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I can't seem to find any info on Naginatas.
I have some paper with various polearm DF's and AvD's, but the Naginata is not included on any of them. Nor can I find any info on the web sites.
I read somewhere the natural +20 bonus was taken away and the AvD raise by 20? Does anyone have DF's for this weapon?
Thanks.
I'm trying out a polearmin' empath....it's been fun but I wanted to check out a Naginata.
Hmmm, must be an old style naginata then? They used to be a natural 4x; e-blading them would make them 8x, so you'd have to be 20 trains to use it. I haven't ever used a naginata myself, but thought that had been fixed somewhere along the line, now that they can be gotten in magical metals? Did you get it from someone who had one lockered away?
If your naginata inspects as a modified halberd, it will still be old style natural 4x instead of new style +20 AvD (only naginatas on the true naginata weapon base were auto-converted). Weapon converters are available in the various town weapon shops if you wish to convert an old style naginata to new style.
Coase
Coase
| If your naginata inspects as a modified halberd, it will still be old style natural 4x instead of new style +20 AvD (only naginatas on the true naginata weapon base were auto-converted). Weapon converters are available in the various town weapon shops if you wish to convert an old style naginata to new style. |
| NIR Coase |
What are the pros and cons of converting? I have a couple items in my locker, weapons and shield that I have not converted yet. I'd like to get some input on this.
~Tykari
Mana is Free!
Inquiring Wizards want to know....
>What are the pros and cons of converting? I have a couple items in my locker, weapons and shield that I have not converted yet. I'd like to get some input on this.
Depends what you're converting. Shields, are a judgment call...unconverted, they all act as a medium shield, despite appearance. Converted, they'll behave as they look like they should.
As for the nagi, under the old system, the natural 4x enchant meant that it could not be enchanted more than +30 from it's "base". Under the new system, the natural 4x was removed from the AS and basically added into the AvD, so they can now be enchanted a full +50. I don't think there's any other difference...polearmers?
I can't think of any other meaningful converts at the moment, but I'm sure someone else will chime in.
And.. an empath has the chance to boneshatter someone. That's pretty violent.
Accidents happen to pacifists too, you know.
Depends what you're converting. Shields, are a judgment call...unconverted, they all act as a medium shield, despite appearance. Converted, they'll behave as they look like they should.
As for the nagi, under the old system, the natural 4x enchant meant that it could not be enchanted more than +30 from it's "base". Under the new system, the natural 4x was removed from the AS and basically added into the AvD, so they can now be enchanted a full +50. I don't think there's any other difference...polearmers?
I can't think of any other meaningful converts at the moment, but I'm sure someone else will chime in.
And.. an empath has the chance to boneshatter someone. That's pretty violent.
Accidents happen to pacifists too, you know.
>As for the nagi, under the old system, the natural 4x enchant meant that it could not be enchanted more than +30 from it's "base". Under the new system, the natural 4x was removed from the AS and basically added into the AvD, so they can now be enchanted a full +50. I don't think there's any other difference...polearmers? - SILVERPHOENIX21
This is correct. Basically, old-style non-magical metal naginatas can be brought up to +50 (30 enchant + 20 natural). The new-styles can also be brought to +50, but compared to a 10x old-style naginata, it's +70. What I don't understand, since the naginata base was introduced and it's AvD is natural, whether or not it is still considered a weapon with "special properties". My bard's been using naginatas for a long time but is frustrated he can't sing a sonic naginata since it's blacklisted, along with claidhmores and katanas. It's understandable before since compared to a regular halberd, it has a special property (+20 but ebladable). However, now, it's just a normal weapon with no special properties. Also, enchanting-wise, the system recognizes it as just a regular weapon.
The only other difference I can think of is in terms of magical metal naginatas that are sold by the erithian weaponspith and other merchants that are usually expensive. Before the change, you can get a natural 4x naginata (old-style) that can be ebladed (for 8x) for a few thousand silvers while the 4x vultite naginatas from merchants cost hundreds of thousands (maybe millions, I forget) but cannot be e-bladed. It is, therefore, not efficient to buy em. Now, it's actually somewhat reasonable to buy them since you get both the naginata and the metal properties.
-z-
This is correct. Basically, old-style non-magical metal naginatas can be brought up to +50 (30 enchant + 20 natural). The new-styles can also be brought to +50, but compared to a 10x old-style naginata, it's +70. What I don't understand, since the naginata base was introduced and it's AvD is natural, whether or not it is still considered a weapon with "special properties". My bard's been using naginatas for a long time but is frustrated he can't sing a sonic naginata since it's blacklisted, along with claidhmores and katanas. It's understandable before since compared to a regular halberd, it has a special property (+20 but ebladable). However, now, it's just a normal weapon with no special properties. Also, enchanting-wise, the system recognizes it as just a regular weapon.
The only other difference I can think of is in terms of magical metal naginatas that are sold by the erithian weaponspith and other merchants that are usually expensive. Before the change, you can get a natural 4x naginata (old-style) that can be ebladed (for 8x) for a few thousand silvers while the 4x vultite naginatas from merchants cost hundreds of thousands (maybe millions, I forget) but cannot be e-bladed. It is, therefore, not efficient to buy em. Now, it's actually somewhat reasonable to buy them since you get both the naginata and the metal properties.
-z-
Isn't a higher AvD better than AS anyway? I think that's why new naginatas are still special and more expensive.
| ~ House Sage ~~ http://twilighthall.com ~ |
| ~ http://www.playershops.com/Desorceri ~ |
>Isn't a higher AvD better than AS anyway? I think that's why new naginatas are still special and more expensive. <Desorceri>
AvD and AS are functionally identical in combat. Only benefit of moving the bonus from AS to AvD is for enchanting purposes.
So compared to a halberd, a nagi has the potential to become "14x".
And.. an empath has the chance to boneshatter someone. That's pretty violent.
Accidents happen to pacifists too, you know.
AvD and AS are functionally identical in combat. Only benefit of moving the bonus from AS to AvD is for enchanting purposes.
So compared to a halberd, a nagi has the potential to become "14x".
And.. an empath has the chance to boneshatter someone. That's pretty violent.
Accidents happen to pacifists too, you know.
>AvD and AS are functionally identical in combat.
I can't see this as true. AvD represents a weapon's potential to damage despite certain armors and I think it increases the damage-output. A dagger would have poor AvD against plate, but better AvD against robes. So will all other factors similar (enchant, AS, DS) and just a different AvD, the dagger will cause more damage to a robe-wearer.
I can't see this as true. AvD represents a weapon's potential to damage despite certain armors and I think it increases the damage-output. A dagger would have poor AvD against plate, but better AvD against robes. So will all other factors similar (enchant, AS, DS) and just a different AvD, the dagger will cause more damage to a robe-wearer.
| ~ House Sage ~~ http://twilighthall.com ~ |
| ~ http://www.playershops.com/Desorceri ~ |
>Isn't a higher AvD better than AS anyway? I think that's why new naginatas are still special and more expensive. -SDEMASK
That's true. Better AvD is better than AS. But what I'm saying is that the naginata is now a weapon base, therefore the AvD for naginatas is natural. I do believe it's a special weapon hence I love them. But I don't think it has special, natural properties in line with claidhmores and katanas. Consider this, a lance has a higher AvD than a spear, but that does not make it a weapon with special properties. It's the same with naginatas, it has a higher AvD than most weapons, but it no longer has the special properties it once had (+20 AS and ebladable). Of course, it's my point of view, a GM could very well pop in and say that even though naginatas are a new base, they're still considered modified halberds internally so the extra 20 AvD from halberds counts as special properties. But right now, as I understand it, they are no longer halberds and are true naginatas.
And just for clarification, naginata prices did not change after the update to the weapon. The prices were the same for naginatas before and after the weapon base was introduced. I don't have a problem with the current pricing relative to the current weapon properties. But the pricing before the changes were, well, wonky. =)
-z-
That's true. Better AvD is better than AS. But what I'm saying is that the naginata is now a weapon base, therefore the AvD for naginatas is natural. I do believe it's a special weapon hence I love them. But I don't think it has special, natural properties in line with claidhmores and katanas. Consider this, a lance has a higher AvD than a spear, but that does not make it a weapon with special properties. It's the same with naginatas, it has a higher AvD than most weapons, but it no longer has the special properties it once had (+20 AS and ebladable). Of course, it's my point of view, a GM could very well pop in and say that even though naginatas are a new base, they're still considered modified halberds internally so the extra 20 AvD from halberds counts as special properties. But right now, as I understand it, they are no longer halberds and are true naginatas.
And just for clarification, naginata prices did not change after the update to the weapon. The prices were the same for naginatas before and after the weapon base was introduced. I don't have a problem with the current pricing relative to the current weapon properties. But the pricing before the changes were, well, wonky. =)
-z-
>I can't see this as true.
It's true.
Old Naginata
AS: +264 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +31 = +149
New Naginata
AS: +244 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +31 = +149
That's the difference between the two. This #'s are made up by the way, just used for example.
Zephore O'Dane - Dunespire@aol.com
Carabele's Lore Benefits Summation Chart at...
http://carabele.com/odds/LoreBenefits.htm
Krakiipedia at...
http://www.krakiipedia.org
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository at...
http://www.nilandia.com
It's true.
Old Naginata
AS: +264 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +31 = +149
New Naginata
AS: +244 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +31 = +149
That's the difference between the two. This #'s are made up by the way, just used for example.
Zephore O'Dane - Dunespire@aol.com
Carabele's Lore Benefits Summation Chart at...
http://carabele.com/odds/LoreBenefits.htm
Krakiipedia at...
http://www.krakiipedia.org
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository at...
http://www.nilandia.com
>I can't see this as true. AvD represents a weapon's potential to damage despite certain armors and I think it increases the damage-output. A dagger would have poor AvD against plate, but better AvD against robes. So will all other factors similar (enchant, AS, DS) and just a different AvD, the dagger will cause more damage to a robe-wearer.
Well you kinda have the idea....
AvD will raise damage as a function of teh DF only, because it raises the endroll result by an equivalent amount vs a lower AvD. AS serves the exact same purpose.
AvD does not influence DF or vice versa, though they tend to move in parallel thorughout the armors, they don't always do this though.
So if your choice is a dagger with +20AS or a dagger with +20 AvD, they are mechanically identical, but the dagger with +20AvD would be able to be brought up easily with enchanting to ANOTHER +20(To the AS this time) enchanting it 4x thereby making it superior in the long run.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
Well you kinda have the idea....
AvD will raise damage as a function of teh DF only, because it raises the endroll result by an equivalent amount vs a lower AvD. AS serves the exact same purpose.
AvD does not influence DF or vice versa, though they tend to move in parallel thorughout the armors, they don't always do this though.
So if your choice is a dagger with +20AS or a dagger with +20 AvD, they are mechanically identical, but the dagger with +20AvD would be able to be brought up easily with enchanting to ANOTHER +20(To the AS this time) enchanting it 4x thereby making it superior in the long run.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
>My 16 train empath bought the naginata from the backroom in the Landing...plain ol' naginata, cost 3k or so.
>What do I own, an 8x naginata?
That's interesting. Did you inspect it? If it's a modified halberd, then it's old-style and is 8x after an eblade. Toss it in the conversion chamber and you should be able to hold it. If it was also old-style, maybe you should bug it too. Tykel shouldn't be selling old-style naginatas.
-z-
>What do I own, an 8x naginata?
That's interesting. Did you inspect it? If it's a modified halberd, then it's old-style and is 8x after an eblade. Toss it in the conversion chamber and you should be able to hold it. If it was also old-style, maybe you should bug it too. Tykel shouldn't be selling old-style naginatas.
-z-
Okay I think I understand now.
So say for instance...
Old Naginata
AS: +264 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +31 = +149
New Naginata
AS: +244 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +31 = +149
In this case, the output damage would be the same right?
Old Naginata
AS: +264 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +31 = +149
New Naginata
AS: +264 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +11 = +149
This would be the same damage too right?
So say for instance...
Old Naginata
AS: +264 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +31 = +149
New Naginata
AS: +244 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +31 = +149
In this case, the output damage would be the same right?
Old Naginata
AS: +264 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +31 = +149
New Naginata
AS: +264 vs DS: +170 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +11 = +149
This would be the same damage too right?
| ~ House Sage ~~ http://twilighthall.com ~ |
| ~ http://www.playershops.com/Desorceri ~ |
>This would be the same damage too right?
Yes, assuming the same location was hit, cit randimization and all that jazz are identical. At least as far as I understand the system anyways.
Mark or Anathemus' player are more well versed in such things.
Zephore O'Dane - Dunespire@aol.com
Carabele's Lore Benefits Summation Chart at...
http://carabele.com/odds/LoreBenefits.htm
Krakiipedia at...
http://www.krakiipedia.org
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository at...
http://www.nilandia.com
Yes, assuming the same location was hit, cit randimization and all that jazz are identical. At least as far as I understand the system anyways.
Mark or Anathemus' player are more well versed in such things.
Zephore O'Dane - Dunespire@aol.com
Carabele's Lore Benefits Summation Chart at...
http://carabele.com/odds/LoreBenefits.htm
Krakiipedia at...
http://www.krakiipedia.org
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository at...
http://www.nilandia.com
>I can't see this as true. AvD represents a weapon's potential to damage despite certain armors and I think it increases the damage-output. A dagger would have poor AvD against plate, but better AvD against robes. So will all other factors similar (enchant, AS, DS) and just a different AvD, the dagger will cause more damage to a robe-wearer. <Deso>
You're right that they represent different things (attacker's skill with the weapon is AS, the weapon's natural advantage compared to the armor type is AvD), but functionally they are identical. AvD has zero effect on DF.
In the attack formula, however, there's absolutely no difference between having an AS of 300 with an AvD of 0, and having an AS of 0 and an AvD of 300.
And.. an empath has the chance to boneshatter someone. That's pretty violent.
Accidents happen to pacifists too, you know.
You're right that they represent different things (attacker's skill with the weapon is AS, the weapon's natural advantage compared to the armor type is AvD), but functionally they are identical. AvD has zero effect on DF.
In the attack formula, however, there's absolutely no difference between having an AS of 300 with an AvD of 0, and having an AS of 0 and an AvD of 300.
And.. an empath has the chance to boneshatter someone. That's pretty violent.
Accidents happen to pacifists too, you know.
>Isn't AS affected by stance, health, and spirit while AvD is just affected by the target's armor? Just throwing this in there. <ODINSON>
Hey, you're right. Ok, so it IS slightly better to be using the newstyle, I guess.
>Deso
Yes, you're correct in both of those hypotheticals. Damage output would be the same. Raw damage, anyway; crit would obviously depend upon WHERE it landed on the opponent.
~ Lumi, nottaPolearmer
And.. an empath has the chance to boneshatter someone. That's pretty violent.
Accidents happen to pacifists too, you know.
Hey, you're right. Ok, so it IS slightly better to be using the newstyle, I guess.
>Deso
Yes, you're correct in both of those hypotheticals. Damage output would be the same. Raw damage, anyway; crit would obviously depend upon WHERE it landed on the opponent.
~ Lumi, nottaPolearmer
And.. an empath has the chance to boneshatter someone. That's pretty violent.
Accidents happen to pacifists too, you know.
<<Isn't AS affected by stance, health, and spirit while AvD is just affected by the target's armor? Just throwing this in there.>>
I think it would depend on how the AS pentaly is calculated. In a logical world (which, of course, GS is not) health & spirit penalties wouldn't affect the nature of the weapon and would be calculated independently. The same argument could probably be made for stance. If so, wouldn't the transitive theory apply here? If A = B and B = C then A = C?
<<"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." - Isaac Hayes>>
So Chef invented calculus, eh? ;)
Evan
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of." - Clarence Darrow
I think it would depend on how the AS pentaly is calculated. In a logical world (which, of course, GS is not) health & spirit penalties wouldn't affect the nature of the weapon and would be calculated independently. The same argument could probably be made for stance. If so, wouldn't the transitive theory apply here? If A = B and B = C then A = C?
<<"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." - Isaac Hayes>>
So Chef invented calculus, eh? ;)
Evan
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of." - Clarence Darrow
Here's what I get when I order:
order
Catalog
1. a cudgel 27. a well-balanced foil
2. a dagger 28. a wire-hilted mithril foil
3. a short sword 29. a jade-pommeled imflass foil
4. a scimitar 30. a double-edged kris
5. a twohanded sword 31. a jade-hilted mithril kris
6. a rapier 32. a serrated imflass kris
7. a broadsword 33. a blackened mithril sapara
8. a handaxe 34. a jade-hilted mithril cutlass
9. a mace 35. a jade-hilted imflass sabre
10. a war hammer 36. a gold-chased greatsword
11. a quarter staff 37. a jagged-edged mithril greatsword
12. a halberd 38. a jade-hilted imflass greatsword
13. a crystal-set rosewood runestaff 39. a jade-pommeled imflass spatha
14. a twisted black rowan runestaff 40. a jade-pommeled talon sword
15. a wide-grained deringo runestaff 41. a jade-pommeled mithril talon sword
16. a ruby-tipped mossbark runestaff 42. an ash-hafted moon axe
17. a gold-capped orase runestaff 43. an ash-hafted mithril moon axe
18. a fantail dagger 44. a well-balanced imflass moon axe
19. an imflass fantail dagger 45. a steel-spiked bulawa
20. a bejeweled mithril fantail dagger 46. a jade-inlaid mithril bulawa
21. a steel banded shillelagh 47. an ash-hafted imflass bulawa
22. a modwir-hafted shillelagh 48. a jagged-edged scythe
23. a spiked shillelagh 49. an ebon-hafted mithril scythe
24. a jade-hilted epee 50. an ash-hafted imflass scythe
25. a jade-hilted mithril epee 51. a dual-bladed battle axe
26. a jade-tipped imflass epee 52. a pair of plates
Backroom Catalog
53. a claidhmore 54. a naginata
You can APPRAISE, INSPECT or DESCRIBE any item by number, ORDER by number to get pricing and customization options, BUY to purchase, or ORDER HELP for more info.
> order 54
You ask about the price of a naginata.
Putting on a charming smile, you engage Tykel Rone in a negotiation on the price. "You will drive me to ruin!" he exclaims upon hearing your first offer, but he eventually comes down some on his price, to 3000 silvers.
Tykel Rone says, "Since you're a citizen of this town, I'll drop the price to 2700."
You may CUSTOMIZE your selection, ORDER something else, or BUY this item.
> customize
This item is available in the following colors or finishes:
1. white 8. cyan 15. lavender
2. grey 9. green 16. golden
3. black 10. yellow 17. silvery
4. dark 11. brown 18. chrome
5. red 12. tan 19. brass
6. blue 13. orange 20. crimson
7. azure 14. purple
This item is available in the following materials or features:
None.
No magical metals listed.
order
Catalog
1. a cudgel 27. a well-balanced foil
2. a dagger 28. a wire-hilted mithril foil
3. a short sword 29. a jade-pommeled imflass foil
4. a scimitar 30. a double-edged kris
5. a twohanded sword 31. a jade-hilted mithril kris
6. a rapier 32. a serrated imflass kris
7. a broadsword 33. a blackened mithril sapara
8. a handaxe 34. a jade-hilted mithril cutlass
9. a mace 35. a jade-hilted imflass sabre
10. a war hammer 36. a gold-chased greatsword
11. a quarter staff 37. a jagged-edged mithril greatsword
12. a halberd 38. a jade-hilted imflass greatsword
13. a crystal-set rosewood runestaff 39. a jade-pommeled imflass spatha
14. a twisted black rowan runestaff 40. a jade-pommeled talon sword
15. a wide-grained deringo runestaff 41. a jade-pommeled mithril talon sword
16. a ruby-tipped mossbark runestaff 42. an ash-hafted moon axe
17. a gold-capped orase runestaff 43. an ash-hafted mithril moon axe
18. a fantail dagger 44. a well-balanced imflass moon axe
19. an imflass fantail dagger 45. a steel-spiked bulawa
20. a bejeweled mithril fantail dagger 46. a jade-inlaid mithril bulawa
21. a steel banded shillelagh 47. an ash-hafted imflass bulawa
22. a modwir-hafted shillelagh 48. a jagged-edged scythe
23. a spiked shillelagh 49. an ebon-hafted mithril scythe
24. a jade-hilted epee 50. an ash-hafted imflass scythe
25. a jade-hilted mithril epee 51. a dual-bladed battle axe
26. a jade-tipped imflass epee 52. a pair of plates
Backroom Catalog
53. a claidhmore 54. a naginata
You can APPRAISE, INSPECT or DESCRIBE any item by number, ORDER by number to get pricing and customization options, BUY to purchase, or ORDER HELP for more info.
> order 54
You ask about the price of a naginata.
Putting on a charming smile, you engage Tykel Rone in a negotiation on the price. "You will drive me to ruin!" he exclaims upon hearing your first offer, but he eventually comes down some on his price, to 3000 silvers.
Tykel Rone says, "Since you're a citizen of this town, I'll drop the price to 2700."
You may CUSTOMIZE your selection, ORDER something else, or BUY this item.
> customize
This item is available in the following colors or finishes:
1. white 8. cyan 15. lavender
2. grey 9. green 16. golden
3. black 10. yellow 17. silvery
4. dark 11. brown 18. chrome
5. red 12. tan 19. brass
6. blue 13. orange 20. crimson
7. azure 14. purple
This item is available in the following materials or features:
None.
No magical metals listed.
>Buggery; I was afraid of that. Ok, where exactly is this smith located? Between Zul and the EN?
I think it's in Tsoran's Maps. Whistler's Pass. But yeah, it's between Zul and the Elven City of Illistim.
>I vaguely remember that being a puzzle too. I don't think I figured out the right question to ask the fellow.
>Is that still the case or did I just miss something obvious?
There's still a little puzzle. Just listen carefully to what he says. He's semi-retired and only does work for his friends.
-z-
I think it's in Tsoran's Maps. Whistler's Pass. But yeah, it's between Zul and the Elven City of Illistim.
>I vaguely remember that being a puzzle too. I don't think I figured out the right question to ask the fellow.
>Is that still the case or did I just miss something obvious?
There's still a little puzzle. Just listen carefully to what he says. He's semi-retired and only does work for his friends.
-z-
