new bard on 08/23/2011 05:50 PM CDT
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I just started a new bard and I know nothing about them. Whats this about mastering 2 handed instruments and casting? Here is where I am at:

Half-elf
At level 0
State valueBonus
STR626
CON626
DEX6211
AGL5512
DIS8211
AUR626
LOG7311
INT7010
WIS7010
INF6211
42 ptp, 47 mtp
at level 15 he will have:
Armor Use16(1.0X)
Brawling34(2.1X)
Two Weapon Combat32(2.0X)
Physical Fitness16(1.0X)
Perception16(1.0X)
Harness Power15(0.9X)
Mental Mana Control16(1.0X)
Spell Research15(0.9X)
Bard15(0.9X)
Elemental Lore16(1.0X)
Air16(1.0X)
Mental Lore16(1.0X)
Manipulation16(1.0X)

I haven't decided on a society yet but TWC brawler so far is working well, fu might be fun but I haven't yet had anyone in GoS so might go that route. I am going to focus on bard spells because I usually hunt with an empath who provides me with defensive spells. I guess I should pick up some dodge, cm, moc at some point, but how does this look so far? Viable or no? I can stop perception and mana control at around 30 ranks and pick up what I am lacking right?
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Re: new bard on 08/23/2011 06:17 PM CDT
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I am going to burst a couple bubbles here.

One, no dodge means low DS, especially without a shield. No CM means a moderately lower AS than you could muster, but more importantly it leaves you vulnerable to CM based maneuvers and you won't have any method of disabling except 1005/1002. While effective, they will eat up your mana early on.

I like the choice to brawl. Being a brawler there is almost no reason not to go Voln because voln fu is a potent tool for brawlers. Not saying you have to go that route but it is worth doing. If you are running for level 30 to get sonic disruption you can use a fixskill to go from brawler to pure bard. Early on you look pretty handicapped to me, lacking the CM and dodge. TWC eats up a lot of training points but is fun. I suggest cutting your perception in half to gain more mental points. I suggest not running up just bardsongs because then you are more likely to try to use too many at early levels and run into Song renewal problems and that's never fun. 401/406 are basic defensive spells that you should have by level 20, IMO. Additionally, you will want 425/430 eventually. At level 16 I would have 406/1010. The easiest way to add is to subtract the TWC from the training plan and see what you can work back into it. Go .5x CM and .75x dodge then start adding back in a little TWC and see where it goes. If you cannot at least 1.5x TWC then you will begin to miss a lot of offhand swings.

Optionally, you can stick to your original plan and run it as a test. If you are happy with your DS/AS and maneuver defenses then just continue on until you see a need to change. Having 1x MMC, 1x air lore and 1x manipulation lore is eating way into your mental training points, too.

~Galenok
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Re: new bard on 08/24/2011 08:58 AM CDT
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Brawling is a good choice for a Sonic Weapon/1012 Bard because they're all fast weapons, which means you get extra chances (per minute of combat) at flares & double-flares.

First point: you do know that you canNOT use two Sonic Weapon Songs/1012 at the same time, right? You can use one, certainly, but the other weapon must be an actual, physical weapon. Also, the Sonic Weapon should be in your left hand [Two Weapon pretty much requires that the lighter weapon be in the off-hand]... but (because of the flares and your EL:Air ranks) it is probably the better weapon, so you really want it in the right hand to do its thing.

Are you really truly honestly committed to the Two-Weapon path, or just doing it for a lark? If you're not a die-hard dyed-in-the-wool Two-Weapon fanatic... drop that, grab Shield Use + Dodge instead, and be a lot more alive.
(Two-Weapon doubled is 9p/6m, Shield Use singled is 5p/0m and Dodge singled is 6p/6m == 11p/6m combined. You can almost do fully singled in both protective skills for the same price as doubled in the second weapon.)

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You can make up some of the AS lack by switching from ML:Manipulation (which will help your Vibration Chant/1002 and Purification Song/1004... but your CS probably isn't all that high yet [for the first] and most of the gems you'll find are probably cheap to begin with [for the second] so you don't really gain all that much) and instead train in ML:Telepathy.
10 ranks is +4 AS
15 ranks is +5 AS
21 ranks is +6 AS
And those bonuses are to your entire group not just to yourself, like CM is. So at 13th level/15 trainings, if you're singled in CM you would have +7AS but singled in Lore would give +5 AS. You're only -2 behind, and groups will love to have you along.

Generally speaking, I would not advise Bards to even start training in ML:Manipulation until mid-to-late 20s, at about the same time they start migrating any Telepathy ranks over to make certain that they have 15 when they hit 30th level and can cast Disruption. (Obviously if you burn a FixSkills to do it all in one lump, it's not a big deal at all.) Telepathy will serve you MUCH better, just because of the mana savings on medley renewal durations.

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Also, some of the maneuver problems can be offset by using Sonic Armor Song/1014, due to how much lighter it is than normal.

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I'm not trying to say that it will be simple and easy... but if you're hunting mostly creatures that have no maneuvers (pure AS/DS equations to worry about) and are not in areas that have checks (not Icemule & environs), you can possibly make it work.

You can also make it work a lot more easily, by changing your plan slightly. :)
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Re: new bard on 08/24/2011 03:13 PM CDT
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Ok maybe this will work better, like I said I know nothing about bards. I might stay TWC for a few more levels just to make it faster to kill things early on but switch it up before my 30 days is up. Here is a revised plan at 15
Armor Use 16 (1.0X)
Shield Use 16 (1.0X)
Brawling 34 (2.1X)
Combat Maneuvers 8 (0.5X)
Physical Fitness 16 (1.0X)
Dodging 12 (0.8X)
Climbing 5 (0.3X)
Swimming 5 (0.3X)
Perception 16 (1.0X)
Harness Power 15 (0.9X)
Mental Mana Control 16 (1.0X)
Spell Research 15 (0.9X)
Minor Elemental 5 (0.3X)
Bard 10 (0.6X)
Elemental Lore 12 (0.8X)
Air 12 (0.8X)
Mental Lore 11 (0.7X)
Manipulation
Telepathy 11 (0.7X)


Should I 1x MMC or drop a little for more lores? I have no idea what I'm doing haha
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Re: new bard on 08/24/2011 03:17 PM CDT
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You can do whichever you prefer. The goal should probably be 30 ranks. 24 ranks is a cutoff but 30 ranks adds 1 mana per pulse over 24 ranks. I think I got to 30 ranks and stopped but didn't finish those until in my 80's. Of course MMC wasn't really even around til I was about level 50. There is no rush but I would say by the time you can cast 1040 you should have 30 ranks. By the time you can cast 1013, I would have no less that 10 ranks and possibly more.

~Galenok
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Re: new bard on 08/25/2011 06:47 PM CDT
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Here's a few tweeks I'd suggest making to your plan. First I'd cut the following things down to 0.5x: Perception, Mental Mana Control, EL: Air, and ML: Telepathy. With a shield, your Dodge only needs to be 0.75x. With the points from this, see if you can get CM up to a full 1x. CM training gives you both more AS (1 every other rank) and access to Combat Maneuvers, which are always helpful. As for MoC, if you are staying with brawling, you definitely want to get to 30/35 ranks at higher level. Brawling weapons tend to be fast, but do not deal heavy damage. So being able to Focus Mstrike a target for two attacks will be quite helpful, especially once you get to the point where you can use Song of Tonis reliably. At higher levels you will likely consider going even high with MOC so you can Triple Strike a target.

The reason for cutting back those skills is that Perception is nice to have but 1x is not necessary at lower levels. The same goes for MMC, especially if you don't use 1013 much. The main way it impacts bards is when they get 1040, which is a long way down the road. EL:A and ML:T are both great to have, and I would work on expanding those towards 1x as TPs become available. I'd focus on ML:T first, at it more beneficial in extending renewal times and helping to boost the AS bonus of Kai's Song. EL:A is more helpful later once you start using Sonic gear more often, and even later once you get Tonis.

The advise I have for all bards is to focus on their core training (In your case 2x Brawling, 1x Shield, CM, Armor, Spells, HP, PF, 0.75x Dodge) and then expand from there. If you've got spare TPs then go for the extras. Plus as your level and gain more TPs you can expand even more.

-Kilthal


"He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone."

"For all that this may cause Hell to freeze over, I agree with Kilthal." -Siwas
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