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Hello All,
As the subject says I'm back after a few years off. I have a 41 rogue that is currently OHE/TWC. Before I left I had toyed with the idea of sniping, but never actually did it. So honest opinions from all... which is better for hunting? OHE/Board? OHE/TWC? Sniping? I do want to be able to hunt at or slightly above level and be able to pick my own boxes. Thoughts?
Archery (not necessarily sniping) is the most power of the physical combats. This is due primarily to short RT (3 seconds) which competes with spell casting (though not soft rt). After archery, any sort of ambushing combat will be effective. Basically, don't pick polearms or hurling and you're good to go.
Honestly, it comes down to how you prefer to play and what sacrifices you're willing to make. If you're a locksmith, either your hunting skills or your picking skills will suffer with OHE, but a sniper or open archer won't have to sacrifice much at all even when 3x in all picking skills.
OHE/Shield
Pros: able to defend better against bolt/ranged attacks, able to hunt more types of critters then archers
Cons: any attack that doesn't use Silent strike will pull you from hiding, only one attack at a time, most critters require more set-up, fewer TP's for non-combat skills
OHE/TWC
Pros: swings twice every attack, able to hunt more types of critters then archers, swinging two flaring weapons at a time rocks (esp if you learn MSTRIKE), AMBUSHES more likely to succeed then OHE/shield due to extra weapon, can be almost as fast as open archery depending on race & weapon choice
Cons: any attack that doesn't use Silent strike will pull you from hiding, will require more set-up (esp if using smaller weapons like daggers), lower DS verse bolt/ranged attacks
Sniping
Pros: several stats/skills needed also used for locksmithing, able to aim for the eye of any critter with no set-up, rarely have to leave the shadows, able to 3x in locksmithing skills without sacrificing hunting skills, encumbrance doesn't increase your RT
Cons: smaller races face potentially huge RTs (gnome with a longbow= not a good idea), blessed arrows are a huge pain in the arse to mess with, golems, non-corp undead, and any other critter that doesn't crit or resists puncture damage is unhuntable, swarms or invasions will be a challenge
Open Archery
Pros: potentially the fastest of the four, easier to 3x in lockpicking skills without sacrificing hunting skills
Cons: never or rarely in the shadows, anything that isn't killed or stunned in the first couple attacks will have it's way with you, golems, non-corp undead, and any other critter that doesn't crit or resists puncture damage is unhuntable, blessed arrows are a huge pain in the arse to mess with
In my personal opinion, open archery should probably be left to professions that are better at taking hits (warriors) or have spells that allow them to cope with swarms better (rangers & wizards). With the CMANs we have that help with sniping (DIVERT, VANISH, Shadow Mastery) and the ease with which rogues can stay in the shadows, the shorter RT of open archers doesn't offer much tactical advantage (most that promote it like it because they can fry in 3 minutes instead of ten). Also, if you AIM your shots or play a smaller race (halfling or gnome), you're NOT going to have that awesome 3 second RT. In short, you might fire your bow faster, but the trade-off is unreliable shots and drastically reduced defenses (esp after picking up a couple boxes, encumbrance might not increase an archers RT, but it does reduce our DS).
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
OHE/Shield
Pros: able to defend better against bolt/ranged attacks, able to hunt more types of critters then archers
Cons: any attack that doesn't use Silent strike will pull you from hiding, only one attack at a time, most critters require more set-up, fewer TP's for non-combat skills
OHE/TWC
Pros: swings twice every attack, able to hunt more types of critters then archers, swinging two flaring weapons at a time rocks (esp if you learn MSTRIKE), AMBUSHES more likely to succeed then OHE/shield due to extra weapon, can be almost as fast as open archery depending on race & weapon choice
Cons: any attack that doesn't use Silent strike will pull you from hiding, will require more set-up (esp if using smaller weapons like daggers), lower DS verse bolt/ranged attacks
Sniping
Pros: several stats/skills needed also used for locksmithing, able to aim for the eye of any critter with no set-up, rarely have to leave the shadows, able to 3x in locksmithing skills without sacrificing hunting skills, encumbrance doesn't increase your RT
Cons: smaller races face potentially huge RTs (gnome with a longbow= not a good idea), blessed arrows are a huge pain in the arse to mess with, golems, non-corp undead, and any other critter that doesn't crit or resists puncture damage is unhuntable, swarms or invasions will be a challenge
Open Archery
Pros: potentially the fastest of the four, easier to 3x in lockpicking skills without sacrificing hunting skills
Cons: never or rarely in the shadows, anything that isn't killed or stunned in the first couple attacks will have it's way with you, golems, non-corp undead, and any other critter that doesn't crit or resists puncture damage is unhuntable, blessed arrows are a huge pain in the arse to mess with
In my personal opinion, open archery should probably be left to professions that are better at taking hits (warriors) or have spells that allow them to cope with swarms better (rangers & wizards). With the CMANs we have that help with sniping (DIVERT, VANISH, Shadow Mastery) and the ease with which rogues can stay in the shadows, the shorter RT of open archers doesn't offer much tactical advantage (most that promote it like it because they can fry in 3 minutes instead of ten). Also, if you AIM your shots or play a smaller race (halfling or gnome), you're NOT going to have that awesome 3 second RT. In short, you might fire your bow faster, but the trade-off is unreliable shots and drastically reduced defenses (esp after picking up a couple boxes, encumbrance might not increase an archers RT, but it does reduce our DS).
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Lets break down some training costs. I'll leave out some things just because those will be the same across the board.
Edged/shield:
6/2 2x edged
4/0 1x shield
4/4 1x cman
0/1 1x perception: You want about 50 perception early but after that you can let it slide
3/3 2x stalk/hide
2/1 1x ambush
Total 19/11
TWC:
6/2 2x edged
2/2 1x twc
4/4 1x cman
0/1 1x perception
3/3 2x stalk/hide
2/1 1x ambush
Total 17/13
Sniper:
9/3 2x ranged
0/3 2x perception
3/3 2x stalk/hude
2/1 1x ambush
Totals 14/10
Open ranged:
9/3 2x ranged
0/3 2x perception
2/1 1x ambush
Totals 11/7
As you can see, ranged is certainly cheaper then using edged and mostly because of the cost of combat maneuvers. Open ranged is of course also cheaper then sniping. I also went with 1x in ambush when I know that most would say that you need 2x ambush. Having 2x in ambush would certainly make any of the builds better and is easily fit in but it isn't something you need.
I don't exactly agree with everything Starchitin posted and he left some things out.
Sword/board rogues now have access to shield maneuvers which can be used to further increase their defenses and not just against physical things. Shield focus improves your CvA and deflect the elements can negate damage from flares.
>>Cons: any attack that doesn't use Silent strike will pull you from hiding, only one attack at a time, most critters require more set-up, fewer TP's for non-combat skills
Being out of hiding for your attack just means you have to be smarter about it, there is also vanish to fall back on which is much better then silent strike when used right. I am confused by the statement of only one attack at a time, isn't that how most people do it? Creature set-up is a race perspective, if you play a short race you have to leg things before you can poke them in the head/eye regions to kill them with melee weapons, for taller races this isn't an issue so much.
>>Pros: several stats/skills needed also used for locksmithing, able to aim for the eye of any critter with no set-up, rarely have to leave the shadows, able to 3x in locksmithing skills without sacrificing hunting skills, encumbrance doesn't increase your RT
The first statement is misleading, the one skill that locksmithing and archery have in common is perception and while you'll want a lot of perception early on for detecting traps you don't need it as much later on. Dexterity is a stat that helps both archery and locksmithing, but it also helps the ambushing rogue as well, as long as they are using small weapons least nothing bigger then a short sword. It doesn't add to AS for the ambusher but it does add phantom weighting, which dexterity also does for ranged.
>>Cons: smaller races face potentially huge RTs (gnome with a longbow= not a good idea), blessed arrows are a huge pain in the arse to mess with, golems, non-corp undead, and any other critter that doesn't crit or resists puncture damage is unhuntable, swarms or invasions will be a challenge
Smaller races don't need to use longbows to be effective. I don't understand why blessed arrows seem to be a problem for people but maybe I just know too many clerics. Golems are slow stupid creatures and shouldn't be a problem for anyone, their naturally tough skin does make them a bit more difficult for archers but they should still be easy. I haven't hunted the non-corp undead in RR but in most other places they have little to no armor so while they can't be crit killed they aren't that difficult either. At cap crusaders would pose a problem with their shields and regeneration, and maybe sentries but I honestly forget what kind of ranged DS they have. Swarms are kind of difficult for most people but of course are going to be more difficult for someone not focusing on combat. Invasions aren't really meant to be handled solo and should play no consideration anyway.
>>Cons: never or rarely in the shadows, anything that isn't killed or stunned in the first couple attacks will have it's way with you, golems, non-corp undead, and any other critter that doesn't crit or resists puncture damage is unhuntable, blessed arrows are a huge pain in the arse to mess with
If I was really concerned about my ability to survive in the open as an archer I'd pick up ewave. I'd still likely avoid some of the creatures mentioned above but that is more out of laziness then fear of death.
>>In short, you might fire your bow faster, but the trade-off is unreliable shots and drastically reduced defenses
Ones ability to aim doesn't become worse by being out in the open, so how is the reliably of your shots a problem unless they aren't very reliable in the first place?
>>able to 3x in locksmithing skills without sacrificing hunting skills
Picking this statement from above again to point something out. Even as an archer you are sacrificing hunting skills to locksmith, you are spending 14/14 points a level to 3x in pick/disarm. As an archer you will spend less on your core combat skills then any other build though so you sacrifice less then they do to have 3x pick/disarm.
You don't get any round time for being encumbered with archery but as a melee rogue as long as you aren't a short race it isn't quite the issue you may think. Using a dagger ones dexterity and agility bonuses can be applied to reducing the round times of encumbrance, so you can easily leave a hunting ground carrying a lot more then you weigh in boxes.
There was a huge debate not too long ago about archery vs melee. I'll try and shorten the key points. Potentially shorter round times with archery's minimum of 3 seconds. With sniping you spend less time exposed out in the open. Depending where you hunt and the spells you wear that is a non issue, but as a sniper you also don't have to keep re-hiding to ambush things(saves time, so faster in other words), kill them all and only come out to loot. The other thing is cost, archery is cheaper to train which I already covered.
I really don't like long posts but I hope that covered everything.
Edged/shield:
6/2 2x edged
4/0 1x shield
4/4 1x cman
0/1 1x perception: You want about 50 perception early but after that you can let it slide
3/3 2x stalk/hide
2/1 1x ambush
Total 19/11
TWC:
6/2 2x edged
2/2 1x twc
4/4 1x cman
0/1 1x perception
3/3 2x stalk/hide
2/1 1x ambush
Total 17/13
Sniper:
9/3 2x ranged
0/3 2x perception
3/3 2x stalk/hude
2/1 1x ambush
Totals 14/10
Open ranged:
9/3 2x ranged
0/3 2x perception
2/1 1x ambush
Totals 11/7
As you can see, ranged is certainly cheaper then using edged and mostly because of the cost of combat maneuvers. Open ranged is of course also cheaper then sniping. I also went with 1x in ambush when I know that most would say that you need 2x ambush. Having 2x in ambush would certainly make any of the builds better and is easily fit in but it isn't something you need.
I don't exactly agree with everything Starchitin posted and he left some things out.
Sword/board rogues now have access to shield maneuvers which can be used to further increase their defenses and not just against physical things. Shield focus improves your CvA and deflect the elements can negate damage from flares.
>>Cons: any attack that doesn't use Silent strike will pull you from hiding, only one attack at a time, most critters require more set-up, fewer TP's for non-combat skills
Being out of hiding for your attack just means you have to be smarter about it, there is also vanish to fall back on which is much better then silent strike when used right. I am confused by the statement of only one attack at a time, isn't that how most people do it? Creature set-up is a race perspective, if you play a short race you have to leg things before you can poke them in the head/eye regions to kill them with melee weapons, for taller races this isn't an issue so much.
>>Pros: several stats/skills needed also used for locksmithing, able to aim for the eye of any critter with no set-up, rarely have to leave the shadows, able to 3x in locksmithing skills without sacrificing hunting skills, encumbrance doesn't increase your RT
The first statement is misleading, the one skill that locksmithing and archery have in common is perception and while you'll want a lot of perception early on for detecting traps you don't need it as much later on. Dexterity is a stat that helps both archery and locksmithing, but it also helps the ambushing rogue as well, as long as they are using small weapons least nothing bigger then a short sword. It doesn't add to AS for the ambusher but it does add phantom weighting, which dexterity also does for ranged.
>>Cons: smaller races face potentially huge RTs (gnome with a longbow= not a good idea), blessed arrows are a huge pain in the arse to mess with, golems, non-corp undead, and any other critter that doesn't crit or resists puncture damage is unhuntable, swarms or invasions will be a challenge
Smaller races don't need to use longbows to be effective. I don't understand why blessed arrows seem to be a problem for people but maybe I just know too many clerics. Golems are slow stupid creatures and shouldn't be a problem for anyone, their naturally tough skin does make them a bit more difficult for archers but they should still be easy. I haven't hunted the non-corp undead in RR but in most other places they have little to no armor so while they can't be crit killed they aren't that difficult either. At cap crusaders would pose a problem with their shields and regeneration, and maybe sentries but I honestly forget what kind of ranged DS they have. Swarms are kind of difficult for most people but of course are going to be more difficult for someone not focusing on combat. Invasions aren't really meant to be handled solo and should play no consideration anyway.
>>Cons: never or rarely in the shadows, anything that isn't killed or stunned in the first couple attacks will have it's way with you, golems, non-corp undead, and any other critter that doesn't crit or resists puncture damage is unhuntable, blessed arrows are a huge pain in the arse to mess with
If I was really concerned about my ability to survive in the open as an archer I'd pick up ewave. I'd still likely avoid some of the creatures mentioned above but that is more out of laziness then fear of death.
>>In short, you might fire your bow faster, but the trade-off is unreliable shots and drastically reduced defenses
Ones ability to aim doesn't become worse by being out in the open, so how is the reliably of your shots a problem unless they aren't very reliable in the first place?
>>able to 3x in locksmithing skills without sacrificing hunting skills
Picking this statement from above again to point something out. Even as an archer you are sacrificing hunting skills to locksmith, you are spending 14/14 points a level to 3x in pick/disarm. As an archer you will spend less on your core combat skills then any other build though so you sacrifice less then they do to have 3x pick/disarm.
You don't get any round time for being encumbered with archery but as a melee rogue as long as you aren't a short race it isn't quite the issue you may think. Using a dagger ones dexterity and agility bonuses can be applied to reducing the round times of encumbrance, so you can easily leave a hunting ground carrying a lot more then you weigh in boxes.
There was a huge debate not too long ago about archery vs melee. I'll try and shorten the key points. Potentially shorter round times with archery's minimum of 3 seconds. With sniping you spend less time exposed out in the open. Depending where you hunt and the spells you wear that is a non issue, but as a sniper you also don't have to keep re-hiding to ambush things(saves time, so faster in other words), kill them all and only come out to loot. The other thing is cost, archery is cheaper to train which I already covered.
I really don't like long posts but I hope that covered everything.
