blahblahblah". Lets face it, we're going to be spam casting while rapid fire is up... I'd rather not have to adjust what I'm casting based on a proc in 1s time. I'd rather have it be retroactively applied. I can't really adjust what I'm doing in 1s! Thats why randomly getting 0 RT is tough... can't really maximize the use of that, because the command for the next cast would already need to be transmitted before the feedback from the previous cast is received. Just like I prefer procs like Acuity rather than an Ensorcell.
On Defensive spells: mana return
On Attack spells: Auto-apply 502 / 513 AS boosts
On Disabling Spells: Auto-Slow/Dispel?
On Utility spells: Randomly apply effects on other PCs in the room?
~Whirlin
>> Double sampled d100 roll (reverse 1006).
I like this idea for channeled bolts. Still not sure I'll ever use channeled bolts but I think I would be more likely to consider using them over the current implementation.
-- Robert
Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
I like this idea for channeled bolts. Still not sure I'll ever use channeled bolts but I think I would be more likely to consider using them over the current implementation.
-- Robert
Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
What about 4 possible results based on which lores the player has trained, trained most extensively, or alternatively any lore over 50 ranks has the chance to have its flare happen.
Fire lore could provide either a double strike of the spell cast (pseudo 0 second cast without the human reaction time) or while copying ideas..it could be like 415 where it hits another target if there is one, or double strikes the target if not.
Water lore could reduce mana costs of the next spell(s) by a % or flat amount.
Air lore as others have suggested could either extend the spells duration or lower the cooldown by 1 second for each time it procs.
Earth lore could provide you DS in proportion to the spell you were casting when it triggered. If we're rapid fire bolting than we're likely intending to stay in offensive stance so more DS couldn't hurt right. Maybe spell casted x3=DS gained. Or have it scale based on the number of earth ranks. Rapid fire minor shock would be a minimal 3 DS+any scaling, but something like 906 would be 18+. It could also be that this ability doesn't begin until the rapidfire cooldown begins. One of the arguments has been how deadly that downtime is for the wizard, well this could be a way to frontload DS for that period.
Thanks for reconsidering tweaks like this btw.
Heheh first idea struck down!
Second idea is still alive! "HAH! not going to get me copper! nyah see! I gotta talk like this see!"
1. previous spell costs no mana/less mana/mana returned 1-10 depending on lore random element.
2. Duration increase 1 second to 5 seconds depending on lore random element
3. Crit weight/damage weighting to next offensive cast.
GBB
'mana-surge' flare on rapidfire would disable caster types with a 'slow' of a number of seconds equal to whats remaining on rapidfire before they can cast again. this will help with sentries or other things that can kill you with an implode if they can get a cast off while staying true to what rapidfire would offer...outcasting your target.
>Anything that relies on a "flare" is really not a reliable hunting tool. None of the other 3 pures has to rely on flares at all for either mass crowd control or instant kills.(LADYFLEURS)
Admittedly, my sorcerer does not rely on flares, but neither does he have "reliable" mass crowd control in any of the capped hunting areas. 410 (which wizards have) works some. So do 720 and 709 (709 VERY nicely but still not "reliable" especially with a large crowd), but given three or more creatures, sometimes even two depending on the exact creatures, his reaction about half the time is to move and wait for better odds. Nor do I have any instant kills. 711 is efficient when not outnumbered, 720 of limited use especially with leaving no corpse, and 719 gives me a crit kill on fetish masters about 25-50% of the time (AFTER 703, Hex curse, and possibly 709), and on soul siphons slightly more often.
Sorcerer is my only capped pure, so I can't speak to the efficacy of crowd control and instant kills of the other pures in the same situation, but for sorcerers it's far from the walk in the park you seem to think it is.
--Hal
>Sorcerer is my only capped pure, so I can't speak to the efficacy of crowd control and instant kills of the other pures in the same situation, but for sorcerers it's far from the walk in the park you seem to think it is.
I don't know what your training or gear is like, but the typical min-maxed post-cap sorcerer can achieve both. See Nindon. Your mass crowd control is called 135.
I don't know what your training or gear is like, but the typical min-maxed post-cap sorcerer can achieve both. See Nindon. Your mass crowd control is called 135.
Some thoughts from the PC. Some may have already made their way here, so excuse the double posts. Edited for content because I don't want to lose my posting privileges.
double cast makes the most sense.
extending the duration of rapid fire maybe
Definitely agree with double cast... at such low % proc rates, and proc rate growth, I don't think it'd be that overpowered. Especially when you consider that the double-attack cast wouldn't be able to proc on the final hit of the target.
I still like double cast (it's RAPID FIRE. For firing rapidly) but if they want something more unique some kind of special flare based on the element being used? Default to some generic elemental torrent of energy effect if it's a spell that wouldn't make sense on for some reason.
all do a small-mid extra crit hit potentially and cause:
earth - pelt with rocks, extra crush damage with special effect of causing target to kneel (extra damage if already prone?)
air - air blast knocks target off-balance, forces stance to offensive
fire - superheat held items (like elementals) potentially cause target to drop weapon/shield
ice / water - freeze target in place, like casting 512 (including enabling the 903 lore conversion to 1709)
lightning - rapid shock targets nervous system, prevents preping/casting spells for duration
steam - superneated steam blinds target causing AS/DS/EBP penalty
acid - similar to 705 disentegrate lore proc (reduce weapon/armor effectiveness)
if a spell that has random elemental effects or it's a non-elemental spell: assailed with raw elemental energy, maybe a random effect from above or incur RT or something
I wouldn't mind a mana leech proc that's separate from the regular mana leech cooldown.
double cast makes the most sense.
extending the duration of rapid fire maybe
Definitely agree with double cast... at such low % proc rates, and proc rate growth, I don't think it'd be that overpowered. Especially when you consider that the double-attack cast wouldn't be able to proc on the final hit of the target.
I still like double cast (it's RAPID FIRE. For firing rapidly) but if they want something more unique some kind of special flare based on the element being used? Default to some generic elemental torrent of energy effect if it's a spell that wouldn't make sense on for some reason.
all do a small-mid extra crit hit potentially and cause:
earth - pelt with rocks, extra crush damage with special effect of causing target to kneel (extra damage if already prone?)
air - air blast knocks target off-balance, forces stance to offensive
fire - superheat held items (like elementals) potentially cause target to drop weapon/shield
ice / water - freeze target in place, like casting 512 (including enabling the 903 lore conversion to 1709)
lightning - rapid shock targets nervous system, prevents preping/casting spells for duration
steam - superneated steam blinds target causing AS/DS/EBP penalty
acid - similar to 705 disentegrate lore proc (reduce weapon/armor effectiveness)
if a spell that has random elemental effects or it's a non-elemental spell: assailed with raw elemental energy, maybe a random effect from above or incur RT or something
I wouldn't mind a mana leech proc that's separate from the regular mana leech cooldown.
I really like the mana surge suggestion. (How about a flare that prevents ungrouped casters from casting due to a mana surge in the room.) That would be my #1 pick.
Since 515 can be used offensively and defensively, this would also work:
- Double/triple cast (It automatically recasts the previous spell cast at no mana cost.)
This is a good point!
Since 515 can be used offensively and defensively, this would also work:
- Double/triple cast (It automatically recasts the previous spell cast at no mana cost.)
| Air lore is not the right lore to be using for this, given every other offensive benefit takes fire. Either that, or we need to be able to 3x lores, because the way training is split 4 ways with such high seeds for all means that no matter what, every post-cap wizard is going to be pretty mediocre. |
This is a good point!
A couple of changes just rolled around to 515. Here are the details!
- The base cooldown of the spell has changed from 180 seconds to 90 seconds, and the reduction from Elemental Mana Control has changed to (0.3 * (Skill Bonus - 100)). This still results in a 30 second cooldown with 300 skill bonus in EMC, but makes the cooldown more forgiving with less skill in EMC.
- The air lore effect is no longer a chance to get 0s cast RT. It has been changed (With the same % chances) to cause the spell being cast to be channeled without incurring channeling roundtime. So, at 55 ranks of air lore, each spell cast has a 10% chance to be channeled while under the effect of Rapid Fire without hard RT. One thing to note is that when this effect occurs while casting a warding spell, the caster is treated as if they were in offensive stance for the purposes of determining the channeling bonus.
~ Konacon
- The base cooldown of the spell has changed from 180 seconds to 90 seconds, and the reduction from Elemental Mana Control has changed to (0.3 * (Skill Bonus - 100)). This still results in a 30 second cooldown with 300 skill bonus in EMC, but makes the cooldown more forgiving with less skill in EMC.
- The air lore effect is no longer a chance to get 0s cast RT. It has been changed (With the same % chances) to cause the spell being cast to be channeled without incurring channeling roundtime. So, at 55 ranks of air lore, each spell cast has a 10% chance to be channeled while under the effect of Rapid Fire without hard RT. One thing to note is that when this effect occurs while casting a warding spell, the caster is treated as if they were in offensive stance for the purposes of determining the channeling bonus.
~ Konacon
That's a pretty cool change, I can dig it.
I suggest our next move to be to grind a bit more benefit out of channeled bolts :D
Specifically less chance at hitting limbs, would be my personal preference. 46% limb-shot is a little high for the risk IMHO. Lets get that down to around 33% and I think we'll be getting somewheres.
So instead of going faster, we're going even slower with this 515 change, even when we've voiced that being slower is the cause of most of the problems here.
Instead of 19% chance of doubling my damage, firing my flares off my staff, procing the ensorcelling, I get a 19% chance to slightly increase my damage.
I think this change is a further nerf rather than a boon.
Instead of 19% chance of doubling my damage, firing my flares off my staff, procing the ensorcelling, I get a 19% chance to slightly increase my damage.
I think this change is a further nerf rather than a boon.
> I think this change is a further nerf rather than a boon.
A large majority of the people speaking up here were saying that the 0s cast RT wasn't even usable and it they wanted something else. Based on that information, simply removing the air lore completely wouldn't have even been a nerf.
This is something different. I'm genuinely sorry you don't like it.
~ Konacon
A large majority of the people speaking up here were saying that the 0s cast RT wasn't even usable and it they wanted something else. Based on that information, simply removing the air lore completely wouldn't have even been a nerf.
This is something different. I'm genuinely sorry you don't like it.
~ Konacon
| DRAFIX |
| So instead of going faster, we're going even slower with this 515 change, even when we've voiced that being slower is the cause of most of the problems here. |
| Instead of 19% chance of doubling my damage, firing my flares off my staff, procing the ensorcelling, I get a 19% chance to slightly increase my damage. |
| I think this change is a further nerf rather than a boon. |
You realize a good number of people complained that they didn't like the 0 second castRT effect? Repeatedly. We made a change based upon that feedback. I was personally moved by Methais' campaign to have the previous effect replaced because it was "useless".
GameMaster Estild
>- The base cooldown of the spell has changed from 180 seconds to 90 seconds, and the reduction from Elemental Mana Control has changed to (0.3 * (Skill Bonus - 100)). This still results in a 30 second cooldown with 300 skill bonus in EMC, but makes the cooldown more forgiving with less skill in EMC.
This is even more of a nerf. I don't understand why 29 seconds was not only not enough, you increased it to 30 seconds. Please reconsider so that it can be reduced further with sufficient post-cap training, not less.
As for the second part, this is better than 0 CT because a human can't use that, but I'm not sure it's enough to address the fact that wizards are now the only pures without the ability to ensure an instant kill with sufficient post-cap training and enhancives. Perhaps someone can run some numbers as to the efficacy of the channeled bolts.
This is even more of a nerf. I don't understand why 29 seconds was not only not enough, you increased it to 30 seconds. Please reconsider so that it can be reduced further with sufficient post-cap training, not less.
As for the second part, this is better than 0 CT because a human can't use that, but I'm not sure it's enough to address the fact that wizards are now the only pures without the ability to ensure an instant kill with sufficient post-cap training and enhancives. Perhaps someone can run some numbers as to the efficacy of the channeled bolts.
But you can see how this is a nerf?
Instead of being able to double my damage and proc my runestaff 19% of the time at double mana cost and 0 RT, I can now only slightly boost my damage (nowhere near 2x damage AND I don't get to proc my staff)
Secondly I have voiced before that all you need to do was hold down the incant 901 macro button and anyone can take advantage of this without even needing a script.
I'd much rather have 0 rt double damage/double flares/faster spellups than the very slight difference channel makes.
Instead of being able to double my damage and proc my runestaff 19% of the time at double mana cost and 0 RT, I can now only slightly boost my damage (nowhere near 2x damage AND I don't get to proc my staff)
Secondly I have voiced before that all you need to do was hold down the incant 901 macro button and anyone can take advantage of this without even needing a script.
I'd much rather have 0 rt double damage/double flares/faster spellups than the very slight difference channel makes.
