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Hey all,
I'm working on creating my first bard and would appreciate any assistance ya'll could provide. I've messed around with bards in the past, but never really got past the "this looks kinda cool" stage. I rolled up a new little bard and could definitely use some assistance before I go too far along the wrong path and it's difficult to make the changes necessary. I left the default stats for now, as they seem to work for the time being and I believe I can change them at a later time if needed (although painfully so).
In terms of training though, what is the best path to pursue? I hope to (eventually) be using all my sonic gear (if that is the best path) and crushing the skulls of creatures left and right.
Any insight on stats or general tips and tricks would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
-X
[Note that all of this is from the standpoint of someone who trained ONLY in Songs; if you concentrate on the Minor Elemental list then your Songs will be even less powerful/useful than this makes them sound like.]
You will be a weapon-swinger until, most likely, 30th level; beyond that, if you want, you can switch to a more spell-casting orientation (what I call the SorcerBard, since you're using warding-based spells).
Until you know a gob of Songs, you're better off using vultite weapon/shield and +20 armor because it's higher bonus and inexpensive. My recollection is that you can now sling the Sonic Shields (for a brief period) to help in looting dead critters, so that's a nice improvement (no more stop/re-start the Song).
Lullabye/1005 is totally your friend from 5th level onward. Snoozing creatures are so much meat on the table, particularly if you swing a big weapon (2Hand or Pole Arm). Note that using one of those means that you do not need to worry about slinging your Sonic Shield, or--in the future--even including it in your medley [== mana savings]. High INFluence stat bonus and number of Songs known will make your Lullabye most effective; high INFluence will also make your medley last longer, so more mana available in the field..
Given that Song of Tonis/1035 is in your future, you might consider using small weapons instead (or plan to reallocate with a FixSkills) and play a faster race so that you have 1s weapon RTs to look forward to.
At lower levels, you gain more weapon AS more quickly (and more cheaply, from a training point perspective) by picking up ranks of ML:Telepathy than you do by learning more Songs. Note that this will also make your medley last longer (+2s/rank), again meaning you will have more mana available while in the field.
Probably from 10th to about 25th level you will be singing Song of Valor/1010, Kai's Song/1007, and Fortitude/1003; low-to-mid 20s is when you'll start adding Song of Luck/1006 (more maneuvers to worry about) and mid-to-high 20s is when Sonic Weapon starts paying off (from an Enchant point of view). If you've also picked up ranks of EL:Air then your flaring will be more likely, as well.
Banshee's Wail/1008 is a useful additional attack tool, but since Lullabye does not use the formal CS/TD warding system it's probably a better way to get the thing disabled. Quickly-recovering creatures (or just "low RT critters") with poor TD are great targets for Banshee's Wail, though, because of the repetitive nausea keeping them down.
Disruption/1030 is, plain and simple, THE best attack spell in the game. You will have fifteen (15) ranks of ML:Manipulation when you start using it, so that you have the option to single-target it rather than mass-cast. The more ranks of ML:Manipulation you have, the more damage you inflict (up to a cap of 60 ranks/+36 damage for mass/cast, or 75 ranks/+36 damage for single-target; note that that should be thought of as "15 to single target + 60 for max damage") without the necessity of holding an instrument in-hand.
- The corollary to that, of course, is that you can save a ton of training points by mastering an instrument, but you have to have a training path that will let you use it in order to benefit (i.e. train in Brawling, mastered 2Hand instrument in the left hand with an empty right hand) whereas ranks of Lore always work (even when you have weapon + shield in-hand).
You will be a weapon-swinger until, most likely, 30th level; beyond that, if you want, you can switch to a more spell-casting orientation (what I call the SorcerBard, since you're using warding-based spells).
Until you know a gob of Songs, you're better off using vultite weapon/shield and +20 armor because it's higher bonus and inexpensive. My recollection is that you can now sling the Sonic Shields (for a brief period) to help in looting dead critters, so that's a nice improvement (no more stop/re-start the Song).
Lullabye/1005 is totally your friend from 5th level onward. Snoozing creatures are so much meat on the table, particularly if you swing a big weapon (2Hand or Pole Arm). Note that using one of those means that you do not need to worry about slinging your Sonic Shield, or--in the future--even including it in your medley [== mana savings]. High INFluence stat bonus and number of Songs known will make your Lullabye most effective; high INFluence will also make your medley last longer, so more mana available in the field..
Given that Song of Tonis/1035 is in your future, you might consider using small weapons instead (or plan to reallocate with a FixSkills) and play a faster race so that you have 1s weapon RTs to look forward to.
At lower levels, you gain more weapon AS more quickly (and more cheaply, from a training point perspective) by picking up ranks of ML:Telepathy than you do by learning more Songs. Note that this will also make your medley last longer (+2s/rank), again meaning you will have more mana available while in the field.
Probably from 10th to about 25th level you will be singing Song of Valor/1010, Kai's Song/1007, and Fortitude/1003; low-to-mid 20s is when you'll start adding Song of Luck/1006 (more maneuvers to worry about) and mid-to-high 20s is when Sonic Weapon starts paying off (from an Enchant point of view). If you've also picked up ranks of EL:Air then your flaring will be more likely, as well.
Banshee's Wail/1008 is a useful additional attack tool, but since Lullabye does not use the formal CS/TD warding system it's probably a better way to get the thing disabled. Quickly-recovering creatures (or just "low RT critters") with poor TD are great targets for Banshee's Wail, though, because of the repetitive nausea keeping them down.
Disruption/1030 is, plain and simple, THE best attack spell in the game. You will have fifteen (15) ranks of ML:Manipulation when you start using it, so that you have the option to single-target it rather than mass-cast. The more ranks of ML:Manipulation you have, the more damage you inflict (up to a cap of 60 ranks/+36 damage for mass/cast, or 75 ranks/+36 damage for single-target; note that that should be thought of as "15 to single target + 60 for max damage") without the necessity of holding an instrument in-hand.
- The corollary to that, of course, is that you can save a ton of training points by mastering an instrument, but you have to have a training path that will let you use it in order to benefit (i.e. train in Brawling, mastered 2Hand instrument in the left hand with an empty right hand) whereas ranks of Lore always work (even when you have weapon + shield in-hand).
Wow, thanks for all of the input, that is a huge benefit. I guess my biggest concern currently is when should I start trying to add some ML ranks in instead of training for spells?
The only elemental spell I've trained is 401 for the defensive boost, but have been training strictly bard songs since.
Thanks again!
-X
The only elemental spell I've trained is 401 for the defensive boost, but have been training strictly bard songs since.
Thanks again!
-X
I knew from the start that I was going to be spell-heavy (specifically, Songs) and that the Minor Elemental list was pretty freely available from passers-by. (Although I engineered the passer-by myself, by logging in the Wizard on the other account.) So from scratch, I was over-trained (level +2) in Songs.
So I went with fully singled in both kinds of Lore to begin with:
- EL:Air from the start (doesn't really do much for you until you get 1008/Banshee's Wail, or in the late teens (if you really can't resist the flares) for Sonic Weapon); and
- ML:Telepathy until the mid-20s.
The Telepathy will extend your medley and save you a ton of mana, and let me tell you if you don't think there's a difference between a medley duration of 3:20 and (at 20th level, with 22 ranks/44s of Telepathy) of 4:04, it is a huge difference. :)
At 3:20 duration [200 seconds], you renew eighteen (18) times in an hour.
At 4:04 duration [244 seconds], you renew just under fifteen (15) times in an hour.
Now, when your medley is only costing you a handful of mana, it's not so bad... when your renewal is 26 (or more; I think the last time I played melee my Bard's medley was in the mid-30s to renew) every little bit helps. Granted, your renewal will get longer--I think mine is up in the 7:30-ish range/450s, or renew only eight (8) times per hour--but again, if someone else does not have those Lore ranks and they're renewing 10 times in an hour, right there I'm saving
50+ mana
== one pulse on a Node
== 2+ additional casts of Disruption/1030 (and also my Disruption does not have to be re-started, which has a higher mana cost, as often)
== 10 additional Lullabye/1005
== 6 extra Banshee's Wail/1008
Lots and lots of really good reasons to have your medley renewal be as long as possible. I took an Elf [high racial bonus] with a 90+ CHArisma (in GS3; renamed to INFluence in GS4) when most Bards were tanking the stat because it grew so fast. Lullabye was essentially totally reliable after about ninth (9th) level or so. But that high CHArisma/INFluence added more than a minute to my medley duration, so instead of (for example) a 3:00 duration/20 renewals per hour I had a 4:00 duration/15 renewals per hour (making those numbers up for example purposes).
.
.
In case it's vanished from the boards, medley duration is:
120s base
+3s per INFluence bonus
+2s per ML:Telepathy rank
+1s per LOGic bonus
+4s per level 1-25
+3s per level 26-50
+2s per level 51-75
+1s per level >=76
So I went with fully singled in both kinds of Lore to begin with:
- EL:Air from the start (doesn't really do much for you until you get 1008/Banshee's Wail, or in the late teens (if you really can't resist the flares) for Sonic Weapon); and
- ML:Telepathy until the mid-20s.
The Telepathy will extend your medley and save you a ton of mana, and let me tell you if you don't think there's a difference between a medley duration of 3:20 and (at 20th level, with 22 ranks/44s of Telepathy) of 4:04, it is a huge difference. :)
At 3:20 duration [200 seconds], you renew eighteen (18) times in an hour.
At 4:04 duration [244 seconds], you renew just under fifteen (15) times in an hour.
Now, when your medley is only costing you a handful of mana, it's not so bad... when your renewal is 26 (or more; I think the last time I played melee my Bard's medley was in the mid-30s to renew) every little bit helps. Granted, your renewal will get longer--I think mine is up in the 7:30-ish range/450s, or renew only eight (8) times per hour--but again, if someone else does not have those Lore ranks and they're renewing 10 times in an hour, right there I'm saving
50+ mana
== one pulse on a Node
== 2+ additional casts of Disruption/1030 (and also my Disruption does not have to be re-started, which has a higher mana cost, as often)
== 10 additional Lullabye/1005
== 6 extra Banshee's Wail/1008
Lots and lots of really good reasons to have your medley renewal be as long as possible. I took an Elf [high racial bonus] with a 90+ CHArisma (in GS3; renamed to INFluence in GS4) when most Bards were tanking the stat because it grew so fast. Lullabye was essentially totally reliable after about ninth (9th) level or so. But that high CHArisma/INFluence added more than a minute to my medley duration, so instead of (for example) a 3:00 duration/20 renewals per hour I had a 4:00 duration/15 renewals per hour (making those numbers up for example purposes).
.
.
In case it's vanished from the boards, medley duration is:
120s base
+3s per INFluence bonus
+2s per ML:Telepathy rank
+1s per LOGic bonus
+4s per level 1-25
+3s per level 26-50
+2s per level 51-75
+1s per level >=76
>In terms of training though, what is the best path to pursue? I hope to (eventually) be using all my sonic gear (if that is the best path) and crushing the skulls of creatures left and right.
I know Krakii talked about the magic heavy path for bards, which is an option, but it is hardly the only option. With bards they have many options in how they decide to train, so the answer to your question all depends on what you want to do. Do you want to use polearms? Do you want to use a bow? Is sword and board more your style? Do you want to go TWC and be a human lawnmower? Or do you want to eventually be a bard who uses 1030 to hunt? All are valid training paths, but their builds will vary by quite a bit.
You did mention wanting to use sonic gear, and that definitely is a very valid method. My character has used a sonic weapon and armor for a very long time, and has used shield/weapon/armor in the near and post cap environment. Some bards will stick with physical weapons, because they have some really nice gear, or just do not wish to deal with the potential loss of their weapon/shield/armor due to an unlucky stun or dispel. I personally have found the advantages of all sonic gear far outweigh those disadvantages.
If you did want to go the sword and board method, the base training plan I'd recommend would be: 2x OHE, 1x CM, Shield, Armor, PT, Spells, HP, 0.75x Dodge. I would suggest working in MOC at 0.5x if you can afford it, as MSTRIKE is very beneficial to a sword and board bard. Those are your core things to train in, and from there you can work in your Lores, Climbing/Swimming, and other Tertiary skills. As a low level and physical bard, ML:Telepathy will be more helpful, in both extending the renewal time of your songs, and increases the AS bonus Kai's Song provides. EL:Air and ML:Manipulation both are something you should work in, with EL:A something you eventually want to get to 1x for when you start using sonics at higher levels. If TPs are tight you can always hold off on it for now and pick them up later. For ML:M, 15 ranks is good to have once you learn 1030 so you can sing the focused version when required. However if you are not planning on using 1030 extensively, then you do not have to go beyond 15 ranks, nor hurry to them until you are near learning 1030. I personally used 1030 when dealing with a swarm of creatures, as it worked well in combination with open Mstriking.
Regarding spell training, I would suggest at around 1010/1011 you go back and pick up some more Minor Elemental spells. 406, 410, or 414 are all good places to stop. Part of the reason for this is that as a lower level bard you are not going to be able to sing all the songs you learn due to your small mana pool. By taking several levels off from learning new songs and picking up some elemental spells (which you would cast before going hunting) it will give you a larger mana pool when you get back to learning some of the higher mana cost bard songs. Some will say it's easy enough to get 401/406/414 from others, but being able to cast them yourself is handy. Having 410 when hunting creatures that swarm will also be very useful.
That is just my few cents on bard training. If you have more questions, especially for a sword and board build, then keeping asking them and we'll see about answering.
-Kilthal
"He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone."
"For all that this may cause Hell to freeze over, I agree with Kilthal." -Siwas
I know Krakii talked about the magic heavy path for bards, which is an option, but it is hardly the only option. With bards they have many options in how they decide to train, so the answer to your question all depends on what you want to do. Do you want to use polearms? Do you want to use a bow? Is sword and board more your style? Do you want to go TWC and be a human lawnmower? Or do you want to eventually be a bard who uses 1030 to hunt? All are valid training paths, but their builds will vary by quite a bit.
You did mention wanting to use sonic gear, and that definitely is a very valid method. My character has used a sonic weapon and armor for a very long time, and has used shield/weapon/armor in the near and post cap environment. Some bards will stick with physical weapons, because they have some really nice gear, or just do not wish to deal with the potential loss of their weapon/shield/armor due to an unlucky stun or dispel. I personally have found the advantages of all sonic gear far outweigh those disadvantages.
If you did want to go the sword and board method, the base training plan I'd recommend would be: 2x OHE, 1x CM, Shield, Armor, PT, Spells, HP, 0.75x Dodge. I would suggest working in MOC at 0.5x if you can afford it, as MSTRIKE is very beneficial to a sword and board bard. Those are your core things to train in, and from there you can work in your Lores, Climbing/Swimming, and other Tertiary skills. As a low level and physical bard, ML:Telepathy will be more helpful, in both extending the renewal time of your songs, and increases the AS bonus Kai's Song provides. EL:Air and ML:Manipulation both are something you should work in, with EL:A something you eventually want to get to 1x for when you start using sonics at higher levels. If TPs are tight you can always hold off on it for now and pick them up later. For ML:M, 15 ranks is good to have once you learn 1030 so you can sing the focused version when required. However if you are not planning on using 1030 extensively, then you do not have to go beyond 15 ranks, nor hurry to them until you are near learning 1030. I personally used 1030 when dealing with a swarm of creatures, as it worked well in combination with open Mstriking.
Regarding spell training, I would suggest at around 1010/1011 you go back and pick up some more Minor Elemental spells. 406, 410, or 414 are all good places to stop. Part of the reason for this is that as a lower level bard you are not going to be able to sing all the songs you learn due to your small mana pool. By taking several levels off from learning new songs and picking up some elemental spells (which you would cast before going hunting) it will give you a larger mana pool when you get back to learning some of the higher mana cost bard songs. Some will say it's easy enough to get 401/406/414 from others, but being able to cast them yourself is handy. Having 410 when hunting creatures that swarm will also be very useful.
That is just my few cents on bard training. If you have more questions, especially for a sword and board build, then keeping asking them and we'll see about answering.
-Kilthal
"He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone."
"For all that this may cause Hell to freeze over, I agree with Kilthal." -Siwas
Thank you. I appreciate all the feedback and it definitely helps to hear a couple different views. As with most professions it's difficult to juggle everything that I WANT to train with the limited number of points I have available. It's good to hear the different opinions and be able to put together something that isn't completely off course and a path that will lead me in the correct direction.
I think what I'm ultimately going to have to do is try out a couple different builds (thank you FIXSKILLS) and decide which I enjoy the best. I'll probably stick with the sword and board route at first just because it's more like something I know and but I do want to test out the caster method at some point as well and see which one I enjoy the most.
Bards seem like a very fun profession and I look forward to learning more about them as I go and experiencing the fun!
-X
I think what I'm ultimately going to have to do is try out a couple different builds (thank you FIXSKILLS) and decide which I enjoy the best. I'll probably stick with the sword and board route at first just because it's more like something I know and but I do want to test out the caster method at some point as well and see which one I enjoy the most.
Bards seem like a very fun profession and I look forward to learning more about them as I go and experiencing the fun!
-X
"Some bards will stick with physical weapons, because they have some really nice gear, or just do not wish to deal with the potential loss of their weapon/shield/armor due to an unlucky stun or dispel. I personally have found the advantages of all sonic gear far outweigh those disadvantages." -- Kilthal
This actually reminded me of something else, and it ties back to ML:Telepathy and high INFluence stat bonuses, as well. :)
You are only vulnerable to losing Sonic Equipment Songs... when they renew (and you are stunned or otherwise unable to respond to the need for consciousness). So that means (getting back to my example) that the bards:
- with a 3:00 renewal cycle have 20 different times they can lose gear in an hour;
- with a 4:00 renewal cycle have only 15 times they can lose in that same time;
- once you get up a bit (late-40s) and have a 7:33 renewal and are renewing not even 8 times per hour...
...As you can see, the longer the renewal, the safer you are from the danger of vulnerability due to lost gear Songs.
.
.
.
.
Turn it around the other way, too: using Sonic Equipment means you have stellar gear for cheap price! (NO silvers, only mana.)
+35 armor that's massively under-encumbering? Goes for a pretty penny in the market...
+35 shield that defends as Large/Tower, but (with enough EL:Air ranks) encumbers as Medium or even Small? Probably even more...
+35 weapon with (really good!) double flares? Would you even use it in OTF where gear droppage happens?
You don't have ANY of those worries--not about cost, not about loss to droppage--because the equipment is free for the duration of the Song. :)
This actually reminded me of something else, and it ties back to ML:Telepathy and high INFluence stat bonuses, as well. :)
You are only vulnerable to losing Sonic Equipment Songs... when they renew (and you are stunned or otherwise unable to respond to the need for consciousness). So that means (getting back to my example) that the bards:
- with a 3:00 renewal cycle have 20 different times they can lose gear in an hour;
- with a 4:00 renewal cycle have only 15 times they can lose in that same time;
- once you get up a bit (late-40s) and have a 7:33 renewal and are renewing not even 8 times per hour...
...As you can see, the longer the renewal, the safer you are from the danger of vulnerability due to lost gear Songs.
.
.
.
.
Turn it around the other way, too: using Sonic Equipment means you have stellar gear for cheap price! (NO silvers, only mana.)
+35 armor that's massively under-encumbering? Goes for a pretty penny in the market...
+35 shield that defends as Large/Tower, but (with enough EL:Air ranks) encumbers as Medium or even Small? Probably even more...
+35 weapon with (really good!) double flares? Would you even use it in OTF where gear droppage happens?
You don't have ANY of those worries--not about cost, not about loss to droppage--because the equipment is free for the duration of the Song. :)
Agreed Krakii. I was just saying in part why some people do not go all sonic gear. I am not one of them, as I use a sonic shield/weapon/armor when hunting. Of course having a 10 minute renewal cycle definitely helps in that regards (one of the benefits of being an Elven Bard with 75 ranks of Telepathy).
-Kilthal
"He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone."
"For all that this may cause Hell to freeze over, I agree with Kilthal." -Siwas
-Kilthal
"He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone."
"For all that this may cause Hell to freeze over, I agree with Kilthal." -Siwas
