Lore	Spell	Benefit
5	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS
9	*0909	*Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [06% penalty total]
9	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance
10	0430	Elemental Barrier, 1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding
10	0503	Thurfel's Ward, 1% chance for +20 DS
10	0904	Minor Acid, AcidBurn lingering effect unlocked (lasting 2 five-second rounds)
11	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+02 DS total]
15	0507	Elemental Deflection, 5% chance reflect (w/ -20AS) bolt spells
18	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+03 DS total]
19	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [02% chance total]
20	*0518	*Cone of Elements, force element of choice @ 20 ranks
20	*0909	*Tremors, self-cast gets +1 charge [06 charges total]
21	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [02% chance total]
21	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [02% chance total]
22	*0909	*Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [07% penalty total]
25	0414	Elemental Defense III, if self-knowledge of ElemDef1/2/3, then 5% chance deflect AS/DS attack
25	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [06% chance total]
26	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+04 DS total]
30	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [03% chance total]
33	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [03% chance total]
33	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [03% chance total]
35	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [07% chance total]
35	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+05 DS total]
39	*0909	*Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [08% penalty total]
42	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [04% chance total]
45	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [06% chance total]
45	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [08% chance total]
45	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+06 DS total]
46	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [04% chance total]
46	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [04% chance total]
50	*0909	*Tremors, self-cast gets +1 charge [07 charges total]
55	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [09% chance total]
55	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [05% chance total]
56	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+07 DS total]
60	*0909	*Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [09% penalty total]
60	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [05% chance total]
60	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [05% chance total]
65	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [07% chance total]
65	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [10% chance total]
68	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+08 DS total]
69	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [06% chance total]
75	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [06% chance total]
75	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [06% chance total]
75	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [11% chance total]
81	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+09 DS total]
84	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [07% chance total]
85	*0909	*Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [10% penalty total]
85	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [08% chance total]
85	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [12% chance total]
90	*0909	*Tremors, self-cast gets +1 charge [08 charges total]
91	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [07% chance total]
91	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [07% chance total]
95	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [13% chance total]
95	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+10 DS total]
100	*0925	*Enchant Item, can enchant Flare of elemental type with pre-temper potion
100	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [08% chance total]
105	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [09% chance total]
105	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [14% chance total]
108	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [08% chance total]
108	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [08% chance total]
110	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+11 DS total]
114	*0909	*Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [11% penalty total]
115	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [15% chance total]
117	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [09% chance total]
125	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [10% chance total]
125	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [16% chance total]
126	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [09% chance total]
126	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [09% chance total]
126	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+12 DS total]
135	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [17% chance total]
135	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [10% chance total]
140	*0909	*Tremors, self-cast gets +1 charge [09 charges total]
143	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+13 DS total]
145	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [11% chance total]
145	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [10% chance total]
145	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [10% chance total]
145	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [18% chance total]
147	*0909	*Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [12% penalty total]
154	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [11% chance total]
155	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [19% chance total]
161	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+14 DS total]
165	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [12% chance total]
165	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [11% chance total]
165	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [11% chance total]
165	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [20% chance total]
174	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [12% chance total]
175	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [21% chance total]
180	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+15 DS total]
184	*0909	*Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [13% penalty total]
185	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [13% chance total]
185	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [22% chance total]
186	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [12% chance total]
186	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [12% chance total]
195	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [23% chance total]
195	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [13% chance total]
200	*0909	*Tremors, self-cast gets +1 charge [10 charges total]
200	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+16 DS total]
205	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [14% chance total]
205	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [24% chance total]
208	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [13% chance total]
208	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [13% chance total]
215	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [25% chance total]
217	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [14% chance total]
221	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+17 DS total]
225	*0909	*Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [14% penalty total]
225	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [15% chance total]
225	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [26% chance total]
231	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [14% chance total]
231	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [14% chance total]
235	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [27% chance total]
240	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [15% chance total]
243	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+18 DS total]
245	0414	Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [16% chance total]
245	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [28% chance total]
255	0430	Elemental Barrier, +1% chance for +10 ("heavy") crit padding [15% chance total]
255	0503	Thurfel's Ward, +1% chance for +20 DS [15% chance total]
255	0507	Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [29% chance total]
264	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [16% chance total]
266	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+19 DS total]
270	*0909	*Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [15% penalty total]
289	0520	Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [17% chance total]
290	0905	Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+20 DS total]
SKILL/3	*0506	*Haste, Skill/3 to reduce cooldown -1s (starts at 120s cooldown)
SKILL/4	0904	Minor Acid, AcidBurn lands at 25% + Skill/4

Lore	Spell	Benefit
1	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown
1	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 (to max of -10%)
1	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 (to max of -10%)
3	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [02% chance total]
3	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-02 total] (to max of -10%)
3	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-02 total] (to max of -10%)
6	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [03% chance total]
6	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT
6	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-03 total] (to max of -10%)
6	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-03 total] (to max of -10%)
10	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [04% chance total]
10	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure
10	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-04 total] (to max of -10%)
10	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-04 total] (to max of -10%)
10	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for 1 pulse
10	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [09s total]
13	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-02s total]
15	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [05% chance total]
15	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-05 total] (to max of -10%)
15	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-05 total] (to max of -10%)
20	*0518	*Cone of Elements, force element of choice @ 20 ranks
21	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [06% chance total]
21	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-02 total]
21	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-03s total]
21	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-06 total] (to max of -10%)
21	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-06 total] (to max of -10%)
21	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [02 pulses total]
21	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [10s total]
28	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [07% chance total]
28	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-07 total] (to max of -10%)
28	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-07 total] (to max of -10%)
30	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-04s total]
30	0904	Minor Acid, 'Evoke' unlocked to generate Major Acid (ball spell, splashy) [+2 mana cost]
33	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-03 total]
33	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [03 pulses total]
33	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [11s total]
36	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [08% chance total]
36	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-08 total] (to max of -10%)
36	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-08 total] (to max of -10%)
40	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-05s total]
45	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [09% chance total]
45	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-09 total] (to max of -10%)
45	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-09 total] (to max of -10%)
46	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-04 total]
46	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [04 pulses total]
46	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [12s total]
50	0920	Call Familiar, set anchor to EarthNode
51	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-06s total]
55	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [10% chance total]
55	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-10 total] (to max of -10%)
55	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-10 total] (to max of -10%)
60	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-05 total]
60	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [05 pulses total]
60	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [13s total]
63	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-07s total]
66	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [11% chance total]
66	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-11 total] (to max of -10%)
66	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-11 total] (to max of -10%)
75	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-06 total]
75	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [06 pulses total]
75	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [14s total]
76	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-08s total]
78	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [12% chance total]
78	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-12 total] (to max of -10%)
78	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-12 total] (to max of -10%)
90	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-09s total]
91	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [13% chance total]
91	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-07 total]
91	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-13 total] (to max of -10%)
91	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-13 total] (to max of -10%)
91	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [07 pulses total]
91	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [15s total]
100	*0925	*Enchant Item, can enchant Flare of elemental type with pre-temper potion
105	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [14% chance total]
105	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-10s total]
105	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-14 total] (to max of -10%)
105	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-14 total] (to max of -10%)
108	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-08 total]
108	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [08 pulses total]
108	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [16s total]
120	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [15% chance total]
120	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-15 total] (to max of -10%)
120	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-15 total] (to max of -10%)
121	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-11s total]
126	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-09 total]
126	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [09 pulses total]
126	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [17s total]
136	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [16% chance total]
136	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-16 total] (to max of -10%)
136	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-16 total] (to max of -10%)
138	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-12s total]
145	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-10 total]
145	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [10 pulses total]
145	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [18s total]
153	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [17% chance total]
153	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-17 total] (to max of -10%)
153	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-17 total] (to max of -10%)
156	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-13s total]
165	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-11 total]
165	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [11 pulses total]
165	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [19s total]
171	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [18% chance total]
171	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-18 total] (to max of -10%)
171	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-18 total] (to max of -10%)
175	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-14s total]
186	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-12 total]
186	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [12 pulses total]
186	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [20s total]
190	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [19% chance total]
190	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-19 total] (to max of -10%)
190	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-19 total] (to max of -10%)
195	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-15s total]
208	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-13 total]
208	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [13 pulses total]
208	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [21s total]
210	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [20% chance total]
210	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-20 total] (to max of -10%)
210	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-20 total] (to max of -10%)
216	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-16s total]
231	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [21% chance total]
231	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-14 total]
231	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-21 total] (to max of -10%)
231	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-21 total] (to max of -10%)
231	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [14 pulses total]
231	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [22s total]
238	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-17s total]
253	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [22% chance total]
253	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-22 total] (to max of -10%)
253	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-22 total] (to max of -10%)
255	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-15 total]
255	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [15 pulses total]
255	0901 / 0910	Minor & Major Shock, IF Stun Shock, duration +1s [23s total]
261	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-18s total]
276	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [23% chance total]
276	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-23 total] (to max of -10%)
276	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-23 total] (to max of -10%)
280	0403	Lock Pick Enhance, -1 point pick damage for failure [-16 total]
280	0418	Mana Focus, +10 mana regeneration per pulse, for +1 pulse [16 pulses total]
285	0404	Trap Lore Enhance, -1s RT [-19s total]
300	*0515	*Rapid Fire, 1% chance to not go on cooldown [24% chance total]
300	0407	Unlock, unsuccessful opening degrades lock by -1 [-24 total] (to max of -10%)
300	0408	Disarm, unsuccessful isarm degrades trap by -1 [-24 total] (to max of -10%)
SKILL/2	0903	Minor Water, Skill/2 % chance to soak the target [20% base + Skill/2]
SKILL/4	0416	Piercing Gaze, display chance of success based on BONUS / 4

You're making the assumption that had the lore benefit been tied directly to 520 that either 520 would have functioned in some manner that it doesn't currently, or that the lore benefit would have been different than it currently is. Given that 520 wasn't redesigned, you can't make that assumption and have to work with what you know and how things currently are.

I apologize for not being clearer in my response. I am saying that the lore effect designed for 430 could (obviously another assumption) have easily been applied to the base functionality of 520 thus MARKEDLY improving the function of the spell. The lore effect from 520, the reactive flare, could have easily been implemented to 430 thus also making it an improvement across all the classes (after all, its far more likely for the hybrid classes to get physically hit). In each case, the base design of the spell would have remained untouched but the implementation would have been arguably more useful for all classes.

Fair points on the other comments. Holding all else equal though, it would make more sense to keep it on a spell which has to be maintained less and is available to more classes. However, from a wizard perspective, does it matter? If I am dead, I will be recasting it either way. In addition, it gives us a more unique ability that not only sets the stage for future 520 redesign, but also limits the ability to available classes. We are the masters of the elements, why is this ability in a minor sphere available to all the other classes which arguably would benefit more from the reactive flare design and less from pure crit padding? Some rogues and warriors have commented the extra padding is nice, but unnecessary. Most if not all bards will train in Air, not earth.

>>In addition, it gives us a more unique ability that not only sets the stage for future 520 redesign

Or limits what 520 could be redesigned into by setting up a dependency that wizards would be unable to let go of. As an example, and nothing more so don't read into it, take the desire to have elemental immunity against your attuned element that wizards have wanted for a long time. Trade shattering damage padding + vibe flares for that? Sure. Trade shattering damage padding + random crit padding (which works on virtually everything) for that? Maybe, maybe not.

Now you're in a situation where you have portions of the mage class vying to keep both the padding effect in place and gain the new benefits of the proposed new spell - thereby weakening both. Stuff like that leads to compromised spell releases that players tend to feel missed the mark, and GMs may not be happy with either because it was a compromised design.

>>, but also limits the ability to available classes.

It's padding, non-mages have had access to it for decades.

>>We are the masters of the elements, why is this ability in a minor sphere available to all the other classes which arguably would benefit more from the reactive flare design and less from pure crit padding? Some rogues and warriors have commented the extra padding is nice, but unnecessary. Most if not all bards will train in Air, not earth.

Given the 520 lore benefit is also tied to earth, this argument doesn't go very far. Also, I'm not missing the point of your suggestion for 430 (fire/water/earth/air/lightning flares), but I'm working within the realm of what is. Right now it's a swap of vibe flares for padding to 430, and the vibe flares require earth lore training too.

Overall, I'm not arguing against your logic, or the relevance (design-wise) of having padding in 520 over 430. What I'm saying is consider the flip side of this argument. If 520 had the padding benefit it would only take one person taking a hit hard enough to shatter the skin then sticking around stunned with 0 protection to see the flaws in that design.

Currently, you're in a situation where you potentially get to have your cake and eat it to. The padding will stick around in 430 regardless of what happens to 520. You may not like sharing the ability with non-mages, but mages are in a position to benefit the most from it being in 430 via training. Also, as is, I personally feel that 520 is virtually a blank slate as far as what it can be.

Anyway, food for thought.

Viduus

>Overall, I'm not arguing against your logic, or the relevance (design-wise) of having padding in 520 over 430. What I'm saying is consider the flip side of this argument. If 520 had the padding benefit it would only take one person taking a hit hard enough to shatter the skin then sticking around stunned with 0 protection to see the flaws in that design.
>Viduus

That's what the spell does now. If you take a hard enough hit, Stone Skin shatters and you're left without any protection. I don't see the difference. The Stone Skin is gone, no damage absorbing protection.

The problem I have is when I do get hit - that initial hit - if it does not outright kill me, I'm left stunned for so long I might as well have taken a 1 hit crit kill and got it over with. If a chance for crit protection can soften the blow and/or stun duration, it makes the spell all that more viable to use.

Whether the crit protection ever moves to 520 or not, right now, the spell is, for lack of a better word, underwhelming. And frankly, it's not really worth having up and the almost next to no chance for the vibe flare to activate (unless you're a very dedicated Earth Lore trainer). The vibe flare is just, fluff, if you ask me. It's a lame (sorry, probably a poor word to use, but that's how I see it) attempt to add some spice (or functionality???) to a lackluster spell.

Seriously, what's a little vibe flare going to do to your attacker when you're already stunned or if the skin has shattered? You've already lost the damage absorption aspect of the spell and the next to non-existent vibe flares aren't going to save you from death.

-Drumpel

I also agree that 430 should have had a reactive flare, and 520 should have had the critical padding.

Just to be clear, you would have preferred the heavy padding effect be on a spell that drops when you need it the most, on big hits, rather than stick around until you die.

Is that what you're saying?

Viduus

If you're asking, would I have preferred to have to recast the spell after it had been exhausted from being used after taking a hit? The answer is yes.

Cast 520

Get hit

Critical padding reduces hit

"stone skin" is shattered because of hit, but after the critical is reduced.

Have to recast the spell

Yes.


The reactive flare in no way is helpful to me, as a Wizard. It would have been helpful to the Warriors and Rogues and Bards to some extent that can cast 430. I would much prefer to have critical padding that is lost after doing it's job, and I would be ok with having to spend another 20 mana to refresh the padding. (I would want much more than the 13% or whatever the max chance of it happening though.) Since it has to be recast, let it be 100% and let lore determine how much padding is granted.

Overall, I'm not arguing against your logic, or the relevance (design-wise) of having padding in 520 over 430. What I'm saying is consider the flip side of this argument. If 520 had the padding benefit it would only take one person taking a hit hard enough to shatter the skin then sticking around stunned with 0 protection to see the flaws in that design.

Currently, you're in a situation where you potentially get to have your cake and eat it to. The padding will stick around in 430 regardless of what happens to 520. You may not like sharing the ability with non-mages, but mages are in a position to benefit the most from it being in 430 via training. Also, as is, I personally feel that 520 is virtually a blank slate as far as what it can be.

Anyway, food for thought.

Viduus

Are you saying that the hard hit, shatters the stone skin, so no reduction in damage takes place? Or that the hard hit, shatters the stone skin, but the damage is reduced, and then you're left without protection until recast?

>For me, that's a reason why it SHOULD NOT have been applied to 430.
Rogues, Bards and even Sorcerers already have superior protection. Rogues and Bards have CM to assist with maneuvers, as well as 2x PF. Sorcerers can wear every spell in the game via 714.

Which spell provides crit padding that I can access via 714?

This isn't a complex topic really. We have three classes in this game. Pures, Semis, and Squares. Among the squares the profession wearing the thinnest armor is rogues, among the semis the profession wearing the thinnest armor is bards, among the pures the professions wearing the thinnest armor is wizards and sorcerers (I'm not counting monks because ironskin).

What is a pure's achilles heel? maneuvers. Which pure professions have maneuver defending spells? Wizards (admittedly sorta lame through blur), Clerics, and Empaths. Which profession doesn't? Sorcerers.

I'm honestly not sure if bards or rogues really need this, but you jumped the shark when you said wizards were more in need of it than sorcerers.

>The padding will stick around in 430 regardless of what happens to 520. You may not like sharing the ability with non-mages, but mages are in a position to benefit the most from it being in 430 via training. Also, as is, I personally feel that 520 is virtually a blank slate as far as what it can be.

I wonder if any of these that are complaining about sharing the benefit in 430 are those who insisted up down and sideways that it isn't anything special that the 500s are exclusive to wizards?

Did anyone respond saying if the padding from this stacked with existing armor crit padding or not?

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon

ERYKK2

I would also argue that you have some of the best disablers in the game, which means you don't need maneuver protection. Just RT lock everything with 711 and they can't touch you. Wizards don't have anything like that, and the one decent spell we do have is getting nerfed.

Immolation (519) causes significantly more RT to creatures than Pain (711), and as announced, the disabling version through EVOKE will still be available after any update to 519.

GameMaster Estild

>Btw, I know many Rogues who wear full plate, which I'm sure you're aware, is not thin armor. Bards also wear ASG15, which isn't bad protection, especially compared to the full leather Wizards are stuck in.

I agree with rogues, I don't think they need it.

Bards, because of spellsong hindrance, are often left 1 AsG lower than rangers (head protection left off). They get gypped by spell hindrance the same way wizards and sorcerers do vs clerics and empaths.

> Did anyone respond saying if the padding from this stacked with existing armor crit padding or not?

Nobody has answered it yet. It should stack with existing armor crit padding just fine.

~ Konacon

>> Bards, because of spellsong hindrance, are often left 1 AsG lower than rangers (head protection left off). They get gypped by spell hindrance the same way wizards and sorcerers do vs clerics and empaths.

Wrong thread to discuss since it's class based, but my understanding was that most Rangers don't go above Brig (AsG 12), and it's pretty standard to get AsG 15 on a bard (including mine). The 8% hindrance is honestly a pretty small price to pay. Lore concerns aside (since no bard should ever NOT train air) I actually switched from song armor to physical armor just to be able to GET reactive flares when I get hit, since I often get plinked.

Bards, because of spellsong hindrance, are often left 1 AsG lower than rangers (head protection left off). They get gypped by spell hindrance the same way wizards and sorcerers do vs clerics and empaths.

If they lost mana because of that spell hindrance I would agree with you, but spell hindrance means nothing when it costs nothing. Just keep recasting the spell until success. (I assume you mean bard circle, as they're most likely casting 400's in a sanctuary.)

ERYKK2

How does the RT compare to the spiritual spells?

210:

30s +1s per warding failure

140 Endroll = 70s

214:

13s + warding failure

140 Endroll = 53s

Pretty well considering neither 210 or 214 cause roundtime. If you'd prefer 519 to silence or bind the target instead of roundtime, I'm sure we can work that out.

GameMaster Estild

ERYKK2

What's the difference between being stuck in RT or being unable to take any actions? (214)

Don't they have the same effect in the end? (To prevent action)

The number of creatures which are immune or outright break Bind on their next action. It's impossible for creatures to do that with roundtime.

GameMaster Estild

All in all I like the effect and I can understand why it is where it is. Barrier already has some interesting interactions that most people aren't even aware of, giving it even more omph past its DS/TD effect is certainly welcome.

But that is just my opinion of course.

Tal.

*..and actually ya I do consider bind to be about equivalent to RT.

I agree with this. It's nice to have a NIR who will actually have a conversation about things, without being "snarky"

---

I appreciate the sentiment, but realistically I just mark it up to time. As a dev GM it's not a matter of if, but when, a balance issue will put me at odds with some portion of the player base. While I hope to be able to avoid such situations, or at least to handle them gracefully when they do occur, I'm a realist. I'm fully aware that tempers flare and tides turn.

Take Estild for example. Loved by millions, adored by all! Then he broke the news of nerfing the big 3 at Simucon and has been dodging torches and pitchforks every since.

Deep down, I think we all want the same thing. A challenging, interesting, and fun game that keeps you coming back for more. We won't always agree (sometimes heatedly) on how we get there, and that's ok.

As long as everyone remembers at the end of the day that if you don't kick my dog, I won't set your hair on fire... probably.

Actually that reminds me of an idea I had for some hair dye.

Viduus